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Unread 15 Dec 2015, 23:21   #1
Tiamat101
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A 3rd Option for R65

So I was asked to propose a set of R65, and so I have.

http://speedgame.planetarion.com/man...n=586547040237

The stats are NOT finished yet, however they are close. Some feedback would be nice. Flames and non-constructive criticism will be ignored. This set is with Steal ships die to steal.
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Unread 16 Dec 2015, 03:32   #2
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

Cat CO can not roid zik DE. http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...eo6olwnsj3v3gk
Cat CR can not roid zik DE. http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...lz1m483faztrs7

Ter CO can not roid zik DE. http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...s2nhuudotdhda7
Ter BS can not roid zik DE. http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...8p8amghc5buedj

Xan FI can not roid zik DE. http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...hh230yim9cbuk3
Xan FR can not roid zik DE. http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...25d0awq1yhvwve

Zik DE can not roid zik DE. http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...jliowkcf1a2s2x
Zik CR can roid zik DE(if you want a redcalc). http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...yucvdzhncy7vr8

Etd DE can roid zik DE(redcalc). http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...rxnxp3slljdmkm
Etd DE can not roid zik DE. http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...w2mut93d4a69ed

Typical Tiamata stats anyone?
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Unread 16 Dec 2015, 03:51   #3
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Cat CO can not roid zik DE. [url]

Zik DE can not roid zik DE. http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...jliowkcf1a2s2x

Typical Tiamata stats anyone?
so full off it.

http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...s8uputub9ueoyr

Don't say that a class that doesn't target itself can't roid itself.
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Unread 16 Dec 2015, 04:17   #4
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

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so full off it.

http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...s8uputub9ueoyr

Don't say that a class that doesn't target itself can't roid itself.
We looking at the same calc?
Wernt you one of the R60 fanboys too? thought you lost your access in here since back then
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Unread 16 Dec 2015, 04:36   #5
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...pawd3pwn1i3xou

Fi can roid a Fort De fort just fine, with Xan faking on 50+ dists

Yes Co can not land on a Zik De,

Xan can't land vs Zik/Ter crbs, but can if the ziks build normal def ship Corsar. http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...m22c3f74g5adrb

Etd De solo's vs zik http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...3k0rgl0zcc8w6w

Cr Cant land vs De its one of their big weakness

Bs Lands Vs Zik De with out Cr(which is 0 ally def) http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...s2u7gnrbm4hysz

You want to play Fort all round by all means do it. What can Zik De hit with that fleet? Nothing?

http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...e8dpvjt7z1eisy Vs Cat Co?
http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...zbkazwme23lt5y Vs Ter Co
http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...iczebgzha9lkze Vs Xan

http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...v8pgij52h3a3st Zik Cr? Give me a break

http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...pougrtrj552u61 Etd?

Really, I understand your bias to the idea that I tend to make Zik "awsome" However if i had done that, don't you think i'd have given Zik De a better place to attack into? or even better a team up that makes it roid 5 races all the time? At least in these stats if a solo signs up they have options to play.
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Unread 16 Dec 2015, 04:40   #6
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
We looking at the same calc?
Wernt you one of the R60 fanboys too? thought you lost your access in here since back then
You and your FACINATION with R60, which to most people wasn't a terrible round. Just because Ult won by 60m, because no one stepped up to challenge that doesn't make the round a dud. 60 man Bows alliance, didnt want to do anything about it?
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Unread 16 Dec 2015, 05:27   #7
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Xan can't land vs Zik/Ter crbs, but can if the ziks build normal def ship Corsar. http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...m22c3f74g5adrb
Why on earth would you build Corairs if the option with Cutter/Pirate is better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...pawd3pwn1i3xou
FI can roid a Fort De fort just fine, with Xan faking on 50+ dists
Making calcs with imaginative roiding fleet isnt a way to defend any "fleet option"
And i dont remeber when going 50+ dists was a valid option for any allie strat.

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
I allready went over ETD with my calc.
http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...3d32ikrm7a3ptv


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Bs Lands Vs Zik De with out Cr(which is 0 ally def) http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...s2u7gnrbm4hysz
I allready went over BS soloing into DE.
http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...w2mut93d4a69ed
http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...8p8amghc5buedj

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
You want to play Fort all round by all means do it. What can Zik De hit with that fleet? Nothing?
Really, I understand your bias to the idea that I tend to make Zik "awsome" However if i had done that, don't you think i'd have given Zik De a better place to attack into? or even better a team up that makes it roid 5 races all the time? At least in these stats if a solo signs up they have options to play.
There will always be those allies that simply dont defend(Åsgard/HR/ND), and you can simply just roid them untill youve outgrown the rest enough to be able to land anything at you.
For top allies, they are allready sending more def fleets and att fleets, and come tick600 allies like HR/ND are just gonna crash and troll for fun.

R55:
Allie ranked 1 and 2 had a very similiar strat.
R60:
Similiar situation allie rank 1 and 2 had the similiar strat.
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Unread 16 Dec 2015, 05:46   #8
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post


There will always be those allies that simply dont defend(Åsgard/HR/ND), and you can simply just roid them untill youve outgrown the rest enough to be able to land anything at you.
For top allies, they are allready sending more def fleets and att fleets, and come tick600 allies like HR/ND are just gonna crash and troll for fun.

R55:
Allie ranked 1 and 2 had a very similiar strat.
R60:
Similiar situation allie rank 1 and 2 had the similiar strat.
Sounds like something you should try and fix. Because according to that logic any strat can work. If you, BB, want to make bows go De fort next round with my stats then so be it. You will be the least attacked, 500 roid planets in the universe. Your gals will be t20 at best, and you will have maybe 2 planets inside t100. You look at things in such a wrong perspective. Forting will ALWAYS be a thing. It just so happens that this set of stats has Zik as the fort planet instead of Terrans. If all you have to say is "whine whine whine, zik is op" then please get out of my thread. However if you have a suggested Changes to be made and reason for making them then by all means continue.

I've suggested to you many changes you can make for your set of stats, and given valid reasons behind the changes, yet you have made no progress on a set that no one will ever play. You think R60 was bad stats. R65 will be worse if you don't do something about your stats.
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Unread 16 Dec 2015, 06:17   #9
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

Well the first thing i would start at would be making viper EMP instead of "Normal".
Wich cath player wants a normal ship with low init?
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Unread 16 Dec 2015, 06:30   #10
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

So make Viper Emp so that cath co, your love child, can roid every race?
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Unread 16 Dec 2015, 06:36   #11
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
So make Viper Emp so that cath co, your love child, can roid every race?
Thats the whole point with going cath? So you can solo.
Every alliances has cath players(usualy), so its a buff who is gonna be good for all.
Against DE forts they will be "screwedish" anyway, no?
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Unread 16 Dec 2015, 06:45   #12
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

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Thats the whole point with going cath? So you can solo.
Every alliances has cath players(usualy), so its a buff who is gonna be good for all.
Against DE forts they will be "screwedish" anyway, no?
This is part of you problem with stats making. The idea that cath is the go to solo take over the world, do what ever i want race is crap. Yes they are effecient with their ships, and they usually have good targeting that allows them to attack 4 of 5 races. Because of this they make perfect Solo's and perfect support planets, cousins, def bots, multis what ever the term you want to use is.
Because of this I wanted to make Cath specifically weak to Zik De, but not weak to Etd De. This also goes along with I wanted De to be strong Vs Cr. Cath has most rounds Co and Cr fleets, so in order to make De strong vs cr I had to isolate one of the fleets Vs Cath Co(zik) and the other vs Cath Cr(etd) Which i was able to wonderfully with Viper at init 8. Now an arguement could be made to make Pegasus init 8 and Viper init 7, as to allow Cath to full roid into Ters solo, but I am not sure im ok with letting that happen. The Co team can roid into Ter's as both co fire before Sylph, but only Ter Co fires before Pegasus. And Actually viper is my least worrying ship in Cath. Beetle scares me more, as its a 100% counter Vs Xan. Covers both Fi and Fr, with adequet amps you will be able to cover Xan's almost entirely with Beetles.

These are all things that you could have brough into this conversation instead you decided to be anti-constructive and just say, " Zik De OP! Long Live Rainbows"

Changes: Dropped Eff on Zik de a bit across the board.
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Unread 16 Dec 2015, 09:04   #13
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

This where u get it all upside down.
Why would i want to go cath CO?

http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...ph2odfrbysvus6

Get roided by:
Cath CO
Cath CR
Xan FI
Xan FR
Ter CO
Ter BS

Dont get roided by:
Zik/Etd

-----

Going cath CO or CR.
Just going by pure class strat choices, what options do i have?

Ter/Cat CO
66% in CO for attack (can basicly only roid other ter/cat) = Not good
16% in anti CO def (only synergy is Spider/Sylph) = The worst anti CO def
16% in anti CR/BS def(no synergy) = One of the worst anti CR/BS def

Zik/Cat CR
66% in CR for attack (can land xan FI, cat/ter CO) = Not very good
16% in anti CO def (only synergy is Spider/Corsairs) = The worst anti CO def
16% in anti CR/BS def (synergy Locust/Buccaneer + attack fleet) = Not that bad

Feel free to give me other solution on how to spread the value equaly to cover all classes, and tell me why i would even look at Cat as a option.
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Unread 16 Dec 2015, 10:36   #14
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

Why did you choose not to include SKs?
What are your reasons for letting fire Mantis fire T3 at Co?

I'm seeing same-init stealing between Ranger and Sair.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Typical Tiamata stats anyone?
Quote:
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Wernt you one of the R60 fanboys too? thought you lost your access in here since back then
Always with the namecalling.
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Unread 16 Dec 2015, 23:28   #15
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Why did you choose not to include SKs?
What are your reasons for letting fire Mantis fire T3 at Co?

I'm seeing same-init stealing between Ranger and Sair.


Thanks for catching Investor and Corsair, that has ben fixed. As for the Mantis T3 Co at 48%, I wanted to give Caths a viable fort addition as Spiders are pre-emp'd by beetles. I don't want to give cath a fr or De that hits co as it would lead to direct abuse in forts IMO. So in order to make cath not "useless" Mantis t3 Co. The direct implications are for stopping Ter Co's enough that pegs/interceptors can fire at them to cause recalls.

In previous renditions of Cath Hitting hulls 3 -> Hulls 1 they have either been kill or at T1/T2. My plan is to just give another "option"


As for the No Sk's I havent decided yet, I will likely add them in after i get the stats more balanced. Ter Cr/ Cath Resouce BS/ Xan Bs/ Zik Resource Bs/ Etd Cr
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Unread 16 Dec 2015, 23:44   #16
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
\

Going cath CO or CR.
Just going by pure class strat choices, what options do i have?

Ter/Cat CO
66% in CO for attack (can basicly only roid other ter/cat) = Not good
16% in anti CO def (only synergy is Spider/Sylph) = The worst anti CO def
16% in anti CR/BS def(no synergy) = One of the worst anti CR/BS def

Zik/Cat CR
66% in CR for attack (can land xan FI, cat/ter CO) = Not very good
16% in anti CO def (only synergy is Spider/Corsairs) = The worst anti CO def
16% in anti CR/BS def (synergy Locust/Buccaneer + attack fleet) = Not that bad

Feel free to give me other solution on how to spread the value equaly to cover all classes, and tell me why i would even look at Cat as a option.

http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...w8znlhgi1mqsym

Ter Cat Co/BS Fleet Builds. Yes I Am aware the Ter's do not hit Bs with that build, and that Caths only hit Co as a T3 on mantis. But that is a fleet build. It covers 4 classes nicely and struggles with 2. Which is a choice you make when you pick a strat, You strong vs some, and weak vs others.

http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...pwv9tb9rgeba90

Cat Zik Cr. Again you have nice neet cover vs Fi/bs/fr Decent cover vs De. And ally def can cover Co. So you just weak to Cr, which you can fix with moving value around in your def fleets to meta vs who you are war with. Locusts fire before zik Cr so you just need flack.

Cath is Strong and until you realize that viper being normal is much better than it being Emp your opinions of stats analysis should not be considered. You still live in a world where if the calc is red its not covered and use more def fleets to make it green.

The idea that you don't think that Cath will be able to roid Xan is also amusing to me, Maybe if they are big value'd Fr planet you wont be able to, but that's the way i've made things. There are a lot of elements in this set that you fail to see because your so fixed on the fact that Viper is normal instead of Emp.
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Unread 17 Dec 2015, 04:16   #17
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

Without doing any realisticly fleet setup calcs, i do think hulls 3 needs to be slightly nerfed. Atleast at some races.

And really amazed that most races (if not all) roids themselves the best. This is something i try to avoid and go for the complete opposite direction.
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Unread 17 Dec 2015, 05:32   #18
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

Well now that is valuable piece of advice. Cr bs too strong offensively or defensivly?
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Unread 17 Dec 2015, 06:02   #19
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

Made a few Changes:
Drop eff on Most terran across the board.

Phoenix Init -> 5
Clipper Init -> 6
Scarab Guns increased.
Drake T1 Bs T2 Co Class Fr
Pirate T1 De T2 FR Class Cr
Cutter T1 Bs Class Cr
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Unread 17 Dec 2015, 12:59   #20
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

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Investor
Uh, yeah, that one.
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Unread 17 Dec 2015, 18:50   #21
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

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Well now that is valuable piece of advice. Cr bs too strong offensively or defensivly?
The way i see it that is two sides of the same coin, the best defensive ships can easily be the best offensive ships. And more now than before, after stealing ships through covert operations.
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Unread 17 Dec 2015, 19:41   #22
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

Any particular ships you see that are, "abuseable"
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Unread 18 Dec 2015, 22:15   #23
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

Made a few changes, Ready to call these Done.

Swapped T1 and T2 on Dragon
Added Dervish to Zik, Bs T1 Cr Steal.
Moved Spectre -> Banshee Co T1 Fr
Swapped T1 and T2 on Bomber
Added T2 on Rev, Cr

Changed a Bunch of Eff's
ATM waiting for Appoco, to reset the server so the calc will reflect all changes made. These stats are 99% final, need a few pairs of eyes to look them over to make sure i didn't put any typo's.
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Unread 21 Dec 2015, 07:28   #24
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

Last chance for any Feedback or commentary. I will hand them over to the stats commitee tomorrow.
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Unread 21 Dec 2015, 12:35   #25
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

Sabre Frigate Fi Bs - Steal 21 1 42 40 87 255 366 350 432 411 Etd

Sabre has some weird M/C/E cost spread. Probably not intended this way?
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Unread 21 Dec 2015, 22:46   #26
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
Sabre Frigate Fi Bs - Steal 21 1 42 40 87 255 366 350 432 411 Etd

Sabre has some weird M/C/E cost spread. Probably not intended this way?
Thanks for that no, not even. It was emp before and i changed it to steal but i Fat thumbed the cost.


Phoenix init 5->4
Range T2 Co
Interceptor T2 none
Mantis cost lowered
Sabre cost fixed
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Unread 22 Dec 2015, 20:52   #27
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Re: A 3rd Option for R65

Attacks

Ter co:
Can hit Terran with the correct Ratio.
Can Hit Cath With proper Cath Ratios
Can NOT hit Xan
Can Hit Non-De Fort Zik, but not De based Zik
Can hit Non-De Fort Etd, but not De based Etd

Ter Bs:
Can hit Terran with Drake>Syren
Can Not hit Caths with Locust, Can hit Cath Cr with proper ratio.
Can hit Xan with out hulls3
Can Not hit Zik
Can hit Non-de based Etd.

Cath Co
Can hit Terran with Sylph but not Pegasus
Can hit Cath
Can hit lower Value Xans or Xan fi
Can hit Zik Fi, not De base Zik
Can hit non-De based Etd


Cath Cr
Can Not hit Ter
Can Hit Cath
Can Xan with proper Ratio
Can hit Zik with proper Ratio
Can hit Etd with proper Ratio


Xan Fi
Can hit Ter
Can hit lower Value Cath
Can Not hit Fr based Xan
Can hit non-De Based Zik of Equal or Greater Value
Can hit non-De based Etd


Xan Fr
Can hit Ter without hulls 3
Can hit Cath
Can Hit Xan
Can hit Zik
Can not hit Etd


Zik De
Can Not hit Terran
Can Hit Cath
Can Not hit Xan
Can Hit zik w/o hulls 3
Can Not hit etd

Zik Cr
Can hit Ter w/o Drake
Can Not hit Cath
Can Not hit Xan
Can Hit zik
Can Hit Etd

Etd De
Can Not hit Ter
Can hit Cath
Can Not hit Xan
Can hit Zik
Can not hit etd with hulls 3

Etd Bs
Can Not hit Ter
Can hit Cath w/o Locust
Can Not hit Xan
Can hit zik with out hulls 3
Can Hit Etd
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