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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 22:23   #51
JonnyBGood
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
are you seriously suggesting 3 A's instead of A*'s at GCSE is going to prevent him getting into oxbridge?
if you are then ok, i'm not going to argue the case. i don't care. when i made the comment it seemed pretty ridiculous to me. (it still does)
Don't be a tool, he explained what he meant.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 22:29   #52
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
that's great, he still didn't answer the question. if he insists on wandering down semanto-pedanto lane then he can ....ing well answer the exact point.
not whether someone can get on a lesser course with a b at gcse but if they can get on with 3 a's as opposed to 3 a*
If you posted your CV it would at least explain to those watching you your insane obsession.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 22:31   #53
JonnyBGood
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
that's great, he still didn't answer the question. if he insists on wandering down semanto-pedanto lane then he can ....ing well answer the exact point.
not whether someone can get on a lesser course with a b at gcse but if they can get on with 3 a's as opposed to 3 a*
These things are rarely either/or, at least in the British education system as far as I'm aware.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 23:05   #54
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC
If you're getting an A or B in your AS I doubt they'll even look at your GCSE biology.
I intend to get an A, but wouldn't places like oxbridge/bristol (**** imperial, I'm getting away from London ASAP.) look at my GCSEs too?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JC
For most bio-science courses at uni they are more bothered about your chemistry results than anything else (unless its something like botany or zoology)
Medicine?
Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
are you seriously suggesting 3 A's instead of A*'s at GCSE is going to prevent him getting into oxbridge?
if you are then ok, i'm not going to argue the case. i don't care. when i made the comment it seemed pretty ridiculous to me. (it still does)
Well, put yourself into the shoes of the person at Oxbridge reviewing the applications - one person with an A* at GCSE and an A at AS and another with a B at GCSE and an A at AS - which would you take? (although, I could probably justify the B if I were asked about it during an interview and put it down to stress due to my mum's breast cancer etc.)
I'm not even sure that I want to go to oxbridge yet
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 23:29   #55
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
I intend to get an A, but wouldn't places like oxbridge/bristol (**** imperial, I'm getting away from London ASAP.) look at my GCSEs too?

Medicine?
The fact you said 'biology based career' rather than just medicine meant I assumed it wasn't that but I bet you'd have more chance of getting in without biology than you would chemistry. I think I knew someone at school that applied for medicine but wasn't doing biology but I wouldn't swear on it. The start of medicine is the same as any other degree though, you go over everything you need to know from A level so that everyone is at the same level.

If are predicted an A in A level biology I would be very surprised if any university other than Oxbridge would care about your GCSE B. They'll just ask you to get an A and assume that if you do then you're fine. Oxbridge is as much about the interview as anything else. If you don't appear good in your interview no amount of A*s will get you in.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 23:33   #56
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC
The start of medicine is the same as any other degree though, you go over everything you need to know from A level so that everyone is at the same level.
My degree started with freshers week then a reading list of 40 cases, 5 text book chapters, 6 articles and an essay entitled "Recklessness is an ordinary English word. Discuss" for my tutorial 6 days later.

All animals are not equal.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 23:39   #57
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

Insert the word science or biology before degree in what I said. My point that your A level knowledge wasn't all that much use on your degree may well stand though.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 23:42   #58
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC
Insert the word science or biology before degree in what I said. My point that your A level knowledge wasn't all that much use on your degree may well stand though.
I could insert anything anywhere and other than turning you into an amusing kebab I would not have corrected your foolish presumptions.
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Unread 29 Dec 2006, 01:06   #59
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
the motivation for doing this is not to arrive at the truth but to feel good about yourself and the world around you. that isn't a good starting point when trying to determine the truth.
These sorts of attitudes aren't about determining the truth though. If you really wanted to establish the truth then there's easier ways of doing it - in my example if I really wanted to know why the guy was doing it I could go and ask him, or spy on him for a long period of time or something like that.
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the thing is that you're not, you're just ignoring information that you have, such as the knowledge that people lie a lot, altruism is often "faked" for personal gain, schadenfreude is not a myth and that people are bombarded with (capitalist?) memes such as "to succeed you must have no mercy" etc, which are not only widely accepted as being true (you'll hear them mostly from entrepreneurs) but also as morally accptable.
None of these things are "facts" though, in the sense they apply to specific scenarios. Yes, you can start to consider the balance of probabilities and perhaps you could work out statistically that most people are twats. But that provides us no informaiton about this particular case because each individual is different and you don't have enough information to be certain either way. Since you're in a position of doubt anyway, you might as well assume the best unless there is good reason not to.

A friend of mine always get very angry (to the point of going bright red for up to half an hour) in social scenarios where he thinks someone has mocked him, or something along those lines. I have no problem with him adopting that attitude if he ever did anything but as he doesn't (because he's a pussy) what's the point?

Another example I heard a psychologist give was driving somewhere (e.g. a cinema). A neurotic/depressed person will worry / dwell on the fact that there won't be any parking spaces, continually repeating "I bet there won't be any spaces" etc and then thinking about the consequences of that (they might miss the movie, they'll have to walk longer, etc). By the time they get to the cinema they're much more miserable. So he advised taking the opposite extreme - imagining you're guaranteed a perfect spot, given to you because you're the most awesome person in the universe, your own special spot which of course you might let someone else use because you're such a benevolent fellow.

Now, once again - neither the neurotic or the false optimist is correct but that's not the point. We're not actually trying to "predict" how often that lot has spaces, and if we were interested in that question there are more scientific ways to answer it (we could easily undertake a utilisation study over the course of one weekend for example). So this isn't an exercise in "truth" seeking.

Now, in this sort of scenario I would say the "healthiest" way to be would be to not care one way or the other and only think about parking when it's practical to do so. But if you are going to dwell on it anyway you may as well consider some ludicrously optimistic scenario than choosing to be miserable.
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i can easily imagine getting somekind of kick out of ....ing you off with my engine revving. maybe you parked in a space i wanted to use for instance.
Of course you can imagine that, it's easy. But while you have no real evidence (as opposed to dubious generalisations) for this situation I see no reason to imagine it (unless it brings practical benefit). Even if you're determined to try and consider these questions by considering the average human being then I'd note that even in countries with high crime rates the number of people actually actively engaged in assaulting each other is absolutley tiny.
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it's not like you need to drop any kind of skeptical guard to evo psych to believe this kind of thing, just accept you're not an anomaly... people really are as morally reprehensible as you (not you personally).
Maybe this is the point but I can't imagine having enough energy to want to annoy my neighbours through anything like that. I consider myself fairly morally reprehensible but I barely consider other people's existence, let alone waste time on trying to actively piss them off. The times I have been selfish (e.g. playing music too loudly for that time of night) it's been because I had forgotten what time it was or just not thought about it. Never attribute to malice what you can blame on stupidity or absent mindedness, etc.
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the fact is, that these (relatively) normal people, time and time again are shown to be malevolent ....s. not only that, but most of them didn't even think they were... you don't go onto a show watched by millions to reveal how horrible you are, it's just that we're so used to hiding our "true intentions" we rarely even bother to question them. most of it isn't even second nature. it's innate.
I've not watched the program so I'll bow to your expertise. However, from what I understand the people chosen weren't exactly representative in terms of the mix being engineered to engender an element of conflict. Besides, it's hardly a representation of the real-world is it? If I was under scrutiny for any period of time with my personal freedoms severely curtailed I'd go barking mad.

In certain scenarios people can act very poorly (or just differently) but I'm not sure that's particularly interesting. To use an example : T&F is one of the most annoyingly affable people I have encountered. You will not find much more of an obvious example of a "nice guy", I don't think. Yet put him in a football match and he becomes an adrenaline fuelled nazi intent on persuing total victory at any cost. Does that matter? Is that his "real true nature" coming out. Well, maybe but who cares? If it bothered me I'd simply not play football with him.

Similarly I consider myself more libertarian than most but if I worked as a prison guard I'd probably be sadistically assaulting prisoners for the pettiest of infractions. But since I don't work as a prison guard this is unlikely to become much of a problem. On a more mundane level I suspect if I was forced to share a room with someone now I would be enormously difficult to live with. But that's OK, because I don't have to.

People can act utterly horribly to each other and they often do given the chance (or the incentive), yes. But one of the aims of public policy is to ensure that people have no or as little as possible reason to do so and to try to resolve problems which might lead to anti-social behaviour. I suspect the amount of violence in a prison (for example) is correlated to how overcrowded it is, or how well structured activities are, etc. The overall average "malevolence" of inmates may stay more or less static but that doesn't mean we're powerless to reduce prison assaults by considering the factors which contribute to the problem.

You can argue that capitalism has set us all on each other but I don't think that's true in any meaningful sense (outside of a rhetorical standpoint). Yes, I am in theory "competing" with millions of other workers every single day, but in practical terms unless I am applying for a new job, 99% of my interactions in daily life are going to be in the co-operative spirit.

Overall I would say that one does not have to compromise one's world view (or your commitment to truth) to adopt a more positive attitude generally. As this is something we do have at least partially under our control and it's fairly obviously does have a knock on effect of things like moods etc the obvious course of action would be adopt the one with the most beneficial effect on our lives. So yeah, go round thinking the worst of people if you like, but if the reward is only further misery I'll give it a miss.

Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will, etc...
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Unread 29 Dec 2006, 01:41   #60
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

youd still be an asshole though
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Unread 29 Dec 2006, 02:19   #61
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

Realistically assholes are the most interesting sort of people. Not being a hypocritical dick is just dull.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 14:27   #62
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Smile Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

The small event

Getting overly upset to the point of 'emo' that my friends weren't going to visit me at my new Uni because they didn't like the town I was studying in at the time (Leicester).



The Immediate aftermath

I decided if they didn't have time to come see me that they weren't very good friends and I tried to erase them from my life. Amongst many things I was very petty and even updated my Myspace profile, and in the process deleted all my comments, reworded my introduction page and changed the song to something a bit more emo.


The medium term aftermath

The next day I got a message from a girl who liked my myspace profile (and song) and thought i was interesting. i later found that if i had not updated my profile it would have been lower down the list of search results (as she clicked the sort by 'recently updated' button) and she would have probably never seen my profile.



The long term aftermath

We met to watch the UEFA cup final in 2005, ended up walking the town talking about everything till 4am, eventually with our falling in love. 2 years later we're living together in Lancashire.


How would things have been different?

After my Masters I had been offered a job in New Mexico, USA and had absolutely no desire to stay in England. When I flipped out over my friends not visiting I changed my profile, which put it to the top of the recently edited users list, which made her see my profile, contact me, us meeting, us falling in love, and my deciding to stay in england with her.


Would i take the other road?

No. I am 110% happy with how things turned out.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 19:02   #63
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

I don't think it's a realistic standpoint to assume that people's actions are caused by single items/thoughts/feelings.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 19:16   #64
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

I chose Business as an A Level, thinking about it, all my woes are rooted in that one horrific choice.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 19:35   #65
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i'm not so sure there are easier ways of determining the "truth". it would seem rather foolish for instance to assume that the guy would just drop all pretenses and offer you the truth simply because you confront him
It depends. If I was a scary looking guy then I can imagine he would lie, but most of the time if he was a complete git and wasn't scared by me then he'd probably say something along the lines of "What the **** business is it of yours?". If of course he was a nice guy then you could probably tell quite quickly (a lot of lies seem to be easy to see through).

Of course, this doesn't change my point that it doesn't really matter what the truth is, unless you're going to do something about it. If people were the sort to assume the worst and then go out there and rip the guys head off then I'd see the point (although obviously would still think it's not an optimial strategy for modern life).
Quote:
i don't "decide" to get angry, my anger isn't a wilful response, it's simply an analysis of the situation, "i'm being shitted on" which i deem to be accurate, followed by cortisol and adrenaline or whatever being dumped into my face.
No, maybe not - but on each occassion you do have control over how you want to respond. I used to get very embarrassed / angry by randomverbal abuse (as someone who has long black hair, I hear the hilarious witticism 'Oi Marilyn Manson!' on a semi-regular basis). The rest of my day was spent fantasising about a series of death-wish style revenge fantasies. Then I realised it wasn't actually doing me any good and therefore I either :

i) Had to become someone likely to put death-wish revenge fantasies into action
ii) Had to learn to forget about it.

And so over time, I stopped being as bitter. Now in a lot of cases I find it genuinely amusing. Anger can be useful, but a lot of the time it's not very productive. And you do have a choice over your anger, albeit in the longer term.
Quote:
healthiest in terms of being happier, yes i'd agree. but you're also more likely to end up not getting a parking space (i.e. you probably wouldn't bother getting there early).
That's a different argument. Where there's a practical benefit to being negative then sure, go for it. But if you've already set out then being additionally negative isn't going to help in most cases. And if you're going to view the thing in a negative sense (i.e. "I know I'm not going to get a parking space") then there's no reason why that can't be turned positive ("But it's really cool to go for a drive and see this beautiful city I live in").

My point is that most negativity I see in other people's behaviour is utterly useless and does actually seem to damage them. Newspapers and purveyors of bad politics are particularly guilty of promoting this sort of thinking. Anger is really only useful if it's chanelled, rather than just stoked up for no real reason.
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i'm not sure what you mean here, are you suggesting that malevolent behaviour (or indeed intent) is limited to physical assault?
Well, partially. I think the point is, it's easy to say things like "Most people are malevolent" but what evidence is there for that?

Quote:
most people however don't realise how ....ing evil they're being.
Yes, people can be petty, selfish and disloyal...but so what? Yeah, it's not wonderful that a majority of people "fail" something like the Milgram Experiment (to use a similar sort of example) but I'm not really sure I'd view that as malevolence. People have a lot of stuff going on in their lives, and might be carrying around a lot of pain and so forth. And given the sort of society we're in, what do you expect from them?

To use a different (extreme) example : I wouldn't say most people who collaborated with the fascists in occupied Europe in WW2 were "evil". They had a variety of motivations of course, but many of these were understandable (they were scared, they didn't understand the gravity of the situation, they were ignorant politically, etc). Now, this doesn't mean that I'd hesitate to put a bullet through their heads given the opportunity - but it does mean I wouldn't waste a lot of mental energy hating them.

There are people who'd justify the label of "evil" but even then they do seem to be mentally ill in some fashion. Getting overly enraged at such people should be left to the tabloid press. That doesn't rule-out practical action of course.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 19:38   #66
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

I've started taken to skipping Horn's post, especially when he decideds to do lots of quoting, it always seems he has lots to say, but never really gets anywhere.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 20:19   #67
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Yes, people can be petty, selfish and disloyal...but so what? Yeah, it's not wonderful that a majority of people "fail" something like the Milgram Experiment (to use a similar sort of example) but I'm not really sure I'd view that as malevolence. People have a lot of stuff going on in their lives, and might be carrying around a lot of pain and so forth. And given the sort of society we're in, what do you expect from them?
The Milgram Experiment was mainly to see how far people will go when faced with authority figures giving them commands they disagreed with, actually.

I didn't just pick that out to try and correct you, but it's a fascinating experiment (most Social Psychology is, in my opinion) and it isn't really supposed to be about finding out how nasty people could be. I don't want to get drawn into this discussion with horn as the "breaking apart each paragraph and replyign to it in turn" gathers a kind of multiplier effect and we forget where we started.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 20:42   #68
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

It's all about having an outrageous degree of self-control really!
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 20:48   #69
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
It's all about having an outrageous degree of self-control really!
What, resisting the urge to reply to all of horn's posts?
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 20:59   #70
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
The Milgram Experiment was mainly to see how far people will go when faced with authority figures giving them commands they disagreed with, actually.
I know, I've quoted the experiment before on these forums. What I was saying is that you might find it disappointing people "fail" the Milgram experiment (i.e. they continued to 'torture' the subject, merely after verbal commands) it doesn't mean people are malevolent. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 21:50   #71
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

Didn't they do this on an episode of Scrubs with Heather Graham?


I believe eventually they concluded that people were essentially good.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 21:56   #72
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
yeah but then they did a christmas special where they admitted to having only made the show for money!!!!!
Rational self-interest is essentially good dude.



PS I'm really disliking you right now for making me read that ****ing complete load of bollocks again horn
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 22:24   #73
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
do you think anyone actually cares that you don't read my posts?


p.s. the "lots of quoting", isn't the problem, it's a good way to make sure points are clear in what they are in reply to.

I don't either, when you go into breaking-up-posts-into-individual-quotes mode. I'm sure I'm not the only one. Breaking up different people's quotes is fine. Breaking their points down into one or two quotes is fine. But doing them paragraph by paragraph by paragraph isn't very fluid or clear.

You should be able to summarise and counter the argument without resorting to breaking it down piece by piece. Anything more than that is just waffling.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 22:26   #74
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

Maybe he's deconstructing his argument?
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 22:32   #75
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Maybe he's deconstructing his argument?
You should be able to do it without breaking down each paragraph individually. Most of Dante's points overlap each other, so it's entirely possible.

Or quite simply quote two paragraphs of Dante, then *shock horror* write two of your own! It flows much better.

Paragraphs are much neater and nicer
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 22:40   #76
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

I normally assume when someone attacks each sentence, more or less, they're trying to fatigue their opponent into submission. I also assume they're extremely pedantic.

And it's a pain in the arse to read posts like that.
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Unread 4 Jan 2007, 17:36   #77
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
dante [...] doesn't always reply to every point.
Appropriately, Tomkat once criticised me for this!
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Unread 4 Jan 2007, 17:38   #78
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

The problem with quote/reply/quote/reply style posts is that you can't really get drawn into what someone is saying because every time you read a few sentences you have to read something someone else said (that you've probably already read but need to read again just to be sure of exactly what the replier is replying to) and then go back to what the poster is saying. It disturbs 'flow' imo.

It could be decent from an argument perspective, but it isn't as much fun to read.
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Unread 4 Jan 2007, 17:51   #79
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

I always felt the quote/reply and descend style of posting was cool between the individuals debating but pretty shit for the others reading. Not really caring if other people are alive or caught in some souped up form of limbo where an excessive amount of kung fu fighting occurs I never felt bad for using it.
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Unread 4 Jan 2007, 20:44   #80
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
The problem with quote/reply/quote/reply style posts is horn
Fixed
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Unread 4 Jan 2007, 23:27   #81
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
The problem with quote/reply/quote/reply style posts is that you can't really get drawn into what someone is saying because every time you read a few sentences you have to read something someone else said (that you've probably already read but need to read again just to be sure of exactly what the replier is replying to) and then go back to what the poster is saying. It disturbs 'flow' imo.

It could be decent from an argument perspective, but it isn't as much fun to read.
Think of it as psychodellic argument.
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Unread 4 Jan 2007, 23:49   #82
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Re: Hypothesize : The tiniest event that could have changed your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Fixed
I'll fix you
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