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Unread 7 Apr 2015, 12:25   #1
Blue_Esper
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Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Appocomaster has been kind enough to allow me to run my stats on the beta server, so i have made this thread for comments and suggestions.

To begin with i would like to point out a few things that wont change
SKs will be in for all races, i think its an important tool for war time.
all races having 3 pod classes, this helps faking which will improve lands.
all races having an off class ship for each tier, allows for forting for those wishing to fort.

Ive tried to keep a pattern for races
Race Specific:
Ter - High Armor, High EMP res, Low dmg, Medium init
Cat - Med Armor, Medium EMP res, Medium damage, Low init
Xan - Low Armor, Low EMP res, Medium-High damage, Low init
Zik - Med-High Armor, Medium EMP res, High damage, Low init norm / High init steal
Etd - All ships slightly worse than other races ships that are similar
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Unread 7 Apr 2015, 12:52   #2
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

This is a remake of your stats for r58?
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Unread 7 Apr 2015, 13:10   #3
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

pretty much
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Unread 7 Apr 2015, 13:24   #4
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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pretty much
I hated them pretty much, so im gonna let other people comment on them, and look some more at them when theyve been played around with a little more.

I think the main issue was the pod setup, and that ETD/TER were the main issue
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Unread 7 Apr 2015, 13:47   #5
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

well they're quite different
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Unread 7 Apr 2015, 13:50   #6
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
well they're quite different
Just looked at the ETD/TER pods honestly.
Whats the idea of two races having the exact same roid classes?
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Unread 7 Apr 2015, 14:06   #7
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Well according to planetarion lore they're very closely related...
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Unread 7 Apr 2015, 14:15   #8
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Well according to planetarion lore they're very closely related...
Well i cant remember a round where races like ETD/TER shared all roid classes, and imho the fact they are closely related means they should not share all roidclasses.
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Unread 7 Apr 2015, 15:42   #9
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

ok well anyway as irrelevant as that is, all the tweaks are done for the day so i'll let you lot have a look and let me know if theres anything OP
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Unread 9 Apr 2015, 17:02   #10
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Most notable change of the day, changed Ter De to Fr, balanced it out, let me know if you see any other major concerns. then i'll get down to the finer details
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Unread 10 Apr 2015, 22:11   #11
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

So you've made Zik functionally unplayable. Just looking at stats for 5 minutes.

Thief: T1 Co gives it no benefit since Only ter Co hits Fr and Zik stealing into own ziks is pointless. It would be better off T1 fi as its the more damaging threat to Fr.

Buccaneer: There is no reason in giving zik a 1st fire ally def kill ship especially vs CR they want to STEAL cr not kill it. It would be much better if you switch the targeting of Bucc with Clipper so they are killing into a Bs fleet(which they want to steal into) and then are able to steal into Cr's

Still looking at the fi/co matchup to understand how its dynamics works also might want to remove the T2 De on cutlass or corsair zik Co doesnt need2x De targets.
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Unread 11 Apr 2015, 12:28   #12
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

i'd consider adding cr t2 to clippers, but buccs will remain as they are in order for fr to be decent
thief are the only fr class ship to t1 co so that wont change, there's cutlass and viper that are also co hitting fr.
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Unread 11 Apr 2015, 18:21   #13
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Viper is emp and cutlass is again zik. I want to be able to look at a set of stats and not see zik's only roiding targets as cat or zik.
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Unread 11 Apr 2015, 18:25   #14
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Viper is emp and cutlass is again zik. I want to be able to look at a set of stats and not see zik's only roiding targets as cat or zik.
that is usualy the nature of zik.

Either they can roid ETD/CAT, or they are roiding alongside ETD/CAT.
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Unread 11 Apr 2015, 22:24   #15
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
that is usualy the nature of zik.

Either they can roid ETD/CAT, or they are roiding alongside ETD/CAT.
...you seem to have ruled out mentioning Ter/Xan. On purpose?
I have several rounds as zik, solo'd all other races and teamed up with all other races...
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Unread 11 Apr 2015, 22:56   #16
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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...you seem to have ruled out mentioning Ter/Xan. On purpose?
I have several rounds as zik, solo'd all other races and teamed up with all other races...
well Tia stats dont count.
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Unread 12 Apr 2015, 09:33   #17
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
that is usualy the nature of zik.

Either they can roid ETD/CAT, or they are roiding alongside ETD/CAT.
They can be given more low init normal ships to make them solo playable. In this case it does not help that one of the best anti cr ships is zik's own buccaneer so meaning that what is probably zik's main attack option is not able to attack other ziks with it.
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Unread 12 Apr 2015, 10:24   #18
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
They can be given more low init normal ships to make them solo playable. In this case it does not help that one of the best anti cr ships is zik's own buccaneer so meaning that what is probably zik's main attack option is not able to attack other ziks with it.
If they can roid ETD/CAT/ZIK, they are solo playable.
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Unread 12 Apr 2015, 12:41   #19
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

all races can solo in some way or another
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Unread 19 Apr 2015, 00:41   #20
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
all races can solo in some way or another
always liked to solo option,,teaming is unreliable

these stats are good!
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Unread 23 Apr 2015, 20:47   #21
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Any Further Progress?
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Unread 23 Apr 2015, 23:17   #22
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

There has been no comments on the stats.
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Unread 24 Apr 2015, 00:49   #23
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Waiting for ticks to start so I can test out fr/De not hitting fr/de
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Unread 25 Apr 2015, 06:39   #24
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Why do you need ticks to be live to test fr vs de. The calc/ eff's tell you that. No one plays Beta for real, and are you saying that the stats are live enough to the point you'd start the round with them As they are?
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Unread 25 Apr 2015, 11:13   #25
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Waiting for ticks to start so I can test out fr/De not hitting fr/de
Is Fr/De not hitting Fr/De that unusual? It was certainly the case in round 57.
Why shouldn't it work?
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Unread 25 Apr 2015, 11:20   #26
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

I dislike the Tula. 4/5 races have both a Fr and a Bs firing at Cr, so Cat Cr will have to get 80% Tula to compensate. Cr is pretty weak in general: Zik Cr roids nothing, and Xan Cr isn't anything to write home about either. Suggestion: Mara T1 De, T2 Bs. Tula T1 Fr. Roach T1 Bs, T2 De. Spectre Init 8, maybe even 7?

I get what you were trying to do with the 1 off-class ship per metaclass, but unfortunately you seriously misunderstood what makes off-class ships worth building: they have to be better than roiding-class ships at covering defensive holes. In these stats, I could find only one instance of such a ship (Scorpion in a Cat De fleet). In all other instances, there's a ship in a roiding class that performs the function as well or better, and this allows transitioning into a second roiding fleet (fakes!) very easily.

For example: Ter Fr lacks anti-Fr and anti-De. You could either build the Devastator and (the terrible) Dreadnaught, or just get dual Fi/Fr or Fr/Bs attack fleets. Another example: Xan Cr lacks anti-Fi, Anti-Co and anti-Cr. Vsharrak is Xan's only option for anti-Fi.. You could go Peacekeeper for anti-Cr and Ghost for anti-De, or you could just go Reaper (which covers both holes!) and get a second roiding fleet for free. Third example: Zik Co lacks anti-Co, anti-Cr, anti-Bs. There are no off-class ships that better handle those gaps than the Fr fleet. Fourth example: Etd Bs has Fi, Co, Bs holes. Etd has the most messed up targetting in these stats, but the De fleet covers those holes as well as any other combination of ships.

You either need to seriously revise the off-class ships (they need to be better than roiding ships), or just get rid of them (because no one is going to build them anyway). The only useful off-class ships that I can see are Scorpion (perfect Cat De buttplug) and Executive (ally-ETA anti-Fi, though worse than the Investor in all other ways).

Useless ship list:
- Devastator (either its T1 or its T2 is useful, never both)
- Chimera (a worse version of the Pegasus, the Init doesn't help)
- Dreadnaught (and they said there's no humour in ship stats, but this is pretty close)
- Ant (slow EMP is useless EMP)
- Black Widow (need Mantis anyway, so might as well go Fi/De or De/Cr)
- Pulsar (about as good as Phantom, but...)
- Ghost (...much slower than Phantom, so why not kill 2 birds with 1 stone?)
- Peacekeeper (nice Init, but not worth building over the Reaper)
- Dagger (worse than Thief, T2 does not help)
- Cutter (only its T1 is useful, and Init 22 ruins it)
- Scavenger (only its T2 is useful, much worse than Buccaneer)
- Distributor (lacks Peddler's T2)
- Tycoon (only its T2 is useful, worse than Peddler)

That said, beyond the issues with Cr, and the cluster**** that is off-class ships, I rather like these stats. They're a liiittle defensive for my liking, but not overly so. Fixing the issues should be easy, so as far as I'm concerned these are a viable set to use in r62.
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Unread 25 Apr 2015, 19:58   #27
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

I will echo what Mzy said. Off class ships are rarely worth building unless they have Superior init or effs. It will always be better use of value to put into a roiding class because then more value can be put into your fakes. The other problem with making superior off class ships is the increase in Cov-op based fleets. If you do make off class ships too good people will start using them for attacks and then will have a cluster of stupid stuff like this round with Fi.

I looked over most of the changes that Mzy suggested and I like most of them. If you make some changes today ill be able to review them tonight and get back to you.
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Unread 26 Apr 2015, 00:43   #28
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

I've asked appocco to remove covop steal and change it back to covop blow up. Due to all the ship farming this round, I think it just allows cheating. I'll review making changes later today. Thanks for the input!
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Unread 26 Apr 2015, 03:30   #29
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Yes, limiting ways to play is something we should aim for
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Unread 26 Apr 2015, 07:21   #30
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Yes, because allowing people to cheat more is something that we want to encourage. Ship farming as and always will be a problem the last thing we need to do is allow people to ship farm from any race and in whatever why will benefit them.
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Unread 28 Apr 2015, 22:13   #31
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Are you about done on beta, Blue_Esper?
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Unread 29 Apr 2015, 00:49   #32
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Yes, because allowing people to cheat more is something that we want to encourage. Ship farming as and always will be a problem the last thing we need to do is allow people to ship farm from any race and in whatever why will benefit them.
Well this game is build in a way that farming is very tempting, wether it be roids/ships/xp/def, and what not. Im with Berten on this, removing cov-opping dosnt make sense at all.
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Unread 29 Apr 2015, 06:53   #33
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

I think the game took a bad change when cov-op allowed for off class attack fleets. On top of that cov-op became easier.
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Unread 29 Apr 2015, 06:59   #34
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

I dont really think it is a bad thing for cov ops to enable unusual fleets like this as it brings many more options to the game. What is necessary is for the stats to be such that when cov opping pods is managed the resulting fleet is not absolutely amazing!
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Unread 29 Apr 2015, 13:53   #35
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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I dont really think it is a bad thing for cov ops to enable unusual fleets like this as it brings many more options to the game. What is necessary is for the stats to be such that when cov opping pods is managed the resulting fleet is not absolutely amazing!
But in a way, that also limits stats, because to encourage non-roiding ships to be used you have to make them slightly better for defense, well most ships that are good for defense (good init, high def, etc.) are going to be even better for attack. I, normally, don't like limiting strategy in any way, but this loophole could only lead to more cheating, and that is not a strategy i could support.
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Unread 29 Apr 2015, 13:55   #36
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

The simple and logical fix is to put shipcovop further back in the covop tree so you have to sacrifice more research points to get it.
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Unread 29 Apr 2015, 14:10   #37
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Sounds good to me. Swap with bankhacking? Stealing resources is not nearly as disruptive as stealing ships, and its harder to cheat with too, because the target needs to be much larger than you.
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Unread 29 Apr 2015, 14:59   #38
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Final changes have been made and i wont be touching them. handing over to whoever else has a set, good luck!

i think perhaps covops could be used again however i would like to see better policing of those who break the rules. and perhaps more transparent communication from MH to let people know who/what/where/how etc
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Unread 29 Apr 2015, 18:28   #39
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
The simple and logical fix is to put shipcovop further back in the covop tree so you have to sacrifice more research points to get it.
Thirded!
Maintains it as a viable strategy for anyone who really wants to go for it but makes it a much bigger sacrifice to do so.

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But in a way, that also limits stats, because to encourage non-roiding ships to be used you have to make them slightly better for defense, well most ships that are good for defense (good init, high def, etc.) are going to be even better for attack.
I guess this is going to depend on individual statsmakers. I have personally always regarded good defensive ships as those that have good survivability - high armour or are poorly targeted by their main target. They are therefore able to absorb the impact of an attack and hit back.
In practice in a set of stats you cant say you both want people to be able to attack - so those ships must have good init - and then say you want to have good def ships with equally good init because one or the other has to have higher. Given the premium we all place on having all attack fleets able to attack several different targets in practice attack fleets nearly always take priority and get the initiative. As such most of the time (there are exceptions like this round's illuminator) I don't think it really limits defence ships.
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Unread 29 Apr 2015, 21:18   #40
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Sounds good to me. Swap with bankhacking? Stealing resources is not nearly as disruptive as stealing ships, and its harder to cheat with too, because the target needs to be much larger than you.
I agree, the other thing about bank hack is that with the Gal fund change its much less appealing to stash 50m+ in a galaxy fund as you cant donate it out that fast and it now reflects the galaxy counting score. It also requires the planet doing the Ops to be much smaller than their targets which I am very much ok with.
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Unread 29 Apr 2015, 22:14   #41
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
The simple and logical fix is to put shipcovop further back in the covop tree so you have to sacrifice more research points to get it.
I dont agree with this, it will make it more tempting to cheat to get pods.
I did cov-op the other round, and some thought i was cheating, but because of the stats being the wya they were FI pods were very common early on, being xan and all that.

This round we have seen people with ONLY pods, wich meant their sucsess rate was 100% over the first 15 cov-ops, only cov-opping pure pods, wich ofc, seems a little wierd when other who had many times more sucsessfull covops had less pods and not only pods.

You cannot disable features in this game because it encourages cheating, the whole fundaments the game is built on encourages cheating, not only cov-ops.
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Unread 29 Apr 2015, 23:49   #42
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

You dont explain in your post how making getting to the ship cov op later makes it more tempting rather than less. Surely many fewer people will be willing to sacrifice the research time to get to the necessary cov op thus the levels of cheating should go down?

Unless you are thinking along the lines of "it takes me longer to get there, so I must ensure I am quicker at getting pods when I finally do get there!" And to be honest even if this is the case (I dont think it is) then those who are cheating are still being punished in being set back on the rest of research as a result.
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Unread 30 Apr 2015, 00:28   #43
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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You dont explain in your post how making getting to the ship cov op later makes it more tempting rather than less. Surely many fewer people will be willing to sacrifice the research time to get to the necessary cov op thus the levels of cheating should go down?

Unless you are thinking along the lines of "it takes me longer to get there, so I must ensure I am quicker at getting pods when I finally do get there!" And to be honest even if this is the case (I dont think it is) then those who are cheating are still being punished in being set back on the rest of research as a result.
Making cov-op harder will only benfit the ones allready cheating.
That was my point, shouldve been more clear.

Making cov-ops doable without cheating is better
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Unread 30 Apr 2015, 07:55   #44
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Thanks for the clarification.

If you dont think the longer research to the end of the cov op tree damages those cheating enough you could always extend the time some of the researches in the tree take as well.

Ultimately while all cheating is to be abhorred if doing the cheating so damages them in other ways that they derive no real gain over normal players out of their cheating then either a, they wont do it, or b, everyone else wont have a problem covering their amazing cov op fleet because it will be so small, with slow tt etc! It therefore becomes much less of a problem.
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Unread 30 Apr 2015, 08:13   #45
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
Thanks for the clarification.

If you dont think the longer research to the end of the cov op tree damages those cheating enough you could always extend the time some of the researches in the tree take as well.

Ultimately while all cheating is to be abhorred if doing the cheating so damages them in other ways that they derive no real gain over normal players out of their cheating then either a, they wont do it, or b, everyone else wont have a problem covering their amazing cov op fleet because it will be so small, with slow tt etc! It therefore becomes much less of a problem.
Well you want to remove ship cov oping as a viable option?
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Unread 19 May 2015, 11:14   #46
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Is there a link available with these shipstats?
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Unread 19 May 2015, 18:15   #47
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

they are on the beta server now

http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.p...&rn=7784220652
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Unread 19 May 2015, 18:51   #48
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

I would be infavor switching bank-hack and ship steal in the research line. Anyone with demo right now can have ship steal by tick24 and they wont lose that much time in actual research, i've done it 2 rounds now, where i steal pods tick 24 and 27 and attack tick 30 for 50-100k score gains. I think this should be moved back so that you have to spend actual ticks getting to it. This way unless you want to bonus tick 36 for it people wont have ship steal till tick 50ish, and by that point they will be way far behind that its not just a "oh ill give up my startup bonuses" Then its another 24 ticks till they can start mining roids and even another 20 ticks til they can build ships of their own. At this point we are at tick 100 and they are TT0 and no Core and maybe 50k value in fleets.

I am not saying its impossible it is just a very commited play style form that point, much like scanning where you have to give up quite a bit of your round start to do it.
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Unread 19 May 2015, 18:59   #49
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

You cant finish of stealing pods for a rounds worth by tick 27.
Yes we did see some very wierd steals where people cov-opped 100% pods in the 10 first covops last round, but obviously thats not possibole for people without good intel on wich planets to covop
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Unread 19 May 2015, 19:58   #50
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Oh please, it's general knowledge that players like Faceless had farms setup.
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