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Unread 24 Dec 2018, 15:46   #1
Paisley
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COVERT OPs fix

Covert ops isnt what it used to be to prevent roid loss from the casual Basic Agent Training / Exploding Fist which forces early cov op immunity and makes cov ops stale before its time.

what I''m proposing is a change in the cov op tech tree....


Basic Agent Training (starting technology)

Research Transferral

and make exploding fist the 4th tech in the covop tree


IMO this would make cov ops more exciting and less likely to stale cov ops via everyone going immune.
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Unread 25 Dec 2018, 07:24   #2
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

Best fix is to remove them

Just place them under scans and save the ones which give some intel back at you.
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Unread 26 Dec 2018, 08:24   #3
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

It used to be earlier (first?) in the tree, and was moved further along exactly because it was so good. We don't have advanced unit scans first, either.
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Unread 3 Jan 2019, 09:55   #4
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

I'd rather them blow up 3 rocks than steal 200 RP. This wouldnt fix the problem of everyone rushing immunity.
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Unread 9 Jan 2019, 22:20   #5
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

How about adding a new scan after AU - "Anti-Government Subversion Broadcast" - which if amps>distorters allows the scanning planet to broadcast subversive messages to the target's population, thereby reducing alert level. The idea would be make it prohibitively expensive to carry out, but also incur some benefit when the cost analysis proves worthwhile in the case of top planets under heavy attacks, etc.

Each scan costs 9000 MCE. Each scan (broadcast) reduces target by 1 alert (-1). When broadcast is successful, scanner sees message "The target's alert has been reduced by 1 alert, currently total alert subversion is -1. The maximum is 15. (currently 1/15)" The scanner (broadcaster) can then carry the scan out for a maximum of 15 per tick with desired effect, otherwise "The target's maximum subversion has been reached. (15/15)" The effect would reduce at +5 alert per tick, so the following tick the level would have dropped to (10/15) and another 5 broadcasts could reinforce the maximum bonus. Of course these values are all inserted for illustrative purposes and can be tweaked accordingly.
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Unread 10 Jan 2019, 10:01   #6
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

Quote:
Originally Posted by budious View Post
How about adding a new scan after AU - "Anti-Government Subversion Broadcast" - which if amps>distorters allows the scanning planet to broadcast subversive messages to the target's population, thereby reducing alert level.
This changes the scan dynamic a lot. I'm unconvinced, but I'm listening...

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Each scan costs 9000 MCE.
Fixed cost or initial cost? Currently scan costs go down if a scanner has more amps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by budious View Post
Each scan (broadcast) reduces target by 1 alert (-1). When broadcast is successful, scanner sees message "The target's alert has been reduced by 1 alert, currently total alert subversion is -1. The maximum is 15. (currently 1/15)"
I think that's way too much information if you're also doing damage. Particularly the "1/15" but even that it's actually gone down tells you that it hasn't hit the limit.
Aside: Revealing alert might be useful in a scan on its own

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Originally Posted by budious View Post
otherwise "The target's maximum subversion has been reached. (15/15)"
This would still need to be charged as a scan I think...

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The effect would reduce at +5 alert per tick
I'd suggest using the existing mechanism for restoring alert here rather than confusing matters.
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Unread 10 Jan 2019, 11:45   #7
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

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This changes the scan dynamic a lot. I'm unconvinced, but I'm listening...
I figured it was a good way to address immunity by making a larger financial impact to have full immunity against the scan, while also incurring high expense on those who wish to utilize it. To me, scanning and cov ops go together, so making a complimentary system makes sense. You have a covop for reducing amps/dist so have a wave for reducing alert.


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Fixed cost or initial cost? Currently scan costs go down if a scanner has more amps.
My initial thought was putting it after AU at a base cost of 9K ea, but since the intended effect is to overpower distorters with propaganda broadcasts, then having more amps should require more power (cost to produce energy) to break target's distorters; so in the case of this scan, perhaps reversing the discount formula to increase scan cost at higher amp count would be preferable. You could also factor in scanner amps / target distorter ratio to the strength of the effect or the cost of the effect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pit View Post
I think that's way too much information if you're also doing damage. Particularly the "1/15" but even that it's actually gone down tells you that it hasn't hit the limit.
Aside: Revealing alert might be useful in a scan on its own
You could omit the message portion specifying the total effect, and indicate solely whether the alert was further dropped or was unchanged (indicating maximum reduction already in effect). Alert level scan might be useful but too direct, alliance tools and bots can process scans and produce fairly accurate prediction ranges so provide a scan that reveals population slider levels, this would further increase accuracy of potential cov op success calculated by alliance tools, without flatly giving away the alert level.


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This would still need to be charged as a scan I think...
That was my intention, you would be charged for the scanned but informed it had no further effect. "maximum subversion has been reached."


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I'd suggest using the existing mechanism for restoring alert here rather than confusing matters.
"The maximum alertness is the number your alertness will DECREASE TOWARDS every tick if it is higher, and raise towards if it is lower.
It lowers by the following if your alertness is too high:

floor(6-min(security_guards/(total_roids+1),2)*(1+(pop_security+gov_bonus)/100 ))

The above is a number between 2 and 6.

or raises by the following if your alertness is too low:
floor((4+min(security_guards/(total_roids+1),5))*(1+(pop_security+gov_bonus)/1 00))

The above is a number between 4 and 16."
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Unread 10 Jan 2019, 11:52   #8
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

superb idea budious
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Unread 10 Jan 2019, 15:11   #9
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

The first covert op should be to steal security guards. This way no real harm can be done unless you actually spend some RP into it.

I would really like to see a nub protection for covert ops. The general attack protection could work here. New players are often "covert opped to death". They don't get how to protect themselves and get constantly hit. Covert ops should be something to hit / annoy the bigger players and not nub / idler bashing.

And why can we not hit allied planets? This is a real pain! Just imagine the entertaining drama if people from one of the 8 carnage tags can actually hit heresy planets.
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Unread 11 Jan 2019, 13:22   #10
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

Quote:
Originally Posted by budious View Post
since the intended effect is to overpower distorters with propaganda broadcasts, then having more amps should require more power (cost to produce energy) to break target's distorters;
That makes no sense to me at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by budious View Post
so in the case of this scan, perhaps reversing the discount formula to increase scan cost at higher amp count would be preferable.
That's messy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by budious View Post
You could also factor in scanner amps / target distorter ratio to the strength of the effect or the cost of the effect.
That could potentially make sense...

Quote:
Originally Posted by budious View Post
Sure, so you'd like to take the existing formulae that you consider too complex and add "unless they're recovering from budious's special scan, in which case their alert will increase by an additional 1-5, depending on how many budious scans had been performed on the planet in the last 3 ticks". That really simplifies matters
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Unread 11 Jan 2019, 20:13   #11
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

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That makes no sense to me at all.

That's messy...
Look at it as there are two options to block or counter the subversion broadcasts, the target can either continue to hoard distorters to limit the number of potential broadcasters or increase alert sufficiently to counter subversion broadcasts. Since the number of distorters imposes a significant cost opportunity in resources and non-distorter structures, it makes sense to raise the cost of the scan according to the number of amps possessed by the scanner, or at least by the minimum penetration ratio required to overpower distorters.


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That could potentially make sense...
Well at least we agree on something...

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Originally Posted by Pit View Post
Sure, so you'd like to take the existing formulae that you consider too complex and add "unless they're recovering from budious's special scan, in which case their alert will increase by an additional 1-5, depending on how many budious scans had been performed on the planet in the last 3 ticks". That really simplifies matters
Sorry, I was just being facetious... this is the least important aspect, so hammer out the actual impact details and we can discuss the alert recovery later.
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Unread 12 Jan 2019, 13:24   #12
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

Quote:
Originally Posted by budious View Post
Look at it as there are two options to block or counter the subversion broadcasts, the target can either continue to hoard distorters to limit the number of potential broadcasters or increase alert sufficiently to counter subversion broadcasts. Since the number of distorters imposes a significant cost opportunity in resources and non-distorter structures, it makes sense to raise the cost of the scan according to the number of amps possessed by the scanner, or at least by the minimum penetration ratio required to overpower distorters.
It goes against everything else scan wise though, and pretty much reverses the logic. A fixed cost might not be too much of a departure, but increasing based on amp count makes no sense.
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Unread 18 Jan 2019, 14:40   #13
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

The easiest fix is to remove Covops altogether. With 90% of the Uni immune it's just the nubs/farms that get targetted.

Also, with the new quest rewards, Xan with a recovery of 4 vs Cath with a recovery of 10 is rather imbalanced? You can barely even complete the Covop tree as Xan with the game how it currently is!

It's another element of the game which promotes setting up farms and adds very little to the overall gameplay.
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Unread 18 Jan 2019, 16:20   #14
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramar View Post
The easiest fix is to remove Covops altogether. With 90% of the Uni immune it's just the nubs/farms that get targetted.

Also, with the new quest rewards, Xan with a recovery of 4 vs Cath with a recovery of 10 is rather imbalanced? You can barely even complete the Covop tree as Xan with the game how it currently is!

It's another element of the game which promotes setting up farms and adds very little to the overall gameplay.
Alternatively it should require that you hire guards daily/or send them to school to keep alert up daily
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Unread 1 Feb 2019, 19:36   #15
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

Another cov op scan idea, "Sonic Attack" - utilize amplifiers to emit ultrasonic waves at guards, sickening them for [x] ticks, reducing their effectiveness by [y]... strength of effect determined by ratio of amp/distorter
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Unread 2 Feb 2019, 00:03   #16
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

another fine idea
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Unread 2 Feb 2019, 18:26   #17
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

"If your target is not immune, make it even less immune".
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Unread 3 Feb 2019, 17:48   #18
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

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"If your target is not immune, make it even less immune".

cov ops can be fun but only for the first few 100 ticks
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Unread 7 Feb 2019, 02:08   #19
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

Can’t be bothered to mess with it, though it’s certainly annoying early on...

I’m not a fan of removing ways to “play” the game though.

However, blowing up asteroids seems really counter productive.
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Unread 7 Feb 2019, 04:29   #20
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

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Canít be bothered to mess with it, though itís certainly annoying early on...

Iím not a fan of removing ways to ďplayĒ the game though.

However, blowing up asteroids seems really counter productive.
what about a shuffle of the roids, for example you could set it to swap Metal for Crystal

repeatedly swapping metal roids for crystal roids forcing them to exchange resources to balance their incomes!
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Unread 7 Feb 2019, 09:16   #21
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

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what about a shuffle of the roids, for example you could set it to swap Metal for Crystal

repeatedly swapping metal roids for crystal roids forcing them to exchange resources to balance their incomes!
I quite like this, but I'm struggling for a story. Particularly how the attackers can do it, but the planet can't just undo it. Or do it themselves when convenient.
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Unread 8 Feb 2019, 14:00   #22
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

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I quite like this, but I'm struggling for a story. Particularly how the attackers can do it, but the planet can't just undo it. Or do it themselves when convenient.
they'd need to init the roids to balance it out and thus waste more resources, more game impacting, not as negative in terms of completely removing roids from the universe
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Unread 8 Feb 2019, 23:01   #23
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

As I said, I like the idea. But it needs a story.
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Unread 9 Feb 2019, 17:41   #24
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

You guys overestimate how much trading costs.

If you do that operation 10 times in a row (impressive against an active planet), converting 12 roids per time, that's 120 Metal roids that are now Crystal. Assuming your target is a 999 roid (now severely imbalanced: 213/453/333) Terran that only buys, say, Harpies (97/86/86), that means that for every 999k of income (213k, 453k, 333k), they can buy (after faffing about with trading with a 5% tax for a bit: 135980 Crystal and 16080 Eonium to Metal) 3685 harpies with 132 resources left, which is a total of 991397 resources.

If you hadn't done those covert ops, they would've had 333k/333k/333k, which (after trading 14080 Crystal and 14080 Eonium to Metal) would've gotten them a total of 3708 Harpies with 144 resources left over, which is 997596 resources total.

Subtract, and the net result of all your efforts is... 6199 resources lost. 0.6%.

Maybe 10 a time is too few? What if you instead turned all their Metal roids into Crystal ones? Their income in the same period is now 0/666k/333k. The same process (352540 Crystal and 19540 Eonium to Metal) would result in a net loss of 18604 resources, or 1.7%.

I hate to be all Mr. Negative, but... why not just bankhack them? 1 operation, 10 agents (if you're the same value), 10000 resources stolen, a swing of 20000.
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 9 Feb 2019 at 17:51. Reason: The math is never right first time, is it.
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Unread 9 Feb 2019, 21:41   #25
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Re: COVERT OPs fix

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You guys overestimate how much trading costs.
Accepted.

The forums won't let me give you rep for the post though
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