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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 17:39   #51
TheoDD
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Re: Mil Centres

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaUlZiToS View Post
Dont cry, try to do better if you think its easy.

As i sayd, this round have many people playing spaming MC to try a top only with XP, and only we did that... so i assume that´s not easy.

Maybe you dont have all this capable to think that you have said.
lol, im not crying about anything... keep arguing with yourself.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 17:48   #52
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Re: Mil Centres

I'd like to reiterate, I like the MC playing style. I wasn't complaining. Was just saying it was hard for us to balance our goals with a lot of the planets being below the bash limit with our stretched resources and prioritising def vs Black Flag.

Even if we get organised, we'd have had to cover for de also since Joseph was sending de pods with BS + Harpies and we just didnt have that many fleets available.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 17:48   #53
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by RaUlZiToS View Post
We are talking about people who played ONLY with xp.
Play with Xp AND value is the normal stuf...
Well rank 16 had about 60% of his score from xp rather than value, is that really 'normal stuff'?
Besides that it is normal to play some xp does not invalidate a comment in a discussion that is really about how powerful xp is.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 17:54   #54
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Re: Mil Centres

And by the end when we could do something about it, they stopped targetting us and instead switched to ND planets.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 18:02   #55
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Re: Mil Centres

Then I guess p3ng's problem was not lack of competence but priority (and planning).

I think it has been pretty common #1 ally not getting #1 planet. I don't see a reason for all this whining. If your priorities were different, you could get planet for sure.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 18:35   #56
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by fortran View Post
Then I guess p3ng's problem was not lack of competence but priority (and planning).

I think it has been pretty common #1 ally not getting #1 planet. I don't see a reason for all this whining. If your priorities were different, you could get planet for sure.
Not really you can check the history page allies with a lot more inc had top planets they just defended better.


Btw this is how it looks when xp is broken
http://www.clawofdarkness.com/pawiki...6:Planet_Ranks
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 19:51   #57
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
Depends on stats... Some classes in some sets, just cant be stopped without taking major loss on the defside. Like last round... Where BS pretty much were unstopable.
Stopping a solo 1/3 fleet was not unstoppable (typical joseph land).

Just add some def to prevent solo land, its not hard if you are willing to try.

Voila, joseph xp run nerfed......

More suitable nerf that dont require change of the game.

But, was the problem mc and escorts or ship stats? I am confused...
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 20:02   #58
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by Motti View Post
Stopping a solo 1/3 fleet was not unstoppable (typical joseph land).

Just add some def to prevent solo land, its not hard if you are willing to try.

Voila, joseph xp run nerfed......

More suitable nerf that dont require change of the game.

But, was the problem mc and escorts or ship stats? I am confused...
who said there was any problem? And as for stopping 1 fleet out of 12, seems a bit harder to do in practise with the current system. You can't expect all or any to be fake everytime. Calcing vs 1 out of 12 fleets might just end up biting your own ass...
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 20:06   #59
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
who said there was any problem? And as for stopping 1 fleet out of 12, seems a bit harder to do in practise with the current system. You can't expect all or any to be fake everytime. Calcing vs 1 out of 12 fleets might just end up biting your own ass...
So what your saying now is that you are shit at dcing so xp is broken?

Maybe we should nerf roids too and reduce fleets to 1 as 3 is too many!
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Last edited by Hunterrrr; 7 Oct 2014 at 20:12.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 20:12   #60
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Re: Mil Centres

if p3ng has put as much effort in defending there top planets as they do in whining we would not have had this discussion at all....
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 20:14   #61
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by Hunterrrr View Post
So what your saying now is that you are shit at dcing so xp is broken?
Almost struck below the belt... Your point?
And where did i say that? Did you read between the lines i didn't write?
Are you trying to be a troll?
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 20:25   #62
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
Almost struck below the belt... Your point?
And where did i say that? Did you read between the lines i didn't write?
Are you trying to be a troll?
Pal looked!
Just cause you don't like the playstyle it doesn't necessary mean that it's broken. I am fed up with you morons crying about everything and making this game even shitter than it already is. We nerfed salvage, ****ed up production, dists aren't a viable playstyle, etc.... so yah let's take xp away also please.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 20:28   #63
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by Hunterrrr View Post
Pal looked!
Just cause you don't like the playstyle it doesn't necessary mean that it's broken. I am fed up with you morons crying about everything and making this game even shitter than it already is. We nerfed salvage, ****ed up production, dists aren't a viable playstyle, etc.... so yah let's take xp away also please.
I haven't cried about jackshit...
Go find another Pal... pal
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 20:30   #64
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
8 of the top 20 excluding you two were in the T100 for xp, which is pretty good going given how much more difficult it is for players with high value to get large amounts of xp.
9/15/68 of the top 10/20/100 on score were top 100 on value.
4/10/38 of the top 10/20/100 on score were top 100 on XP.
3/5/6 of the top 10/20/100 on score were top 100 on both value and XP.

I recognize the issue with XP being overly strong (corrodes the bonds of community), but I'm just not seeing the evidence. It is far from weak, though, but that's a good thing. Variety is the spice of life! We could do with a little less standard value play and a bit more... well, a bit more anything else.

(On a sidenote, I'm actually a little surprised that MCs in their current form even make XP viable, let alone good. If you'd asked me that 3 rounds ago, I would've laughed in your face.)
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 20:35   #65
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Re: Mil Centres

Fake Attacks recalling eta 2->1 will fix a lot of my problems with XP, in that it will require much more effort now to pull off last round's win rather than 10 people logging in once a day to prod new ships and launch a fleet they don't have to look after.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 20:38   #66
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Re: Mil Centres

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Fake Attacks recalling eta 2->1 will fix a lot of my problems with XP, in that it will require much more effort now to pull off last round's win rather than 10 people logging in once a day to prod new ships and launch a fleet they don't have to look after.
As far as I know they launched most of their attacks as real, they even landed on some with all fleets because there was defence so....
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 20:55   #67
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Smile Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by Hunterrrr View Post
As far as I know they launched most of their attacks as real, they even landed on some with all fleets because there was defence so....

Some fleets were real some weren't.

It is as I said above, the only way to avoid a XP whore to take place inside the top 20 from a player who deserved more playing the "right" way is to completely remove XP from the counted score.
Even my suggested "Whining Factor" to the XP formula cant guarantee that.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 21:34   #68
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by Norton View Post
if p3ng has put as much effort in defending there top planets as they do in whining we would not have had this discussion at all....
Just to moan a bit more this is unfair (since that's what you seem to think is all we do). The p3n ppl in this thread have mostly been explaining that circumstances/alliance decisions are in part the reason why there two of the top planets were xp planets. And have therefore been pointing out that we were NOT INTERESTED in defending our top planets last round. We did not want to put effort into defending our top planets (we did that very well the previous round) instead we put our effort where we thought it more important. The side effect of this was to provide a boost to HUEHUEHUE as they could easily land on us. That is unfortunate but something we were clear-eyed about from the start of them hitting us (though I as I have mentioned it took a while to realise this would mean we were handing them top planet - but even once the realisation was made our priorities remained the same).

As a result it is difficult to say from these two top planets that mil centres are op.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 21:43   #69
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by Hunterrrr View Post
As far as I know they launched most of their attacks as real, they even landed on some with all fleets because there was defence so....
Hi phant
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 21:47   #70
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Re: Mil Centres

U guys Would be surprise how active we are in whatsapp. We are not cousins as many of u belive. Sometimes ppl i know ask me If the brazilian in his gal is a real guy. Funny
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 23:58   #71
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
who said there was any problem? And as for stopping 1 fleet out of 12, seems a bit harder to do in practise with the current system. You can't expect all or any to be fake everytime. Calcing vs 1 out of 12 fleets might just end up biting your own ass...
So maybe xp is op because countering it requires effort?

You can send fake def that land safely, but makes solo landing hard if attacker believes the fake...

You can send enough real def.

You can FC the XP whore - at some point his fleet is to small to solo land.

Argument of a XP whore is under bash is invalid, an alliance consist of many planets capable of attacking smaller targets - if you cant get them to send it is not because XP is OP.

You can learn and adapt what waves is likely to be xp runs, and give def priority versus them. Id guess they would move on to other targets quickly then.

You have many options to deny a xp whore easy xp.

But, saying it is so OP because it is not important enough for you, or your alliance to stop them is silly!

XP whores can be stopped if you want - or not if you choose not to stop them.

XP whoring is not OP - its not for any random player to randomly send attacks and land massive xp and win a T-shirt.
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Unread 8 Oct 2014, 12:34   #72
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
9/15/68 of the top 10/20/100 on score were top 100 on value.
4/10/38 of the top 10/20/100 on score were top 100 on XP.
3/5/6 of the top 10/20/100 on score were top 100 on both value and XP.

I recognize the issue with XP being overly strong (corrodes the bonds of community), but I'm just not seeing the evidence. It is far from weak, though, but that's a good thing. Variety is the spice of life! We could do with a little less standard value play and a bit more... well, a bit more anything else.

(On a sidenote, I'm actually a little surprised that MCs in their current form even make XP viable, let alone good. If you'd asked me that 3 rounds ago, I would've laughed in your face.)
Dont have any evidence... like i said before, if wasnt 2 Brazilians who finish in t3, we will not have this discusion.
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Unread 8 Oct 2014, 12:49   #73
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Re: Mil Centres

RaUIZiToS you are wrong; whether xp is too strong or not strong enough is one of the eternal arguments of pa, it goes back and forth and comes up regularly! You just happen to be the catalyst for this particular set of discussions.

Motti you are busy attacking TheoDD who is one of the people on this thread who does not believe xp is op. Indeed the only person who adheres to your straw man suggestion that xp is broken/op in this thread is Plaguuu who who essentially seems to believe that it is unfair that rank 2 while rank 1 on value should get almost no xp off rank 1 who is way down the value ranks while rank 1 can get immense xp off rank 2... in other words wants more xp to be more score based than value based.
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Unread 8 Oct 2014, 12:51   #74
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Re: Mil Centres

I knew when I started this thread it would divide players...

This was my 3rd round back after playing here and there over the years. After my first round I complained that the game is too biased towards experienced players and big allys and that there is no chance for solo players. So I understand the bonus of mil centres to help smaller planets and smaller allys.

However If we keep going this way we will have a reverse situation where players just play for XP and don't bother building ships or having value as it doesn't help you get far. The PA game I loved that I keep coming back to is about building a strong planet and working as a team. But Mil Centre whoring goes against this.

I think the game needs some major rethinking to sort allowing new players to play and still make an impact but I think Mil Centres have to be capped to bring the game back to what its supposed to be about!
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Unread 8 Oct 2014, 14:00   #75
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by RaUlZiToS View Post
Dont have any evidence... like i said before, if wasnt 2 Brazilians who finish in t3, we will not have this discusion.
There's certainly an amount of jealousy around, but it would've surfaced whoever had won the way you guys did. It came up last round, when HK got top 3 in similar fashion, and MCs were nerfed as a result.
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Unread 8 Oct 2014, 15:36   #76
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Re: Mil Centres

I don't really have an opinion on MCs, but for me, the problem with XP is that nothing can be done about it once an opponent has got it. You can take roids and kill value, but XP cannot be removed. I can see how this can be frustrating.
I don't really have a solution; there are lots of things that could be tried.

You could cap the % of score than can be made up of XP, so that if a player has say 5 value score, they can only have a maximum of 50 score from XP.

You could make XP a multiplier, so score = value*XP and have XP range from say 1 to 10.

You could make it so XP decays over time - this would mean players who consistently land on higher value targets are still rewarded, but a one-off massive land wouldn't decide the whole round.
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Unread 9 Oct 2014, 14:03   #77
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Re: Mil Centres

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I don't really have an opinion on MCs, but for me, the problem with XP is that nothing can be done about it once an opponent has got it. You can take roids and kill value, but XP cannot be removed. I can see how this can be frustrating.
I don't really have a solution; there are lots of things that could be tried.

You could cap the % of score than can be made up of XP, so that if a player has say 5 value score, they can only have a maximum of 50 score from XP.

You could make XP a multiplier, so score = value*XP and have XP range from say 1 to 10.

You could make it so XP decays over time - this would mean players who consistently land on higher value targets are still rewarded, but a one-off massive land wouldn't decide the whole round.
First post of any sense. Both are good ideas. XP decay probably the best.

Again this is nerfing XP though considering it is not OP as proven by previous posts.

On another note, why were SK's nerfed? With structure defence u cant kill any structure's. What's the point of SK now? May aswell get rid of them.....

Typical Naptarion.
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Unread 9 Oct 2014, 14:40   #78
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by jermain View Post
First post of any sense. Both are good ideas. XP decay probably the best.

Again this is nerfing XP though considering it is not OP as proven by previous posts.

On another note, why were SK's nerfed? With structure defence u cant kill any structure's. What's the point of SK now? May aswell get rid of them.....

Typical Naptarion.
If you force someone to have 10% structure def u skd them 10% without even trying so ..
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Unread 9 Oct 2014, 19:53   #79
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
If you force someone to have 10% structure def u skd them 10% without even trying so ..
then comes the dilemma of what matters the most: 10% structure defence for immunity or potensially having to rebuild costly buildings. (Sucks big time to loose several refs/amps/dists/finance centres/mc's etc... and having to go another 100+/- ticks in cu to recover what is lost from 1 - 2 waves of sk's. And there is no guarantee that you will be able to stop any future waves either. On the plus side: You can never drop below 9 buildings.
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Unread 9 Oct 2014, 20:59   #80
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Re: Mil Centres

If its worth it to build sd or not depends on how much sk is flying around, and how likely they are to hit you Obviously if there is noone building sk you're losing out bigtime building sd.
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Unread 9 Oct 2014, 21:52   #81
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Re: Mil Centres

Have some data.

Last round, 102610 structures were built: roughly 25% FCs, 30% refs, 16% amps and dists, 9% factories. 1706 of those (1.66% of the total) were destroyed by SKs. 4560 SD (4.44% of the total) were built. By itself, that says nothing. Unfortunately, there's no data on how many structures would have been destroyed if no one had built any SD.

20 SDs were destroyed and 4560 were built, so only 0.4% was destroyed, or 1.26% less than the average. For a very rough approximation, we can extrapolate that to other buildings, and if we additionally assume that the ratio of buildings destroyed was roughly equal to the ratio of buildings constructed, then SDs are not worth it, at least not in these numbers: 1.66% + 1.26% is still much less than 4.44%.

That means that if this trend continues, then the average player should actually build fewer SD. It only becomes useful if you attract the attention of the unsavoury elements in our community. I'm looking at you, Norton!

But if you do it just to make the trolls cry bitter tears of anguish, that's a good reason.

Thanks to Appoco for the data!
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Unread 10 Oct 2014, 05:15   #82
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Re: Mil Centres

Maybe factor in that the lower half of the universe is less likely to be sk'd, as few if any has any interest in sk'ing / roiding them. So i disagree to some extent that less SD's is required for all. You are saying avg 4.44% SD's were built... Remove most of the lower half of the universe and you are around 8%... Probably why only 1706 buildings were destroyed only, as most in the top half was immune. Thats atleast how i analyze your post mz. Thank you for sharing
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Unread 10 Oct 2014, 11:59   #83
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Re: Mil Centres

I very intentionally used the word "average" and "very rough approximation".
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Unread 10 Oct 2014, 14:50   #84
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Re: Mil Centres

Surely tho in reality the brazilians did it outside the norm. It required lots of different elements such as stats, politics and interest to be a certain way. If any of these hadn't had been the way it was then it wouldn't have happened.

Yes XP Is Op because you can't remove it once accquired but no it isn't at the same time for the above reasons, it's just too much of delicate process to pay off over multiple rounds.

Now I didn't play last round but all I get from the whine fest is that Joseph did over the course of the last week what everyone is ok with happening at tick 24 when vs rushers have 5x as much score as the rest through xp. Your just tearful cos you didn't have time to overtake again yes???
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Unread 10 Oct 2014, 15:19   #85
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Re: Mil Centres

It is difficult to say he did it just in the last week; he was first on and off from tick 596. So no its not really about having too little time for value players to catch up.
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Unread 10 Oct 2014, 16:56   #86
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Re: Mil Centres

It is about a planet focusing on planet win with in an ally with solely this objective during the entire round with indirect support of at least 3 other alliances without no one disturbing him and with his rivals being brought down one by one during the round last weeks.

Imo the universe was broken, not the MCs.
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Unread 10 Oct 2014, 17:31   #87
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Now I didn't play last round but all I get from the whine fest is that Joseph did over the course of the last week

At PT 595 he was ranked #478
At PT 596 he was ranked #1

That's a jump of 477 spots..

Since PT 596 he was at least top 5 and most of the time #1

So basically: it took one good land for him to reach the top...
He - obviously - required a couple more good lands to stay there tho..

But if the game mechansims allows one to go from rank #478 to rank #1 then something doesn't entirely look right to me..
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Unread 10 Oct 2014, 17:39   #88
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Re: Mil Centres

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But if the game mechansims allows one to go from rank #478 to rank #1 then something doesn't entirely look right to me..
He gained 47k xp and 1k roids in 3 lands which gave him 3.1 mi score.

Is it too much?

Game shouldnt allow people to 3-fleet atk during the entire round
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Unread 10 Oct 2014, 17:39   #89
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Re: Mil Centres

He probably landed solo on 3 top players at once so no surprise that he gained so much score - 3 mil. I am not sure that it shows the game mechanisms are broken; should you not be rewarded for such audacity? Most people who are only just in T500 are unlikely to land solo on even one top player, landing on several, and then doing so again and again shows the power and effectiveness of his strategy.
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Unread 10 Oct 2014, 18:19   #90
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Re: Mil Centres

So basically he used a method that isn't cheating or abuse so no one can abuse him for that so you pick on the ALLOWED mechanism that he used???

Jesus

Suck it up, well done Joseph and kudos for pulling it off within the rules of the game, they are just bitter they weren't good enough to
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Unread 10 Oct 2014, 20:12   #91
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Suck it up, well done Joseph and kudos for pulling it off within the rules of the game, they are just bitter they weren't good enough to
Please stop with this ****.
This thread is about military centers.
This thread is not about whining about Joseph winning - so please stop trying to make it that.
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Unread 10 Oct 2014, 20:56   #92
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Re: Mil Centres

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Please stop with this ****.
This thread is about military centers.
This thread is not about whining about Joseph winning - so please stop trying to make it that.
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Originally Posted by wades
Does anyone else think we should have a cap on Mil Centres? This round proved that just building them pays off and actually holding onto value and defending yourself doesn't get you anywhere.
Look at OP post, does it look like whining? Coz it looks that way to me.
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Unread 11 Oct 2014, 01:38   #93
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Re: Mil Centres

why not make fake attack and fake defend available on INC scans
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Unread 11 Oct 2014, 09:21   #94
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Re: Mil Centres

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why not make fake attack and fake defend available on INC scans
i would like to see this mixed with a good MT set, and make Land scan and Unit scan affected by dist < amp count again. Disting no matter what race should have its perks, and same goes for amping.
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Unread 15 Oct 2014, 18:25   #95
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Re: Mil Centres

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He probably landed solo on 3 top players at once so no surprise that he gained so much score - 3 mil. I am not sure that it shows the game mechanisms are broken; should you not be rewarded for such audacity? Most people who are only just in T500 are unlikely to land solo on even one top player, landing on several, and then doing so again and again shows the power and effectiveness of his strategy.
Well, joseph crashed and was a litle sad, i ask all people to escort him 1 day to put him back in the game.
When i was lokking for a target, i found 3 top 10 cts in the same gal and decided to send there.
When we did that, joseph was not with that much MCs, he had 30 or 40 only... but a top 500 planet landing in 3 top 10 will give you alot of score anyway.
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Unread 15 Oct 2014, 18:49   #96
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by RaUlZiToS View Post
Well, joseph crashed and was a litle sad, i ask all people to escort him 1 day to put him back in the game.
When i was lokking for a target, i found 3 top 10 cts in the same gal and decided to send there.
When we did that, joseph was not with that much MCs, he had 30 or 40 only... but a top 500 planet landing in 3 top 10 will give you alot of score anyway.
still the highlight of your lives?
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Unread 14 Nov 2014, 18:24   #97
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Re: Mil Centres

haha look at top 10, where 6 out of 10 players are xp players whom only get escorted or attack "inactives" for xp gain, and crash on purpose. Yeay what an achievement w00t w00t.

XP formula is broken look at the top 3 players where #3 is 700k score ahead of value so is top #2 and #1 has 1 mill more score and averages about an increase of 10% - 15% score each day....

XP players needs to attack, and doesn't need to worry about being attacked... in my mind this is a fundamental flaw in a war game such as this, second its the defending thats actually hard to organize, attacks not so much... chose target, distribute coords and LT and your set... all it requires is a few people willing to login and make ships and send attack wooooopdihu what a logistical achievement that is. So please do not make it look like its something that is hard to achieve.

However its fine you play it like this round, you´ve highlighted a problem and you´ve capitalized on it... way to go, thank you. but you guys ranting on about it being such a feat to achieve it, is simple just meeeeh.. if you think it is fine think so, be happy about it, don't really care personally. Hopefully XP will be nerfed as a result of this for next round.

PS. escorting will always be something thats in the game and is an integral part of it in my mind. As noted before its the XP gain thats generally flawed.

Sorry to take the discussion away from mil centers again.. mil centers are fine as people have pointed out however i think it would be good to have a hard cap to them would solve some of the issues.
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Unread 14 Nov 2014, 18:49   #98
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Re: Mil Centres

The top 100 is turning more and more to value based players. The ones holding t10 using Xp are only there due to an amount of support in the same level of any previous round top player but focused on the every day escorting rather than on defense leeching, pnaps and a few escorts near round ends.
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Unread 14 Nov 2014, 19:01   #99
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Re: Mil Centres

I would like a round where xp was completely removed.

We have had some rounds where xp played a massive part, cant we have one where it doesnt?
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Unread 14 Nov 2014, 19:05   #100
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by fortran View Post
The top 100 is turning more and more to value based players. The ones holding t10 using Xp are only there due to an amount of support in the same level of any previous round top player but focused on the every day escorting rather than on defense leeching, pnaps and a few escorts near round ends.
Mmmm, but still the same support is required for a value player to achieve that rank and most often a hell of a lot more since they have a lot more to worry about than just idling, not really having to care about anything except for fully covered attacks....? See the flaw yet? How does it promote active or good game play to artificially keep once fleet low value to be able to negate hitting active players who will struggle to get the attacks covered... Its just silly.

My beef is not with escorting or supporting planets.. as i said that will always exist in a game like this and it should be, its a strategy game... my beef is with XP and its OP-ness this round.
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