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Unread 12 Mar 2015, 18:51   #1
M0RPH3US
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Add Another Iniative (Stats-Mechanics)

Hi all,

as most prolly know i spent some time with creating stats lately - and i stumbled over a significant problem which is called "Same Class Firing".

Having for example Frigates shoot at Frigates results usually in unplayable scenarios where the attacker is not able to land his attacks against his own race(similar shipbuild) - as the defender gets the salvage while the attackers looses his value.
And the higher the D/C of those ships is, the less appealing it gets for the defender to stay - so in worst case you have 2 loosers in the very end.

And since PA is a value game afterall, "Same Class Firing" needs to prevented by the stats maker - cause no one wants a dull and boring round with no attacks landing or silly 1 fleet recalls.

After all its not so much the problem that Frigates target Frigates, but the same init firing for Attack and Defence.

So why not add a second initiative - and seperate Attacks from Defence.

This way a ship can fire early when used to attack, but fire late when used for defending - or ofc the other way round.

Example:
TER Pegasus FR-CLASS targets T1 FR T2 DE AttInit: 6 DefInit: 8 ......

This would open up a new dimension for Stats Makers and as a result a new dimension for us players without changing the Game principles and without making it random or overly complicated.

Yes such a Set might be harder to balance and also harder to read - but for sure the new Possibilities are weighting more then those downsides.

Discuss please
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Unread 12 Mar 2015, 19:00   #2
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Re: Add Another Iniative (Stats-Mechanics)

I've been pondering a bit about a similar idea, it would add some more complexity to the game without really stabbing anyone in the face... but, there comes the question about who to give the advantage to, or is it the statsmakers choice... offensive vs. defensive inits with more offensive or defensive stats etc.
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Unread 12 Mar 2015, 19:03   #3
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Re: Add Another Iniative (Stats-Mechanics)

would be up to the stats maker ofc - or the one deciding in the very end
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Unread 12 Mar 2015, 22:22   #4
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Re: Add Another Iniative (Stats-Mechanics)

I suggested Earlier that ships have Conditional init Modifiers, but i like this one a lot better. It would certainly allow for more diverse stats. Because now you could make a ship that has high attack init but has low defense init making that planet still able to attack while he isnt immune to that specific class.
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Unread 13 Mar 2015, 00:23   #5
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Re: Add Another Iniative (Stats-Mechanics)

I seem to remember that, in the early rounds, the defenders fired before the attackers. I think that this applied by individual ship not to the entire fleet(s).
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Unread 13 Mar 2015, 07:22   #6
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Re: Add Another Iniative (Stats-Mechanics)

Then maybe the code exists allready?

However, even though i got pretty much no real idea about coding, a second iniative shouldnt force to rewrite the whole battle engine!?

As its probably just 1 routine to check before calcing a ships damage - Attack 1 or 0, then go to column x or y to find iniative.

At least in my world this sounds easy
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Unread 13 Mar 2015, 14:07   #7
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Re: Add Another Iniative (Stats-Mechanics)

It's definitely the case that in earlier iterations of the game, defenders fired first where the inits were the same. I'm in favour of a more variable design, and this sounds like an interesting idea - though there's a risk that it may lead to an even greater dichotomy of attack and defence ships, with the limited fleet variation and strategy that comes from that.

While we're stuck with a clear attack / defence dichotomy, however, I think it makes perfect sense to work with it. It certainly shouldn't be difficult for the battle code to work out which side's which.
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Unread 13 Mar 2015, 14:55   #8
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Re: Add Another Iniative (Stats-Mechanics)

this will defiantely incrase the stat making difficulty
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Unread 13 Mar 2015, 15:48   #9
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Re: Add Another Iniative (Stats-Mechanics)

Its an interesting concept and does definitely introduce more tactical/strategic element to the game. Only reason I would be opposed to it at the moment is that I dont think PA needs to be complicated even more; adding more ways to play the game, yes; making it harder for new players or semi-casual players to play, no.
If the code exists or just needs slight modification then go for it. Having a different way of playing your planet or the game is always good. However if it requires some major changes I would rather have the PA team work on current issues instead of introducing new features where the possibility of unwanted repercussions is unknown.

(If you are wondering what is high on my list of things that need fixing, its the shuffle formula and how to keep galaxies at 7-9 planets even though there are not enough BPs. Basically have the shuffle code not rely on BPs to make galaxies. Also keep refining/changing BP sizes 4+1 is a good step but i would rather see BPs of 3 with no late starter.)
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Unread 13 Mar 2015, 17:57   #10
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Re: Add Another Iniative (Stats-Mechanics)

I was thinking about something like this the other day as well...not sure it would work without further complicating creating/balancing stats. Something needs to change...

As mentioned earlier, in previous rounds the defending ships fired first when dealing with ships of the same initiative on both sides.
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Unread 13 Mar 2015, 18:26   #11
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Re: Add Another Iniative (Stats-Mechanics)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RexDrax View Post
Its an interesting concept and does definitely introduce more tactical/strategic element to the game. Only reason I would be opposed to it at the moment is that I dont think PA needs to be complicated even more; adding more ways to play the game, yes; making it harder for new players or semi-casual players to play, no.
If the code exists or just needs slight modification then go for it. Having a different way of playing your planet or the game is always good. However if it requires some major changes I would rather have the PA team work on current issues instead of introducing new features where the possibility of unwanted repercussions is unknown.
i agree that coding time should be spent on more important features - however i am thinking this would be a small change to implement

i personally feel some time should be spent on coding a interface that is easily used from mobiles and i would think the bot planets are worth to think about
^^ if we are adding wishlists now
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Unread 16 Mar 2015, 04:22   #12
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Re: Add Another Iniative (Stats-Mechanics)

Paging mz to the thread...
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Unread 16 Mar 2015, 14:30   #13
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Re: Add Another Iniative (Stats-Mechanics)

Thread seen. Opinion neutral. Carry on.
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Unread 16 Mar 2015, 19:05   #14
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Re: Add Another Iniative (Stats-Mechanics)

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Unread 8 Apr 2015, 20:32   #15
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Re: Add Another Iniative (Stats-Mechanics)

iīd like to hear some more thoughts about this tbh - as it seems ppl actually (so far) like the basic idea

it would safe us all from the same stats over and over again - or completely "weird" ones like we have em this round (though i personally enjoy the round so far)
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Unread 9 Apr 2015, 02:15   #16
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Re: Add Another Iniative (Stats-Mechanics)

I'd also like to keep chewing on this idea. I haven't had much time for PA lately, but I think this is worth investigating further.
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Unread 11 Apr 2015, 04:07   #17
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Re: Add Another Iniative (Stats-Mechanics)

We should find out if how possible it would be to code this into the game, and if its not that hard lets get this implemented. This is the kind of change that will make the game less Cut and dry, and more strategy based. At the moment most rounds the "strats" are usually 1 or 2 class-based.
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Unread 11 Apr 2015, 15:40   #18
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Re: Add Another Iniative (Stats-Mechanics)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
We should find out if how possible it would be to code this into the game, and if its not that hard lets get this implemented. This is the kind of change that will make the game less Cut and dry, and more strategy based. At the moment most rounds the "strats" are usually 1 or 2 class-based.
possibly... however i believe this kind of change will mean further unbalanced stats. Not that it matters to me.
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Unread 13 Apr 2015, 23:47   #19
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Re: Add Another Iniative (Stats-Mechanics)

Don't like it, don't seem to bring much to the game other than confusing people.
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Unread 14 Apr 2015, 11:06   #20
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Re: Add Another Iniative (Stats-Mechanics)

I dislike this too, but I've been refraining from saying so, because I really don't have any argument why.

Therefore, feel free to disregard.
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Unread 3 Jun 2015, 03:55   #21
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Re: Add Another Iniative (Stats-Mechanics)

I love the idea, but the stats need to be made less huge, perhaps reduce to 3 races.

EMP
DAMAGE
NANO.

Some of the ships have the extra ability to cloak, so it keeps that strategy open..

Note: ETD goes and dies in the corner..

EMP Resist needs to change to EMP Shields(basically guns to freeze), to make the stats a little easier to understand.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
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Unread 6 Jun 2015, 03:07   #22
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Re: Add Another Iniative (Stats-Mechanics)

or just thinking off the top of my head, inits are shifting by 1 in favor of the defender?

So the defender get to fire the init first.

Att #? / Def #1
Att #1 / Def #2
Att #2 / Def #3
Att #3 / Def #4

however I just noticed that the current stats dont include any fire on self ships (that I can see).
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