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Unread 24 May 2014, 21:03   #1
Paisley
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Value v Dist v MIL(XP)

(Mods feel free to change the title of the thread)

There has been some IRC chat about the Imbalance With Value Whoring verus Distorter Whoring Verus MIL centre (XP) whoring.

Having a look at last round stats.
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=200430

Would indicate a heavy Stagger towards Value whoring.

The last time I can recall where value whoring wasn't effective was back in r16 where it was better known as the crazy XP round.

I know the PA team have made changes this round (R57) as per http://game.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=changes

-Construction costs have been changed. Previously they were:
metal cost * (number of this type of structure + 1) of metal
They will now be
metal cost * (number of this type of structure + 1)*(1-number of this type of structure/500) of metal.
This means that, if you build 250 of 1 structure type, you pay approximately 33% less overall in terms of total cost of resources.
-Structure Defence structures will be effective up to 10% of your maximum structures, with every 1% of your structures reducing the amount of structures you can lose to SKs by 1%. This means that having 10% of your structures as Structure Defence structures makes you immune from structure killers

These Do Make for example Distorter Whoring more effective as you would be hard to SK (land an attack with structure killers) with having structure defence built. (Will need to do the maths with say dist whoring total xan with 10% SDs v a total ter scanner to see how effective it is to be scannable)

Whilst it is cheaper to produce Military centres there is no real fundamental "tweaking" of this to alter its effect as a viable means of winning.

It might be too late to make changes for r57 but I would like the PA team to give this consideration for r58.

Thoughts / comments please.
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Unread 24 May 2014, 21:53   #2
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Re: Value v Dist v MIL(XP)

Well xp whoring is perfectly valid, but not due to mil centers. And distorters is just bad the way it works now.

The biggest limitation of strategy diversity is the governments tho. There is one clear way to go. And ur almost forced to go it.
Democracy into Corp.

And sk structures doesnt help distorters. Sk structures is just sking yourself 10% instead of letting someone else do it.

Distorters is bad cause a major source of a players value comes from refineries and fc's which a distwhore wont have. And being unable to be scanned doesnt make you invulnerable to attacks especially not at the roid numbers you would need to have to compete with planets that have income from refs and fcs..
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Unread 25 May 2014, 00:56   #3
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Re: Value v Dist v MIL(XP)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
Distorters is bad cause a major source of a players value comes from refineries and fc's which a distwhore wont have. And being unable to be scanned doesnt make you invulnerable to attacks especially not at the roid numbers you would need to have to compete with planets that have income from refs and fcs..
Dist-whoring is not a valid strategy to achieve anything besides annoying people as like you said there is little advantage in that, one is still attacked. In order to keep a good amount of dists to be able to fake most targets the last modification which made distorters cost 750 con units was enough.

Military Centers could have a boost idd. Xp-whoring plays a big role in ally ranking but almost zero in planet.
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Unread 25 May 2014, 09:26   #4
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Re: Value v Dist v MIL(XP)

Yeah umm xp whoring is good pre tick 400 or post tick 1000 imo. It's not a valid strategy to win or realistically rank t50 as a planet.

As plaguu says the game almost forces you to go demo then Corp so governments have no 'tactics' as this path is overly OP compared to any other combination.

I think this could be debated for a long time but if the goal is to win the game then value is only path to go. Income is the most important thing in this game and having a setup that makes the most of that will just push you ahead over any other start over time.

The fact both other styles are done at the expense of income means they will never prevail over 7 weeks.
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Unread 25 May 2014, 09:33   #5
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Re: Value v Dist v MIL(XP)

If pa team wanted to make there be different strategies to win then there is one really simple solution that actually wouldn't ruin the game.

Goodbye FC'S and Refs.

Then you have disting as a valid tactic. Aswell as ampwhoring for a normal player. Or pds for self protection or mc's for xpwhores.

Governments become an actual important part of the round then as income boost would only come from there and would it be better long term than con boost???
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Unread 25 May 2014, 10:31   #6
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Re: Value v Dist v MIL(XP)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
If pa team wanted to make there be different strategies to win then there is one really simple solution that actually wouldn't ruin the game.

Goodbye FC'S and Refs.

Then you have disting as a valid tactic. Aswell as ampwhoring for a normal player. Or pds for self protection or mc's for xpwhores.

Governments become an actual important part of the round then as income boost would only come from there and would it be better long term than con boost???
If something is imbalanced you nerf it(or buff other shit) you dont remove it
The thing tho is that corp and refs are great tools for players outside of the best alliances, or not in alliances at all. Which is cool but when its also the best tool for everyone else smth should change imo
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Unread 25 May 2014, 11:11   #7
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Re: Value v Dist v MIL(XP)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
If something is imbalanced you nerf it(or buff other shit) you dont remove it
The thing tho is that corp and refs are great tools for players outside of the best alliances, or not in alliances at all. Which is cool but when its also the best tool for everyone else smth should change imo

What my suggestion was actually making the point of is that there is no Val vs Dist vs MIL debate. Value always wins and when you have 2 constructions that boost income which produce more value and the other ways to play the game are done at the expense of having these 2 constructions then no other strategy can ever compete with value.

IF pa team decided they wanted to make the game winnable for players who decided to XPwhore or distwhore or ampwhore or just whore (hi lotl! ) even just to allow them to have competitive planets rather than just being also rans once the rankings are final then realitically the only way to do is to remove the income boosting constructions. Valuewhoring should be gained via actively defending and keeping your roids. The other strategies are for 'less active' players. I think it would make more people want to try distwhoring, which is a great way to play, also brings more attention and need for active decent scanners and FINALLY makes SKs a viable build tactic as removal of Dists/Amps and MILs can affect all of these strats whereas taking 6 FCs off a 2k roid planet has 0 imapct on their income really.
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Unread 25 May 2014, 11:23   #8
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Re: Value v Dist v MIL(XP)

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
What my suggestion was actually making the point of is that there is no Val vs Dist vs MIL debate. Value always wins and when you have 2 constructions that boost income which produce more value and the other ways to play the game are done at the expense of having these 2 constructions then no other strategy can ever compete with value.

IF pa team decided they wanted to make the game winnable for players who decided to XPwhore or distwhore or ampwhore or just whore (hi lotl! ) even just to allow them to have competitive planets rather than just being also rans once the rankings are final then realitically the only way to do is to remove the income boosting constructions. Valuewhoring should be gained via actively defending and keeping your roids. The other strategies are for 'less active' players. I think it would make more people want to try distwhoring, which is a great way to play, also brings more attention and need for active decent scanners and FINALLY makes SKs a viable build tactic as removal of Dists/Amps and MILs can affect all of these strats whereas taking 6 FCs off a 2k roid planet has 0 imapct on their income really.
well ur just plain wrong about the only way being to remove em. You could just nerf em to accomplish the same thing
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Unread 25 May 2014, 12:15   #9
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Re: Value v Dist v MIL(XP)

Top alliances should go for value 99% of the time. Dists just another part of the game
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Unread 25 May 2014, 12:38   #10
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Re: Value v Dist v MIL(XP)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
well ur just plain wrong about the only way being to remove em. You could just nerf em to accomplish the same thing
Well no because in whatever nerfed form they exsist they still provide a better option than nothing. If you nerfed then by 70% then they would still provide an income boostthat the other strats don't. They would still help you outvalue your rivals. All the time they exsist with any pay out then the other strats don't work. Simple.
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Unread 25 May 2014, 12:59   #11
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Re: Value v Dist v MIL(XP)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
(Will need to do the maths with say dist whoring total xan with 10% SDs v a total ter scanner to see how effective it is to be scannable)
Did the maths with going Tot xan 35% pop on construction 10% SD V Tot ter 35% pop on construction you would be unscannable upto pt 740ish -pt780ish

All depends when the paid bonus is burned on construction.

What I would need to calc up is the "lost" value loss on going Dists v Refs and FCs. (also taking into account of costs of having 93+ alert to be immune from the amp/dist blowing cov op)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Goodbye FC'S and Refs.
I would like to see Refs and FCs left as they are and MIL centres tweaked im suggesting an increase of say 1% to 1.5% and Distorters could for example get resources like 100% absorbsion for Blocking scans but there is potental for abuse in the later.
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Unread 25 May 2014, 13:52   #12
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Re: Value v Dist v MIL(XP)

Everyone seems to have some misconception that 'tweaking' will have some massive effect on how the game is played.

It wont.

If you wanna MILwhore or Distwhore or Ampwhore you cannot go Corp, you just wouldnt generate the CPU output to stay inline or ahead of the curve.

If you are just building refs or FC's then you can go Corp, as it is kind of irrelevant as to wether you get 60 fcs at tick 500 or 700 aslong as you have them and they pay off then its good. Which means you can benefit from the additional 24% mining bonus from corp whilst also having the 30% from 60 FCs which all the other cannot have... so basically you are making 50% more per tick than some distwhore of equal roids. THIS IS HUGE. If you are both making 200k a tick base then you make an additional 100k a tick than the distwhore!!!!!!!

And this is just a basic setup in PA, this isnt something specialised.

Until the game is made so that resources are based solely around research and roids then no other viable strategy to win planet exsists.

If you really want distwhoring to be a great strat then it needs a proper buff above amps. Even to the point where maybe total amps is capped and dists arent. Why shouldnt someone be unscannable? i hate that its a wasted endevour because you can only get 249 dists and 1 fact and the scanner can get 250 amps and not need the factory.

You work out things with your funky maths Paisley but value will always win, as will amps over dists as its a dedicated area of the game rather than an addition to a normal planet (as dists is). If you want a good planet that ranks well then you need FCs and refs the rest is a waste of building time.
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Unread 25 May 2014, 14:09   #13
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Re: Value v Dist v MIL(XP)

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Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
Sk structures is just sking yourself 10% instead of letting someone else do it.
Not quite, building SK structures only cost you 10% of your structures once - instead of letting someone else do it as often as they wish (or can get through).
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Unread 25 May 2014, 14:39   #14
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Re: Value v Dist v MIL(XP)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Everyone seems to have some misconception that 'tweaking' will have some massive effect on how the game is played.

It wont.

If you wanna MILwhore or Distwhore or Ampwhore you cannot go Corp, you just wouldnt generate the CPU output to stay inline or ahead of the curve.

If you are just building refs or FC's then you can go Corp, as it is kind of irrelevant as to wether you get 60 fcs at tick 500 or 700 aslong as you have them and they pay off then its good. Which means you can benefit from the additional 24% mining bonus from corp whilst also having the 30% from 60 FCs which all the other cannot have... so basically you are making 50% more per tick than some distwhore of equal roids. THIS IS HUGE. If you are both making 200k a tick base then you make an additional 100k a tick than the distwhore!!!!!!!

And this is just a basic setup in PA, this isnt something specialised.

Until the game is made so that resources are based solely around research and roids then no other viable strategy to win planet exsists.

If you really want distwhoring to be a great strat then it needs a proper buff above amps. Even to the point where maybe total amps is capped and dists arent. Why shouldnt someone be unscannable? i hate that its a wasted endevour because you can only get 249 dists and 1 fact and the scanner can get 250 amps and not need the factory.

You work out things with your funky maths Paisley but value will always win, as will amps over dists as its a dedicated area of the game rather than an addition to a normal planet (as dists is). If you want a good planet that ranks well then you need FCs and refs the rest is a waste of building time.
Atleast paisley does math, unlike you... Love how you got to the 50% magic number.
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Unread 25 May 2014, 15:12   #15
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Re: Value v Dist v MIL(XP)

Each fc is 0.5% 60 fc = 30%

Corp mining is 24%

Add them together and you get 54%.

I rounded down to 50% for simplicity, I didn't wanna be overly technical in showing my point.

I left out the 25% mining as both can add that on regardless.
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Unread 25 May 2014, 23:43   #16
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Re: Value v Dist v MIL(XP)

The question of Distwhoring is how to make the most of the unscanable advantage.

As Kaiba said you would need to have substantial Roid count to compensate for the loss of refs and FCs

but there is potental for that advantage to be loss through a Galmate being an ingal JGP probe by copying and pasting the galstatus.
The MoW can see your ships especially if you are the only Xan ingal.
Alliance mates can see your ships on the fleetspage.

Would need to do the math on the value loss (dist whoring v refs and FCs) and that wont be so easily done.

I would still play for value by refs and FCs as the game stands
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Unread 26 May 2014, 00:40   #17
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Re: Value v Dist v MIL(XP)

Realistically too people can guess at your fleet via your value if you are a distwhore so unless you have built awkwardly they can have a punt at deffing you.

The problem with anything except valuewhoring is the gap in value post tick 700. Valuewhores just pull away massively then. It might be fun to play a round as a distwhore but if you want p- rank then just no.
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Unread 26 May 2014, 01:20   #18
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Re: Value v Dist v MIL(XP)

There could be grounds to increase max structures from 250 to 300
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Unread 26 May 2014, 01:49   #19
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Re: Value v Dist v MIL(XP)

50 more refs for ters!
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Unread 26 May 2014, 12:07   #20
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Re: Value v Dist v MIL(XP)

Ohh, look here. It's disting. My pet peeve!

Problems with disting:
1) Unit scans show your fleet (dist whoring as Xan is not viable) and are unblockable.
2) Landing scans show whether you have defense and are unblockable.
3) Dedicated high-amp scanners do not care about their value and are fed by the alliance fund. Dist whores do, and are not.
4) The only way to boost your income as a dist whore is by capping a lot of roids, which increases your attractiveness as a target. You can't build FCs or refs, and have no time for core mining research.
5) With dists, your research is disproportionally allocated to infrastructure (to support your dists) and HCT (to support the roids you need to compete with value whores). This leaves little opportunity to invest in travel time, making it hard to defend your alliance, reducing the likelihood you'll get defense in return.

Possible solutions:
1) Some scans could be harder to block than others, but unblockable scans should not exist. Landing and planet scans could be harder to block (say, 100 dists block 50 amps) while jumpgate probes and advanced unit scans could be easier to block (say, 50 dists block 100 amps).
2) High-amp scanners often don't really have to play. They can sit on 200 roids and idle out the round. Significantly increase the cost of amps (+50-100%) to encourages high-amp scanners to build up their roid count, bringing them back into the game. Added bonus: alliance strategy! Roiding high amp scanners (even without SKs) could be a viable way to reduce the ability of your enemies to scan you.
3) Distwhores need to allocate a disproportionate part of their income to building dists (and defending them against cov ops). Make dists significantly cheaper (-30-50%), or chance the order of growth of dist costs from linear to logarithmic.

Non-solutions:
1) Make amp/dist ratios determine the chance a scan gets through. A chance, taken enough times, is a certainty. This is functionally equivalent to making all scans unblockable.
2) Make guards cheaper. Helps everyone equally.
3) Make guards more expensive. Hurts everyone equally, except scanners, who won't give a shit, defeating the point.
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Unread 26 May 2014, 14:33   #21
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Re: Value v Dist v MIL(XP)

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Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
Not quite, building SK structures only cost you 10% of your structures once - instead of letting someone else do it as often as they wish (or can get through).
Yeah but its like a house insurance where you pay 40% of what your house is worth every year
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