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Unread 14 Jun 2004, 15:49   #51
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
If Napoleon had conquered you all we'd be having this conversation in french lol.
Thank god he didn't
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Unread 14 Jun 2004, 15:49   #52
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
The EU seems to translate all their documents and I'm sure that's some cost, but it's something that can be measured and evaluated. If it's more efficient to do some things in a single language then we can do that.
Efficiency isn't really that important in this context. It's more about perceptions of legitimacy. For whatever reason people are more comfortable that someone "like them" is making decisions which affect them. Their definition of selfhood obviously varies. It might be that they're uncomfortable with someone of a different race, or gender, or whatever making decisions for them.
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Historians often tell me about the importance of shared history but I'm not convinced. Surely WWII is the most important historical event?
Probably yeah. But I think that's simplifying things a bit. "Well, the Germans and Britons both experienced World War 2 so they obviously shared the experience!" is a bit misleading. Briton (and France, and Germany, and Russia....etc) had a unique experience of World War 2. True, the East End had a different experience to Cornwall of WW2, but it was still more of a shared experience than Cornwall & Belgium. British troops from across the UK fought together in shared regiments, kids from the cities were shipped all over the place, everyone had to experience roughly the same level of rationing, etc.

Also, a lot of this is inertia / self-perpetuating. Everyone in Britain has been brought up by a pretty similar education system. Everyone has dealt with a similar benefits system, and tax system, etc...
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I'd say economic relationships are the most important thing, and that culture is usually superficial or irrelevant.
Most important in what terms? Practical terms? Certainly. Culture doesn't really matter to you but it matters a lot to most other people.
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Unread 14 Jun 2004, 15:51   #53
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

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Originally Posted by Rumad
Thank god he didn't
Maybe if he had your football team wouldn't be such a joke lol!
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Unread 14 Jun 2004, 15:57   #54
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Most important in what terms? Practical terms? Certainly. Culture doesn't really matter to you but it matters a lot to most other people.
In terms of what the EU does. Labelling regulations and so on. Or currency. I don't mean absolutely. Say Tony wants social policy to be solely the business of nations, then that's cool. But didn't you say yourself you didn't think anything was important for choosing the euro except economic factors?
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Unread 14 Jun 2004, 16:08   #55
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

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Originally Posted by queball
But didn't you say yourself you didn't think anything was important for choosing the euro except economic factors?
I'm not sure what context I said it, if I did.

But these elections are more than just the Euro. And the Euro affects other (political) things. This discussion seems to be about giving some power from the nation state to a centralised European body. That's seems a bit wider than just labelling regulations.

Obviously the state is immoral ra ra ra.
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Unread 14 Jun 2004, 17:31   #56
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumad
1) Very cynical attitude which infact is also hardly true. If you have the agreement of the partis concened (in the instance of chocolate the confectionary manufacturers), self policing is the most effective and cost effective route. Laws complicate what is already a complicated legal framework. The mre rules and reguations, th less flexibl a constitution gets - what happes when the market and the regions change? I bet the legislation wil not change as quick as it was implemented put it that way.
now you are talking about the constitution? you should not mix up regulations about choclate with the constitution. thats a completly diffrent game.
anyway, i stand by my point: if its not binding why should those member states that didnt 100% agree on it implement it? they wont.
now you will ask why should they if they dont want it? simply because thats the only way it can work. you wont always get it your way, but still be better of than without any eu-wide regulations at all.
the rest you said is just as true for natonal laws, does that mean we shouldnt have any national laws?

Quote:
2) If the Euro will destabilise our economy why has the pound strengthened? Your argument lacks supprt here, where as the efect of lowering the value of a currency which makes us relatively rich compared to countries like italy is very real. I was ofcourse talking abut the EMU, and you right it was a different way f doing it, but ostensiblyit was the same thing.
We will see in ten years if it collapses again, but regional differences I think will show weaknesses yet again.
and it also means that your companies will export less goods to italy, which means less jobs and a large trade deficit for the uk. (and less foreign investments, as a mentioned before)
the emu fall apart, because some quite rich people speculated against some of its currencies, which meant that the central banks had to intervene. how exactly can that happen now? sure, the intrest rates wont be perfect for everyone, but its only a question of time before the economies are more or less in synch.
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3) Centralised policy will always detrac frm individuals and a regions view. Its all based around well X don't like it but A,b,c do so we will go on the greater good phillosphy. The trouble is the geater good ofen causes internal upset. Centralised olicy making will never be acceptable when we all have different cultures and customs.

ANd i am not cmparing to ugslavia - just trying to show where forced integration failed.
thats why most of the controls should stay on the regional level, at least about those things that are better to decide at that level. but as i already said, there are aspects of policy that simply require a central goverment.
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Unread 14 Jun 2004, 17:35   #57
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

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Originally Posted by Rumad
well dependson yur point of view. f course we have issues from town to town with national policy, buta t least we see those views fairly heard and represented. The more people that are involved in that process and the less time you have to debate local issues. The problem escalates to a bigger level.
and why shouldnt you be represented on a eu-wide level? it doesnt make much of a difference iif you are one of 60 million or one of 400 million.
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Unread 14 Jun 2004, 18:56   #58
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
People automatically assume if there are two levels of government then one is going to be superior.
Every thing is ok as long as you don't let one government threaten to withhold highway funds if the other government doesn't do what its told. ;-)
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 06:26   #59
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

Before we get too excited about the economic benefits of more active EU participation and integration, let's stop and consider the state of the Euro. It appears as though pretty much all of Europe is disaffected.
Frankly, I'm more worried about turnout.
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 07:49   #60
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

The Euro is only as strong as it is cause G8 took massive sympathy on it and bought masses of it's currency way back when it first started.

It's a false currency imo.
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 08:09   #61
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

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Originally Posted by Evergreen
It's a false currency imo.
False in what sense?

It's value currently isn't dependent (afaik) on continual support, so what's "false" about it?
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 08:21   #62
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evergreen
The Euro is only as strong as it is cause G8 took massive sympathy on it and bought masses of it's currency way back when it first started.

It's a false currency imo.
I would agree completely. The germans are very supprive of the new currency as they wee the EMU, but in reality with so many diverse economies a single curency wil always fail. Standadisaion across so many economies is a dream.
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 08:46   #63
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

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Originally Posted by wu_trax
1) now you are talking about the constitution? you should not mix up regulations about choclate with the constitution. thats a completly diffrent game.
anyway, i stand by my point: if its not binding why should those member states that didnt 100% agree on it implement it? they wont.
now you will ask why should they if they dont want it? simply because thats the only way it can work. you wont always get it your way, but still be better of than without any eu-wide regulations at all.
the rest you said is just as true for natonal laws, does that mean we shouldnt have any national laws?


2) and it also means that your companies will export less goods to italy, which means less jobs and a large trade deficit for the uk. (and less foreign investments, as a mentioned before)
the emu fall apart, because some quite rich people speculated against some of its currencies, which meant that the central banks had to intervene. how exactly can that happen now? sure, the intrest rates wont be perfect for everyone, but its only a question of time before the economies are more or less in synch.

3) thats why most of the controls should stay on the regional level, at least about those things that are better to decide at that level. but as i already said, there are aspects of policy that simply require a central goverment.
1) ok constitution was the wrong word, but my point stands. By forcing law changes you get your desired goal - implementation of a policy, but is that right and effective?

Take social policy. The UK has broad frameworks for social care, but this is not specified. Instead it is run by civil servants in the form of delegated legislation. There are some broad regulations, bu h core f the policy is flexible to allow changes as and when is required. Most directives are so detailed that countries have very little choice but to implement as is.

Also as previously stated laws which require self policing are also very effective. We have spot audits of the work done in these ndustries but we find in a lot of ways self policing to be as effective if not more effective than law and rule changes.

Also take into consideration the amount of years it takes to change laws.

As for what I said being true of natinal laws you are totally correct - hwever if a law is not acceptable locally then its our decision to implement. Currently the EU can force law changes without that choice.

2) what you say is doubtfu since we are mainly owners of companies in less advanced countries these days. We do not rely on UK manufacture anymore as most production is done overseas - we have mainly tertiary functions.

Take Pilkington as an example. A UK company which produces glass. It moved its entire glass production to china - the company still comptes n a worldwide basis, but the production is in china. Same can be said of many steel companies with bases in India and Asia.

As for your arument for the Eur I disagree. Its relatively unstable, much f the consistenc comes from the Euro ****ries uying Euro's t bouy the currency. Also the wrld markets are becoming global - why on earth is it innevitable that Europe wil need a single currency?

UK currency is stable and in no need of support. I see no need to join the Euro.

3) So you want your cake and eat it? You want integration on politics and other issues, but then have localised decision making bodies as well?

In the UK we have councils which govern local issues n a region by region basis and it works. However without Full integration it would mean we have 3 tiers of administration in the UK. Not nly do I perceive this as a total waste of time, but also means issues which the UK finds nationally important may not be addressed correctly and maybe even forced to have a rule change which is contrary to what these issues are.

It wont be possible to have a half integration lie you suggest. All it will do is make a mammouth uncontrollable beast of administration and bureaucracy which will jus stifle decisions for each country.

Michael Howard was on BBC news this morning. He pointed out that with voting for UKIP the British people had spokn and there was no mandate for further integration. He also pointe dou that we ca have efective trading links without encroaching on central beliefs of each country. Now while I am no conservative i DO agree with what he said. Full integration is nothing more than a fancy and true integration will never occur due to international tensions.
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 08:48   #64
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evergreen
The Euro is only as strong as it is cause G8 took massive sympathy on it and bought masses of it's currency way back when it first started.

It's a false currency imo.
there was a short but strong intervention when the euro was in danger to fall below 80 us-cents, but that was a while ago.
but i agree in so far as to say that the euro isnt strong, it isnt, the dollar is weak. but in the end that doesnt make much of a difference.
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 08:49   #65
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

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Originally Posted by wu_trax
and why shouldnt you be represented on a eu-wide level? it doesnt make much of a difference iif you are one of 60 million or one of 400 million.
The Uk has aroun 80 million people actually not 60 (was 60 million in around 1988 )

I do think we should be represented on a Eu basis - by our government - however I think we shuld have cntrol over what issues we make into laws and the way that issues are dealt with - nt a centralised decision making body.
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 08:50   #66
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
there was a short but strong intervention when the euro was in danger to fall below 80 us-cents, but that was a while ago.
but i agree in so far as to say that the euro isnt strong, it isnt, the dollar is weak. but in the end that doesnt make much of a difference.
It doesn't amke any difference at the moment, but it will become an issue later on if the dollar strengthens,
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 08:53   #67
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

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Originally Posted by Rumad
It doesn't amke any difference at the moment, but it will become an issue later on if the dollar strengthens,
and how should that happen in the next few years? the us has to attract $1-2 bn of foreign investments every day, just to keep the exchange rates as they are (and that long term investments, the investors will never get them back).
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 09:24   #68
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumad
The Uk has aroun 80 million people
Erm...no.

60,094,648 (July 2003 est.) (from http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/uk.html)
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 10:23   #69
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumad
Take social policy. The UK has broad frameworks for social care, but this is not specified. Instead it is run by civil servants in the form of delegated legislation. There are some broad regulations, bu h core f the policy is flexible to allow changes as and when is required. Most directives are so detailed that countries have very little choice but to implement as is.
"Most directives"? That's a fairly sweeping statement. Why should the EU be any less reasonable with regard to delegating law the the UK government?

Social policy is the right example, ie, an area we don't want the EU to mess with. But that doesn't generalise. There are some issues where it's best to negotiate Empire-wide rules and some where it's best to delegate to a national level (mainly cos of self-propogating factors like Dante suggests?). Wikipedia tells me there's a word for this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity.

I just don't understand, at an emotional level, why people are so eager to defend the autonomy of the British parliament. At least Dante's politicophobia is understandable.
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 10:35   #70
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
I just don't understand, at an emotional level, why people are so eager to defend the autonomy of the British parliament. At least Dante's politicophobia is understandable.
Nationalism is one of the strongest things people identify with I guess.

On a crude level would you be surprised if Catholics didn't want a Muslim as Pope?
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 10:41   #71
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

Well yeah, infallible is infallible, you can't really argue with God's choice.

So how does this commie power thing work anyway? Politicans and managers and so on promote class interests instead of doing their job objectively, and so every social class only becomes liberated when they are properly represented? Pls don't recommend Gramsci.
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 10:55   #72
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
I just don't understand, at an emotional level, why people are so eager to defend the autonomy of the British parliament. At least Dante's politicophobia is understandable.
For some it isn't so much an objection to the surrendering of autonomy itslf, as an objection to the entity to which autonomy is being surrendered. The fact that someone is neutral/favourable towards world government in general does not necessititate that they will be sympathetic towards a specfic attempt at world government, such as the EU or UN.
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 10:58   #73
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
So how does this commie power thing work anyway? Politicans and managers and so on promote class interests instead of doing their job objectively
Objectivity vs class-interests is a false dichotomy here. Managers are paid to do a specific job. In most heirarchies they report to another manager who reports (ultimately) to the Directors. They're ultimately responsible to the board (who obviously are the owners, or are representatives for the owners). If a manager was to promote any interest above that of the owners they would be sacked. If Directors act in (say) moral or political interests and don't maximise shareholder value they can held legally liable. So them acting objectively does mean representing class interests.
Quote:
and so every social class only becomes liberated when they are properly represented?
It's more about ultimately eliminating class by eliminating differences in relations to the means of production (property and stuff).

What happens before this is debatable. I'd seek to fulfill Marx's "capitalism creates it's own gravediggers" prophecy by undermining capitalism via stuff like open source, copyright infringement, civil disobedience, etc. As I mentioned previously, I think Mao had a good idea with his "replace the functions of the state" ethos. In the longer term, the only justified government is self-government. That goes for nations, communities, neighbourhoods and ultimately individuals.

The Bolsheviks want to reverse the machinery of the system by empowering the working class. This doesn't sit particularly well with my libertarian views though.
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 11:04   #74
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

The open source movement is an excellent example of why capitalist intellectual property/contract laws are fundamentally a good idea, so how exactly it can 'undermine' capitalism is beyond me. It's like claiming that the Jewish kibbutz undermine capitalism.
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 11:20   #75
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The open source movement is an excellent example of why capitalist intellectual property/contract laws are fundamentally a good idea
I don't really see how but OK.
Quote:
so how exactly it can 'undermine' capitalism is beyond me. It's like claiming that the Jewish kibbutz undermine capitalism.
In the longer term, it reduces dependence on products which are bought and sold. Similarly, a good way to "undermine" the state would be to provide the same services the state provides.

One of the key things people ask if you talk about moving past the current system is is "Oh, but how am I going to get x" (where x is some desirable good they get from said system). If people see they can get software outside of "capitalist" (corporate really but whatever) channels a non-capitalist model looks a lot more realistic. Similarly, do you think people would be as willing to pay taxes to the state if their police / health / etc was all provided privately?

Why do I sell my labour for 36 hours a week? Ultimately (if we ignore debts and stuff) it's because I want various things. If I could obtain these things without payment, I wouldn't need to sell my labour, or certainly not in the same fashion or same amount.
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 11:29   #76
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
In the longer term, it reduces dependence on products which are bought and sold.
How would this be undermining capitalism? How exactly are you defining the term here?


Quote:
Why do I sell my labour for 36 hours a week? Ultimately (if we ignore debts and stuff) it's because I want various things. If I could obtain these things without payment, I wouldn't need to sell my labour, or certainly not in the same fashion or same amount.
Great, go steal a car.
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 11:37   #77
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
How would this be undermining capitalism? How exactly are you defining the term here?
I meant undermine the underpinnings of the system in place. To explain again, one of the key arguments against change is "look at the stuff we've got". If we can get the same stuff without capitalism then it's one less argument in favour. It's not a direct instant thing, it's about shifting attitudes over time.

If you mean define capitalism, then I'm talking about the system based around private property ownership, selling your labour, etc. In the context today, I'm also talking about the state mixed in with that. I'm not talking about theoretical idea being somehow weakened (but that doesn't really interest me as that's not in place)
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Great, go steal a car.
I don't want a car.
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 11:41   #78
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I meant undermine the underpinnings of the system in place. To explain again, one of the key arguments against change is "look at the stuff we've got". If we can get the same stuff without capitalism then it's one less argument in favour. It's not a direct instant thing, it's about shifting attitudes over time.
It's the "without capitalism" part which I believe you are mistaken about. Open source software is a perfect example of capitalism and intellectual property laws, not some kind of 'alternative' to it. The GNU licenses are fundamentally based around contract law and property ownership., namely the right of the creator to dictate what other people may and may not do with his creation.
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 11:47   #79
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
The entire concept is fundamentally based around contract law and property ownership.
I don't really agree. Maybe the GPL is a good example of contract law but that's the not only form of open-source (by any means).

Plus, I'm still convinced (from reading Stallman elsewhere) that the GPL is a clever use of the system, not an endorsement of it. It seems the GPL is an attempt to "enshrine" certain freedoms into a contract as it's not enshrined in the constitution or whatever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GPL
The licenses for most software are designed to take away your freedom to share and change it. By contrast, the GNU General Public License is intended to guarantee your freedom to share and change free software--to make sure the software is free for all its users.
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 11:56   #80
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

I disagree with that and don't really have much respect for Stallman's opinion in general, but its not really relevant.

I think the key point would be that if the capitalist system provides the perfect enviornment for open-source software to thrive (which it does), how could you claim that the success of opensource software would be a refutation rather than an endorsement of the system? The advocate of open source software is today provided with a near-perfect enviornment in which to operate on his principles - there doesn't seem to be any reason for him to advocate the abolishment of copyright altogether, other than his vague feeling that he somehow has the 'right' to the creations of others regardless of their wishes. Today, a person is free to produce all the open source software he chooses (leaving aside issues regarding software patents, which is something else entirely), and to freely use the open source software which others have chosen to write. Ths is not 'anti-capitalist', it _is_ capitalist.
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 12:04   #81
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I disagree with that and don't really have much respect for Stallman's opinion in general, but its not really relevant.
Well it's relevant as far as he's quite involved in the whole GNU thing.
Quote:
other than his vague feeling that he somehow has the 'right' to the creations of others regardless of their wishes.
More to do with others don't have the rights to interfere with his private dealings tbh. I've never considered a "right" to other peoples creations, and I doubt anyone else has. You can continue strawmanning that as the position though, if it turns you on.
Quote:
Today, a person is free to produce all the open source software they wish, and to use the open source software which others have chosen to write. Ths is not 'anti-capitalist', it _is_ capitalist.
I'd say it was non-capitalist as it's nothing really to do with capitalism per se. It's something outside the traditional economy. In this context, a resurggence of even petty-capitalism could be anti-corporate in nature. It depends on the style of the revival and the ethos behind it. When you have one dominant model of exchange / interaction then pretty much anything else is a challenge to it.

Also, it remains to be seen as to how free programmers are to create open source software in light of the DMCA, etc.
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 12:08   #82
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

open source isnt exactly based on the principle to make as much money as possible with your work, is it?

and why are software patents, which probably will destroy the whole open source idea, a completly different issue?such a thing could only happen in a capitalist enviroment.
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 13:14   #83
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Erm...no.

60,094,648 (July 2003 est.) (from http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/uk.html)
Last night BBC news said that ITV had the biggst figures ever for watching a Televised football match in the uk with 25% of the total viewing audience of 20.7 million.

So thast where i got that from
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 13:16   #84
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I've never considered a "right" to other peoples creations, and I doubt anyone else has. You can continue strawmanning that as the position though, if it turns you on..
It's not a strawman, it's exactly what people like Stallman are advocating. I think this kind of thing is easier to illustrate with a concrete example, so I'm going to take Bill Watterson, the creator of Calvin and Hobbes. I'm not sure if you're famaliar with C&H - its a cartoon strip (in my opinion the best one ever made) featuring a young child and his pet/toy tiger, and is peppered with philosophical observations and general cultural criticism. The exact details aren't important, but you should read it if you haven't already, since it is truly brilliant. Anyway, I digress.

I think that part of the reason that C&H was so good is that Watterson was fairly unique amongst cartoonists, in that he actually considered his work to be an artform, and himself as an artist. His goal was not primarilly to make money, to become famous, or to create some kind of Ultimate Comic Franchise - it was to produce the best cartoons that he possible could, in the way he wished to produce them. His decisions throughout his career reflect this, as on many occassions he chose to directly shun the former 3 goals in favour of the latter.

Watterson generally avoided publicitly and rarely gave interviews, but there was one he did in the 80's which you can find here, where he discusses cartooning and what it means to him. The following quote in particular stands out:

Quote:
Christie: I would guess... there is probably considerable resistance to a strip that doesn't have a lot of immediate, apparent marketing potential.

Watterson: I think United really looks for the marketing more than some of the other syndicates, and they saw Hobbes as having marketing potential, so I don't think that was it. I was later offered the chance to incorporate Robotman into my strip. There they had envisioned a character as a product--toy lines, television show, everything--and they wanted a strip written around the character. They thought that maybe I could stick it in my strip, working with Calvin's imagination or something. They didn't really care too how much I did it, just so long as the character remained intact and would be a very major character...And I turned them down. It really went against my idea of what a comic strip should be.
I'm not interested in slamming United Features here. Keep in mind that at the time, it was the only syndicate that had expressed any interest in my work. I remain grateful for their early attention. But there's a professional issue here. They told me that if I was to insert Robotman into my strip, they would reconsider it, and because the licensing was already in production, my strip would stand a better chance of being accepted. Not knowing if Calvin and Hobbes would ever go anywhere, it was difficult to turn down another chance at syndication. But I really recoiled at the idea of drawing somebody else's character. It's cartooning by committee, and I have a moral problem with that. It's not art then.


Now, to get back on topic, at the height of this comic's popularity, Watterson continually denied requests to license his characters to corporations for merchandising purposes. Although he stood to gain a fortune by allowing others to sell t-shirts/lunchboxes/etc decorated with his characters, he believed that to do this would constitute 'selling out', and would seriouly compromise the integrity of his work. He talked explicitly about this topic in an essay here. I think the whole thing deserves to be read since it provides an excellent moral defence of copyright/trademarks, but since it's a bit long I shall quote some of the relevant bits.

Quote:
Of course, to be fair to the syndicates, most cartoonists are happy to sell out, too. Although not to the present extent, licensing has been around since the beginning of the comic strip, and many cartoonists have benefitted from the increased exposure. The character merchandise not only provides the cartoonist with additional income, but it puts his characters in new markets and has the potential to broaden the base of the strip and attract new readers. I'm not against all licensing for all strips. Under the control of a conscientious cartoonist, certain kinds of strips can be licensed tastefully and with respect to the creation. That said, I'll add that it's very rarely done that way. With the kind of money in licensing nowadays, it's not surprising many cartoonists are as eager as the syndicates for easy millions, and are willing to sacrifice the heart and soul of the strip to get it. I say it's not surprising, but it is disappointing.

Some very good strips have been cheapened by licensing. Licensed products, of course, are incapable of capturing the subtleties of the original strip, and the merchandise can alter the public perception of the strip, especially when the merchandise is aimed at a younger audience than the strip is. The deeper concerns of some strips are ignored or condensed to fit the simple gag requirements of mugs and T-shirts. In addition, no one cartoonist has the time to write and draw a daily strip and do all the work of a licensing program. Inevitably, extra assistants and business people are required, and having so many cooks in the kitchen usually encourages a blandness to suit all tastes. Strips that once had integrity and heart become simply cute as the business moguls cash in. Once a lot of money and jobs are riding on the status quo, it gets harder to push the experiments and new directions that keep a strip vital. Characters lose their believability as they start endorsing major companies and lend their faces to bedsheets and boxer shorts. The appealing innocence and sincerity of cartoon characters is corrupted when they use those qualities to peddle products. One starts to question whether characters say things because they mean it or because their sentiments sell T-shirts and greeting cards. Licensing has made some cartoonists extremely wealthy, but at a considerable loss to the precious little world they created. I don't buy the argument that licensing can go at full throttle without affecting the strip. Licensing has become a monster. Cartoonists have not been very good at recognizing it, and the syndicates don't care.
Now, the impression that I get from all this is a man with truly heroic sense of integrity and ferocious pride in his own work. I have no qualms whatsoever about granting him the exclusive right to decide who can do what with his creations, and I find it difficult to view anyone who would deny him this as being anything other than evil. If someone does not want to witness things which they have created being used in ways which offends them, their wishes should be respected.

However, what someone like Stallman would see here (regardless of what his expressed views would be; I'm talking about what his ideas regarding intellectual property logically commit him to) would be a selfish man doing his very best to deny others the 'freedom' to use the characters he falsely believes are 'his'. In Stallman's opinion, Watterson would have no right whatsoever to express control over 'his' creation, since 'his' work belongs equally to every member of humanity. How dare Watterson tell corporations that they have do not have the freedom to publish school lunchboxes peppered with drawings of 'his' characters! Not even that, but he feels he has the right to use the government to prevent other people from drawing their own stories with 'his' characters and selling them - just who on earth does this man think he is?!

Indeed, Stallman would probably find it despicable that Watterson, as a cartoonist, is "claiming a special connection with the characters he has drawn, and going on to assert that, as a result, his desires and interests concerning these characters simply outweigh those of anyone else---or even those of the whole rest of the world" (to paraphrase from the GNU website). He would probably also claim that "whether you sell merchandise depicting characters Watterson created affects you directly and him only indirectly. Whether you give a copy to your friend affects you and your friend much more than it affects Watterson. Watterson shouldn't have the power to tell you not to do these things. No one should." (same site)

The concept of genuine selfish pride in one's work seems entirely alien to these people, which I think has played a large part in their getting the whole concept of freedom completely backwards.

Rememer kids, you "deserve" free calvin and hobbes lunchboxes, and anyone who tells you otherwise is infringing upon your freedom! (oh hay its a quote from gnu.org again!).

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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 13:30   #85
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

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Originally Posted by queball
"Most directives"? That's a fairly sweeping statement. Why should the EU be any less reasonable with regard to delegating law the the UK government?

Social policy is the right example, ie, an area we don't want the EU to mess with. But that doesn't generalise. There are some issues where it's best to negotiate Empire-wide rules and some where it's best to delegate to a national level (mainly cos of self-propogating factors like Dante suggests?). Wikipedia tells me there's a word for this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity.

I just don't understand, at an emotional level, why people are so eager to defend the autonomy of the British parliament. At least Dante's politicophobia is understandable.
I gave social policy as an example of delegated legislation - directives I have seen are often very detailed in there written documents. Take for example the directives on health and safety. Now they have to be written into UK law to be policy which means it has to be debated at the commons, passed to the lords and then its passed. The only problem with this is the timescales involved and the fact that once someting is written into law it has to be changed as and when things are needed. Now with the example of Health and safety I don't necessarily think this is a good thing. While general guidelines are required to ensure that companies take it seriously, I think that HSE should have the flexibiliy to change things as an when required. However we cannot do that since we may well contravene te directives sent t us from the EU.

Now this is but one example there are others and no doubt I could recite a few more examples, but it was meant to be general so that you could see the theory in what I am saying rather than get bogged down by inividuals correcting the examples which innevitably happens.

Why am I so eager to defend the UK as a independent political body? Simple answer is I see no valid reason to join. All I see is bureacracy and administration and rules and standards enforced from a central body which has little relevance to me or my country and can impede the sale of certain goods.

If there is no benefit except this central superpower what on earth is the advantage?
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Unread 15 Jun 2004, 13:42   #86
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Re: Eur Skeptics te new voice of Europe?

I am familiar with Calvin and Hobbes and indeed own (lol) all the compendium books. I've also read BW's comments regarding his disputes with United and indeed his other comments.

Watterson (to an extent) is right; precisely because there is copyright does licensed products cheapen comics. If I see a comic strip plastered over a lunchbox (or T-Shirt) then my enjoyment of the strip is reduced (to an extent, it varies). If they're shilling some worthless corporate product then it's even worse. However, if copyright didn't exist I wouldn't feel this way. If I see a cartoon version of Romeo and Juliet I don't feel any less respect for Shakespeare becuase he had nothing to do with this monstrosity.

I do however feel less respect for someone like Lucas when he makes shitty Star War games because I know he authorised them (indirectly, I doubt he plays every one of them).

Similarly, there are t-shirts with Calvin and Hobbes on them. Watterson makes reference to one of them in his 10 Year Anniversary collection (I think, I don't have the book to hand). They're just illicit / "pirated" ones - generally showing C&H smoking dope. Watterson didn't speak of them with any bitterness in his comments (from memory) - no-one is going to see C&H t-shirts with them smoking dope and think BW has sold out (or whatever).

I'm not sure why you keep trying to twist this into a "vs socialism" type argument here. No-one is saying I "deserve" a Calvin and Hobbes lunch box or anything similar. It's just the idea you can own an idea seems utterly absurd to many (including me). The same applies to songs, jokes, speeches, etc.

I remember a good friend of mine when I was in primary school. He was a really excellent cartoonist and used to draw his own comics all the time. But his favourite strip was C&H. His renditions of Calvin were amazing (admittedly I was 10 and may have been easily impressed) and he used to do them all the time. He did an unbelievably cool drawing for me on one of my school books. Now taking the copyright argument to it's logical conclusion, on that day he stole from Bill Watterson and I am equally guilty for receiving stolen goods. Thank god we were never severely punished.

btw : I find it quite curious that you (seemingly) oppose laws against slander, but support laws on trademarks?

p.s. I agree that C&H is the best cartoon ever.
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