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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 09:35   #1
Radical Edward
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crazy people
thought you lot might enjoy this:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0055/0055_01.asp
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 09:58   #2
Nofutcha
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Re: crazy people
normally i attempt to make relevant comment, or poke fun at peoples tastes in various things when i post.

However, i am lost for words after reading that.

It was either a) stupid b) pointless c) funny or d) insane.

Im sure it was something, maybe i just dont have a passion for science and know nothing of the subject
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 13:18   #3
MrL_JaKiri
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Re: crazy people
Creationists are always depressing, using stylised rhetoric over actual content.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 13:40   #4
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Re: crazy people
Most Christians I know concede that evolution happened under the watchful eye of God and that 'The world being made in seven days' is a metaphor for evolution made simple so people 2000 years ago would understand it.

It's the big bang they argue against...
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 13:42   #5
MrL_JaKiri
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Re: crazy people
That has much more evidence than 'Evolutionism'.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 13:44   #6
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
That has much more evidence than 'Evolutionism'.
It's still called Big Bang theory.
What evidence is there?
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 13:46   #7
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
It's still called Big Bang theory.
Before this conversation can continue, can you please find the scientific meaning of theory, and specifically how it relates to empricism.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 13:49   #8
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Re: crazy people
Can someone please kill everyone in the world who says "Why do you think it's called a theory?".

Thanks in advance.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 13:49   #9
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Re: crazy people
no, don't want to and you can't make me.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 13:50   #10
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
no, don't want to and you can't make me.
Are you sure you're not a creationist?
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 13:51   #11
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Re: crazy people
not a creationist... Not by a long shot...
I occupy the middle ground by thinking "Who knows for sure?"
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 13:52   #12
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Re: crazy people
That cartoon does make a point. We just accept evolution as fact, I doubt whether many of us even know what evidence is used to come up with the theories.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 13:52   #13
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Re: crazy people
Oh good lord.

I've seen similar propaganda before but it was never so insane. Also, I've never seen it used as a marketing ploy before.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 13:53   #14
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
That cartoon does make a point. We just accept evolution as fact, I doubt whether many of us even know what evidence is used to come up with the theories.
I've never been to France, so I don't think it exists.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 13:57   #15
ChubbyChecker
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Re: crazy people
I never met Jesus so I don't think he ever existed.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 13:59   #16
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
I never met Jesus so I don't think he ever existed.
I'm not understanding what you're trying to say here; it's definitely not reinforcing your previous position.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 14:05   #17
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Re: crazy people
I'm just saying that people ridicule Bible bashers for relying on faith when many of those who believe in the scientific answer are relying on faith just as much.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 14:11   #18
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Re: crazy people
Ultimately all scientific belief comes down to axiomatic decisions. Religious faith does not.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 14:14   #19
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
I'm just saying that people ridicule Bible bashers for relying on faith when many of those who believe in the scientific answer are relying on faith just as much.
I'd suggest that there's an elemental difference between something which everyone takes on faith, and something for which there is sufficient evidence to prove that it exists.

Examine my statement 'I don't believe france exists because I've never been there'. Obviously, despite me never having been, there is enough evidence to suggest that it is highly likely that France exists, whether I know of it or not, and backed up by the fact that people HAVE been to france, and thus do know it exists.

On the other hand, we have the assertion that that there existed a man who was the son of god. As there is insufficient evidence to suggest god exists, rather than the france assumption of the existance of countries, and there is noone who has contradictory evidence, and there are no repeatable experiments involved, it cannot be assumed (by empiricism) to be true.

You're also missing the point that the people who ridicule creationists don't say anything about the supporters of either side, and that people can believe what they like; however, the evidence points in another direction, and is there for all to discover.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 14:15   #20
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by sayonara
Ultimately all scientific belief comes down to axiomatic decisions. Religious faith does not.
That too.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 14:37   #21
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Re: crazy people
My god, that was so stupid I didn't even bother to finish it.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 14:40   #22
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParraCida
My god, that was so stupid I didn't even bother to finish it.
you have to read the bit about the protons in the nucleus not flying apart because God holds them together. I thought this one was funny... what happens in nuclear bombs and nuclear power stations? God gets bored?
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 14:41   #23
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
That cartoon does make a point. We just accept evolution as fact, I doubt whether many of us even know what evidence is used to come up with the theories.

that is not the point of the cartoon though. The point of the cartoon is to try to uphold a religious view through misinformation. (it is promoting a God of the Gaps)
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 14:47   #24
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by sayonara
Ultimately all scientific belief comes down to axiomatic decisions. Religious faith does not.
Dogma?
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 14:47   #25
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Re: crazy people
I don't know enough (ie I know nothing) about this area of science to argue about it, but I know enough to know that there are flaws in these scientific arguments. The evidence of some of these facts is pretty shakey. Look at that comic for example, where he shows the chart with the different types of humans and what piece of evidence was used to construct them, eg one single tooth. That might be complete bollocks, but it's the sort of thing I'm talking about. Such as when physicists make up new laws and ditch old ones to reflect the evidence they find.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 14:49   #26
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by W
Dogma?
Is that "What about rel/sci dogma?" or "as in the film Dogma?"

?
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 14:50   #27
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Re: crazy people
Chubby:

Their own ignorance of the scientific method does not give creationists license to portray scientists as lying ogres.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 14:51   #28
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
The evidence of some of these facts is pretty shakey.
it is all completely false in fact.
Quote:
Look at that comic for example, where he shows the chart with the different types of humans and what piece of evidence was used to construct them, eg one single tooth. That might be complete bollocks,
you got that right.
Quote:
but it's the sort of thing I'm talking about. Such as when physicists make up new laws and ditch old ones to reflect the evidence they find.
well that is the scientific method for you. generally it turns out that the old rules are just approximations of something more accurate.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 14:51   #29
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by sayonara
Is that "What about rel/sci dogma?" or "as in the film Dogma?"

?
either answer is cool. amazing how W manages to cram two cool posts into one.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 14:52   #30
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Re: crazy people
oh heh, the source that the cartoonist got his inspiration from thinks that a hyrax (a sort of rodent that lives in turkey) is the same as a hyracotherium (early horse)
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 14:58   #31
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Re: crazy people
Why aren't you on SFN as much anymore? :-(
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 15:06   #32
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by sayonara
Why aren't you on SFN as much anymore? :-(
well it got a bit boring to be honest. I should pop in again to see if it has improved.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 15:14   #33
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Re: crazy people
That cartoon was doing well until it abandoned all vestiges of rationality and went bouncing off into the sunset in the last few cartoons. Sort of loses the humour, he should have started preaching the virtues of my giant bunny rabbit orbiting pluto controlling us all theory. Apparently according to people here it was all shit though



PS Haven't researched evolution at all as it's not really that important to my personal beliefs. Anyone got any decent recommendations? If you recommend Darwin I'm going to find you and piss in your letterbox by the way.





PPS Eagerly awaiting the day we declare war on the creationists.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 15:15   #34
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

PS Haven't researched evolution at all as it's not really that important to my personal beliefs. Anyone got any decent recommendations? If you recommend Darwin I'm going to find you and piss in your letterbox by the way.
Richard Dawkins - The Selfish Gene
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 15:21   #35
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Re: crazy people
Creationism as a movement was actually debunked in the early 20th century then again in the 70s.

The web has a way of repopularising crap, because there are always people who can't be bothered to spend 20 years studying something, but can damned well make sure they malign anyone who does.

The enitre movement relies on science and religion being in direct opposition, which they certainly are not.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 15:39   #36
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
That cartoon does make a point. We just accept evolution as fact, I doubt whether many of us even know what evidence is used to come up with the theories.
No he doesn't. There are so many errors in it he just makes himself look stupid.

Also, it's very selective of what things it brings up, like the fossils found to be fake. Why even mention that when there are a huge number of fossils that do show the trend? Could they be *gasp* scraping the bottom of the barrel?
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 15:45   #37
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Re: crazy people
The fact that some evidence that most scientists disregard anyway does not stand up to scrutiny does not to my mind imply that I should immediately adopt foundless and irrational beliefs.

But then I'm a mad scientist.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 17:12   #38
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParraCida
My god, that was so stupid I didn't even bother to finish it.
I was honestly expecting a punchline
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 17:49   #39
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
That cartoon was doing well until it abandoned all vestiges of rationality and went bouncing off into the sunset ............

in the first picture.....
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 17:57   #40
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
in the first picture.....
Yeah but I don't know anything about evolution so I was easily misled until it approached the end and the information became more and more ridiculous, culminating in god holds protons and neutrons together which concerns an area I actually do know something about. That and the giant leap from attempting (trying to convince everyone it's attempting) to use rational argument to assuming things for no reason based on faith. Y'know?
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 18:22   #41
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
PS Haven't researched evolution at all as it's not really that important to my personal beliefs. Anyone got any decent recommendations? If you recommend Darwin I'm going to find you and piss in your letterbox by the way..
Miscellaneous SJ Gould (all his essays are worth reading) and Dawkins 'The Blind Watchmaker'.

I also like 'Darwin's Dangerous Idea' by Daniel Dennett, although I suspect by recommending that Giles will shout at me
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 18:22   #42
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Re: crazy people
The most unbelievable thing about that whole story is that a student would actually care enough to argue with a Teacher.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 18:22   #43
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Re: crazy people
dace
you haven't been to uni have you?
IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 18:26   #44
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aryn
dace
you haven't been to uni have you?
IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME


I beg to disagree. I have no intentions of arguing in my lectures. They'll probably label me a KKK member and hang me outside while burning copies of Atlas Shrugged.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 18:29   #45
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I beg to disagree. I have no intentions of arguing in my lectures. They'll probably label me a KKK member and hang me outside while burning copies of Atlas Shrugged.
I hate people heckling the lecturer (even if they're talking bollocks) but arguing in seminars is good. I'm glad political correct fascism keeps deviants like you quiet though.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 18:34   #46
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I hate people heckling the lecturer (even if they're talking bollocks) but arguing in seminars is good. I'm glad political correct fascism keeps deviants like you quiet though.
You're calling me a deviant? Plus I plan on arguing in tutorials seeing as there's less people and I'm more likely to be able to break free and dive through the window to freedom. The only good things about college so far is the amount of marxist material I've been provided with. If I'm ever homeless I have a great supply of kindling for a fire






Or alternatively I could drop them on the socialist workers' party conference from a great height. The combined weight should be enough to kill a few commies!
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 18:46   #47
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Re: crazy people
"COUNTER ARGUMENTS HO!"

[/Thundercats]



About the comic:

You can GET OUT of MY class!! After you've apologised to everyone for your rudeness and ignorance we MIGHT let you back in!

- That is bullshit and would never happen.

HOLD IT, YOU FANATIC!

- That would never happen.

Only the last one has been observed and can be called science. The first 5 are believed by faith.

- 1.) Cosmic evolution. Physics aint my strong point but i think the Big Bang created Helium (and is the proof that the Big Bang was "hot" or something ... we know this due to the high levels, 10% or so, of helium in the make-up of the sun. Helium levels shouldn't be that high or something).

- 2.) Chemical evolution. I think Physics has "proved" chemical "evolution" (ie man made elements or something ... some radioactive elements are man made i think). Anyways science has shown how transfer of electrons (? / atoms) makes one element into another.

- 3.) Evolution of stars and planets from Gas. I think this HAS been observed (telescopes etc).

- 4.) Organic Evolution. Science is still arguing about how exactly this was done. People are trying to figure out the specific conditions needed. Once they figure it out and recreate those conditions and "life" evolves then i think that will be proof.

- 5.) Macro Evolution. "Birds". I'll leave it at that otherwise it'll take too long.

- 6.) Micro Evolution. I think this has been proven. Experiments with viruses etc. Show that they develop/mutate. Eventually they can no longer recombinate ("breed" for non science types ... actually it means swap genetic info but nevermind its the same difference) with the "original" virus. New characteristics and an inability to "breed" with the "old type" is the definition of a new species (or something).


The "evolution from monkey" thing is archaelogy and i dont really know enough about it to start arguing (ie i cant remember detaisl). However when presented with the argument it convinced me so ...



"All these layers of earth are millions of years different in age. We can tell the age of these layers by the fossil they contain."

- I don't think it works that way. They tell the age of the rock from other processes (chemical analysis, make up etc etc etc). Then they get the age of the fossil.

"The embryo thing"

- I wasn't taught about that (or had it used as proof) and i did a genetics degree which obviously had a shit load of evolution in it.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 18:50   #48
Deepflow
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Re: crazy people
the other comic strips are just as offensive!

look look!
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 18:52   #49
Dace
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Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aryn
dace
you haven't been to uni have you?
IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME


I have been to Uni.

I didn't see it happening.

TBH tho i was talking about school (as in High School) as that is where i thought the comic was based.
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Unread 10 Nov 2003, 18:54   #50
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Exclamation Re: crazy people
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
You're calling me a deviant? Plus I plan on arguing in tutorials seeing as there's less people and I'm more likely to be able to break free and dive through the window to freedom. The only good things about college so far is the amount of marxist material I've been provided with. If I'm ever homeless I have a great supply of kindling for a fire
What decade are you living in, and where are you located? Paris in the 60's?

If not, then tell all the ****ers to pull themselves together, or you're going to call in The CIA.

Marxism, indeed. Well I never.
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