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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 19:00   #1
QazokRouge5
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God

Do you lot believe in God?

Seriously.

I didn't think that I did for a while, I was brought up Baptist and all that, but to me the thought of God just seemed to defy logic and reason. Not to mention all of the scientific research of the day.

But when I think about it, and I mean really think, it seems to me that there can be no other way. God must exist.

They say that two babies can be set side by side, both of them fed regualrly and properly taken care of, except, one baby will recieve loving care and caress, and the other will only recieve what it needs. They say that the baby that doesnt get that love will die. This was a study done somewhere, and I'm fairly sure it's accurate, but I'm not sure.

Isn't that proof that there must be a God?

What about the complexity of nature? The weather patterns? All of this seems too great for it to exist without a God creating it.

Does any of this make sense? What do you guys think?
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 19:03   #2
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Re: God

Waiting for Yahwe to reply...

...and yes
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 19:04   #3
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Re: God

I don't believe in God, but I am religious.

Edit: after actually reading your post it seems you are basing your belief on God on a lack of knowledge of the world, which is the wrong way to go about things.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 19:07   #4
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
They say that two babies can be set side by side, both of them fed regualrly and properly taken care of, except, one baby will recieve loving care and caress, and the other will only recieve what it needs. They say that the baby that doesnt get that love will die. This was a study done somewhere, and I'm fairly sure it's accurate, but I'm not sure.

Isn't that proof that there must be a God?
no.

it 'proves' a some other things but few of them pleasent.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 19:08   #5
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Re: God

oh my (non-existent) God

some nonsense about babies and a bit of ID theory = proof to you?
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 19:14   #6
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
They say that two babies can be set side by side, both of them fed regualrly and properly taken care of, except, one baby will recieve loving care and caress, and the other will only recieve what it needs. They say that the baby that doesnt get that love will die. This was a study done somewhere, and I'm fairly sure it's accurate, but I'm not sure.

Isn't that proof that there must be a God?
It's convinced me anyway!
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 19:21   #7
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Re: God

God is bollocks. It's just a bloody excuse for stuff people can't explain by logical thinking. Like in the dark ages when they believed the earth was flat and your head would be chopped off if you dared think otherwise because "God" made it like that. But it's round. Who on earth comes up with a world that is actually round? A round world, and make people stick to the bottom side of it so they won't fall off. You must have a pretty sick mind to be the first to come up with that.
"Oh, you know what, let's make a round world, and make people stick on the bottom half of it. Yeah, upside down... that'd be a funny sight!"

Back in the days when the earth was flat, God was a plausible explanation for our existence. But now we know the earth is round, God must be either a bloody psychopath or he doesn't exist.
And I know which I believe.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 19:24   #8
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Re: God

Well, I'm just throwing ideas around, but what do you guys think made the world?

And if the creator did make the earth, who's to say he's still around? What if the power required to make everything killed him?

Wouldn't it be ironic if everyone was wrong about God in this manner? The people swearing he's still around were wrong, because he's dead. The people saying he doesn't exist were wrong, because he did.

Make sense?
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 19:27   #9
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
Isn't that proof that there must be a God?
No, but it is proof that you can effectively use fallacies in your logic. Good job.

It is an interesting question. I believe that a question like that, which is metaphysical, cannot be answered by a physical reasoning. If we cannot think metaphysically, then we cannot answer a metaphysical question, basically.

However here's something to ponder about : if the universe was created by the big bang, what came before that? And before that? So on so forth.

The scientific reasoning seems to be this :
There was nothing >>> Now there is something
And basically that "Nothing" created matter, which is something.
So how can something be created out of nothing?
Theoretically you can also ask 'what came before God'.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 19:31   #10
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Re: God

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Originally Posted by _RATM_
No, but it is proof that you can effectively use fallacies in your logic. Good job.

It is an interesting question. I believe that a question like that, which is metaphysical, cannot be answered by a physical reasoning. If we cannot think metaphysically, then we cannot answer a metaphysical question, basically.

However here's something to ponder about : if the universe was created by the big bang, what came before that? And before that? So on so forth.

The scientific reasoning seems to be this :
There was nothing >>> Now there is something
And basically that "Nothing" created matter, which is something.
So how can something be created out of nothing?
Theoretically you can also ask 'what came before God'.
Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote in one of his works about God that

"God must be the unmoveable mover."

Since everything must be set in motion.

That's what makes God, a God... he didn't have to have anything before him.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 19:33   #11
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Re: God

Just because you don't have an explanation for something doesn't mean that God is the cause for the phenomenon.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 19:35   #12
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
They say that the baby that doesnt get that love will die. This was a study done somewhere, and I'm fairly sure it's accurate, but I'm not sure.

Isn't that proof that there must be a God?
I presume this bit was a joke.

And no, I don't believe in God. I can't imagine that any thinking person can, in this day and age at least.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 19:36   #13
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5
Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote in one of his works about God that

"God must be the unmoveable mover."

Since everything must be set in motion.

That's what makes God, a God... he didn't have to have anything before him.
Did you just quote a human being to logically explain a metaphysical event?
The fact that it's a saint already means he was a catholic, meaning abided by a strict doctrine of ridiculous dogmas (virgin Mary, Jesus didn't have sex and make billions of babies with that prostitute). I do believe the Bible is the worst possible historical (I use the term very loosely) document there is.

1: It was written by men
2: Apparently God is all forgiving, yet he still gets kicks off eliminating 5 000 jews off of the face of the earth; apparently Hitler wasn't the first jew hater
3: The selection of texts by the Catholic church revokes any possible credibility that the book had

Clever. You almost had me!
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 19:39   #14
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by _RATM_
Did you just quote a human being to logically explain a metaphysical event?
The fact that it's a saint already means he was a catholic, meaning abided by a strict doctrine of ridiculous dogmas (virgin Mary, Jesus didn't have sex and make billions of babies with that prostitute). I do believe the Bible is the worst possible historical (I use the term very loosely) document there is.

1: It was written by men
2: Apparently God is all forgiving, yet he still gets kicks off eliminating 5 000 jews off of the face of the earth; apparently Hitler wasn't the first jew hater
3: The selection of texts by the Catholic church revokes any possible credibility that the book had

Clever. You almost had me!
That's a fairly spectacular ad hominem right there man.



Not that Aquinas was right. The universe doesn't require anything to have created it. That's a category level error.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 19:43   #15
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
That's a fairly spectacular ad hominem right there man.
In the end, most of what can be said about the question of God is a fallacy.
I believe in God because Jewish and Christian faith has existed for so long
I believe in God because there I cannot explain how else it could have worked.
I believe in God because the Bible tells me to.
I believe God does not exist because we cannot prove it.
You can't proove God does not exist.

It's a vicious cycle.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 19:46   #16
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Re: God

I am a god.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 19:47   #17
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Re: God

Beliving in God is just as smart as beliving in Santa Claus.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 19:47   #18
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Re: God

JJ made the universe.



*paging Yahwe*
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 19:52   #19
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Re: God

If Jesus was sent to Earth because people were being naughty, would it have been possible that, had people decided to be less naughty for a while, Jesus would have been sent to Earth later? And if so does that not prove, (analogously to scientific innovation) that miracles should be understood as a product of the sociotheistic context they occur in rather than as an act of an objective god?
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 19:56   #20
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by _RATM_
In the end, most of what can be said about the question of God is a fallacy.
I believe in God because Jewish and Christian faith has existed for so long
I believe in God because there I cannot explain how else it could have worked.
I believe in God because the Bible tells me to.
I believe God does not exist because we cannot prove it.
You can't proove God does not exist.

It's a vicious cycle.
It's all a matter of faith. People can throw arguments around all they like, but they are only reiterating what they feel deep down. Someone will construct an argument, however brilliant it may be, simply to support whatever they already believe.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 19:57   #21
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
It's all a matter of faith. People can throw arguments around all they like, but they are only reiterating what they feel deep down. Someone will construct an argument, however brilliant it may be, simply to support whatever they already believe.
Exactly.
I do not believe that the question of God can be solved no matter how hard we try. I do believe, however, it's best we let it to rest. In other words, it is a waste of time.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:01   #22
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Re: God

Oh it's not a waste of time, but in my opinion how good threads like this are depends not on the viewpoints taken, but on the value and beauty of the arguments, even more so than normal.

So far we haven't done very well
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:02   #23
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Re: God

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Originally Posted by Deepflow
Oh it's not a waste of time, but in my opinion how good threads like this are depends not on the viewpoints taken, but on the value and beauty of the arguments, even more so than normal.

So far we haven't done very well
I'm not saying the thread isn't entertaining, it is.
However I don't believe we'll figure out if God exists, ever.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:07   #24
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Re: God

No, God does not exist. If he did, he'd kill anyone shouting out Chuck Norris jokes.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:07   #25
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by QazokRouge5

They say that two babies can be set side by side, both of them fed regualrly and properly taken care of, except, one baby will recieve loving care and caress, and the other will only recieve what it needs. They say that the baby that doesnt get that love will die. This was a study done somewhere, and I'm fairly sure it's accurate, but I'm not sure.
Who the hell performed this study. One that kills babys

On a more serious note. For their to be a god their would have to be some sort of plan to the world. And personally this idea repulses me. I dont like the idea of not having the final say in the running of my life. Fate scares the hell out of me.

I personally like current scientific doctorin. Whilest it leaves many questions unanswered. It allows me a certain freedom in my life that religion doesnt offer me.

Though i have a question for you. If their is a god who made him?
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:09   #26
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Re: God

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Originally Posted by Squishy
Who the hell performed this study. One that kills babys

On a more serious note. For their to be a god their would have to be some sort of plan to the world. And personally this idea repulses me. I dont like the idea of not having the final say in the running of my life. Fate scares the hell out of me.

I personally like current scientific doctorin. Whilest it leaves many questions unanswered. It allows me a certain freedom in my life that religion doesnt offer me.

Though i have a question for you. If their is a god who made him?
Having a God does not necessarily mean you have no control over life.

This thread makes me want to believe in the chaos theory again.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:10   #27
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Re: God

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Originally Posted by Nadar
No, God does not exist. If he did, he'd kill anyone shouting out Chuck Norris jokes.
No, you do not exist. If you did, Chuck Norris would roundhouse kick you in the head for insulting him.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:11   #28
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by _RATM_
Having a God does not necessarily mean you have no control over life.

This thread makes me want to believe in the chaos theory again.
Why would he make somthing for no reason? If he made everything then it must have a purpose which means you me and every blade of grass is here to perform a purpose.

Hitchhikers anyone?
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:13   #29
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Re: God

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Originally Posted by horn
we need someone who actually believes in god first
Enby does!

Get him in here.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:14   #30
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
If Jesus was sent to Earth because people were being naughty, would it have been possible that, had people decided to be less naughty for a while, Jesus would have been sent to Earth later? And if so does that not prove, (analogously to scientific innovation) that miracles should be understood as a product of the sociotheistic context they occur in rather than as an act of an objective god?
Jesus wasnt sent to earth because people were being naughty; being naughy just gets you drowned in a flood or turned to salt or whatever. He was sent in order to relieve the world from original sin I think (although Augustine didnt invent that until a few centuries after Jesus so who knows).
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:15   #31
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Jesus wasnt sent to earth because people were being naughty; being naughy just gets you drowned in a flood or turned to stone. He was sent in order to relieve the world from original sin I think (although Augustine didnt invent that until a few centuries after Jesus so who knows).
Or more likley was a superb con artist who never had to work a day in his life since pulling off the biggest scam of the millenium
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:16   #32
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Re: God

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Originally Posted by Deepflow
Enby does!

Get him in here.
enby is unlikely to want to get involved in the shitfest that is this thread.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:17   #33
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
Why would he make somthing for no reason?
Damned if I knew. I'm not a theologist and I don't care. But Catholicism (I once went to church) states not only that God knows what we will do with our lives, but we are in control of it. Paradox?
Quote:
If he made everything then it must have a purpose which means you me and every blade of grass is here to perform a purpose.
You can look at it that way. It all depends on what you want to believe.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:19   #34
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Jesus wasnt sent to earth because people were being naughty; being naughy just gets you drowned in a flood or turned to salt or whatever. He was sent in order to relieve the world from original sin I think (although Augustine didnt invent that until a few centuries after Jesus so who knows).
Which begs the question. If he relieves us of the original sin, why do we still have it?
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:20   #35
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Re: God

I realise i will never know the answers to life the universe and everything.

So i go with the choice to follow science as i quite like where they are going with things. It also means that i dont have to obay the rules that some of the more well known religions place on their followers.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:24   #36
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
I realise i will never know the answers to life the universe and everything.

So i go with the choice to follow science as i quite like where they are going with things. It also means that i dont have to obay the rules that some of the more well known religions place on their followers.
I believe that is the most logical thing to do. I am agnostic, neutral. I hate it when Bible Boys talk to me about their righteous God who will smite me because I dont go to church, but people saying God doesn't exist BECAUSE just annoy me.

I believe the logical thing to do is just live life following the virtues and morals you chose are best for yourself and deal with that question when you die.
--
On another note : science can be sketchy and needs to be criticised a lot more than religion.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:24   #37
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by _RATM_
Which begs the question. If he relieves us of the original sin, why do we still have it?
Jesus through his sacrifice provided mankind with an opportunity to redeem original sin. However that redemption was not automatic, rather it requires a voluntary act on behalf of the mortal involved to let jesus into their life and live according to his teaching.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:25   #38
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Re: God

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
Jesus through his sacrifice provided mankind with an opportunity to redeem original sin. However that redemption was not automatic, rather it requires a voluntary act on behalf of the mortal involved to let jesus into their life and live according to his teaching.
Which begs this question : if God is all forgiving, why should we have a sin in the first place?
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:27   #39
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by _RATM_
Which begs this question : if God is all forgiving, why should we have a sin in the first place?
You can be all forgiving and still require the sinner to repent.

The christian god is all forgiving in the sense that he would never reject a sinner who asked for forgiveness.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:27   #40
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by _RATM_
I believe that is the most logical thing to do. I am agnostic, neutral. I hate it when Bible Boys talk to me about their righteous God who will smite me because I dont go to church, but people saying God doesn't exist BECAUSE just annoy me.

I believe the logical thing to do is just live life following the virtues and morals you chose are best for yourself and deal with that question when you die.
I agree with this but will add a little

Dont make yourself unhappy now on the pretense that their is something better after, as their might not be.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:29   #41
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Re: God

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
You can be all forgiving and still require the sinner to repent.

The christian god is all forgiving in the sense that he would never reject a sinner who asked for forgiveness.
This is true. It is also all that I can get from those of protestant faith.

I just find it odd that God would need to be worshipped, have his minions ask for forgiveness for what the Pope / whatever tells them is wrong.

I am also puzzled by Hell. It seems to be just a little thing to scare people into believing and the such.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:32   #42
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Re: God

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Originally Posted by Squishy
Dont make yourself unhappy now on the pretense that their is something better after, as their might not be.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Why bother worrying, it's useless.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:33   #43
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
So i go with the choice to follow science as i quite like where they are going with things. It also means that i dont have to obay the rules that some of the more well known religions place on their followers.
You shouldn't ascribe any meaning of the kind to science. (The connotations of "follow" also seem pretty inappropriate here.)
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:34   #44
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Re: God

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Originally Posted by _RATM_
This is true. It is also all that I can get from those of protestant faith.

I just find it odd that God would need to be worshipped, have his minions ask for forgiveness for what the Pope / whatever tells them is wrong.

I am also puzzled by Hell. It seems to be just a little thing to scare people into believing and the such.
You appear to be puzzled over the difference between catholicism and protestantism ...

Hell is necessary in order to make a distinction between those in heaven and those not. The true horror of hell is the future of eternity without god; not the comedy red pixies with pitch forks you see in cartoons.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:36   #45
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Re: God

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Originally Posted by giles
You shouldn't ascribe any meaning of the kind to science. (The connotations of "follow" also seem pretty inappropriate here.)
We all follow trains of thought. This one allows me a lot more freedom in the choices i can make with my life than for instance catholasism would.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:37   #46
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Re: God

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
Hell is necessary in order to make a distinction between those in heaven and those not.
Theoretically, we are in Hell then.
Depending on how you take that statement.

Clearly an interesting debate.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:38   #47
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by _RATM_
Theoretically, we are in Hell then.
Depending on how you take that statement.

Clearly an interesting debate.
no we are not. we are on earth.

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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:41   #48
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by _RATM_
I'm not saying the thread isn't entertaining, it is.
However I don't believe we'll figure out if God exists, ever.
You will on Judgement Day, when he pnwrz j00, lol.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:51   #49
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
You will on Judgement Day, when he pnwrz j00, lol.
LOL!!! ROFLMAO KTHX!!!
Honestly if my big fault is not going to church, and that sends me to "Hell", then there's quite a load of people who are in deep shit.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 20:51   #50
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Re: God

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
We all follow trains of thought. This one allows me a lot more freedom in the choices i can make with my life than for instance catholasism would.
If that's all you mean by follow then I don't have a problem with it. I'm just sick of the whole religion-vs-science framework for debate.

Science only allows more choices than Catholicism in the sense that it doesn't have anything to say one way or the other about those choices.

Choosing to accept a belief system on the grounds that it allows you more freedom - rather than that it seems more likely to be true and good - is in danger of rendering the whole exercise pointless.
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