Palestinian presidential elections

[JonnyBGood]

It appears that Mahmoud Abbas has been elected as the president of the Palestinian National Authority after receiving approximately 66% of the vote according to initial exit polls. There appeals to be a mild consensus among Palestinian extremist groups with even Hamas stating that they will deal with the new president. Hopefully the Israelis will be forced to deal with him and some sort of genuine peace-plan can be formulated although I am not going to get my hopes up just yet. Does anyone feel that this will prompt any substantial changes in the Israel/Palestine situation or will Mahmoud Abbas be merely one name instead of another?

[Sarina_Joy]

Or they will just confine him to his compound for 4 years then claim that he has done nothing for four years and kill him

Its the way of the future.

[G.K Zhukov]

Its all up to U.S/Israel anyways. If Abbas expects a peace-settlement witch is crappy, he will get demoted by the palestinian public.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

Its all up to U.S/Israel anyways. If Abbas expects a peace-settlement witch is crappy, he will get demoted by the palestinian public.

What exactly are the minimum requirements you think the Palestinians should demand?

[Zar]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

What exactly are the minimum requirements you think the Palestinians should demand?

Sorry im just too tempted:

The whole of Israel

[JonnyBGood]

REALISTICALLY.

[G.K Zhukov]

1967 borders. Rights of return for refugees to the area where they was displaced from, weather this is inside or outside the -67 borders. Equal rights for everyone living in the two states, regardless of ethnicity/religion/sex/military service done or not. A fully soverign state.

If the palestinaians doesnt get 1967 borders, but if they only get Gaza +60-70% of the West Bank and not control over sea, borders and airspace, it will be little less than a bantustan (refering to the bantustan states the South-African state made to look like the blacks had states themselfs).

But I suspect they will do like Sarina wrote in her first post.

[G.K Zhukov]

So whats your "realistic" option JBG?

[Sarina_Joy]

To accept whatever Israel deigns to give to them and be bloody grateful.

Probably realisitic.

[JonnyBGood]

Pretty similar to what you outlined. Of course I wouldn't advise walking in with that as the list of demands. All you need is the first few steps to be made so that the Israeli government becomes used to the idea of conceding various things through political negotiation. So if Mahmoud Abbas accepts less after the first round of peacetalks I won't be out on the streets howling for his resignation.

[G.K Zhukov]

The Israeli peace deal with Egypt, who included the return of Sinai, was forced upon Israel by their U.S masters. As Israel cannot survive without US support, its the only the U.S who can force Israel into doing things that Israel itsself wont.

And JBG, I do think Abbas is a bit more afraid for Hamas than you

[Marilyn Manson]

The whole basis for any optimism can only be based on whether on or not we think Abu Mazen will be likely to seriously challenge the power of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the other groups. Arafat was either unwilling or unable to do this. These groups will not hold Mazen in any special degree of reverence, as they did to some extent with Arafat. In fact, it's going to be tremendously difficult for him to make any impact on them.

The only way any progress will be made is if the moderate Palestinians, like Abbas, have the courage to stick their heads above the rafters and call Hamas et al the self-defeating, organised ****ocracies that they are in relation to this whole issue. There will then have to be a total break between them and the PA. That is not going to be an easy thing for any Palestinian leader to do, given the huge risks involved in such a move. Until then, nothing will change.

Unquestionably, though, The US and Israel have someone they can start to relate to and work in Abbas - at least for the moment - which they didn't have with Arafat.

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

The only way any progress will be made is if the moderate Palestinians, like Abbas, have the courage to stick their heads above the rafters and call Hamas et al the self-defeating, organised ****ocracies that they are in relation to this whole issue. There will then have to be a total break between them and the PA. That is not going to be an easy thing for any Palestinian leader to do, given the huge risks involved in such a move. Until then, nothing will change.

Abbas went to some lengths to cozy up to them during the "campaign" however. :/

[Marilyn Manson]

Tbh, I don't like Abbas already. He gives me the distinct (Although this is based on nothing more than superficialities.) impression of being characterless, grey, mediocre, and generally spineless. All of which are awful traits for a leader of the PA to have atm.

[Stew]

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

He gives me the distinct (Although this is based on nothing more than superficialities.) impression of being characterless, grey, mediocre, and generally spineless. All of which are awful traits for a leader of the PA to have atm.

Don't bring Syn_Sid into this, this is GD, not PD fs.

[jerome]

That would be almost amusing if Sid was anything but that description.

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally Posted by Tactitus

Abbas went to some lengths to cozy up to them during the "campaign" however. :/

Its legal to take up arms to resist an occupation. Abbas isnt elected by the palestinan people to police them for Israel, in case your in any doubt, mr. Quisling.

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

The whole basis for any optimism can only be based on whether on or not we think Abu Mazen will be likely to seriously challenge the power of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the other groups. Arafat was either unwilling or unable to do this. These groups will not hold Mazen in any special degree of reverence, as they did to some extent with Arafat. In fact, it's going to be tremendously difficult for him to make any impact on them.

The only way any progress will be made is if the moderate Palestinians, like Abbas, have the courage to stick their heads above the rafters and call Hamas et al the self-defeating, organised ****ocracies that they are in relation to this whole issue. There will then have to be a total break between them and the PA. That is not going to be an easy thing for any Palestinian leader to do, given the huge risks involved in such a move. Until then, nothing will change.

Unquestionably, though, The US and Israel have someone they can start to relate to and work in Abbas - at least for the moment - which they didn't have with Arafat.

So you belived in the Israeli Campaing of blaiming everything on Arafat, even if he was sourounded by Israeli tanks in his house in Ramallah?
Arafat is a saint by any standard compared to Ariel Sharon. But I guess you dont think about that.

[Phang]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

Arafat is a saint by any standard compared to Ariel Sharon.

No. Sharon is no better or worse than Arafat was - both pandered to militant, quasi-fascist factions within their countries for a power base, both encouraged and were responsible for tremendous organised violence and murder, and the only difference between the two is that Israel purport to being a first-world country and don't have such an excuse for supporting the actions of their particular nutjob. I'm all for a tactical strike against Ariel Sharon, don't get me wrong, but the death of Arafat is only a bad thing if Mazen can't put Hamas/IJ/so forth in their place and Palestine falls apart.

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally Posted by Phang

No. Sharon is no better or worse than Arafat was - both pandered to militant, quasi-fascist factions within their countries for a power base, both encouraged and were responsible for tremendous organised violence and murder, and the only difference between the two is that Israel purport to being a first-world country and don't have such an excuse for supporting the actions of their particular nutjob. I'm all for a tactical strike against Ariel Sharon, don't get me wrong, but the death of Arafat is only a bad thing if Mazen can't put Hamas/IJ/so forth in their place and Palestine falls apart.

Sharon is responisble for the slaughter of over a 1000 refugees in Lebanon, and the killings of civilians in the occupied areas in the time he has been prime minister.
Its not like Sharon is the first prime minister who is responsible for such things, both Begin (who led the terrorist group Irgun) and Shamir (who was a member of terrorist group Lehi), not to forget Rabin's (first prime minister to be actually born in Israel....) brutal hand in putting down the first intifada-rebellion.

What exactly is Arafat guilty off? Fighting for his peoples liberation? You seem to think that anyone involved in organized violence and murder is bad, well, sorry but its perfectly legal and just to fight the occupation (if you dont think so, our discussion is ofcourse over, and I will happily label you a supporter of fascism).
Arafat is not guily for what Hamas or Isamic Jihad did. He can be said to be responsible for the palestinian autorithies and PLO/Fatah.
As the Arafat has never been prime minister of a soverign state, he is in no way responisble for the acts of all palestianians/those living in the occupied territories, Sharon on the other hand is prime minister of a soverign state. The same with Abu Mazen, he has no responsibity to police the occupied territories for the occupying forces. That would make him a traitor, and poor Mazen would be picked up by whoever gets to him first. And it wont only be Hamas and Islamic Jihad who will be looking for him then, probably large parts of Fatah too.

I would also like to know any arguments for calling Arafat a quasi-fascist.

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

Its legal to take up arms to resist an occupation. Abbas isnt elected by the palestinan people to police them for Israel, in case your in any doubt, mr. Quisling.

Well I'm glad to see you're not trying to dress Abbas up as some sort of "moderate" who's "willing to negotiate", Mr. Versace.

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

So you belived in the Israeli Campaing of blaiming everything on Arafat,

Err, no. Israel has to be willing to respond positively, and has to provide the Palestinian leadership with results when it makes progress, otherwise no progress will be made here.

Regardless, however, Arafat knew that the actions of Hamas etc were blocks to peace, and he chose, for whatever reason, not to take any serious action against them.

And yes, I think Arafat has an awful lot to answer for, politically speaking.

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

Arafat is a saint by any standard compared to Ariel Sharon.

Regardless of however you assess the two men, how on earth is either a "saint" in comparison to the other?

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

Arafat is not guily for what Hamas or Isamic Jihad did. He can be said to be responsible for the palestinian autorithies and PLO/Fatah.

The PLO committed itself to the renunciation of terrorism at Oslo, and recognised that it was a block to a peaceful resolution. In this sense, yes, Arafat was eminently responsible for fighting terrorism. The PA is also the effective ruling authority and representative body of the whole Palestinian people - which includes militant groups within that body.

Oh, and let's not pretend that somehow the PA is incapable of doing this if it really wanted to for practical reasons. It has a security force of somewhere in the region of 50,000 men, possibly more. It is not some kind of purely civil authority which takes care of bog water and nothing else.

The PA and the PLO have the stated intention of fighting groups like those mentioned, they have the jurisdiction, and they have the means. They chose not to - often, not even in relatively minor ways such as changing political opinion on the issue, nevermind security policy.

There is no practical or moral reason that would deter the PA, if it wanted to, from making a serious crackdown against the militants. In fact, it has already engaged in half-hearted attempts in the past to do this. The main problem of course, is the ferocious levels of blacklash it would recieve from these groups.

All of which leads nicely onto:

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

same with Abu Mazen, he has no responsibity to police the occupied territories

Originally Posted by The Oslo Accords

In order to guarantee public order and internal security for the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, the Council [The PA.] will establish a strong police force

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

sorry but its perfectly legal and just to fight the occupation

What do you mean, here, by 'fighting' the occupation?

Let us just be clear here that blowing up Israel civilians is both politically retarded and morally indefensible, however you wish to approach it, and that the groups in question are a continuing block to peace.

[Yahwe]

mm this is proof positive that you need to use irc #forums as well as reading posts.

we found consolation at the shear idiocy of G.K Zhukov's post as a group in the channel.

you shouldn't have done all your suffering alone.

[Ninja_spammer]

hehe

[G.K Zhukov]

The Oslo Agreement was dead a week after it was signed, due to Israel never really wanting to do what they agreed too. With the benefit off hindsight, it just more like a american/israeli PR stunt than anything else.

I will answer the rest when you answer my questions.

[JonnyBGood]

I guess this counts as a crime. Also you seem to be fairly up dante's bum so here's what he said about Arafat when he died. I don't think tyrannical or corrupt are words of praise :(

[G.K Zhukov]

So your sources is a) Likud politician who is also a sionist and b) Dante, a man living in his cozy dreamworld somewhere in the UK.

Btw, some quick googling brought up this from your sionist:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/QA.jhtml?qaNo=100

"We have to separate Jews from Palestinians. Therefore, we'll have to pull out of the areas densely populated by Palestinians and make sure that Israel has a stable and permanent Jewish majority in the State of Israel. Or in other words, maximum Jews and minimum Arabs. "

Joining GD's comedy team?

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally Posted by Tactitus

Well I'm glad to see you're not trying to dress Abbas up as some sort of "moderate" who's "willing to negotiate", Mr. Versace.

He more looks like a weak guy who is all to able to please Israel/USA by giving to much away without reciving much in return.
But dont worry, people who have been put in place to police an occupied people have always fallen into unpopularity.

[Yahwe]

don't be stupid, be a smarty come and join the nazi party

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

So your sources is a) Likud politician who is also a sionist and b) Dante, a man living in his cozy dreamworld somewhere in the UK.

I'm not really sure why I'm being referenced here. All I said was the Arafat was a **** to the Palestenian people. His "crimes" against the Israeli's I didn't mention at all in that post.

Besides, it's utterly ludicrous to say that Sharon isn't "worse" than Arafat.

Arafat's problem (aside from corruption) was that he was too spineless, not that he was too militant.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

So your sources is a) Likud politician who is also a sionist and b) Dante, a man living in his cozy dreamworld somewhere in the UK.

Btw, some quick googling brought up this from your sionist:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/QA.jhtml?qaNo=100

"We have to separate Jews from Palestinians. Therefore, we'll have to pull out of the areas densely populated by Palestinians and make sure that Israel has a stable and permanent Jewish majority in the State of Israel. Or in other words, maximum Jews and minimum Arabs. "

Joining GD's comedy team?

What? It doesn't matter what else he said. It was just a random piece referring to the ma'alot incident where PLO-backed terrorists invaded a school and killed 26 Israeli students aged 14-16.


PS We were talking about total crimes dante. So crimes committed against the Palestinian people count towards making Arafat a shit.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

He more looks like a weak guy who is all to able to please Israel/USA by giving to much away without reciving much in return.
But dont worry, people who have been put in place to police an occupied people have always fallen into unpopularity.

PUT IN PLACE BY WHO? HE WAS DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED. WHAT WORLD DO YOU LIVE IN?

[Yahwe]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

What? It doesn't matter what else he said. It was just a random piece referring to the ma'alot incident where PLO-backed terrorists invaded a school and killed 26 Israeli students aged 14-16.


PS We were talking about total crimes dante. So crimes committed against the Palestinian people count towards making Arafat a shit.

arafat was a shit because of the money he stole,

regarding the conflict, in such a thing both sides committ atrocities.

they're both shits.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

PS We were talking about total crimes dante. So crimes committed against the Palestinian people count towards making Arafat a shit.

OK, that's cool then. I was for a second.