Gay Marriage

[Zorro]

Originally Posted by Yahwe

i suppose that if i were to step in now and spoil all your fun then i should be overcome with such a wave of nostalgia from my childhood that i would blush to my roots....


marriage is not a contract.
contracts exist in all jurisdictions (what you might call a country; an area of land which is govened by a legal system) and few restrict them.
thus a contract between two men saying that they will both buy a one bedroom flat and live in it together and that upon one of them deciding to leave for someone else the other should get the whole flat, is binding in law.
as a contract.
a marriage is a word invented by some religious groups.
religious laws are not laws.
religions are not legally binding.
some laws include the word 'marriage'. to describe contractrual (relationships considered a contract) relationships when in fact there was never actually a written contract (just cake and a white dress).
that's just laziness.

there is no need for gay men to be allowed to marry in the US or anywhere.
there is no need for straight people to be allowed to marry each other in the US or anywhere.

people bind themselves to each other by what they frequently call promises.
promises are not legally binding.

marriage is a promise.

all that matters is how assets (property or things) are divided when the promise breaks down.

the courts decide this.

the US courts and the courts of all western countries (perhaps others too but i can not promise because i do not no) make the decision by looking into the relationship between the parties.
that means what actually happened.

so. gay marriage.

should any christian church accept and endorse gay marriage?
there are two answers:
1) it doesn't matter because the law doesn't care.
2) there is no reason for citizens who are governed by law to give two hoots.


xxx

Don't use that nick. It brings back bad memories.

[Ste]

I was going to write something about the whole marriage thing being pointless but Yahwe beat me to it.
If you're worried about what happens with your stuff after you die, make a will.
If you're a gay couple and want those special governmental benefits - find a lesbian couple and marry one each. Everyone wins.

Anyway - is this the real Yahwe?

[roadrunner_0]

hopefully not, i was hoping that someone would have got around to killing yahwe by now

[SYMM]

Originally Posted by Yahwe

lots of things

When you get married in the UK you sign something after speaking the vows...

[HobbieRogue4]

Originally Posted by Yahwe

should any christian church accept and endorse gay marriage?

Why would it? We could open the debate of "re-writing the Bible" of course...

You're missing the point of the person who votes = enacts legislation.

If one, or the "majority" are influenced by their religion when making legislative decisions then talk of contracts, etc. are irrelevant for the time being.

[*donkie*]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

The entire concept on which the USA is based is that people have inalienable rights based on the ideals of life, liberty and the pursuit if happiness. If you wish to live under the tyranny of the majority go ahead but please do not still pretend you live in the land of the free.

Phwoar.
I love you.
Can we get married?

[Sunday8pm]

I just find it incredibly ridiculous that Homosexuals would want the right to something that is in itself religious based.

I think they are just purely standing on toes with their stance atm.

For instance Handfasting(Pagan ritual) is now legally recognised as a method of marriage(in the UK), maybe they can have a hiding the sausage(gay ritual) as a legally recognised method of marrying.

I think the biggest problem is all the homosexual plonkers who want to do it in a church and steal all the traditions of christian marriage, a religion that denoucnes the practice of homosexuality, it just seems utterly ridiculous, perhaps if they could just create some new religious body that allows it and then apply for legal recognition of a certain ceremony being a binding contract.

Much simpler, pisses off less zealots and moves on with things.

Seriously think smart.

[*donkie*]

So you're saying its wrong for someone to believe in the Christian God, following the Bible(which itself is massively contradictory and open to interpretation), and be in a stable, loving homosexual marriage which you want God to recognise?

Marriage is just asking God to recognise your union. And from what I know about God from the Bible - omniescent, omnipotent and benevolent you'd think he'd be a friendly guy. Heck, he does a shit-load of forgiving, so you'd expect him to let people show their love for each other. Any God that didn't would be pretty harsh and I sure as hell wouldn't believe in him.

[Sunday8pm]

Heh what next?

Arguing for people who want to be hindu but can't resist a good bit of steak to be allowed to become Hindu and eat 7 steaks a week?

Arguing for Jewish people who want to eat pork day in day out?

Seriously why aspire to a religion that does not condone your lifestyle?

I mean in the first place aspiring to a religion is immensely stupid in my mind, it's double stupid to try and get in one that does not suit your lifestyle.

[*donkie*]

I see your point, and I think religion is equally stupid - the difference is that the Bible is open to interpretation, and there is enough written in it that equates to being accepting, especially in the new testament. However, Judaism (and the Kosher laws) are not up to interpretation - they are a strict ontology, like the hindu "don't kill cows". Christianity is based on the New Testament (anyone who claims to be Christian and goes around quoting the Old Testament should be shot. Repeatedly.) and, the new testament is extremely forgiving and accepting.

Just because some evangelical twat can quote Leviticus 18:something-something repeatedly dosn't mean that the religion dosn't fully condone it.

Plus, it depends on the extremity of the religion you've joined. If you decide to jump in at the deep end and go for the full mid-west "holy shit! a gay! run for your lives! if you look at him you will burn for eternity in the deepest pit of hell!" then it's your own ****ing fault. If however, you join a moderate, open wing of the Christian community then there shouldn't be a problem.

[Phang]

Originally Posted by Sunday8pm

Seriously why aspire to a religion that does not condone your lifestyle?

Sunday8pm: "Constantly striving towards greater levels of idiocy than ever before."

[SYMM]

As an example, Unitarians (the English branch anyway, the American lot are I believe more devout) consider themselves to be "Free Christian", and don't condone Homosexuality in any way. The minister at the church I used to go to was openly gay, and he never had a problem with being part of the religion, so to say that someone shouldn't be Christian because of something that some christians believe in is at best short-sighted and at worse downright stupid.

[Boogster]

Originally Posted by SYMM

As an example, Unitarians (the English branch anyway, the American lot are I believe more devout) consider themselves to be "Free Christian", and don't condone Homosexuality in any way. The minister at the church I used to go to was openly gay, and he never had a problem with being part of the religion, so to say that someone shouldn't be Christian because of something that some christians believe in is at best short-sighted and at worse downright stupid.

Any Christian that tolerates homosexuality as something that God wants should, frankly, reconsider their faith.

[Boogster]

Originally Posted by *donkie*

So you're saying its wrong for someone to believe in the Christian God, following the Bible(which itself is massively contradictory and open to interpretation), and be in a stable, loving homosexual marriage which you want God to recognise?

Marriage is just asking God to recognise your union. And from what I know about God from the Bible - omniescent, omnipotent and benevolent you'd think he'd be a friendly guy. Heck, he does a shit-load of forgiving, so you'd expect him to let people show their love for each other. Any God that didn't would be pretty harsh and I sure as hell wouldn't believe in him.

The Christian God may be benevolent, but He is also just and holy. He may be forgiving, but that does not mean He takes pleasure in sin.

[SYMM]

Originally Posted by Boogster

Any Christian that tolerates homosexuality as something that God wants should, frankly, reconsider their faith.

How about as "something that God doesn't mind"?
And who the **** are you to tell me (or anyone) what faith they're allowed to follow?

[mist]

odds are he'd be a christian.

-mist

[Boogster]

Originally Posted by SYMM

How about as "something that God doesn't mind"?
And who the **** are you to tell me (or anyone) what faith they're allowed to follow?

It is either right or wrong. To simplify anything as 'something that God doesn't mind' is missing the point.

I did not tell you (or anyone) what faith they're allowed to follow. Please read/think more carefully.

[mist]

i think you'll find it's right or wrong in your opinion i find the fact that you feel you can speak for god quite ammusing.

that asside, you sound awfully like how i'd imagine someone from the crusades

-mist

[Sunday8pm]

This thread got a lot better since I went out.

I personally think I make a great point about the way they are going about this is as rational as trying to allow rednecks who live on Growth Hormone injected steak to become hindu's and keep their eating habits.

I mean... seriously...

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Boogster

The Christian God may be benevolent, but He is also just and holy. He may be forgiving, but that does not mean He takes pleasure in sin.

I know you might find this outrageous, but I doubt that gay Christians see their actions as sinful.

Besides, I'm not really sure where this is coming form. The issue is not just about gays who want to get "steal Christian traditions" as Sunday put it. There are homosexuals who might want to get married in a registry office for example. If we're saying gays can't get married for the reasons given, can't we apply this logic to atheists / wiccans / pagans / Buddhists / etc.

[SYMM]

Originally Posted by mist

odds are he'd be a christian.

-mist

So now you're saying that he's a better Christian than me?
Catholicism may prescribe that homosexuality is wrong (and other christian denominations too perhaps...) but it doesn't mean that all denominations do.

[Sunday8pm]

They kinda do, Wiccans aren't allowed to perform a marriage under their tradition... they have to go to a registry office or do it by other recognised means at least in some countries still.

I'm all for Gay people being permitted to marry in a registry office and I don't see why that should be blocked, it's the twats that want it recognised by god and keep getting vocal about it that is holding everyone back, as soon as the bible bashers can see they are disassociating themselves from religion then there will be likely less fuss.

[Ste]

How many times in the bible does it actually say Homosexuality is sinful?

[Sunday8pm]

once, in one edition, can't mind which, but it also sticks homo's in the same bracket as those who pierce or tattoo their body.

Yes hypocritical isn't it and highly amusing.

[Ste]

So again - Why is it sinful to be Christian AND gay?

[JonnyBGood]

What I was arguing against was prefential treatment for heterosexual married couples as opposed to "similar" homosexual couples. According to the ever-helpful-yahwe the preferential tax breaks are likely to be struck down in the US courts. So yay!

Originally Posted by Boogster

It is either right or wrong. To simplify anything as 'something that God doesn't mind' is missing the point.

I'm sure god really cares what colour pants you're wearing. There's nothing really essential about being gay that's in opposition to the two commandments of the New Testament, love thy god and love thy neighbour.

[Sunday8pm]

Originally Posted by Ste

So again - Why is it sinful to be Christian AND gay?

Hey, don't ask me to stand up for christianity... I just think it's mightily stupid to try and gain acceptance with a group that doesn't want you and won't condone you at the cost of the acceptance of the relationship and the contracts that come with it that you want to enjoy with your partner.

I mean I personally think that Gay parade's are as offensive as Orange Marches.

[Ste]

It all depends on the type of christian:
Conservative Christians and Liberal Christians.
They both interpret the bible in different ways on a number of issues not just homosexuality. Unfortunately the conservative christians are the most outspoken.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibx.htm

Interesting link.

I really do find it interesting that a lot of people are saying that Christianity as a religion says homosexuality is sinful when they have never read the bible, or if they have, seriously misunderstand the history of it.

English versions of the Bible are translations from the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts. The wording has been filtered through the mind-set and prejudices of various sets of translators. They feel that one must carefully examine the original texts from the point of view of ancient Israeli and early Christian societies in order to determine their precise meaning.
...
The original passages in the Hebrew Scriptures usually do not refer to homosexual acts in general, but to specific immoral behaviors, such as rape, ritual sex in Pagan temples, and prostitution.

[Sunday8pm]

I just think Homosexual activist groups have conducted themselves in the poorest ways in trying to get recognised.

Gay Parade's are comparitive to Orange Marches with regards to distaste.

Trying to force the goverment to interfere with religion.

Trying to force the goverment to interfere with Education.

I mean if you are going to argue for homosexuality to be taught to children of an impressionable age, might as well through in required creationism reading.

If you are wanting to force the goverment to have the churches recognise a gay wedding then you might as well make sure they are recognised under every other law including all taxes.

If you are going to choose to show off your affiliation (be it sexually or religiously) then you should be expected to be treated with the same derision should you march through someone's main street where it's outspoken presence wouldn't be welcomed just as the Orange marchers are.

[Phang]

Originally Posted by Sunday8pm

I just think Homosexual activist groups have conducted themselves in the poorest ways in trying to get recognised.

Gay Parade's are comparitive to Orange Marches with regards to distaste.

Trying to force the goverment to interfere with religion.

Trying to force the goverment to interfere with Education.

I mean if you are going to argue for homosexuality to be taught to children of an impressionable age, might as well through in required creationism reading.

If you are wanting to force the goverment to have the churches recognise a gay wedding then you might as well make sure they are recognised under every other law including all taxes.

If you are going to choose to show off your affiliation (be it sexually or religiously) then you should be expected to be treated with the same derision should you march through someone's main street where it's outspoken presence wouldn't be welcomed just as the Orange marchers are.

you know, i thought 'hmm, sunday's posting on a thread about gay marriage. canada has gay marriage, and sunday wants to marry canada, so sunday will be in favour of it.'

But no, you're just being you.

[mist]

Originally Posted by SYMM

So now you're saying that he's a better Christian than me?

no, not at all.

there are a lot of denominations of chrisitanity, each with different views on certain issues. at the one extreme there are those who'd like to burn gay people at the steak, who'd like to ban abortion, who'd like to require us all in church on a daily basis. at the other end there are those who're more accepting, and seem to believe that god's actually a 'nice guy', and therefore perhaps they should endevour to be. you can probably tell where abouts my preferences lie.

you may have noticed that those of the more close minded veriety are generally more vocal, and will try and 'convert' people or 'save them from sin'. they seem to see it as their duty to keep an eye on those of us who may be less devout than them. they also seem to think that the law should reflect their relligious views, basically that god should be forced upon people. imo, this is wrong - both moraly and biblically - but it does tend to get them noticed

when i suggested that he was being christian, i should have said Christian, and could equally have said 'close minded arsehole'.

for what it's worth, if you take people as you find them, and care about them rather than what some book says, which may or may not be right, then i think you're a much better person than whoever i origonally posted about, and therefore would have to put in significant effort to be a worse christian

-mist

[Burbank]

lets get back down to what it means:

the church and state were seperated, so the state cannot say what the church is to do.

and marriage is a jewish/christian/islam thing. it has everything to do with god and nothing to do with law.
so first off why would gay people want to be recognised by a god who seemingly hates their sexual choice? its all about power and NO law should be made on giving a community power over an independant institution.

also noones marriage should be recognised by law, but all civil unions should. so there. that is my 3 cents

[Deepflow]

marriage was around before god...

true story.

so this whole argument is completely pointless and just another example of the church getting above its station.

[Embroglio]

Originally Posted by SYMM

So now you're saying that he's a better Christian than me?

jesus has nothing on you

[Burbank]

god has been around since the begining of humanity

humans have always believed in a god of some description
and also the gay community want it recognised in a christian church. and any priest who says yes is no christian.

i am not saying that christianity is the best thing on the planet, im merely saying that christianity has its rules and if you dont follow them you arent christian

[Deepflow]

how exactly do you know that humanity has always believed in god?

blah, rubbish.

ok, at the very least, marriage has been around longer than any religion that is currently still practising. The fact that christianity has hijacked marriage is the important thing here. It really should be a complete irrelevance.

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by Burbank

and also the gay community want it recognised in a christian church.

Errr, they do? Since when?

[SYMM]

i am not saying that christianity is the best thing on the planet, im merely saying that christianity has its rules and if you dont follow them you arent christian

That's bollocks. Some Catholics, and some protestants may believe that Homosexuality is wrong, but that is most definitely not to say that denominations of the religion aren't more tolerant/liberal. Do some research in Unitarianism and the idea of "Free Christian", and then come back and stop being a muppet.

[Burbank]

Originally Posted by Deepflow

how exactly do you know that humanity has always believed in god?

blah, rubbish.

ok, at the very least, marriage has been around longer than any religion that is currently still practising. The fact that christianity has hijacked marriage is the important thing here. It really should be a complete irrelevance.

just because the religion no longer exists it does not mean that humanity has not always believed in gods. The Nephilim (you might remember Marduk ) were gods in sumer mythology and people certainly believed in them back then, marriage also was a fixture back then. now on to christianity, christianity did not hijack anything, christianity is really just an offshoot of the jewish faith and abraham kept it when he married sarah. so just shut the hell up about things you dont understand.

gay couples want to be married which is a religious institution, it just isnt going to happen in any religion other than islam (which takes pity on true homosexuals). if they want to be joined in a civil union im all for that but marriage is not going to happen in any true church

you are all ganymedes

[roadrunner_0]

wow, we have a QDS for religious issues now?!?

[Burbank]

Qds?

[Deepflow]

Originally Posted by Burbank

just because the religion no longer exists it does not mean that humanity has not always believed in gods. The Nephilim (you might remember Marduk ) were gods in sumer mythology and people certainly believed in them back then, marriage also was a fixture back then. now on to christianity, christianity did not hijack anything, christianity is really just an offshoot of the jewish faith and abraham kept it when he married sarah. so just shut the hell up about things you dont understand.

gay couples want to be married which is a religious institution, it just isnt going to happen in any religion other than islam (which takes pity on true homosexuals). if they want to be joined in a civil union im all for that but marriage is not going to happen in any true church

you are all ganymedes

ok, considering we are talking about marriage as it relates to xianity, all that stuff at the beginning is pretty pointless.

and how exactly did xianity not hijack anything. If you knew youre history you would know that marriage really was completely separated from christianity in the early days. The pope just decided that he ought to bring the two together. If you really dont believe me feel free to check, but youll find out youre wrong if you do.

[Burbank]

no all of that begining bit was a counter to that persons point. and all you need to do is pick up your bible and turn to the old testament book of genesis and you would be rebuffed for that last statement, the torah explains indepth about the sanctity of marriage in gods eyes

[Deepflow]

ok, so are you saying that your argument works as long as we believe what the bible says?

can i tactfully withdraw at this point to go and speak to someone sane? Im talking about history, not what the BIBLE says, the most rewritten and revised book in history.

[Burbank]

im talking about the historical parts that have correlations in the torah you silly billy

[*donkie*]

You're all talking shit now.

[Boogster]

[Mass quote]

Originally Posted by mist

i think you'll find it's right or wrong in your opinion i find the fact that you feel you can speak for god quite ammusing.

that asside, you sound awfully like how i'd imagine someone from the crusades

-mist

Christians believe that God's views on right and wrong are set out in the Bible, which also describes God's character.
I am not speaking for God, but speaking of him.

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

I know you might find this outrageous, but I doubt that gay Christians see their actions as sinful.

Of course I don't find it outrageous. But what they believe, is not essentially what matters, in an objective sense. It is what God thinks.
Of course, by saying this, I do not claim myself to have understood God fully, far from it, but I think the Bible makes it's stance on this issue clear - and so do millions of other Christians.

Originally Posted by ste

How many times in the bible does it actually say Homosexuality is sinful?

Not sure of the count, but:

OT
Genesis 19: Story of Sodom and Gomorrah
Leviticus 19 v22: 'Do not practise homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

NT
1Corinthians 6 v9: 'Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshippers, adulterers... homosexuals... - none of these will have a share in the kingdom of God.'

I'm sure there are more. And before we go there, of course I am aware of the pro-homosexual Christian argument of cultural interpretation, I just simply believe it is wrong.

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I'm sure god really cares what colour pants you're wearing. There's nothing really essential about being gay that's in opposition to the two commandments of the New Testament, love thy god and love thy neighbour.

Well, although simplifying the New Testament as a tract on these two things only is somewhat unsound...
'Love thy God' is not a simply a command to send Him a valentine's day card every Febuary, but a command to honour and respect His character - to love the things that He loves, and vice versa.

[Boogster]

Originally Posted by Burbank

gay couples want to be married which is a religious institution, it just isnt going to happen in any religion other than islam (which takes pity on true homosexuals).

Excuse me?

[Burbank]

the people who say that they are practising muslims and then kill gay people are not muslims

in the quran there is a passage that says if a man has sex with another man then beat him so many times, but if he does it again take pity on him because he is sick.

i cant back that up with the part of the quran because my copy is in my town and i am not at the moment. so either look for yourself or take my word for it

[Ste]

Originally Posted by Burbank

and marriage is a jewish/christian/islam thing. it has everything to do with god and nothing to do with law.
so first off why would gay people want to be recognised by a god who seemingly hates their sexual choice?

'God' DOES NOT hate their sexual choice. See my post above. Read the bible. The bible has been wrongly interpreted by some as anti-homosexual when in fact it is not. Gay Christians want to get recognition of their partnership and the fact that the state won't let them because some people believe homosexuality is sinful, is wrong.