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22 Jul 2011, 13:51
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#101
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 47
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Re: Nighttime protection
Why are people even considering protecting planets during the night? I think the greater problem Planetarion has is that there's no action during the day - there's hardly anything to do during the day which makes it an incredibly boring game.
One of the unique features of the game is that the action should be 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. If everyone is attacking during European night time hours, then the game itself should be changed so that it's actually possible to do something during the day - instead of it being impossible to launch due to everyone being around to defend incoming fleets.
Promote attacking at any time. Rework the game so I could login when I get home from work and actually do something for a couple of hours.
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22 Jul 2011, 14:47
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#102
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil M
Why are people even considering protecting planets during the night? I think the greater problem Planetarion has is that there's no action during the day - there's hardly anything to do during the day which makes it an incredibly boring game.
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This is just another way of looking at the exact same problem.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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22 Jul 2011, 15:12
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#103
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
Some of these so called "inactives" are actually people who gave the game a try, and quit the game after one too many times after they went to sleep and got up next day to find that their roids and ships were gone. Many of these people would also enjoy the game if they could be part of an alliance. But let's be real, because of the game mechanics, every decent alliance asks you the same question in order to accept you as member: "Are you willing to come online at nights if called / sms'd?". For most normal people, the answer is "not really, no", which leaves them allianceless at the very least, and exiled around to boot.
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I've always been a firm believer of "pulling your weight in an alliance" those who do not defend enough imo deserve to go on no defence and eventually kicked and roided regardless of their time zone.
I like some of the suggestions made like abolish/heavily reduce prelaunch for attacking and maybe defending fleets. (would need testing to determine correct balance) This would reduce the amount off incs to defend and hence reduce the demand for more defence at "peak time" around 12-5am game time.
However
I think there are other game mechanisms that could be taken into consideration is staggered xp/roid capture from what time you launch/land at and maybe a reduction in salvage for the defenders at off peak times.
__________________
Missing Subh (r15-r18)
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22 Jul 2011, 15:16
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#104
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil M
Promote attacking at any time. Rework the game so I could login when I get home from work and actually do something for a couple of hours.
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How?
This is the exact problem but it's easier defined than solved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
I like some of the suggestions made like abolish/heavily reduce prelaunch for attacking and maybe defending fleets.
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Yeah.
I'd be very tempted to agree that sending prelaunching attacks back to the moon in which it was born might be a really good idea all in all.
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22 Jul 2011, 18:35
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#105
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Valle is my hero
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,581
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Re: Nighttime protection
Really this whole problem would be solved with a massive reduction in prelaunch times - maybe 1-2 ticks maximum allowed. This would mean that really if you wanted to, as a European, launch at 4am then you would have to get up earlier or to sleep a lot later. This i feel would promote a lot more 'day raiding' and 24/7 attacking, because Europeans would be fighting other Europeans whilst the Yanks slept and vice versa with the austrailains cross mixing the two like they do atm - it would atleast cause there to be large amounts of attacks launching around 11am-12pm and so on because this would be 5-6am for yanks and just keep the game more even.
As i think Paisley said this would reduce the need for getting smsed at 3am (or supposedly phoned in Apprime (sod that)) as the incommings would be spread throught the 24 hrs rather than squeezed into a 5 hr slot.
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22 Jul 2011, 20:03
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#106
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Bolivian Alpaca
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 912
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba
Really this whole problem would be solved with a massive reduction in prelaunch times - maybe 1-2 ticks maximum allowed. This would mean that really if you wanted to, as a European, launch at 4am then you would have to get up earlier or to sleep a lot later. This i feel would promote a lot more 'day raiding' and 24/7 attacking, ...
... this would reduce the need for getting smsed at 3am (or supposedly phoned in Apprime (sod that)) as the incommings would be spread throught the 24 hrs rather than squeezed into a 5 hr slot.
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You are again treating the symptoms instead of the disease. Back in the days PA didn't have prelaunches attacking was not spread evenly, why would it spread evenly now if we remove them? Removing PL Attacks would only mean that the dominant (read: most night active) alliance would have an even easier time growing even faster and would probably dominate / stagnate the game by midround. (Those who have played PIA will probably understand this faster than the others).
The only thing that will force players to spread their attacks during the day is banning nighttime launches. If you want to "reward" someone for being night-active, fine, do it by reducing construction / research speed or mining output during the night if you are not online. If you log on, then your speed goes back to normal. But don't encourage getting up in the middle of the night for roiding /defending!
__________________
"I throw myself into the sea, release the wave, let it wash over me ..."
MadCowS - Angels - eXilition - Destiny - Wolfpack - Jenova - p3nguins
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23 Jul 2011, 10:35
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#107
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Mind-boggling
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Devon, England
Posts: 1,468
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Re: Nighttime protection
The initial 'new concept' by Gio is interesting. Wouldn't it be nice to not fear incomings at god-forbidden hours...
However this would lead to a huge problem. If all the action happened between 09:00 onwards the older PA players who do not live of benefits, and are not enrolled in full time education would suffer the consequences immediately...
If this was the case, being only able to launch attacks from 09:00 (GMT) onwards the majority of activity would be happening between 09-12 at peak working hours... let's face it.. most euro's work hard between 9-12 and then relax more in the afternoon. Plus the younger pa players, whats left of them, will not be able to play activity at school.
Pre-Launch works... Now people can set their fleets to attack when they are not available to do so live. Defending your planet in the night is a luxury for those dedicated players who surely deserve that ability by showing there activity/dedication to the cause...
All this game needs is a way to play it effectively on an APP (whether it be Iphone or another smartphone - preferably integrated on all) and some Jagex style advertising... Obviously you would need to be able to use the APP to chat to your galaxy/alliance et cetra....
Imagine how powerful it would be advertising PA on runescape banners... preferably with a link to dl an app to play a 24/7 browser based game.. It would generate interest, surely?
__________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. (Winston Churchill)
R21-Randy Dandys Winners R21
1:9:5 -SoClose- -YetSoFar-
You have pending friend requests from Newt.
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23 Jul 2011, 17:09
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#108
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Guest
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Re: Nighttime protection
Nice post CBA!
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23 Jul 2011, 17:32
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#109
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General (Adjective Army)
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Yorkshire, England.
Posts: 825
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA
Pre-Launch works... Now people can set their fleets to attack when they are not available to do so live. Defending your planet in the night is a luxury for those dedicated players who surely deserve that ability by showing there activity/dedication to the cause...
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Those are the exact reasons that pre-launch *doesn't* work. As you rightly say, everyone can set their fleets to attack - but only the active players can defend. This is what has led to the "hardcore" practice of sending SMS messages to alliance (or galaxy) members and getting them out of bed to help with defence.
If the intention of pre-launch was to make attacking easier and defence impossible (for the casual player) then you could say that it works. Unfortunately, I believe that the casual player soon gets tired of losing his constructions and roids - in fact I'm not fond of it happening to me on those rare occasions when I actually want to sleep at a "reasonable" hour.
Removing pre-launch would be, I believe, a step in the right direction. Yes, it would mean that the active players/alliances would still have the advantage of launching attacks at "prime time" but there would be less launches at 03:00/04:00 GMT in total - and it's possible that even a few of the actives would change their launch times to something a bit more reasonable.
An additonal benefit would be that players would be online for a (possibly short) time after launching and would therefore be able to offer defence at peak times - but that's a different (and much discussed) topic.
Looking at the suggestion by the O.P. I think it has considerable merit. The devil, as always, would be in the detail. My view would be that the parameters should be set at the signing up stage and should be fixed for the duration of the round. It might also be an idea to cater for the hardcore players by allowing them to opt out - but again as an irreversible choice at sign-up.
One cautionary note - I think there's still a ot of discussion to be had on this subject before anyone starts thinking about implementing any changes. I'd hate to see a partially developed version of it appear in R44.
__________________
Amnion (aka The Arcane Chas of Arcania) - Playing PA under those and other pseudonyms every genuine round since Round 2. Most recently (and insignificantly):
Onset of Apathy R94 | Stacks of Resources R95 | The Necromancer of Dol Guldur R96
70 Years of Queen Elizabeth R97 | Worst of The Worst R98
Knights of the Green Shield R99 | Look Out of The Window R100 | Most of All R102
Hard of Hearing (2:7:1) R103 | The Lateness of Your Application (1:6:6) R104 | Kinnison of Tellus (5:1:2) R105
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24 Jul 2011, 03:14
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#110
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Always MadcowS
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 439
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba
Really this whole problem would be solved with a massive reduction in prelaunch times - maybe 1-2 ticks maximum allowed. This would mean that really if you wanted to, as a European, launch at 4am then you would have to get up earlier or to sleep a lot later. This i feel would promote a lot more 'day raiding' and 24/7 attacking, because Europeans would be fighting other Europeans whilst the Yanks slept and vice versa with the austrailains cross mixing the two like they do atm - it would atleast cause there to be large amounts of attacks launching around 11am-12pm and so on because this would be 5-6am for yanks and just keep the game more even.
As i think Paisley said this would reduce the need for getting smsed at 3am (or supposedly phoned in Apprime (sod that)) as the incommings would be spread throught the 24 hrs rather than squeezed into a 5 hr slot.
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Anything that forces me to change my sleep habbits is not welcome. I will not stay up until/at 4 am just to launch a fleet and wake up at 6 am to go to work/uni.
PL isn't a bad thing. Allow PLing but put a handicap on it, that's it.
My active pa days are over and now i feel like if I don't sacrifice my life for it I can't be successful at it. This way PA will not hold any newbies. They'll come, look, get roided, and leave. Perhaps they will join an alliance where they will moan at him for not getting online at night which again leads to them leaving pa.
Make this game enjoyable. Reward those who put more effort in it but don't make it impossible to play for those who can't do so. This game needs tweaking on sooo many things.. I wonder why I still play it seriously.
Spinner I hope you are reading this. Don't make your game as hardcore as this please. Give us casual old timers a chance to compete
__________________
[Flash][Madcows][Howling Rain][Vision][Osiris][horde][xVx]
And...
Relation Change Ascendancy and the Horde are now at war with each other.
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24 Jul 2011, 03:43
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#111
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General (Adjective Army)
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Yorkshire, England.
Posts: 825
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Korsan
I will not stay up until/at 4 am just to launch a fleet and wake up at 6 am to go to work/uni.
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That's the point we're trying to get across - if you don't want to stay up until 04:00 then launch at a different time.
(I agree with the rest of the points you made).
__________________
Amnion (aka The Arcane Chas of Arcania) - Playing PA under those and other pseudonyms every genuine round since Round 2. Most recently (and insignificantly):
Onset of Apathy R94 | Stacks of Resources R95 | The Necromancer of Dol Guldur R96
70 Years of Queen Elizabeth R97 | Worst of The Worst R98
Knights of the Green Shield R99 | Look Out of The Window R100 | Most of All R102
Hard of Hearing (2:7:1) R103 | The Lateness of Your Application (1:6:6) R104 | Kinnison of Tellus (5:1:2) R105
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24 Jul 2011, 11:13
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#112
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Mind-boggling
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Devon, England
Posts: 1,468
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas
Those are the exact reasons that pre-launch *doesn't* work. As you rightly say, everyone can set their fleets to attack - but only the active players can defend. This is what has led to the "hardcore" practice of sending SMS messages to alliance (or galaxy) members and getting them out of bed to help with defence.
If the intention of pre-launch was to make attacking easier and defence impossible (for the casual player) then you could say that it works. Unfortunately, I believe that the casual player soon gets tired of losing his constructions and roids - in fact I'm not fond of it happening to me on those rare occasions when I actually want to sleep at a "reasonable" hour.
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The pre-launch feature enables people that want to sleep for 7-9 hours straight able to play this game competitively.
Furthermore, a couple of key points regarding defending, you can receive defence from galaxy and cluster (i think) eta -1 plus with galaxy defence that gives you another eta-3/5 advantage. I am fully aware quite often you will need more then gal def to fight off incs.
Regarding your statement, " casual player soon gets tired of losing his constructions and roids'". I sincerely doubt the casual player loses too many constructions... As with asteroids of course 'the casual player' will lose many of these but with the run and hide fleet options you now have, it is so easy to use to pre launch attack function to steal them back.
I think I have may it clear that in terms of nighttime protection this game can function quite well without any. As I have mentioned ways to reduce any losses by sleeping. What we need, as expressed in my first post, a modern technology device with the ability to play pa and to use irc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas
Removing pre-launch would be, I believe, a step in the right direction. Yes, it would mean that the active players/alliances would still have the advantage of launching attacks at "prime time" but there would be less launches at 03:00/04:00 GMT in total - and it's possible that even a few of the actives would change their launch times to something a bit more reasonable.
An additonal benefit would be that players would be online for a (possibly short) time after launching and would therefore be able to offer defence at peak times - but that's a different (and much discussed) topic.
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Removing pre-launch would now be a step back. At least now if you create a BP of europeans mixed with some Americans/Canadians you will cover most hours and your incommings will be dealt with effectively. Out of the 500 or so players that are commited to PA now I would estimate around 300 rely on the ability to pre-launch.
To summarise I think any form of Nighttime protection suggested in this thread will not be an efficent measure to make this game for acceptable to the general public/non pa players. What would be an effective measure, as mentioned before, would be a PA app with irc integrated.
__________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. (Winston Churchill)
R21-Randy Dandys Winners R21
1:9:5 -SoClose- -YetSoFar-
You have pending friend requests from Newt.
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24 Jul 2011, 12:35
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#113
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General (Adjective Army)
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Yorkshire, England.
Posts: 825
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA
<snip>
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To address your points in the order you raised them:
Night time protection would allow for everyone to sleep 7-9 hours straight if they so wished.
Defence at -1 is the minimum needed to receive any defence (of the same ship class) at all. However, no one will get any defence at all from players who aren't online (which is the main problem with pre-launching attacks).
SKs in attack fleets are becoming increasing common - even against casual players.
The game is not functioning "quite well" by any criteria you care to choose. An injection of a large number of new players might mask the problems but we're making no progress towards attracting even small numbers of them.
You're right that removing pre-launch would be a step back - but my contention is that it was a mistake to introduce it in the first place. (I said as much at the time).
You may be right with your summary. This idea may not prove to be an efficient measure - but we need to do something. Your idea of an "APP" with integrated IRC is also a good idea. Why don't we try both?
__________________
Amnion (aka The Arcane Chas of Arcania) - Playing PA under those and other pseudonyms every genuine round since Round 2. Most recently (and insignificantly):
Onset of Apathy R94 | Stacks of Resources R95 | The Necromancer of Dol Guldur R96
70 Years of Queen Elizabeth R97 | Worst of The Worst R98
Knights of the Green Shield R99 | Look Out of The Window R100 | Most of All R102
Hard of Hearing (2:7:1) R103 | The Lateness of Your Application (1:6:6) R104 | Kinnison of Tellus (5:1:2) R105
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24 Jul 2011, 14:00
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#114
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Korsan
Anything that forces me to change my sleep habbits is not welcome. I will not stay up until/at 4 am just to launch a fleet and wake up at 6 am to go to work/uni.
PL isn't a bad thing. Allow PLing but put a handicap on it, that's it.
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Please read at least parts of the thread before posting trash on it.
The whole idea of the subject has revolved around changing the game so that it's not necessary to stay up at nights. Allowing pre-launching is just escalating the issue from the other end. Sure, you don't have to be up to launch, however, you'd have to be up to defend. Allowing pre-launching will naturally cause most attacks happen on nights (since it's assumed most people want to sleep at nights), which makes you either wake up to defend your allies/galaxy, or simply not be defended, which makes the newcomers have a relatively hard a time against well-organized veterans with all the time in the world in their hands.
Quote:
Spinner I hope you are reading this. Don't make your game as hardcore as this please. Give us casual old timers a chance to compete
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Paging a moderator to delete this bitch off the thread too. Please.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA
The pre-launch feature enables people that want to sleep for 7-9 hours straight able to play this game competitively.
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Not, it's part reason that enables them to get a lot of incomings.
Complete failure to understand that defending must be linked to attacking and if attacking can be remote controlled when you're asleep but defending can't the side that will suffer from this is defending, and the players that will suffer more are the ones that want to sleep, which form the majority of the human population (that is, people who want to sleep).
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24 Jul 2011, 14:02
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#115
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas
SKs in attack fleets are becoming increasing common - even against casual players.
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it's part because of the perverted fleet slot system which means that since they serve nigh any role in defense fleets (except at worst cases increase ETA), they'll need to be sent somewhere if you 3-fleet out. which means that they'll most likely be in the attack fleets.
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24 Jul 2011, 15:02
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#116
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Nighttime protection
A different tangent altogether, that.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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24 Jul 2011, 15:54
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#117
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Always MadcowS
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 439
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Re: Nighttime protection
Tietäjä before you call my posts trash think about your own suggestion. Think about how PA was before PL was introduced. You HAD to wake up to launch attacks! Alliances didn't shift their attacks to daytime or anytime else. They launch attacks at the same hours since PA was created. PL made it a lot easier for players to participate in attacks when they normally couldn't.
Alliances WILL NOT change their attack times. They will say "Attack with us or get out here". And everyone here knows this is damn true.
Even smaller alliances - by no way hardcore - had their attack times at 02:00-04:00 game time before PL was even there. The PL thing is a response from the devs to players' demands. Taking back this feature will bring us back to pre PL status but nothing will change and the game will get even more hardcore.
[/trash]
__________________
[Flash][Madcows][Howling Rain][Vision][Osiris][horde][xVx]
And...
Relation Change Ascendancy and the Horde are now at war with each other.
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24 Jul 2011, 16:03
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#118
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Korsan
Alliances WILL NOT change their attack times. They will say "Attack with us or get out here". And everyone here knows this is damn true.
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Then do what Mzxyptlk suggested and force-down the game between 00 and 06 and see if alliances will change their launch times or not.
Honestly, you really, really have to read this thread and use your three brain cells to their fullest potential to understand that a) force downtime would actually force things, or b) voluntary downtime would make you a non-target during the sleep period and this would be an effective detraction to attacking you.
Please, I beg you to read at least parts of this thread before you spew any more of it (trash).
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24 Jul 2011, 16:05
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#119
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
A different tangent altogether, that. ![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
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I be very BUT THEY WON'T CHANGE also unfair because 300 players active and my dog scan good and REWARD ACTIVITY and my sister also work for the best of the CURRENT PLAYERS yes.
This you why wrong poster good my argument here's facts I estimate 300 actives who are very vital to the game's future. FACTS. You bad.
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24 Jul 2011, 16:34
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#120
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Always MadcowS
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 439
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Then do what Mzxyptlk suggested and force-down the game between 00 and 06 and see if alliances will change their launch times or not.
Honestly, you really, really have to read this thread and use your three brain cells to their fullest potential to understand that a) force downtime would actually force things, or b) voluntary downtime would make you a non-target during the sleep period and this would be an effective detraction to attacking you.
Please, I beg you to read at least parts of this thread before you spew any more of it (trash).
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I can't understand your hate but I will answer just to make you look like an idiot.
I have never demanded a fix downtime at PA - Learn to read! Maybe you should follow your own suggestion and read the thread yourself! I suggested 2 things:
a) give every player the option to set fix no launch times on him. This protection should be only 2 hours
b) if not a) then set a penalty on either attack at fix night times or a bonus for defending at nighttimes by increased firepower for defenders.
If you read and understand what I wrote please drop a reply so we can go on.
Besides most of this thread is bollocks as it got off topic pretty quick.
And finally I have to emphasize your own suggestion to read the thread: My initial reply was exclusively to Kaiba. I even had a quote in it so I really understand why you act like a monkey missing a banana.
__________________
[Flash][Madcows][Howling Rain][Vision][Osiris][horde][xVx]
And...
Relation Change Ascendancy and the Horde are now at war with each other.
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24 Jul 2011, 16:44
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#121
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Then do what Mzxyptlk suggested and force-down the game between 00 and 06 and see if alliances will change their launch times or not.
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Woah, that's not what I suggested. Putting the entire game on forced sleep mode for a specific 6 hours a day would be pretty stupid. What I meant was that every player would have to choose a daily 6 hour downtime, as opposed of just having the option to. And even that I'm not really invested in that much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
I be very BUT THEY WON'T CHANGE also unfair because 300 players active and my dog scan good and REWARD ACTIVITY and my sister also work for the best of the CURRENT PLAYERS yes.
This you why wrong poster good my argument here's facts I estimate 300 actives who are very vital to the game's future. FACTS. You bad.
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Oh, I see what you did there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Korsan
And finally I have to emphasize your own suggestion to read the thread: My initial reply was exclusively to Kaiba. I even had a quote in it so I really understand why you act like a monkey missing a banana.
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These are public forums. If you want to talk exclusively to Kaiba, PM him.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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24 Jul 2011, 17:00
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#122
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Korsan
I can't understand your hate but I will answer just to make you look like an idiot.
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Instead you answer just to make yourself look like an idiot?
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I have never demanded a fix downtime at PA
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I'll leave this to it's face value.
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Besides most of this thread is bollocks as it got off topic pretty quick.
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Yes, I agree. The thread's in dire need of moderation.
Quote:
And finally I have to emphasize your own suggestion to read the thread: My initial reply was exclusively to Kaiba. I even had a quote in it so I really understand why you act like a monkey missing a banana.
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WOW. YOU HAD A QUOTE ON IT! REALLY?
edit. if your reply was exclusively to 'Kaiba', what was the spinner-moan about? Mohammed's not come to your mountain yet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Woah, that's not what I suggested. Putting the entire game on forced sleep mode for a specific 6 hours a day would be pretty stupid. What I meant was that every player would have to choose a daily 6 hour downtime, as opposed of just having the option to. And even that I'm not really invested in that much.
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Okay. The underlying point was to elaborate that you don't have to dance to the tune of the alliances all the time. And that alliances are not entities that define metagame but entities that apply their methods to the the mechanics in the fashion how they feel is best.
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24 Jul 2011, 17:04
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#123
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Always MadcowS
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 439
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Re: Nighttime protection
I was clearly referring to Kaiba, so I really don't understand why you yell at me? Got nothing else to do or why are you so frustrated? Calm down, take a breath and take some pills if needed. Just calm down..
You are referring to my post as if I was talking to you which I clearly wasn't. So cut it here and - again - calm down!
__________________
[Flash][Madcows][Howling Rain][Vision][Osiris][horde][xVx]
And...
Relation Change Ascendancy and the Horde are now at war with each other.
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24 Jul 2011, 18:09
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#124
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Mind-boggling
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Devon, England
Posts: 1,468
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Re: Nighttime protection
Fine ArcChas, I will address your points:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas
Night time protection would allow for everyone to sleep 7-9 hours straight if they so wished. ![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
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The problem with this is the fact voluntary 6 hours protection would lead to people going into prot at random times whenever incommings are being prepared for their planet.. it would cause vast frustration to many PA players.
Also, if this were to be implemented at a set time each day it simply would not work because of all the different timezones playing pa.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas
Defence at -1 is the minimum needed to receive any defence (of the same ship class) at all. However, no one will get any defence at all from players who aren't online (which is the main problem with pre-launching attacks).
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Actually this point is not quite right.. Most active/hardcore, whatever you wish to call them, players receive pre launch def.. or it least I used to when I played and at the time quite a few others do as well.. We could easily drift off the inital point/s here so I will move on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas
The game is not functioning "quite well" by any criteria you care to choose. An injection of a large number of new players might mask the problems but we're making no progress towards attracting even small numbers of them.
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At the moment this game would not be attractive to the mass market. However adding nighttime protection will not make the game more attractive either... you have referred to my point below.. and whether or not both ideas should be implemented or we could 'try' is not really the point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas
You may be right with your summary. This idea may not prove to be an efficient measure - but we need to do something. Your idea of an "APP" with integrated IRC is also a good idea. Why don't we try both?
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Utilising modern technology is a necessity for improving this game. Implementing some sort of night-time protection should be re-viewed when we have 100k+ players..
Honestly though, Jagex giving this game, sorry - THEIR game, a bit of time and development would be a huge start....
__________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. (Winston Churchill)
R21-Randy Dandys Winners R21
1:9:5 -SoClose- -YetSoFar-
You have pending friend requests from Newt.
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24 Jul 2011, 18:35
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#125
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA
The problem with this is the fact voluntary 6 hours protection would lead to people going into prot at random times whenever incommings are being prepared for their planet.. it would cause vast frustration to many PA players.
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You're in full understanding that this has already been discussed before on this very thread, right?
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24 Jul 2011, 19:00
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#126
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Finally retired
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 788
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Re: Nighttime protection
ok, i've taken a bit of a break from this thread to rethink of a better answer to the complete retardedness of this suggestion.
- Closing down the game at 'nighttime' means attacking at other times.
- At other times more defence is available.
- More available defence decreases the chance of landing.
- A smaller chance of landing means it is harder to gain (and thus regain) roids.
My conclusion: You will loose roids less often, but losing roids will have a greater impact on the future of your planet.
__________________
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24 Jul 2011, 19:03
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#127
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence
ok, i've taken a bit of a break from this thread to rethink of a better answer to the complete retardedness of this suggestion.
- Closing down the game at 'nighttime' means attacking at other times.
- At other times more defence is available.
- More available defence decreases the chance of landing.
- A smaller chance of landing means it is harder to gain (and thus regain) roids.
My conclusion: You will loose roids less often, but losing roids will have a greater impact on the future of your planet.
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That is correct. However,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
the rate at which attacks land is not a fundamental aspect of PA, unlike other constants like the time between launch and land, which below a certain threshold potentially destroy playability. However, in the larger scheme of things, it makes absolutely no difference whether your land rate is 25% or 75%. We've had enjoyable rounds both with defensive and offensive stats.
In any case, there are valid objections to overly defensive stats and sleep protection would indeed swing the balance a bit in favour of defense. If that's considered undesirable, it can be corrected in the stats. There are also other alternatives, like changing salvage rates or init costs.
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__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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24 Jul 2011, 19:12
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#128
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Mind-boggling
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Devon, England
Posts: 1,468
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
You're in full understanding that this has already been discussed before on this very thread, right?
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Yes, thankyou.
__________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. (Winston Churchill)
R21-Randy Dandys Winners R21
1:9:5 -SoClose- -YetSoFar-
You have pending friend requests from Newt.
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24 Jul 2011, 19:32
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#129
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence
ok, i've taken a bit of a break from this thread to rethink of a better answer to the complete retardedness of this suggestion.
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You know, whatever you're typing there was already discussed on this thread (as Mzyxptlk points out, by him and myself). Fundamentally, the decisive parameter we can use to adjust the ease of defending is the ship stats. It's what, 300 cells, 400 cells? Consider it a tiny parameter table, working it out so that attacking is well easier than defending isn't really nuclear science.
It's not really a question of how difficult it is to defend, since this is strongly influenced by a parameter that is easy to adjust: it's really a question of players being able to participate in the action itself, preferably without adjusting their bio for it. The game would be more enjoyable and possibly more attractive if (new too) people would have easier time participating. We can then adjust a simple parameter table to obtain an acceptable ratio of attack-defense.
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24 Jul 2011, 20:01
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#130
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Finally retired
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 788
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
it's really a question of players being able to participate in the action itself
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Agreed, that is the most important question for this game. Subsequent question however is, how can you do so without damaging the current game, and more importantly the current community (for economical reasons, new players are less inclined to pay for a game than existing players).
__________________
don't be an arse, join [TiT]
In the absence of the good old TiT alliance, look me up in VGN
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24 Jul 2011, 20:20
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#131
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General (Adjective Army)
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Yorkshire, England.
Posts: 825
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA
Most active/hardcore, whatever you wish to call them, players receive pre launch def.. or it least I used to when I played and at the time quite a few others do as well.. We could easily drift off the inital point/s here so I will move on.
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I never see prelaunched defence against my attacks - mind you, that's probably because I'm one of those players who very rarely prelaunches his attacks. ![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif) Prelaunching defence is usually a waste of ships anyway unless you can be certain of the launch tick for the attack.
As for the rest of the points - I think we're starting to see the beginnings of a meaningful discussion.
__________________
Amnion (aka The Arcane Chas of Arcania) - Playing PA under those and other pseudonyms every genuine round since Round 2. Most recently (and insignificantly):
Onset of Apathy R94 | Stacks of Resources R95 | The Necromancer of Dol Guldur R96
70 Years of Queen Elizabeth R97 | Worst of The Worst R98
Knights of the Green Shield R99 | Look Out of The Window R100 | Most of All R102
Hard of Hearing (2:7:1) R103 | The Lateness of Your Application (1:6:6) R104 | Kinnison of Tellus (5:1:2) R105
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24 Jul 2011, 21:21
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#132
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence
Agreed, that is the most important question for this game. Subsequent question however is, how can you do so without damaging the current game, and more importantly the current community (for economical reasons, new players are less inclined to pay for a game than existing players).
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Sometimes you're going to have to take a few collateral.
I don't personally have data on how many really active players the game has, but the estimates people have blown on this thread seem to vary from 300 to 500 to even 1000. It's hard to say. If people claim they hold a top200 planet without breaking a sweat and play it an hour a day, it'd be difficult to convince that there's more than 300 really actives. The amount of 'alliances' and their member volumes could possibly back up this estimate.
Expect to lose half of these 300 dedicated people and it's a crack in the nut. As mentioned before, it's a matter of taking the risk: are the administrative staff willing to try the means that have been proven useless year after year (see: slowly but steadily declining) in order to maintain some if slim profits on the short term, or are they willing to go for something on medium to long term, even if it means forgetting this whole 'we have to please the 300 really active players we have' (incidentally, the loudest of whom don't even seem that 'old' actives) rhetoric and stepping up with it.
Communities over-react to changes. Short term shocks are always ten points more more above. Trends however tend to be stationary. It's nothing surprising that the people willing to lay hours and hours to a game (which probably makes the game their 'social environment', the 'something that makes for a lot of their life') are terrified by an idea of radical change.
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24 Jul 2011, 22:20
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#133
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Finally retired
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 788
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Re: Nighttime protection
agreed, communities tend to be protective of their way of doing things. Doesn't mean all changes are good tho. I personally feel a full lockdown during sleep/peak hours is too radical. And there are better alternatives available to discourage being attacked during sleep/peak hours, or encourage being defended/defending during that time. Alternatives that fit more into the nature of the game.
__________________
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24 Jul 2011, 22:24
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#134
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Old Skool
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 278
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Re: Nighttime protection
Well I still belive the problem at hand being the fact that PA now has become so small that the playerbase consists of many players from aus/US % wise. So we really can´t alter the night cycle of the game without affecting those people significantly.
The obvious solution however would be to "europetize" the game, and on sight develop servers for say 4-5 set timezones - However -
That leaves us with several issues
1. the game can´t cope with such a split with it´s current playerbase - solution - serious advertizing and relancing needed (jagex ???) for a much needed increase in member base
2. This game is by internet standards "an old lady" so are the ties/freindships/connections made across timezones and continents - many would frown upon the fact that different servers would split old aquaintances.
I don´t see any solution to the night cycle alteration apart from the above mentioned. So where does this leave us?
1. should PA Relance the concept - for continent standards with a nighttime cycle - as most browser games are using with succes atm - games earlier mentioned and games like heroes of might and magic - kingdoms - and basically only allow continent specific IP´s to different servers.
2. Keep 1 server only and differentiate nighttime cycle to people´s location - i.e having different cycle settings for each planet set in preferences dependant on your timezone.
3. Keep 1 server, and set "euro" standards for all, most likely loose some US/AUS players due to unfairness and unflexibility.
My - suggestion would prolly lean towards the 3rd option - with an option that once the "euro" server wins merit and gains in playerbase (yea I still belive the essence of PA being something you can sell to the average joe sitting behind his PC) Jagex/PA team could publish a US server, and AUS. - In the end having the franchise spanning the world but sorted in timezones and sleep hours.
I do realize I used the word Jagex too much already and that this idea is a project not a next round solution - However it was a feeble attempt to bring this genuine thread back on topic.
Comments , thoughts, ideas?
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24 Jul 2011, 22:51
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#135
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence
Alternatives that fit more into the nature of the game.
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Of course. My limited perspective right now prevents me from having the ultimate inspiration, but one might be out there. A better idea is always a better idea. The key premise here, I believe, is the most important one, and that is moving the action from night and early morning to late noon and early evening so that people actually 'play' the game during it's 'period of interest'. Heavier solutions might enable it, perhaps something lighter might too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killeah
Well I still belive the problem at hand being the fact that PA now has become so small that the playerbase consists of many players from aus/US % wise. So we really can´t alter the night cycle of the game without affecting those people significantly.
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Curiosity question - how much of the players are from outside EU? Do you have a number for this?
The server approach is what some other games do (prominently so, World of Warcraft), but it'd require a big up in the player counts. Additionally, it might still sneak towards the 'pre-launch at night' -run which wouldn't be preferable. However, if the players were 100,000 two different time zone games might be plausible but it'd take a dramatic increase. After a dramatic increase has happened, it'd be perhaps harder seeing the benefits of such a split?
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24 Jul 2011, 23:07
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#136
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Old Skool
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 278
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Re: Nighttime protection
Indeed - i also wonder how many are non euro these days, I base my guess on my current alliance where as half (or close to) of the 60 members are non euro zone.
As for the increase - yea it would and should increase once the reformation of the game/nighttime has occured or preferably meanwhile, from experience such takes time - which is why the suggestion with 1 server placed in europe would be starting point.
as for the sneak towards prelaunch - yea true it most likely would, however the idea should ofc. be that no fleets can land between X time and X time - hence the hours of the night where those fleets initially would be launched - or atleast a significant cap decrease, say a 50 or 75% decrease.
As I naively posted in an earlier thread.
This is ofc. the entire idea of the split.
As for member base - well I honestly belive that 2k-3k euro players would bring plenty of action and fun to the game, frankly I think it´s fun atm with 1k (where as only 600 are active - estimate)
Ofc 100k wouldn´t hurt ![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif) - there´s no reason why one shouldn´t think big - ehh jagex :P
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25 Jul 2011, 01:47
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#137
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 47
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
This is just another way of looking at the exact same problem.
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No, adding restrictions to the game to compensate for poor game design decisions isn't the way to solve it. Promote attacking at other times, don't just punish players wanting to attack during the night.
A quick suggestion would be to speed up the game so it doesn't take a fleet between 16-20 hours to attack and return. All players attack at once because their attack fleets are often only usable once a day. If players and alliances can attack twice a day or more in groups then we might see more than just the single night time attack swarm.
If my fleets took just 8 hours to attack and return, then I could possibly do some daytime attacks fairly easily.
Another issue to look at would be the galaxy overview screen. Whilst it's been a feature since day 1 - is this actually helping the game these days or is it a hindrance? It's damn difficult to get a fleet through during the day as an increased number of players can report it for their galaxy to the players alliance. In the first few rounds with galaxies filled with useless players - chances are your galaxy wouldn't report anything, you'd be on your own.
Force players to login to see their incomings. Once they see them they can report it to their galaxy if they want to get help with it.
I know these aren't the best ideas, I'm sure someone else can come up with something better. However anything which makes daytime attacking more viable would be better than punishing night attacks.
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25 Jul 2011, 01:58
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#138
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Always MadcowS
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 439
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Re: Nighttime protection
Please all shut up and stop making suggestions!
As Tietäjä said everything has been discussed already! Get into old threads and necro them if you want to talk, but don't talk here as it might cause a heart attack at poor Tietäjä's chest.
Seriously dude. Go one step back and watch your posts please! You sound like an 80 years old frustrated lonely man who just loves to moan at everything.. I know days are long up there in Finnland but maybe you could just close the curtains and try to sleep - just a suggestion.
You know, lack of sleep leads to symptoms like increased aggressiveness and might harm your health.
__________________
[Flash][Madcows][Howling Rain][Vision][Osiris][horde][xVx]
And...
Relation Change Ascendancy and the Horde are now at war with each other.
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25 Jul 2011, 07:19
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#139
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil M
No, adding restrictions to the game to compensate for poor game design decisions isn't the way to solve it. Promote attacking at other times, don't just punish players wanting to attack during the night.
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You just did it again. "Punish players for attacking at night" is the exact same thing as "reward players for attacking during the day".
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not fundamentally opposed to doing the latter, it's just that I don't see a way of doing that without forcing arbitrary concepts of "night" and "day" upon people. On the other hand, night mode allows people to choose for themselves when they want to be protected and when not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil M
A quick suggestion would be to speed up the game so it doesn't take a fleet between 16-20 hours to attack and return. All players attack at once because their attack fleets are often only usable once a day. If players and alliances can attack twice a day or more in groups then we might see more than just the single night time attack swarm.
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Yeah. We'd see a night time attack swarm and a daytime one. So unlike the current situation, in which only Europeans have to worry about getting attacked while they're asleep, Americans and Australians would also have to worry about it. Great improvement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil M
If my fleets took just 8 hours to attack and return, then I could possibly do some daytime attacks fairly easily.
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Your fleet takes between 4 and 12 hours to get to a point at which you know if you can land or not. Seems to me you can already do this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil M
Another issue to look at would be the galaxy overview screen. Whilst it's been a feature since day 1 - is this actually helping the game these days or is it a hindrance?
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This is part of a different discussion (namely, the one about the value of galaxies, or lack thereof).
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 25 Jul 2011 at 07:29.
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25 Jul 2011, 09:13
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#140
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Old Skool
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 278
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Korsan
Please all shut up and stop making suggestions!
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No way Sir!! - This is infact one of the issues (so I belive) that hinders PA from growing (this and ofc. advertising).
people want to commit to a game but they also want to leave it at that and play at their own pace on a reasonable set of rules. I´m ready to admit that being succesful at this game (i.e haivng fun - roiding . and keeping your roids) requires too much of the average casual gamer out there - as stated in many posts now.
If you don´t like people shooting at your ideas - then just stop reading/posting here.
Don´t ruin this thread tho - since it´s actually adressing a goddamn valid issue!!
Edit: You can flame me, if you really have the need to "flash your piece", my shoulders can carry that weight too ![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif) - whatever makes you punch that alarm clock every morning.
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25 Jul 2011, 10:00
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#141
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Korsan
Please all shut up and stop making suggestions!
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Re-writing something that's been discussed on the very thread already without accounting that discussion is a really good sign of making one look like a douche more than you're making yourself look like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil M
Force players to login to see their incomings. Once they see them they can report it to their galaxy if they want to get help with it.
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Doing this without some kind of a solution to the sleep problem would escalate things?
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25 Jul 2011, 12:07
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#142
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Bolivian Alpaca
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 912
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA
The problem with this is the fact voluntary 6 hours protection would lead to people going into prot at random times whenever incommings are being prepared for their planet.. it would cause vast frustration to many PA players.
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You're sooo right. If only there was a way to set this preference only once in the first x ticks during protection.
Oh wait....
__________________
"I throw myself into the sea, release the wave, let it wash over me ..."
MadCowS - Angels - eXilition - Destiny - Wolfpack - Jenova - p3nguins
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25 Jul 2011, 12:21
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#143
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Finally retired
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 788
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
You're sooo right. If only there was a way to set this preference only once in the first x ticks during protection.
Oh wait.... ![Rolleyes](images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
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ace, but how about ppl who work in shifts, and thus have a biorhytm that isn't based on a 24h cycle?
__________________
don't be an arse, join [TiT]
In the absence of the good old TiT alliance, look me up in VGN
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25 Jul 2011, 12:26
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#144
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Bolivian Alpaca
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 912
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence
ace, but how about ppl who work in shifts, and thus have a biorhytm that isn't based on a 24h cycle?
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Valid point. I didn't realize this game was actually designed for people with unnormal biorythms. I take everything i said back!!
__________________
"I throw myself into the sea, release the wave, let it wash over me ..."
MadCowS - Angels - eXilition - Destiny - Wolfpack - Jenova - p3nguins
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25 Jul 2011, 13:16
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#145
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Bolivian Alpaca
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 912
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Re: Nighttime protection
While searching (unsuccessfully) for a reference as to when exactly pre-launch attacks were introduced, i stumbled upon this link, which provided a LOL moment: http://www.clawofdarkness.com/pawiki....php/Prelaunch
Btw, does anyone remember when PL attacks were introduced?
__________________
"I throw myself into the sea, release the wave, let it wash over me ..."
MadCowS - Angels - eXilition - Destiny - Wolfpack - Jenova - p3nguins
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25 Jul 2011, 14:33
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#146
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Nighttime protection
I'm pretty sure they were already added when I started playing back in round 15. I'm also pretty sure they were not present pre-PAX. That narrows it down, at least.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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25 Jul 2011, 17:58
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#147
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General (Adjective Army)
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Yorkshire, England.
Posts: 825
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Re: Nighttime protection
I seem to remember PL being one of the changes brought in with PAX. (My memory, along with many other things, isn't what it was).
__________________
Amnion (aka The Arcane Chas of Arcania) - Playing PA under those and other pseudonyms every genuine round since Round 2. Most recently (and insignificantly):
Onset of Apathy R94 | Stacks of Resources R95 | The Necromancer of Dol Guldur R96
70 Years of Queen Elizabeth R97 | Worst of The Worst R98
Knights of the Green Shield R99 | Look Out of The Window R100 | Most of All R102
Hard of Hearing (2:7:1) R103 | The Lateness of Your Application (1:6:6) R104 | Kinnison of Tellus (5:1:2) R105
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25 Jul 2011, 18:05
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#148
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas
I seem to remember PL being one of the changes brought in with PAX. (My memory, along with many other things, isn't what it was). ![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
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I think you're correct.
I can vaguely remember it not being very long early on though e.g. that you couldn't set a pre-launch to next October like you can now.
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25 Jul 2011, 18:33
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#149
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So what?
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Scotland
Posts: 606
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Re: Nighttime protection
The awful prelaunch was PAX, yeah. A quick search seems to show it was +11 back then as well, although for some reason I seem to recall defence being far more limited at that stage.
__________________
Legion
[RaH] [Mercenaries]
Last edited by Shev; 25 Jul 2011 at 23:56.
Reason: Fixed link failure.
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25 Jul 2011, 18:46
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#150
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Nighttime protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gzambo
the issue of havin ppl around at peak def times has been around a long time , if alliances are prepared to release target co-ords early then they pay the price for not having ppl online at the peak def times to be honest its an issue of balance for the smaller less hardcore alliances, get the gals fully covered for the attack and lose a cpl of def fleets in return
why those players from the more hardcore alliances are giving out asbout it baffles me as they are used to gettign up at unsocial hrs to launch attacks , counters and send def so wat has changed for them unless they aint used to getting ppl launching at them at these offpeak times
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Curious stuff. 2003.
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