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Unread 16 Sep 2015, 04:18   #1
BloodyButcher
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BB stats r64

http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.p...n=903076840165

I just put together a set in 30 minutes.
The idea is to make the a pretty crazy set wich hopefully will put most of by the first look.
Especially trying to put the stats mafia off by another asymetrical stat set in regard of roiding classes, and Tiamata for having asymetrical T1/T2 distrubution across the set overall, and the average joe by putting a normal ship into one of the xan roiding classes.
EMP EFF/RES is not finished yet, but it will be pretty "normal" looking for everything except that im considering making one of the cath CR ships 175% on average instead of the normal 150-165% thats normaly around.
Dagger will be a EMP soaker, with very high EMP res.
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Unread 16 Sep 2015, 06:17   #2
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Re: BB stats r64

Based on targetting alone, there would be no reason to play cr/bs with these.

Also think you need to give xan a definitive choice between fr and de, although it is an interesting concept. Maybe if all races had some sort of option. I wouldnt do it with xan though just because they already have cloak advantage.

Also, 3 pod races should be changed to 2 pod classes.
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Unread 16 Sep 2015, 18:09   #3
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Re: BB stats r64

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
Based on targetting alone, there would be no reason to play cr/bs with these.

Also think you need to give xan a definitive choice between fr and de, although it is an interesting concept. Maybe if all races had some sort of option. I wouldnt do it with xan though just because they already have cloak advantage.

Also, 3 pod races should be changed to 2 pod classes.
I belive 2 pod stats is the hardest ones to get right, asymetrical sets is much easier to work with.
ill have em loaded into one of the servers so its easier to look at
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Unread 16 Sep 2015, 18:20   #4
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Re: BB stats r64

strict fr party.
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Unread 16 Sep 2015, 18:48   #5
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Re: BB stats r64

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
strict fr party.
Why is this?
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Unread 16 Sep 2015, 18:50   #6
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Re: BB stats r64

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Why is this?
That is a question you should know the answer to, seeing you made the set.
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Unread 16 Sep 2015, 19:00   #7
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Re: BB stats r64

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
That is a question you should know the answer to, seeing you made the set.
No, dont realy see it myself.
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Unread 17 Sep 2015, 10:17   #8
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Re: BB stats r64

Well the reason to not play Cr/Bs with these stats is a big reason. Fi/Co, Fr/De you can get away with massing 3 ships with various races. Will be lots of fc'ing.

Personally think you need more single target ships to reduce the % of fc's and make cr/bs playable.

There wont be real diversification in strategies based on your targetting
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Unread 17 Sep 2015, 10:19   #9
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Re: BB stats r64

Also curious to know why Terran and Zik have just two pods, but the other 3 races have 3?
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Unread 17 Sep 2015, 12:54   #10
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Re: BB stats r64

Haven't looked yet, but while I understand the (obvious) reasoning behind giving Zik just 2 pods, 3-pod Xan is almost by definition overpowered.
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Unread 17 Sep 2015, 13:18   #11
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Re: BB stats r64

My thoughts exactly - just wanted to hear it from the horses mouth with his reasoning
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Unread 17 Sep 2015, 14:24   #12
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Re: BB stats r64

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Haven't looked yet, but while I understand the (obvious) reasoning behind giving Zik just 2 pods, 3-pod Xan is almost by definition overpowered.
Do they need more?
Whats OPed with having more pods?
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Unread 17 Sep 2015, 15:48   #13
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Re: BB stats r64

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Do they need more?
Whats OPed with having more pods?
None cloak races with 3 pods: no issue
Cloaked race with 3 pods: even easier fakes then normal
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Unread 17 Sep 2015, 17:31   #14
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Re: BB stats r64

... Did you really require an explanation to understand that?
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Unread 17 Sep 2015, 19:00   #15
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Re: BB stats r64

Quote:
Originally Posted by berten View Post
None cloak races with 3 pods: no issue
Cloaked race with 3 pods: even easier fakes then normal
Why is this s issue? Its down to the stats.
A lot that target FR, also target DE.
From my experince the xan fakers are usual some newbs wich keep 3 fleeting pods, usualy FI ones. You stop those by having a few ships home willing to die.
3 pods are not that powerfull in MT stats
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Unread 17 Sep 2015, 19:02   #16
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Cool Re: BB stats r64

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
... Did you really require an explanation to understand that?
Yes. Please use examples from earlier roundstats, where this was a issue
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Unread 17 Sep 2015, 19:55   #17
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Re: BB stats r64

The targetting and inits is so awful... Fr is overly dominant, unless ac/dc is going to be uttershit this will be the main class if not only. Throw some cath De into the fr mix and its even more disgusting.

The Fr/De metaclass is so far off the rest, that i don't see how you are going to be able to balance this with Ac/Dc.

And to me, it is not an unknown fact that you lack logic. So i have no faith in the direction you are heading with this when it comes to balance.

Either redo your entire set or just scrap it.
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Unread 17 Sep 2015, 20:19   #18
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Re: BB stats r64

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
The targetting and inits is so awful... Fr is overly dominant, unless ac/dc is going to be uttershit this will be the main class if not only. Throw some cath De into the fr mix and its even more disgusting.

The Fr/De metaclass is so far off the rest, that i don't see how you are going to be able to balance this with Ac/Dc.

And to me, it is not an unknown fact that you lack logic. So i have no faith in the direction you are heading with this when it comes to balance.

Either redo your entire set or just scrap it.


I guess you are pointing towards adding a ship to ter/zik FR, and consider removing one from hull3.


How did you rate the "worst set ever"? IIRC you didnt point out that FR was overly dominated there?
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Unread 18 Sep 2015, 03:32   #19
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Re: BB stats r64

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
I guess you are pointing towards adding a ship to ter/zik FR, and consider removing one from hull3.


How did you rate the "worst set ever"? IIRC you didnt point out that FR was overly dominated there?
Only you think that about r60 stats afaik, atleast i don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
This is not a thread to flame the statsmaker, or anyone.
The whole point is that flawed, one sided stats, needs to be spotted and avoided being run.
Obviously a lot of the people contributing to the stats discussion preround dont have the ability to even spot out flawed stats, and even mid round/post round, they keep insisting that the truth of how the races are balanced, and what fleets are being used is something diffrent from what is actualy the reality.
Feels good to be able to use your own random shit against you.
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Unread 18 Sep 2015, 04:52   #20
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Re: BB stats r64

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
Only you think that about r60 stats afaik, atleast i don't.



Feels good to be able to use your own random shit against you.
That post was about R60ies stats, wich again, proves you have hard to admit that FR was over powered that round.
--------

Anyway, back to the stats discussion, added a 3rd FR ships for Terran, and split up targetting to:

Drake: init 7 - T1 CR
Chims: init 7 - T1 BS

----

Considering dropping one of the battleships of terran, removing wyvs, and changing dreadnoughts:

Dreads: init 7 - T1 CR/T2 DE


-----

Atleast that would somewhat weaken FR and strengthen BS with the current layout without messing to much around with the set.
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Unread 18 Sep 2015, 06:04   #21
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Re: BB stats r64

stats moved to: http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.p...n=903076840165
All updates will be done there.
TO DO list:

zik armor/damage
etd cost/armor/damage
cath + overall EMP EFF/RES
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Unread 18 Sep 2015, 10:49   #22
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Re: BB stats r64

Xan effs are once again ridiculous.

You need to scrap xan de pods all together tbh.
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Unread 18 Sep 2015, 11:03   #23
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Re: BB stats r64

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
Xan effs are once again ridiculous.

You need to scrap xan de pods all together tbh.
Are the eff this round ridiculous? I kinda copied them
This round it was avg 441, mine is average 429.
R60 avg 437, R61 avg 412, R62 avg 450.
On average the last 4 rounds had 435 in average damage for xan.
I will look through the threads there and see if people pointed it out as a issue there aswell.

I take it you think they should be upped a few notch?
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Unread 18 Sep 2015, 11:34   #24
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Re: BB stats r64

just from a quick glance:

FI: is pretty much unplayable with the ridiculous CO setup (emping the **** out and other classes doing the killing).
CO: should be quite easy to land, and quite easy to def with, but zero kills.
DE: is pretty much a 3 ship build for both xan and cath -> too damn easy and obvious, especially when ETDs steal pods. Way too easy and OP with this targeting. Can be supported with BS.
FR: almost the same deal as DE, but gets targeted a lot better, easier to cover and harder to def with. Also forced to 4 ship builds instead of 3. Can be supported with BS.
CR: 4-5 ship builds, pretty much all emp and zero kills like CO, can't see as a valid option as an ally strat.
BS: A lot better combination than with CR, also can support both FR and DE strats, 4-5 ship builds, but doable thanks to FRDE -option.

So... yet another FRDE round with some "trolltags" going BS to SK, ETDs farming DE pods and people whining about shit stats when they pick the wrong strat. GG.
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Unread 18 Sep 2015, 11:51   #25
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Re: BB stats r64

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoXiouS View Post
just from a quick glance:

FI: is pretty much unplayable with the ridiculous CO setup (emping the **** out and other classes doing the killing).
CO: should be quite easy to land, and quite easy to def with, but zero kills.
DE: is pretty much a 3 ship build for both xan and cath -> too damn easy and obvious, especially when ETDs steal pods. Way too easy and OP with this targeting. Can be supported with BS.
FR: almost the same deal as DE, but gets targeted a lot better, easier to cover and harder to def with. Also forced to 4 ship builds instead of 3. Can be supported with BS.
CR: 4-5 ship builds, pretty much all emp and zero kills like CO, can't see as a valid option as an ally strat.
BS: A lot better combination than with CR, also can support both FR and DE strats, 4-5 ship builds, but doable thanks to FRDE -option.

So... yet another FRDE round with some "trolltags" going BS to SK, ETDs farming DE pods and people whining about shit stats when they pick the wrong strat. GG.
Pretty good sum up.
I think you are spot on with most of the breakdowns on roidclasses. Except for CR, with tula/mantis being a decent option against DE
DE looks maybe a little strong atm
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Unread 19 Sep 2015, 08:03   #26
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Re: BB stats r64

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Are the eff this round ridiculous? I kinda copied them
This round it was avg 441, mine is average 429.
R60 avg 437, R61 avg 412, R62 avg 450.
On average the last 4 rounds had 435 in average damage for xan.
I will look through the threads there and see if people pointed it out as a issue there aswell.

I take it you think they should be upped a few notch?
Ummm yes.

They have been overpowered for countless rounds. Xan ac/dc used to be 300-350 and sometimes sub 300. Now statsmakers treat it like cloak isnt an advantage which is the main reason tias stats were so retardedly shocking
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Unread 19 Sep 2015, 08:10   #27
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Re: BB stats r64

Santa. Can you create a new thread for yours plz and i will look at them when i get a chance.
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Unread 19 Sep 2015, 08:25   #28
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Re: BB stats r64

Seconded.
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Unread 19 Sep 2015, 10:32   #29
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Re: BB stats r64

Just another point to make.

The way to make sure xan isnt ridiculously overpowering as this and previous rounds is by doing one or two of the following:
1. Limit its targetting (e.g. more single class targetting or defence ships for another race(s) that out init xans attack classes)
2. Reduce ac/dc effectiveness to coincide with its race characteristics.
3. Give it poor defence ships meaning the only way to play the race is as an attacking race

Seeing as you have xan with ridiculously good targetting, you need to reduce the ac/dc eff considerably. As I said previously in other threads, I remember Xan having a/c's of sub 300 and since then it's just been creeping up round on round as statsmakers underestimate cloak advantage or have xan bias.

Xan as a race characteristic always had the worst armour but decent damage. I think statsmakers should start realising this...i.e. making all their a/c costs worse than cat ships rather than on a par with them

You also need to look at the etd cloak ships because they should follow this same characteristic.

Terran is also unplayable in your stats and it doesnt follow the race characteristics. I.e. terrans armour is so poor in comparison to etd ships and its targetting also worse. It makes no sense

The same can be said of etds emp ships in relation to cat ac/dc

Last edited by Krypton; 19 Sep 2015 at 10:56.
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Unread 19 Sep 2015, 13:27   #30
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Re: BB stats r64

lol yes i can a new thread sorry BB i didn't read topic name correctly. i thought we were all supposed to post here.
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Unread 19 Sep 2015, 13:40   #31
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Re: BB stats r64

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
Ummm yes.

They have been overpowered for countless rounds. Xan ac/dc used to be 300-350 and sometimes sub 300. Now statsmakers treat it like cloak isnt an advantage which is the main reason tias stats were so retardedly shocking
thats just wrong. Xan normal A/C was 325-400ish sometimes 425. D/C was always super high. 450+ But it's a balance for xan. If it's got no armor it has high dmg. IF it's got high armor it's got lower damange.

Xan fi used to always be cheap and die easier. But, they killed before they died.

I can't remember ever,ever seeing xan A/C under 300. That's just silly. 325-400 is a good base for xan.
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Unread 19 Sep 2015, 13:42   #32
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Re: BB stats r64

http://beta.planetarion.com/history/...?id=4&round=31

Look over stats from the past.
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Unread 19 Sep 2015, 15:53   #33
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Re: BB stats r64

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
Ummm yes.

They have been overpowered for countless rounds. Xan ac/dc used to be 300-350 and sometimes sub 300. Now statsmakers treat it like cloak isnt an advantage which is the main reason tias stats were so retardedly shocking
The stats mafia has decided that the a/c-d/c cost im using is the right one.
Making xan weak to emp used to be the counterplay
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Unread 19 Sep 2015, 16:19   #34
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Re: BB stats r64

Data!

D/C: https://i.imgur.com/oaQGWK1.png

Graph includes all kill, steal and cloaked combat ships, but not EMP ships, pods, resource stealers or SKs. Over the long term, D/C has remained very stable, for all races.

A/C: https://i.imgur.com/KH7orTl.png

Graph includes all combat ships and pods, but not resource stealers or SKs. The original accusation was that Xan effs have gone up, but the reverse is true: the A/C of other races has gone down by about 15% over the last 43 rounds, while Xan has remained stable. In practice, this is exactly the same thing.
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Unread 19 Sep 2015, 16:29   #35
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Re: BB stats r64

The relations between AC and DC among the races is more or less the same each round. The emp effs too. So as one told me last round, the most important is to work on concept and targetting first.
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Unread 19 Sep 2015, 17:13   #36
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Re: BB stats r64

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Data!

A/C: https://i.imgur.com/yIJu4gI.png (Includes all combat ships and pods, but not resource stealers or SKs)

D/C: Working on it.
That looks about what I would expect. Xan A/C has stayed + or - 50 from the mean baring a few choice rounds.

Xan should range between 300 and 380 AC and between 380 and 450 Dc only ships with select purpose should be outside those ranges.
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Unread 19 Sep 2015, 17:18   #37
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Re: BB stats r64

Updated post with D/C. I invite both previous posters to look at the ratio between the effs of the races, rather than the absolute numbers. How either of you can come to the conclusion "it's been about the same all along" is beyond me.
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Unread 19 Sep 2015, 18:39   #38
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Re: BB stats r64

Thank you Mz.

So when you only need 3 ships as xan keep them ac/dcs this high? That logic from those xan lovers again.

Try to create unbiased opinions imo. I personally love xan, but i wont keep up this sherade that its not been getting more and more powerful and that every winning strat has to involve xan in some form.

That was the biggest part of the fail from tia's stats and yet you all dont want to learn from it. Every other strategy would have been possible this round if xan wasnt so optimal

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Unread 19 Sep 2015, 18:44   #39
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Re: BB stats r64

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Originally Posted by SantaCruz View Post
thats just wrong. Xan normal A/C was 325-400ish sometimes 425. D/C was always super high. 450+ But it's a balance for xan. If it's got no armor it has high dmg. IF it's got high armor it's got lower damange.

Xan fi used to always be cheap and die easier. But, they killed before they died.

I can't remember ever,ever seeing xan A/C under 300. That's just silly. 325-400 is a good base for xan.
Counter:
http://beta.planetarion.com/history/...?id=4&round=33

In relation to all other races its got significantly more powerful. Its all well and good pointing out random stats without any dynamical input from previous rounds. Thanks for trying though.
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Unread 19 Sep 2015, 20:14   #40
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Re: BB stats r64

I think those stats are telling the whole story.
Most important Krypton, if you want your stats picked you should just try copy the recent ones as much as possibole, the chance for a set not following the expected pattern is very unlikely to get picked.
And as mxy said, targetting and initating is the most important aspect for how stats play out
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Unread 19 Sep 2015, 20:28   #41
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Re: BB stats r64

But the current pattern is shocking made by people with bias or no clue.

Mzy actually stated that xan has become more powerful in relation the other races...based on the collected data.

People need to start making the stats relate to a races backstory, not for their own agenda. I dont have time to make stats, otherwise i would.
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Unread 20 Sep 2015, 03:48   #42
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Re: BB stats r64

Changes:

ive started EMP eff/res. Looking at beetles/vipers eff might give you a clue where this is heading.

I removed wyverns, and given Dreads T2 CR, as a response to the FR/DE issue people keep bringing up. the other solution would be to keep wyvs, and just give dreads T2 CR.

The whole idea i guess is that TheoDD pointed out FR would be favoured just from targetting, having to build more diffrent ships as FR to target everything and less as CR/BS will perhaps make CR/BS more favourable than it was.
Doing the same to xan DE might be something i will look into aswell, giving em a 3rd DE.
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Unread 21 Sep 2015, 01:29   #43
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Re: BB stats r64

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
Counter:
http://beta.planetarion.com/history/...?id=4&round=33

In relation to all other races its got significantly more powerful. Its all well and good pointing out random stats without any dynamical input from previous rounds. Thanks for trying though.
WTF one out of the last 45 rounds, had 2 xan ships under 300. You think you won your point? Give me a break dude. My point stands and was correct all along. Xan should be 300-400 on avg.
Only two xan ships out of 45 rounds has ever been under 300............
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Unread 21 Sep 2015, 01:57   #44
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Re: BB stats r64

BB i've checked out your stats. I do have a question and don't take it the wrong way. This is a question I asked myself when i looked at your Xan FR/DE and ETD CR/Bs

Why would Xan ever need to go DE, when it's got init 4 FR and Ter/Zik ally?
Why would ETD ever go CR when it's got BS. Ter Cr (and zik i guess) to team with?

I'm not saying i don't like the idea of this kinda setup. However FR and BS are just so much nicer of a setup then it's counter parts. Making those pods more of a show. Sure some players will probably end up getting full fr/de flets with pods as Xan and attacking with it. But, as it stands i don't see anything that can effectively stop Ter/Xan FR or Ter/ETD BS effectively in larger numbers. Haven't the other choice, well it's just a waste of value. Mass FR... Mass BS your teams going to land everynight anyways.

If you can find a way to make DE team relay more on having Xan around and weaken it's init 4 round house firing. De would become more of an opinion for xan's
Same goes with CR. Yes having Cath CR would be awesome to team with. Only what does ETD bring to this team up? cath brings the emp power and etd brings?... init 7 norm or init 20 steal? there has to be something to highlight both DE and CR.

Keep with your idea of the double pods. Lets just find a way to make both appealing. Besides Xan massing fr/de and sending 2k pods and watching DC's have to cover both....

Finally (sorry i've written so much)
First things appoco used to ask us when we had stats to hand in before even looking at them.
What pods classes you got? are they even numbers
Fi 1, Co 2, fr 3, de 2, cr 2, bs, 3
Answers no atm. Then he would tell us to fix that.
Then,
How many of each class you got? are they close to being the same
you have these ships
4 fi, 8 co, 9 fr, 7 de, 7 cr, 8 bs
Having only 4 fi ships, well thats kinda a big issue. At this point why not just totally remove fi. It's pointless.
You only 4 fi ships yet you target fi 11 times in your stats.

These are just things that should have been fixed before you even start your eff's. These stats need these issues fixed. Fi should hit close to the same about of times that it's hit. e.g If it hits 10 times, and gets hit 11. That's ok. This isn't. Every class needs to be looked over and that has to be looked into.
If not you will NEVER have balanced stats. As your base to your eff's are out of balance to start.
Please don't take this as me trying to ruin your stats. If your stats are picked over mine. That's fine. I will work on mine more this round. If your stats are picked, i want a fun balanced round. So I'm really just trying to help you. I took an hour today to look into your stats. I've got more issues then i listed here. But, if you take the time to balance your targeting and ship classes. most of them will be gone.

Anyways they will be good stats
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Unread 21 Sep 2015, 02:11   #45
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Re: BB stats r64

Fi Hits 5 times, and gets hit 11

Co hits 15 times, and gets hit 10

Fr hits 14 times, and gets hit 12 ( Xan only hits Fr once)

De hits 12 times, and gets hit 13 ( xan only hits de once and its t2)

Cr hits 10 times, and gets hit 13

Bs hits 11 times, and gets hit 8 times (only once by ter/zik)

This is the balance that needs to be looked at atm. This alone explains
Co Fr Bs are idle strats.
Fi Cr are already losing battles before round even starts. As they are out numbered.
Sure being within 2-3 targeting can be made up maybe with eff. Targeting order etc. But, not as much as you would believe. races need options

with fr/bs having 3 pods, they should be targeted more then 2 pod classes. and Fi should be the least targeted due to only having 4 ships (which i would change anyways)
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Unread 21 Sep 2015, 02:30   #46
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Re: BB stats r64

FI and CO is basicly the same class

But counting ships in the diffrent classes and what gets targetted when, i will surely not put any efforts in.
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Unread 21 Sep 2015, 06:27   #47
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Re: BB stats r64

Quote:
Originally Posted by SantaCruz View Post
WTF one out of the last 45 rounds, had 2 xan ships under 300. You think you won your point? Give me a break dude. My point stands and was correct all along. Xan should be 300-400 on avg.
Only two xan ships out of 45 rounds has ever been under 300............
Yes i did because its not just one. Its countless. And Mz has already posted the data to suggest all other races have gotten weaker in relation to Xan so looks like you're sh*t out of luck.

Whil xan ac/dc has fluctuated others have decreased making xan more powerful. This is why tias stats are so horrible.
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Unread 21 Sep 2015, 13:04   #48
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Re: BB stats r64

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
FI and CO is basicly the same class

But counting ships in the diffrent classes and what gets targetted when, i will surely not put any efforts in.
How can you say that.... I offered you my help. This stuff is stats basics. Your stats so fail of you ignore this. People will always find big problems.
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Unread 21 Sep 2015, 13:33   #49
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Re: BB stats r64

Someone ignoring basics. Sounds familiar
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Unread 21 Sep 2015, 14:00   #50
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Re: BB stats r64

Quote:
Originally Posted by SantaCruz View Post
How can you say that.... I offered you my help. This stuff is stats basics. Your stats so fail of you ignore this. People will always find big problems.
Thats how Tiamata makes stats, and its reading it upside down.
If you look at the current univers, or do some A scans of the top 5 alliances you will see that there is some types of ships thats very rarely built. peacekeepers for example.
Corsair, Pirate, Dragon and Phoenix can shoot as much as they like at FR, but if they are gonna be the only anti FR for zik/ter DE, they will lose everytime.

Fi Hits 6 times, and gets hit 11/Co hits 15 times, and gets hit 10? who cares? Only Tiamata, the stats mafia, and now you apparently.
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