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Unread 28 May 2005, 17:56   #1
Weeks
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Oui ou Non?

European referendum thread. What will you vote?

Personally I don't think we need it. I'm reasonably happy with all the treaties we have at the moment (of course there are elements i dislike like the cap). Of course this leads to confusion, and it'd be nice to have a single document saying 'this is what Europe is about'. But the thing is, I don't think we've got that fully worked out yet.

I'd be fully game for a US style bill of rights, or a 'the eu aims to protect and enhance the life of the european peoples' etc, but the proposed constitution seems to concentrate on the nitty gritty too much.

I see the eu as a consensus of european states on certain issues, like democracy etc. I don't feel having a constitution would enhance this.

If for example, they want to greaten the eu parliaments powers just propose a new treaty. This to me represents an incremental formation of the eu. I don't think we need a 'this is what europe is full stop' type document.

Your thoughts?
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Unread 28 May 2005, 17:57   #2
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Je voterais oui parce que je pense l'Europe est importante pour des affaires anglaises.
Je pense que le Français votera le non.
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Unread 28 May 2005, 18:09   #3
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Re: Oui ou Non?

hmm if just one state voted no, would that leave that country out of the eu?
it's happened before, with ireland and denmark, but that hasnt left them out in the cold.
mind you they did vote yes the next time.

i cant see just one country voting no anyway. and if more than one country votes no the chance of the constitution getting dropped are high, especially if one of the countries is france or britain and another country.
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Unread 28 May 2005, 18:11   #4
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weeks
hmm if just one state voted no, would that leave that country out of the eu?
it's happened before, with ireland, but that hasnt left them out in the cold.
mind you they did vote yes the next time.

i cant see just one country voting no anyway. and if more than one country votes no the chance of the constitution getting dropped are high, especially if one of the countries is france or britain and another country.
If one country votes no then apparently the constitution is rejected by all of the EU, making the vote here unnecessary.
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Unread 28 May 2005, 18:12   #5
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weeks
hmm if just one state voted no, would that leave that country out of the eu?
it's happened before, with ireland and denmark, but that hasnt left them out in the cold.
mind you they did vote yes the next time.
That was my favourite moment in politics ever. Sorry guys you didn't vote the right way the first time around, please try again.


Some decisions really are too important to let thr peasants decide for themselves.
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Unread 28 May 2005, 18:14   #6
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Re: Oui ou Non?

I'm definitely voting no then.
Rejection of the constitution won't leave the eu dead in the water.
The eu been said to be in 'crisis' for years and years, it's still kept going, and even been quite successful.
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Unread 28 May 2005, 18:16   #7
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
That was my favourite moment in politics ever. Sorry guys you didn't vote the right way the first time around, please try again.


Some decisions really are too important to let thr peasants decide for themselves.
To be fair, they only voted no as they were pissed with the government, not just becaus they disliked that treaty.
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Unread 28 May 2005, 18:20   #8
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Re: Oui ou Non?

That claim has never even been remotely close to substantiated. I'd like to reference you to T&F's wonderful post in that political/public communications thread to better explain the situation there.
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Unread 28 May 2005, 18:31   #9
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Re: Oui ou Non?

So weren't the Irish people pissed at the government at the time of the referendum, and was this wholly to do with the elements of the treaty?

[edit] wait, are you saying the media's mind control devices were completely responsible?
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Unread 28 May 2005, 18:39   #10
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Re: Oui ou Non?

I'd say the main points of contention were a) the impact on irish neutrality b) the marginalisation of smaller states and c) as a warning shot to the EU leadership. Considering we voted back in that government with nearly a clear majority in a proportional representation voting system for the first time since the 70s I doubt you could say the irish people were pissed at the government. The yes campaign was run poorly and apathetically as everyone assumed the treaty would have to be passed. They were wrong. But thankfully we got a chance to vote the right way <3 <3


(I'm saying that it's a myth that the irish people voted no because they were pissed off at the government.)
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Unread 28 May 2005, 18:56   #11
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weeks
To be fair, they only voted no as they were pissed with the government, not just becaus they disliked that treaty.
I dont understand these kind of claims, are you honestly saying that the average person sat down, thought about this, and then decided to vote against it because they were unhappy with the government?

After the recent British election a lot of newspapers were saying things like "this shows the British electorate wants a Labour government but not one with a strong majority", as if what happened had been some kind of mass collabaration amongst the X million voters where they all decided to give Labour exactly 43.454% of the vote and no more.

Almost all claims along the lines of "people voted X because of Y" are likely to be false. You cant infer from the practical effects of a collective decision taken by X million people, each choosing in relative isolation with no real knowledge of what others would do, back to the motives the individual people had for voting the way they did.
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Unread 28 May 2005, 19:31   #12
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Almost all claims along the lines of "people voted X because of Y" are likely to be false. You cant infer from the practical effects of a collective decision taken by X million people, each choosing in relative isolation with no real knowledge of what others would do, back to the motives the individual people had for voting the way they did.

Someone tell mori and gallop they're out of a job. The newspapers made their claims based on specific questions they asked the public and the responce they got, they had a discussion with their various polling companies about what they wanted to find out from the public and questions were constructed that would shed light on that. Infact the very notion of a protest and/or tactical vote, something that was talked about in circles i move about in anyway suggests that sizeable portion of the population does vote with the collective intention of effecting the outcome of an election.

You can also directly infer back from the practical effects of a particular election to the motives of the electorate. Infact it may even be said to be a definition of an election.
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Unread 28 May 2005, 19:35   #13
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
Someone tell mori and gallop they're out of a job. The newspapers made their claims based on specific questions they asked the public and the responce they got, they had a discussion with their various polling companies about what they wanted to find out from the public and questions were constructed that would shed light on that. Infact the very notion of a protest and/or tactical vote, something that was talked about in circles i move about in anyway suggests that sizeable portion of the population does vote with the collective intention of effecting the outcome of an election.
I must have missed the bit where opinion polls regarding elections hadnt been found to be worthless nonsense with no predictive value over and over again. Given that polling has shown its inability to even guess which WAY people will vote, I'm fairly sceptical about claims it can determine the actual reasons behind the voting.
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Unread 28 May 2005, 19:37   #14
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I must have missed the bit where opinion polls regarding elections hadnt been shown to be worthless nonsense with no predictive value over and over again .
As long as they aren't constrained by their margins of error, wtf you on about?
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Unread 28 May 2005, 19:41   #15
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
As long as they aren't constrained by their margins of error, wtf you on about?
I'm not sure what you mean.

Did you notice how all polling organisations and bookmakers completely mispredicted the last British election, and the one 2 before it. They have no track record of making accurate predictions, and I'm astonished people continue to have faith in them - you'd be as well throwing darts at a board.
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Unread 28 May 2005, 19:47   #16
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Question Re: Oui ou Non?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Did you notice how all polling organisations and bookmakers completely mispredicted the last British election, and the one 2 before it. They have no track record of making accurate predictions, and I'm astonished people continue to have faith in them - you'd be as well throwing darts at a board.
Are you being sarcastic, or just ignorant?
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Unread 28 May 2005, 19:54   #17
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Are you being sarcastic, or just ignorant?

Im wondering that too

This site seems to show the polls through the election
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...l_election.htm

granted they are a few percentage points out of the result but that can be attributed to voters flux and the way the various organisations constructed their polls. Its news to me that polling organisations were useless. Infact i thought the new thing on the block was to pre-emptively use them to map out statistically, voting patterns street by street or even house by house and have a tailer made 'responce' when the party officials went to the door. Even focus groups use polling techniques to get inside the voters heads to find out what clicks and what doesn't.
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Unread 28 May 2005, 19:58   #18
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Exclamation Re: Oui ou Non?

Well, every major polling organisation has been correct in their figures since the revisions in their methods as a result of 1992. They were right in 1997, 2001, and the last election. So I'm not really sure what the hell Nod is on about.
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Unread 28 May 2005, 19:59   #19
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Re: Oui ou Non?

as soon as people realise that nod lives in another dimension the world will be a happier place
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Unread 28 May 2005, 20:01   #20
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Oh and back on topic im not intrinsically against the consitution, as far as i know its main aim is to tidy up the institutions and treaties already in place, ie the evil europeans aren't forcing something inherently different on us but instead making it easier to implement whats already there (EC, CFSP etc) in light of how many members are now in the EU.

Ill still vote non if it ever comes up though. Goverments as my man dante and his various commie friends tell me should be ineffiecient. Effcient organs of power repress the man (im serious). I don't care if its a little more difficult for some technocrat to get his job done, it should be more difficult. On top of that of course its fun, really fun to be an obstinate bastard.
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Unread 28 May 2005, 20:06   #21
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Exclamation Re: Oui ou Non?

The problem with the EU Constitution is that it's a bureacrat's document. This is fine and dandy for politicians, but it presents a bit of a problem when it has to be passed in national referenda. The EU hasn't really understood the fact that as the EU expands it can't continue in the same fashion as it did back in the sixites, when it was essentially a free trade organisation, and only the member governments themselves were concerned with it. If no-one understand the processes involved - and they don't - then anyone can say more or less whatever they like about them and be taken seriously.
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Unread 28 May 2005, 20:22   #22
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
Ill still vote non if it ever comes up though. Goverments as my man dante and his various commie friends tell me should be ineffiecient. Effcient organs of power repress the man (im serious). I don't care if its a little more difficult for some technocrat to get his job done, it should be more difficult. On top of that of course its fun, really fun to be an obstinate bastard.
That's nod's point of view too :)))
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Unread 28 May 2005, 20:42   #23
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I'm not sure what you mean.

Did you notice how all polling organisations and bookmakers completely mispredicted the last British election, and the one 2 before it. They have no track record of making accurate predictions, and I'm astonished people continue to have faith in them - you'd be as well throwing darts at a board.
exit polls this year were spot on. MORI's last opinion polls before the election were within a percent of each and the responses pointed towards a popular desire of a continued labour government but not quite so strong a one. You really are completely full of shit sometimes.


edit:

Oh, and Nusselt? You can't eat liberty.
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Unread 29 May 2005, 14:33   #24
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
The problem with the EU Constitution is that it's a bureacrat's document.
As is practically every document issued by governments around the world. I really enjoy people claiming how the European Constitution is completely unintelligible, and that we should stick to our own Constitution instead. Of course, they fail to realise that our own Constitution reads in pretty much the same way and as such their entire argument falls down on it's behind.

The problem with the EU Constitution is that they're having referenda about it. The majority of people are too stupid, lazy or simply uninformed about what the Constitution encompasses to make a decision based on accurate information and with some idea of the future implications of either a yes or a no vote. The result is that half the people will be voting based on arguments such as "I don't want Poland to tell me what to do! The euro has made life more expensive! The big countries will be the ones with all the power! I don't like our current government!", which are either nonsense or having nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Hell, to name but two examples, our national Animal Rights Party has flyers all around the country encouraging people to vote no because the Constitution doesn't specificlally prohibit things like bullfighting, despite the fact that unlike in the current system of treaties animals are being recognised as sentient beings, which makes the Constitution a marked improvement over the current situation, with room for further improvement in the future. And the fact that the Dutch entry for the Eurovision Songfestival didn't make it into the finals because all the Balkan countries voted for each other en masse has actually been used as "See, when these new countries are allowed into the EU, we will have nothing more to say!"-propaganda.

Of course political parties using the prospect of war and the holocaust in their "Vote yes!"-campaign hardly beats the previously named nonsense. But to answer the original question posed in this thread, I will be voting yes to the Constitution.
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Unread 29 May 2005, 14:37   #25
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Re: Oui ou Non?

"Eurovision Song Contest", Leshy.
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Unread 29 May 2005, 14:40   #26
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Re: Oui ou Non?

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"Eurovision Song Contest", Leshy.
Only if you care and live in the UK
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Unread 29 May 2005, 14:46   #27
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Exclamation Re: Oui ou Non?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
As is practically every document issued by governments around the world.
Did you read all of what I said? I said that it is fine for these things to be such as they are when they are only being looked on by diplomats and bureacrats. But we are not talking about a purely legal document which is to be viewed by those in positions of power. This is a document which is going to be either approved of or totally broken by European voters. So to pretend that it should just be another interminable piece of bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo is nonsense; simply, it has to appeal to European voters, or it will fail as a measure.

Whether you approve of referenda in principle or not, large steps forward such as this one will increasingly be put under the scrutiny of them; they will have to be, as Europe assumes more powers and it becomes more and more relevant to political life as a whole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
The result is that half the people will be voting based on arguments such as "I don't want Poland to tell me what to do! The euro has made life more expensive! The big countries will be the ones with all the power! I don't like our current government!", which are either nonsense or having nothing to do with the issue at hand.
And this ignorance of the implications of the constitution, or an unwillingness to get to grips with them, has nothing whatsoever to do with the document itself being a several hundred page piece of turgid nonsensica?
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Unread 29 May 2005, 14:52   #28
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Hell, to name but two examples, our national Animal Rights Party has flyers all around the country encouraging people to vote no because the Constitution doesn't specificlally prohibit things like bullfighting
The dutch are well known for their bull fighting........
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Unread 29 May 2005, 15:25   #29
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Did you read all of what I said? I said that it is fine for these things to be such as they are when they are only being looked on by diplomats and bureacrats.
Which is why I said that they should be exactly that. I'll acknowledge that it's a double-edged sword, but such documents are not written with the specific purpose of being incomprehensible. They have to withstand legal scrutiny and provide a solid framework, not be some popularised novel. I will agree that the government should be a lot clearer about what the entire document entails, and that the information has been sketchy at best.

Quote:
Simply, it has to appeal to European voters, or it will fail as a measure.
Why is Europe in this regard different from individual states? Surely if the European Constitution has to be written in a manner as to be accessible to the average person because it requires the consent of the European voters, the same would apply to any individual constitution in regards to the individual voters of that country?

I don't recall me being asked to vote on whether or not the Dutch Constitution could be amended the last time they did it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaio
The dutch are well known for their bull fighting........
What can I say? Animal Rights Activists
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Unread 29 May 2005, 21:09   #30
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Seems like the French have rejected it. Exit poll suggests 55% say non.
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Unread 29 May 2005, 21:20   #31
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Re: Oui ou Non?

vive la france
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Unread 29 May 2005, 21:24   #32
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Never thought they'd have the balls, i honestly thought there would be a sudden surge for the yes vote.
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Unread 29 May 2005, 22:20   #33
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Exclamation Re: Oui ou Non?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Which is why I said that they should be exactly that. I'll acknowledge that it's a double-edged sword, but such documents are not written with the specific purpose of being incomprehensible.
I wouldn't assume that. Whenever I'm presented with a large legalish document I immediately ask myself, 'What is it they're trying to hide?'
Quote:
They have to withstand legal scrutiny and provide a solid framework, not be some popularised novel. I will agree that the government should be a lot clearer about what the entire document entails, and that the information has been sketchy at best.
I think a Constitution should be a general statement of principles, not a detailed roadmap. It should lay out the structure of the government, not define agricultural policies. And regardless, no matter how detailed a Constitution there will still be situations that were never anticipated.

In this regard, I think the proposed EU Constitution is far too large and hence difficult to comprehend. If you want the people to buy into the Constitution (as opposed to the politicians and the bureaucrats) then you have make it more concise.
Quote:
Why is Europe in this regard different from individual states? Surely if the European Constitution has to be written in a manner as to be accessible to the average person because it requires the consent of the European voters, the same would apply to any individual constitution in regards to the individual voters of that country?
Yes of course. The original US Constitution was four pages, with signatures. Maybe now with 27 Amendments it would be up to five or six pages (in the original hand-written format. In primary school they used to give out little printed copies of the Constitution, about the size of a deck of playing cards only half as thick, that would easily fit in your shirt pocket).
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Unread 29 May 2005, 22:47   #34
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Re: Oui ou Non?

To be fair the constitution tries to set out and be more comprehensive than the US constitution, it has to encompasse all the treatise that came before it, the two aren't directly comparable. Saying the US constitution is 'thinner' when its scope isn't nearly as large isn't saying much.
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Unread 29 May 2005, 22:49   #35
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Exclamation Re: Oui ou Non?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
They have to withstand legal scrutiny and provide a solid framework, not be some popularised novel.
I disagree. Part of a good constitution, written or unwritten, is about imprecision. One of the reasons the US has a Supreme Court is precisely to decide on the scope of the US Constitution. Good governance can arise out of custom and precedent - you don't need to detail everything from botty-wiping upwards in a written document. In fact, the EU has moved along in the way it has due to spontaneous problem solving when issues arise.

The Constitution should have had a broad statement of principles, and a section setting out, simply enough, how the EU should work, and left it at that. None of this crap about introducing a new Foreign Minister and including previous treaties and all that bullshit.

It would have been a start on the road to helping people understand the EU. It would have been a start on the process of truely engaging people, and it might have even made them warm to the EU a little bit. It would have been the best way to do it.

By rights, this document shouldn't even be called a Constitution. At it's heart, it's just a new treaty masquerading as a Constitution. They could have saved themselves the bother and simply called it the Aachen Treaty or something, and half of the places that have felt compelled to have referenda on it because it was called a constitution would have just had it passed in parliament.

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Unread 29 May 2005, 22:51   #36
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Question Re: Oui ou Non?

Quote:
Originally Posted by A caption on the BBC site
Jacques Chirac had staked his prestige on the referendum
What prestige?
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Unread 29 May 2005, 22:55   #37
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Re: Oui ou Non?

I vote against, im in favor of an european constitution, but against this one
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Unread 29 May 2005, 23:02   #38
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
By rights, this document shouldn't even be called a Constitution. At it's heart, it's just a new treaty masquerading as a Constitution. They could have saved themselves the bother and simply called it the Aachen Treaty or something, and half of the places that have felt compelled to have referenda on it because it was called a constitution would have just had it passed in parliament.

I agree with the goth, this is less a document that sets out a new europe and more a document that tidies up everything that came before it. If they'd just called it a treaty and told everyone it was a treaty to tidy up the other treaties that were wasting eu taxpayers money it wouldn't even have registered a blip.
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Unread 29 May 2005, 23:11   #39
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Viva la France!
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Unread 29 May 2005, 23:18   #40
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Exclamation Re: Oui ou Non?

Well, I wouldn't be so bothered if it was just a 'tidying-up' excercise. In fact, that is what it should be, but isn't. No document which introduces a new Foreign Minister, and a new President is a 'tidying-up' excercise. I'm not opposed to these things in principle, but they don't belong here. This should have been an opportunity to set down what already exists, with a few amendments to take account of the new members, in a simple form.

They've tried to have their cake and eat it. They've tried to set down what already exists (Legal supremacy of EU law, QMV, etc), and then they've tried to tack these fairly substantial new bits on, and, just to round things off, have coated it in a load of dribble. You just can't realistically do that.
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Unread 29 May 2005, 23:25   #41
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Re: Oui ou Non?

The Eu constitution would confirm certain things in the EU that i find totally unacceptable. In the EU the legislation is created by the Eu Commission, which is by appointment. The Council of Ministers (elected ministers from each countries) and the European Parliament are only able to vote yes or no to the legislation (similar in theory to the Lords, except i believe they also propose changes). In my opinion this is unacceptable and shouldn't be confirmed by a constitution.

yes it tidies up some of the mess the EU is in but i disagree with the workings of the EU that they will be tidying up. The Eu doesn't need a constitution it needs reform, but they can't do that either because every country is trying to gain an advantage from it.

but heh anything is better than Norways position - taking it up the arse from the EU.
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Unread 30 May 2005, 00:26   #42
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Has anyone actually read all of the constitution ?

I'll be having a go tomorrow. I may be some time..........
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Unread 30 May 2005, 00:30   #43
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Re: Oui ou Non?

No, just looked at parts. I will hopefully get to buy the danish translation this summer.

The most important things are (in my opionion): 1) More areas are going to be under EU 2) The lack of any meaningful democracy in the EU is going to continue 3) EU has increased power generally versus the various states 4) Broad principlies like the so called 4 "liberties" are included (as usual) 5) It says that all countries must use more money on their military.
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Unread 30 May 2005, 00:36   #44
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Exclamation Re: Oui ou Non?

The BBC is saying that French voters have rejected the constitution "overwhelmingly".

I wouldn't call 55-56% an "overwhelming" rejection. 70%+, yes, but not just over half.
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Unread 30 May 2005, 09:37   #45
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Re: Oui ou Non?

maybe you british will vote for it now? after all, if the french dont want it, it cant be so bad.
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Unread 30 May 2005, 09:52   #46
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zakoff
The Eu constitution would confirm certain things in the EU that i find totally unacceptable. In the EU the legislation is created by the Eu Commission, which is by appointment. The Council of Ministers (elected ministers from each countries) and the European Parliament are only able to vote yes or no to the legislation (similar in theory to the Lords, except i believe they also propose changes). In my opinion this is unacceptable and shouldn't be confirmed by a constitution.

yes it tidies up some of the mess the EU is in but i disagree with the workings of the EU that they will be tidying up. The Eu doesn't need a constitution it needs reform, but they can't do that either because every country is trying to gain an advantage from it.

but heh anything is better than Norways position - taking it up the arse from the EU.
whats the alternative? the commision is also appointed by the national governments (each commisioner by one country i think, or did they manage to change that now? if you imagine them as a kind of minister for europe it really doesnt make much of a difference) yes, it would be nice to have a parlament with more power, but only the people in the larger countries will accept that.
if you give all the power to the parlament, or even let the people elect the commision, the interests of small countries would be completly ignored. if the EU would have been one country for a 100 years or so, maybe that would be acceptable, but not in the europe of today. weve been figthing each other for centuries, so people rather want to keep as much power as possible than surrender it to some idealistic european dream.
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Unread 30 May 2005, 10:20   #47
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Exclamation Re: Oui ou Non?

The Commission is totally powerless relative to the Council of Ministers anyway, and the Commission doesn't initiate European legislation without extensive consultation first. It has to, because legislation which doesn't have a large basis of support amongst the member states will simply die in the Council of Ministers.
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Unread 30 May 2005, 13:18   #48
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Re: Oui ou Non?

the alternative to a appointed commission is a voted in commision, obviously.
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Unread 30 May 2005, 13:29   #49
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zakoff
the alternative to a appointed commission is a voted in commision, obviously.
and who do you want to elect them? lets say a comissioner promises a lot of great things to me (as a german) so i vote for him/her. now lets say the irish are completly opposed to these things he promised. (i think i never ageed with JBG on anything at all, so thats not so unlikely) since the irish are only four million people, while we are 80 the candidate wont care much about their opinions. if you have been living in the same country for centuries, you can live with that, but the EU is a fairly new concept, so it wont work.
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Unread 30 May 2005, 13:30   #50
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Re: Oui ou Non?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
The Commission is totally powerless relative to the Council of Ministers anyway, and the Commission doesn't initiate European legislation without extensive consultation first. It has to, because legislation which doesn't have a large basis of support amongst the member states will simply die in the Council of Ministers.
In practise the Commision is the most powerful unit in the EU system, followed up by the EU court.

99% off the Ministers will come from socialdemocratic/conservative parties, who agrees on all most of the basics: Capitalism and expansion of the EU into a State. The Commision is day to day working leadership of the EU. By beeing hands on things everyday, you usually get an enourmous ammount of power, since you can dicatate alot of the "rules" before its handed over to the Ministers.
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