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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 13:43   #1
Ste
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Immigrant Workers

I just watched a report on the politics show about Polish workers coming to work in the UK and Ireland.
Since the expansion of the EU allowing freedom of movement from Eastern Europe there has been a massive amount of people coming to work here.

On an anecdotal level I've seen it myself - the people building the house next door are all bulgarian or something, they certainly can't speak english. 3 of our current engineers are foreign - Australian, Kiwi and Greek. More and more of the subcontractors we are using have workers who have come from abroad.

This article about Dublin points out some of the positives and negatives - work is being carried out quickly and cheaply which is expanding the city, but then companies are looking at sacking their workers and employing cheap Latvian alternatives.

The example of Tesco in the UK was given - British workers were denied overtime over christmas so that agency (polish) workers could do it instead at a cheaper cost.

There are a number of problems here that I see.
There is a massive shortage of plumbers, electricians, builders etc.
My company has a lot of vacancies that we can't seem to fill. Our subcontractors can't take on more work because their aren't enough people on the market to employ. So costs are rising.
In London this will become an incredible problem once building for the Olympics gets underway.

So the workers have to come from somewhere. As unemployment is relatively high and wages relatively low in Poland etc it makes sense to move here for work when there is a demand for employees.
Then companies naturally, in a capitalist state, see a way to lower costs and employ cheap labour over the more expensive British alternative. So the British working class suffer.
The Poles coming here are frustrated that they're being offered significantly less to work than the British counterparts that they're working with, coupled with poor living conditions and less job security.
So there is no equality.

It seems that the only winner in all this is the big companies who greaten their profits (as always )

Anyway, Discuss.
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 16:53   #2
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Re: Immigrant Workers

This is why they were so keen on taking in the east-european countires, Ste. We have got the same problem in Norway. It is certainly keeping the cost down. Problem is, that when the wages are not rising, there will be less demand. So that the next crisis will come sooner.
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 17:06   #3
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Re: Immigrant Workers

at least now they have a job, im not seeing that the companies are right, but the big companies always find a way to win over other people
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 20:48   #4
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Re: Immigrant Workers

prices are rising but wages aren't. That's a problem
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 21:06   #5
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Re: Immigrant Workers

Who is going to buy the goods then, Kura?
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Unread 5 Feb 2006, 21:32   #6
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Re: Immigrant Workers

I've just lost my job.
In Dell I was one of 4 Irish people on our 70 strong manufacturing line. Most others were Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian and Polish.
Of the entire 4000 people who work in the factory, 50% are Polish, 20% are Estonian/Latvian/Lithuanian and the rest are made up of Irish and various other nationalities.
While there are times when there are plenty of jobs in the facility, most are on temporary short term contracts that pay minimum wage.
Which means the employer can do as they wish with employees without worrying about workers rights.

They expolit the system tremendously. The forgien workers take the jobs through agencies and have to put up with the shit to retain their jobs.
If they rock the boat, they're left go. So are we Irish. However we've less distance to travel home if we get laid off.

So many many companies are doing the same here. Hiring cheap labour (as they refuse to pay more), raking in profit, threatening everyone about layoffs if workers rights are enforced or more pay is demanded, and generally using scare tactics to get richer.

Of Dell's manufacturing line (1 of 15) we would make €25,000 worth of computers an hour. They'd pay us collectively €650. Even with other overheads, shipping and so on that's still a massive profit.
They are raking in money faster than expected according to their business reports we get to see.
Yet they still act in this way.

It's getting rediculous. And the problem is it's not the Eastern European workers fault.
So they start getting blamed by locals. They get defensive and the whole things starts to stink.

Though the Polish are causing problems here as they do not mix with others, keep to themselves, send their money home, buy very little, drink in their own places and then proceed to fight with each other constantly at night.

Though there is an increasing trend that is happening in some businesses, such as construction. The Polish workers go for a job interview, ask how much they are willing to pay an hour, then undercut the figure themselves in order to get the job ahead of any other candidates.

It can only happen in a company that isn't 100% regulated but it's an emerging problem.

This whole thing is just an example of how employers never miss a trick when it comes to making more money and doing it just about within the law.

It's ****ing annoying.
And I have to play their game now and submit to this shit if I want to get a job.
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Unread 6 Feb 2006, 00:32   #7
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Re: Immigrant Workers

I've had a very different experience. For a town the size of mine there is quite a high number of Polish people working and living here. This rises dramatically in summer months when the tourists start flooding in.

The restaurant I work in employs 1 Polish girl at the moment out of 4 full time staff. Last summer we had 5 Poles out of about 17 full time staff. Last summer we employed several locals. Only 3 of them lasted the season, and of those 2 had worked for us on a seasonal or part time basis since they were at high school. The reason they didn't last was that that they were unreliable, often missing shifts without good reason, they were in general poor timekeepers and one of them was caught stealing from the till. (To be honest, all the locals who are honest reliable and are good workers already have full time jobs and aren't looking for seasonal positions). The flip side is the poles. Not one of them missed a shift all summer, they were always punctual, always well turned out and always worked hard. They were paid exactly the same as everyone else.

Everyone has different experiences but mine has certainly been good. They wanted to socialise with us as well, which was good, although they were very careful with their money. Obviously that is why they were here and I understand that, they were all students so wanted to save as much as possible. It's actually just a culture thing as they would all go into the pub and buy their drinks individually, whereas the idea of being in company and not offering someone else a drink or having some kind of rounds system is totally alien to me and I would feel embarassed to stand and buy my own drinks all night. Blah.


I've not heard of any local builders using Poles, most of them work in tourism, but then that's the main business here in the summer months. Given that fact, most of them will be earning minimum wage I imagine, so companies couldn't pay them less anyway.
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Unread 6 Feb 2006, 00:52   #8
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Re: Immigrant Workers

Time for a little Devil's advocacy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
My company has a lot of vacancies that we can't seem to fill. Our subcontractors can't take on more work because their aren't enough people on the market to employ. So costs are rising.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
Then companies naturally, in a capitalist state, see a way to lower costs and employ cheap labour over the more expensive British alternative. So the British working class suffer.
Surely these two can't both be true? If there's nobody willing to do the work in Britain, who suffers when immigrants come to do it? In fact, the immigrants wouldn't come unless there was work to be done. Whilst here, they pay taxes and thus contribute to the state coffers, which benefits British people as a whole.

The immigrant workers get jobs that they're obviously happy to do, or they wouldn't have travelled hundreds of miles to a foreign country to do them. British companies get labour at a good price and thus perform well, creating further wealth to be invested in productive activities. And the British government gets to tax the whole thing, so they're not complaining.

The British workers get to do jobs that involve sitting in air-conditioned offices drinking coffee, instead of toiling on building sites - and if they wanted to toil on a building site then they would have taken the vacancies offered to begin with.
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Unread 6 Feb 2006, 01:10   #9
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Re: Immigrant Workers

the is a factory nea me (company by the name of EBAC, you may have heard of them, they produce dehumidifiers) who are so shit that it got to the point that not only will the local job centre not carry job adverts for them anymore, but to get any local workers they were having to pay silly wages, this was no ones fault but their own, as they have incredibly dubious business practices (ask someone who works for the job centre how hard it is to get blaklisted by them and you will see what i mean)
They are paying to import polish and czech workers, then paying them minimum wage, knowing that they can't afford to do anything else, and cant get another job, due to the fact that 90% of them can't even speak english. That, to me, is milking the system, and should be stopped.
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Unread 6 Feb 2006, 01:12   #10
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Re: Immigrant Workers

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
The British workers get to do jobs that involve sitting in air-conditioned offices drinking coffee, instead of toiling on building sites - and if they wanted to toil on a building site then they would have taken the vacancies offered to begin with.
Perhaps if wages / conditions were better than they might. The overall point is that wages are kept "artificially" low by continually adding workers to the pool of labour. The main problem isn't "British people don't want those jobs", it's that British people who have those skills don't want those jobs at those wage levels. If we were dealing with this in a market system, wages would rise until these jobs were filled. Almost any vacancy can be filled once wages are high enough (well, for semi/unskilled workers at least) - I would certainly work on a building site if I was paid enough.

It seems to me that we have to adjust our cost models for certain enterprises. Things cost money, and although adjustment might be annoying, we might have to get used to paying a fair price for things, rather than relying on immigrant labour subsidising low prices.

Complaints about immigrants seem to miss the point somewhat though. The "average" unit cost for a skilled plumber internationally might be £2 per hour (once you factor in the plumbers who work in India, China, etc). Surely the whole point of globalisation was that it fostered international competetion? Why wouldn't wages (in the long term) be dragged down to this average point (obviously they'd have different cost of living, but presuming that levels out too)? Historically European and North American workers have been insulated from this competetion by labour market regulation, distance, language barriers, immigration policy, etc. This is all becoming less and less true so I guess Europeans are going to have to get used to losing their historic "privelege" in this area.

Or we could move forward to a more rational system of international development, but I doubt that'll happen any time soon.
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Unread 8 Feb 2006, 18:16   #11
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Re: Immigrant Workers

Headline: EU says eastern workers are good

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4691650.stm

The EU commision are ofcourse very happy about this, as it lowers the cost of labour...
And the filthy capitalists too.
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Unread 8 Feb 2006, 19:14   #12
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Re: Immigrant Workers

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Who is going to buy the goods then, Kura?
Theres always the employees, who still have to eat.

As long as theres a supply and a demand, theres money enough for both parties. Although obviously a lot more goes to the person supplying than the person demanding.
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Unread 8 Feb 2006, 19:17   #13
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Re: Immigrant Workers

Theres no divine right to have a job. If you cant compete in the market with semi-educated immigrants, then maybe you should think about improving your skills.

Similarly if immigrants arent happy with whats on offer here, perhaps they should stay in their own countries.
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Unread 8 Feb 2006, 19:22   #14
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Re: Immigrant Workers

Its not like this is new practice.

I spent 2 years working for various electonics firms within Central Scotland. The practice was

1. Hire a temp through an Agency. If you own the agency themselves, even more profit.
2. Give temp a minimum wage (or just above) contract but promise them that its a 3 month contract and if theyre good enough, theyll get a full time contract with all the benefits that brings.
3. After 11 weeks, bring ALL the temps in at once. Advise that the volume of work has lowered and theyre all being laid off. Apologise for this wholeheartedly and say that the Agency has promised to work their arses off to get you a new post.
4. Have said agency phone the temps 7 days later, offering them a new, fixed term contract (3 months) at the same/almost identical location doing the same job.

Repeat Ad Infinitum.

This process is best used in areas with large levels of unemployment. Eventually, the agency will recognise which candidates have twigged to their methods (the ones that stop returning their calls) and which ones are gullible fools (you can only fool them once or twice at the same factory, so move them around factories, and then blame the companies that theyre working for, cos its not the agencies fault).

And Incubus, you can bet your ass that Dell did not directly employ you, itll be a sub-company under the Dell umbrella, as thats great for saving money on National Insurance (if the agency charges £10 an hour for a temp and you get £5 an hour as a temp, the agency get £5 an hour, which , as its probably owned by Dell or a subsidiary, means the money never leaves the company).

Hence why it would require someone threatening my family at gunpoint to get me to even consider a manufacturing position again.
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Unread 8 Feb 2006, 19:50   #15
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Re: Immigrant Workers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Theres always the employees, who still have to eat.

As long as theres a supply and a demand, theres money enough for both parties. Although obviously a lot more goes to the person supplying than the person demanding.
Who still have to eat. Well, Im afraid that under capitalism such questions are worth shit. If you dont eat, if you die, who cares? Demand is not about what people need (it should be, but capitalism is rather twisted), but what people can buy.

Lack of demand is capitalism eternal problem. Hiring in people from eastern-europe for 2 euros an hour isnt creating a lot of demand, is it.
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Unread 8 Feb 2006, 19:59   #16
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Re: Immigrant Workers

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
If you dont eat, if you die, who cares?
Not me anyway.


Quote:
Demand is not about what people need (it should be, but capitalism is rather twisted), but what people can buy.
.
If the company had to pay more wages, then they could afford to hire better workers so these skillless people probably wouldnt be eating anyway. Generally speaking, people dont earn minimum wage unless they either have special circumstances (immigrant, student, temporary, whatever) or are shit.
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Unread 8 Feb 2006, 20:15   #17
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Re: Immigrant Workers

People from Eastern Europe aren't necessarily skill-less or uneducated. The standard of education in parts of Eastern Europe was up until recently probably better than in parts of Western Europe. To take an extreme example compare foriegn language skills amongst UK students to somewhere like Slovakia.
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Unread 8 Feb 2006, 20:17   #18
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Re: Immigrant Workers

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
People from Eastern Europe aren't necessarily skill-less or uneducated. The standard of education in parts of Eastern Europe was up until recently probably better than in parts of Western Europe. To take an extreme example compare foriegn language skills amongst UK students to somewhere like Slovakia.
I can really see the importance of speaking czech, slovakian, german and hungarian in the UK market at the minute.
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Unread 8 Feb 2006, 20:19   #19
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Re: Immigrant Workers

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I can really see the importance of speaking czech, slovakian, german and hungarian in the UK market at the minute.
The Slovakian's I have met have generally spoken either French, Italian or Russian in addition to the languages you mention. And yeah German is probably quite useful, I see a fair few jobs advertised in London where German is listed as an advantage / pre-requisite. Since it's the largest economy in Europe this is probably unsurprising.
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Unread 8 Feb 2006, 20:44   #20
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Re: Immigrant Workers

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
The Slovakian's I have met have generally spoken either French, Italian or Russian in addition to the languages you mention. And yeah German is probably quite useful, I see a fair few jobs advertised in London where German is listed as an advantage / pre-requisite. Since it's the largest economy in Europe this is probably unsurprising.
Let me rephrase in a non-sarcastic fashion. Unless you have certain other educational accomplishments and abilities speaking foreign languages in the UK is going to be moderately pointless. It's far more of a supplemental ability.
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Unread 9 Feb 2006, 00:45   #21
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Re: Immigrant Workers

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Demand is not about what people need
Wait, I surely didnt just read that.

Not even with the concept of communism so firmly engrained in your skull that you believe Communism to be the cure to all societies woes could you possibly believe that Demand is not generated because people need something.

Oil?
Rice?
Water?

You need these. People control and supply them and make vast amounts of money doing it. Thats where Capitalism started and its still whats at the core of capitalism. Yes, its evolved to the point where demand is generated for items which are not needed, but thats not remotely relevant to the point.
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Unread 9 Feb 2006, 00:49   #22
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Re: Immigrant Workers

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Originally Posted by Kurashima
Wait, I surely didnt just read that.
He's talking about economics. In the study of (classical) economics "demand" is not what about people need (or even want). It's about what people can afford to buy.

So, if you raise the price of food, in economic terms the "demand" falls. Which is of course nonsense in real terms - demand would actually be the same. So usually demand refers to "demand at that price".
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Unread 9 Feb 2006, 00:50   #23
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Re: Immigrant Workers

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Let me rephrase in a non-sarcastic fashion. Unless you have certain other educational accomplishments and abilities speaking foreign languages in the UK is going to be moderately pointless. It's far more of a supplemental ability.
Yes, but it's not like that's their only skill. Their basic numeracy is probably on-par / superior to many English workers.
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