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Unread 1 Jun 2005, 19:36   #1
SYMM
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On-chip DRM :|

Quote:
Microsoft and the entertainment industry's holy grail of controlling copyright through the motherboard has moved a step closer with Intel now embedding digital rights management within in its latest dual-core processor Pentium D and accompanying 945 chipset.
http://www.zeropaid.com/news/5427/In...um+D+with+DRM/


This could be fun...
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Unread 1 Jun 2005, 19:42   #2
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

Surely this just opens up a whole market for competitors? Knowing that people will pay extra to have something with less technology sure seems like a good business plan to me.
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Unread 1 Jun 2005, 19:44   #3
SYMM
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

I would imagine the media with which it would be compatible would fail-safe from the point of view of the producers, and so not play unless it could be authenticated
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Unread 1 Jun 2005, 19:54   #4
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYMM
I would imagine the media with which it would be compatible would fail-safe from the point of view of the producers, and so not play unless it could be authenticated
But then people just pirate stuff in different formats for some software thats not made by the big boys?
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Unread 1 Jun 2005, 20:09   #5
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

I never buy Intel shit anyway.

Long Live AMD! (and Nvidia and so on)
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Unread 1 Jun 2005, 20:13   #6
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

i bet its cracked within a month of general release.
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Unread 1 Jun 2005, 20:16   #7
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
But then people just pirate stuff in different formats for some software thats not made by the big boys?
I was thinking mainly of Windows, and i would think that any chip-manufacturer that advertises itself as being pirate-friendly is very quickly going to run out of software...
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Unread 1 Jun 2005, 21:18   #8
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

Quote:
Originally Posted by JammyJim
i bet its cracked within a month of general release.
I doubt many people would go near their motherboard and processor with a soldering iron.

Other than that, if people who download stuff are effected by this (ie: it blocks the processing of certain files/video) then Intel is going to have a problem. People will think twice about buying an Intel if they can't view their downloaded stuff.
If it just DRM's DVD's and certain fileformats like WMV that are not commonly used, then Intel might get lucky because people will buy their chip just to be able to view DVD's on their PC, and OEMs might choose for Intel because stuff doesn't work on AMD platforms anymore.

So... gamble for Intel... The impact on pirated software/movies will determine a lot.
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Unread 1 Jun 2005, 21:38   #9
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

There's no way any hardware manufacturer will release 'only' hardware that is incompatible with pirated software unless there is legislation passed requiring them to do so, since doing so would be corporate suicide.
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Unread 2 Jun 2005, 01:01   #10
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

Your right Nod. Thats why they will try to force every motherboard-maker to imply that shit, so that you in the end have no other choice than to buy it. Or try to make the DVD's etc unplayable if it doesnt detect such a chip... like SI was into.
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Unread 2 Jun 2005, 01:07   #11
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

it wont be the dvds themselves unless they have the software to -play- them embedded on the disk
It'll be the software given out to play the disks which will check, and im sure someone will come up with a different player which doesnt check - or just crack it so it doesnt.
Drm wont work ultimately as it has to come out in analog form at one point ( sound or video ) which can be recaptured and redigitised as a non-drm file.
Its an utter waste of time for determined ppl
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Unread 2 Jun 2005, 01:27   #12
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

Indeed. But they will try to do it as difficult as posible, and with hardware involved it will be bitchy.
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Unread 2 Jun 2005, 01:31   #13
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

yup.
Its laughable though.
All it takes nowadays is ONE person to do it, and put it on the net.
that one copy becomes a hundred, then ten thousand, then millions in a matter of hours

Plus with 'internal leaks' , you dont even have to bother capturing the video from a source anymore. Just directly redigitise and release it like what happened with star wars ep 3.

The buisness model needs to change if it wants to survive. DRM will prove to be a failed attempt at maintaining an archaic system.
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Unread 2 Jun 2005, 01:33   #14
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
it wont be the dvds themselves unless they have the software to -play- them embedded on the disk
It'll be the software given out to play the disks which will check, and im sure someone will come up with a different player which doesnt check - or just crack it so it doesnt.
If the contents on the disk are encrypted, then you need a player able to decrypt it. If that decryption depends on your machine, then unless the encryption is 'cracked' you will need to use those players/that hardware to play the disk.
Even when/if it is cracked, it makes it a lot more inconveniant. Having to spend hours messing around with you PC because you just want to watch a movie would be enough to discourage most people.
Quote:
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Drm wont work ultimately as it has to come out in analog form at one point ( sound or video ) which can be recaptured and redigitised as a non-drm file.
Its an utter waste of time for determined ppl
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Unread 2 Jun 2005, 01:35   #15
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

Light is analog.
Sound is analog.
All display mechanisms display video as light.
All loudspeakers play sound as a sound wave
Until they invent a way of beaming it directly into the brain digitally and encrypted then it can be captured and there is sod all they can do to prevent it

The average user wont have to mess around for hours to get it to work
Like i said it only takes one person to do it, then release a non-drm'd version which others get and play with no fuss at all
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Unread 2 Jun 2005, 01:38   #16
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

So you're going to... film the screen? Hook up your capture device to the electron gun/lcd pixels? Use a microphone?

Or get fed up with the poor results / effort involved and buy the thing...

Edit: And other technologies are being developed such as watermarking to prevent the spread of content once it's been ripped. How successfull it may be is still unknown - but it just adds more effort to the process.
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Unread 2 Jun 2005, 01:41   #17
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

Thats the failsafe way to do it.
Chances are a determined set of ppl will just crack the digital video/sound stream and process it into an xvid/mp3 'd avi file as they do now.
That file just gets downloaded and played by ppl.

Edit:
Watermarking is something which can only really help imo in pinpointing where the captured video came from. Its most useful in pinpointing internal leaks.
It cant stop or limit the spread of it once its 'out there' but it can be used to work out where it came from and try to prevent another one occurring.
Watermarking isnt beyond being removed either if you know where about in the video it is and what it is, again insiders can help on this aspect. Dont overlook that chances are a few are getting paid for their contributions
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Unread 2 Jun 2005, 01:51   #18
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

Watermarking system developed where the watermark is a certain patter of data changed by the player across the whole film => hard to detect / remove. When copies are detected with the watermark it can be related back to a machine. I can't remember whether the players are deactivated by the internet or whether any future disks contain a 'blacklist' (if a machine finds itself on the blacklist it deactivates itself) but basic idea is you can copy a movie once, but if it shows up in distribution you need to buy a new player.
(Thought I saw this on the register - just double checking)
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Unread 2 Jun 2005, 01:57   #19
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

That'd be watermarking every file on the binary level then you`re on about.
Video editing software doesnt have this in, especially not open source editing software and there is little reason for them to add it.
The only other way to watermark it in the manner you`re saying is for the computer to watermark every file that goes out of it, or for the network card/isp to watermark files as the packets pass through them.

As for the player, since they dont copy the files, only play them they cant watermark them.

Also, i would bet such a system is reverse engineered so released video files suddenly have the watermark of major companies such as those in mpaa.
It would hardly be popular if they disabled their own signatures for everyone forcing them to buy a copy of their existing movies with a new watermark. It`d be corporate suicide
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Unread 2 Jun 2005, 02:10   #20
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

Each player has a unique key. Uses this to alter its output. If that bit pattern for that key appears on a widely available version then (the player associated with) that key is disabled. Apparently it's pretty robust, but alas I cannot find the article.

If you copy the disk - you still have the DRM, will not play on 'unauthorised' machines.
If you try and capture the output, it's encrpyted.
If someone does manage to get a copy in the wild, it can be traced back to their player.
Continue going after P2P networks/Bittorrent etc.

There are many other schemes out there, but basically even if not completely successful, they would attempt to turn pirating something into a lot of effort; encouraging a lot more people to just buy the movie/song.

There does seem to be a lot of easier ways to ensure everyone gets paid their due, but if this is the route that the RIAA/MPAA choose - it isn't totally unfeasable. Sure it's a lot of hard work, but it's quite possible it will work (well enough). They can keep raking in the megabucks.

nn.
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Unread 2 Jun 2005, 02:14   #21
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

Imo the best thing the movie industry could do is provide their own online service for movies

It would still suffer the problems of it being copied/hacked and the issues with drm and watermarking but if priced right and doesnt suffer from draconian drm around it then there wont be much point in doing so.

Like itunes* for movies, except with a monthly subscription which provides instant access to all movies, on demand with no restrictions on how many you can see or when you see them.
Moves away from the issue of movies as property towards a service based system.


*part of the reason for itunes success imo is the weak drm on it. Its enough to 'please' the music industry while not being anal enough to piss people off too much by using it
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Unread 2 Jun 2005, 02:23   #22
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

Aye Phil.

The music and movie industry got to start re-thinking their business-model. I think people are fed up paying 15£ for a album containing massproduced pop with shit lyrics. Not to mention the hollywood-movies who seems to be based upon new variants of the same old plots, over and over again. Why should I pay 6£ for a ticket to a cinema, when I can rent the dvd for 3£ and watch it with my friends, or buy it for 8£? Or even better, just dl it for free.
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Unread 2 Jun 2005, 02:27   #23
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamMak
Each player has a unique key. Uses this to alter its output. If that bit pattern for that key appears on a widely available version then (the player associated with) that key is disabled. Apparently it's pretty robust, but alas I cannot find the article.

If you copy the disk - you still have the DRM, will not play on 'unauthorised' machines.
Sure, a bit-to-bit copy of it will contain the drm , same as a bit-to-bit copy of a game cd still contains the copy protection ( oh the irony )
Thing is, The drm can be stripped out of it leaving a clean disk which can then be played on machines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamMak
If you try and capture the output, it's encrpyted.
Again see earlier point about determined ppl cracking it and providing a decrypted version, and about the end-product being unprotectable

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamMak
If someone does manage to get a copy in the wild, it can be traced back to their player.
They can trace it back to an encoder if the watermarking is left in yes.
the idea is then that they can disable that encoding string for ppl, and all movies from them wont work anymore.
Now - Imagine if that encoder happened to be the same one the movie industry uses and encoded a heck of a lot of films for them.
( or more likely, just claimed it was )
They wouldnt dare disable it since it would end up making a lot of their own movies unusable and would just serve to piss people off.
( note distinction between encoder and player, the encoder MAKES the movie, the player just plays it)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamMak
Continue going after P2P networks/Bittorrent etc.
This is probably the most likely route they'll take.
and again its a pointless one.
Each time they take down a tracker for instance, two more pop up in their place
Each time they 'break' the tech used in p2p, the next generation comes out which is much much harder to break

See what happened with napster for instance
it used a centralised server for everything. Take out the server, take out the network.
That spawned kazaa , a decentralised system where if they took out the servers, the network would continue to exist
They were only able to render kazaa unusable by having it spammed to buggery with fake files which isnt as easy to do on the generation above kazaa, Edonkey, etc since they use hashing** to verify the files.

Bittorrent came about not through an upgrade in p2p tech but rather a way of solving bandwith issues for distributing large files. It was embraced by 'bad ppl' because it was a great tech for things.
It wasnt designed with anonymity in mind and so everyone who connects to the trackers are identified.
Again this suffered from the centralised issue napster had but only for connecting new people to the swarm of downloaders.
Take out the tracker, new ppl cant join it.
the existing people will continue to download off each other quite happily though
its like taking away the road sign to a party, new people cant find it but the ones already there will continue to party away.

There is now a trackerless system in place for bittorrent so if the tracker goes down its not a massive problem. You can still join the swarm
There is, in the pipeline quite good anonymity for bittorrent as well so going after individuals will be an order of magnitude harder

( note there are networks currently in existance which provide total anonymity, such as freenet* )

Ultimately all it takes is one person to 'break' the protection around a video and distribute a cleaned version of it.


* Freenet works on the basis of just passing chunks without knowing or caring where they`re from, what they are or where they`re going.
(highly simplified but thats essentially it)

** Yes i know about experiments with hash collisions where two files have the same hash but managing to achieve a collision in a file which has the exact same size is astronomically hard and would take a VERY VERY long time to do, in the order of years for SHA for instance. MD5 is easier but would still take a very long time
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Unread 2 Jun 2005, 11:11   #24
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

Phil stresses the same points I would make. No matter how clever a company or person thinks they are, there will always be someone smarter out there. That aside, even the biggest of companies can't hope to challenge a swarm of hackers & crackers the size of the internet.
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Unread 2 Jun 2005, 11:40   #25
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
The music and movie industry got to start re-thinking their business-model. I think people are fed up paying 15£ for a album containing massproduced pop with shit lyrics. Not to mention the hollywood-movies who seems to be based upon new variants of the same old plots, over and over again. Why should I pay 6£ for a ticket to a cinema, when I can rent the dvd for 3£ and watch it with my friends, or buy it for 8£? Or even better, just dl it for free.
I couldnt agree with you more on this.

The sad thing is it isnt the film studios or the record labels selling the products for stupid prices. Its the stores that sell them on (e.g. HMV). When i worked there you could look on the computer at how much they pay for the CD/DVD. It was usually around £5. Then HMV add 200% on then wonder why people buy from cdwow/play etc. The internet companies have a much better business model. Sell more at a cheaper price.

So its unfair to blame the record labels and film companies for the prices. But it is fair to blame them for the crap content of their products.
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Unread 2 Jun 2005, 13:02   #26
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
They can trace it back to an encoder if the watermarking is left in yes.
the idea is then that they can disable that encoding string for ppl, and all movies from them wont work anymore.
Now - Imagine if that encoder happened to be the same one the movie industry uses and encoded a heck of a lot of films for them.
( or more likely, just claimed it was )
They wouldnt dare disable it since it would end up making a lot of their own movies unusable and would just serve to piss people off.
( note distinction between encoder and player, the encoder MAKES the movie, the player just plays it)
Ahah, the link is found. Self Protecting Digital Content

Quote:
"When a pirate makes a copy of a film encoded as SPDC, the output file is cryptographically bound to a set of player decryption keys. So it is easy when looking at a pirated work on a peer to peer network, or any copies found on copied DVDs, to identify which player made those copies," said Laren "When the content owner sends out any further content it can contain on it a revocation of just the player that was used to make a pirated copy."
Just shows that there are solutions such as this around that can be used if necessary. While the encryption may be broken - making it less attractive to do so and more effort may be sufficient to cut down on piracy. And if not, i'm sure they'll bring in more technology
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Unread 2 Jun 2005, 13:43   #27
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
Phil stresses the same points I would make. No matter how clever a company or person thinks they are, there will always be someone smarter out there. That aside, even the biggest of companies can't hope to challenge a swarm of hackers & crackers the size of the internet.
HACKERS CRACKERS KNACKERS WHACKERS !
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Unread 2 Jun 2005, 14:26   #28
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYMM
6 months later:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBC Technology News
Shares in Intel dipped today ahead of speculation that the chip giant's Q4 accounts will show a 'significant' drop in earnings. Insiders have blamed the poor performance of the company on a slump in the growth rate of it's processor and motherboard division.
The fall is widely believed to be a direct result of a consumer boycott in protest of the embedded DRM (copyright enforcement) technology which Intel introduced into it's products, under intense industry pressure from Microsoft. An Intel spokesman declined to comment on the speculation, indicating that shareholders should wait until the company has published its results before reacting.
Hector Ruiz, CEO of AMD, was quick to reiterate his statement that embedded DRM infringes fair use provisions of copyright legislation, adding that AMD still has no plans to introduce such technology.
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Unread 2 Jun 2005, 14:59   #29
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

1. It'll be cracked.
2. As long as there's choice, and noone passes a 'you must use this hardware' law, there'll really be no problem.
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Unread 2 Jun 2005, 15:02   #30
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamMak
Ahah, the link is found. Self Protecting Digital Content



Just shows that there are solutions such as this around that can be used if necessary. While the encryption may be broken - making it less attractive to do so and more effort may be sufficient to cut down on piracy. And if not, i'm sure they'll bring in more technology
Take a closer look at the bit from me you just quoted. It describes this, and how it can be circumvented.

as djbass says - No matter what a company or person can do in technological means, they cannot hope to overcome the army of geeks which exists on the internet forever.
For every problem there is a solution, and finding it is merely a matter of time
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Unread 2 Jun 2005, 15:07   #31
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

"Why you should never support the biggest & badest monopolist out there, who's even overcharging their products".

Thank god for AMD I say. And the Army of Geeks.
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Unread 4 Jun 2005, 04:14   #32
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Re: On-chip DRM :|

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Take a closer look at the bit from me you just quoted. It describes this, and how it can be circumvented.
Responding just to be anal as you neg repped me for this

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamMak
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
They can trace it back to an encoder if the watermarking is left in yes.
the idea is then that they can disable that encoding string for ppl, and all movies from them wont work anymore.
Now - Imagine if that encoder happened to be the same one the movie industry uses and encoded a heck of a lot of films for them.
( or more likely, just claimed it was )
They wouldnt dare disable it since it would end up making a lot of their own movies unusable and would just serve to piss people off.
( note distinction between encoder and player, the encoder MAKES the movie, the player just plays it)
Yes, I'm not arguing about the distinction between encoder and player. But if you read the link you would have seen the whole point of this technology is that the watermark is added by the decoder in the player. Not when the movie co. creates the movie, but when the box under your TV (/in your computer I guess) decodes and outputs the movie. And this is uniquely bound to the key for your player not to the encoder.
Therefore when your player finds it's own key listed on the blacklist on any future disks it won't play that disk.

Personally, I do think music/movies/games will always be pirated in one way or another. But I can also see why some entertainment co's think that they can 'win' using DRM and related technology, (Note: All that's necessary for them to 'win' is negligable piracy, not no piracy at all) even if it does take a completely locked down machines for them to do so.

So yeah, neg rep me for having shitty arguments, or being a shitty arguer. But not because you didn't understand an article written by someone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by That Article
"When a pirate makes a copy of a film encoded as SPDC, the output file is cryptographically bound to a set of player decryption keys. So it is easy when looking at a pirated work on a peer to peer network, or any copies found on copied DVDs, to identify which player made those copies," said Laren "When the content owner sends out any further content it can contain on it a revocation of just the player that was used to make a pirated copy."
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