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Unread 14 Aug 2004, 15:12   #1
noah02
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Structure Killers

Sphinx, Basilisk, Trebuchet and Galleon. Can we get rid of them please because blowing up ppls structures (apart from amps and distorter) I think is the most evil part of this game, And seing as they mix with whatever ship is best to attack with (ie terran with destroyers and such)
These ships should be burned at the stake and deleted from the game or just used to target amps and distorters.
Noobs dont need this sort of thing when they starting up to have there first light factory's blown up by some jumped up player who likes to attack the lil guys (which 99% of ppl do unless they get there mates to tag onto a 3 on 1 system).

And to be honest covert ops covers the wave amp/distorter thing already.

EVIL PPL
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Written by Kloopy Wed Mar 16 22:06:43 2005

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Unread 14 Aug 2004, 15:14   #2
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Re: Structure Killers

And also it would be nice to have some income from something other than roids like refinerys that ppl cant touch.
Is not fair for a noob to have 5 roids and no refinerys coz they been abused.
Would be so much nicer to have an income still to build a little bit.
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Written by Kloopy Wed Mar 16 22:06:43 2005

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Unread 14 Aug 2004, 15:31   #3
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Re: Structure Killers

Structure killing ships are fine; they should just not be the same class ship as the pods.
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Unread 14 Aug 2004, 17:43   #4
noah02
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Re: Structure Killers

Well you would say that wouldnt you.
I am sure you get paid to disagree with ppl
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Written by Kloopy Wed Mar 16 22:06:43 2005

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Unread 14 Aug 2004, 18:15   #5
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Re: Structure Killers

no

he's just thought things through.

do you really think that people give a crap about killing a newbie's structures? do they gain anything from it? somehow, i can't see it. if the structure killers are, however, good ablaitive armour for pods, they'll be sent along and the building damage will be incidental

rather than getting rid of structure killers, how about deducting XP from people if they kill structures of planets that're smaller than them. that'd probably be a deterrant

-mist
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Unread 14 Aug 2004, 18:16   #6
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Re: Structure Killers

The only way to balance it is to make them the same class as pods... if not then some races will be lucky and get those structure killers in the same ship class as ships you are attacking with anyway. Only way to assure that all races have the same use of them is to make them the same class as pods.
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Unread 14 Aug 2004, 20:22   #7
noah02
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Re: Structure Killers

Or get rid of them
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Written by Kloopy Wed Mar 16 22:06:43 2005

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Unread 14 Aug 2004, 21:01   #8
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Re: Structure Killers

Im a bit surprised you havent mentioned covert ops.

At least when you get attacked with structure killers, the person responsible has the bottle to show it was them

But thats a different story
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Unread 14 Aug 2004, 21:11   #9
noah02
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Re: Structure Killers

i like covert ops we have a thread devoted to doing it to one person in particular hehe.
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Written by Kloopy Wed Mar 16 22:06:43 2005

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Unread 14 Aug 2004, 21:35   #10
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Re: Structure Killers

well then you can't moan when someone has the decency (if you will?) to let them know it was you
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Unread 14 Aug 2004, 22:22   #11
noah02
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Re: Structure Killers

Oh we let he person know we warned him to stop making us send defence to each other or we would get covert on his ass so we did
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Written by Kloopy Wed Mar 16 22:06:43 2005

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Unread 14 Aug 2004, 23:55   #12
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Re: Structure Killers

Battleships should be the only ships that can kill structures as they are the only ships with the fire power to do so etc
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Unread 14 Aug 2004, 23:59   #13
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Thumbs up Re: Structure Killers

You know i actually like that idea
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The following is a list of problems found in various places throughout the manual and game. We love you Noah!

Written by Kloopy Wed Mar 16 22:06:43 2005

Retired just for a bit....

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Unread 15 Aug 2004, 00:23   #14
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Re: Structure Killers

Like Pirates need something that's as powerful as they are..
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Unread 15 Aug 2004, 07:45   #15
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Re: Structure Killers

I agree with the discussion in another thread and as troll said above, perhaps making it so BS are the only struct killers...

Though there's also been the 'planetary shield' suggestion. Maybe if the amount of damage this 'absorbed' was in relation to the size of attacker target (say takes 100 damage * how many times bigger the attacker is?). Then again, this is also unfair on ziks/cats, as they are easily attacked by people smaller than them... As a zik I simply find it impossible to hit most terrans, and the biggest xans I can hit alone are about 2/3rds my size, whilst terrs half my size can roid me :/
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Unread 15 Aug 2004, 08:07   #16
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Re: Structure Killers

Structure Killers suck arse

Lo Noah btw

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Unread 15 Aug 2004, 09:23   #17
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah02
Well you would say that wouldnt you.
I am sure you get paid to disagree with ppl
That's not true.

(And there's another $25!)
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Unread 15 Aug 2004, 09:41   #18
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Structure killing ships are fine; they should just not be the same class ship as the pods.
I agree Leshy. But they are very annoying! attacked twice in a row, could not build any ships
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Unread 15 Aug 2004, 14:39   #19
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Re: Structure Killers

Structure killers imo are fine as they are.

Although they are annoying things when hit by them, (as my last target will agree after i cost them all factories, 4 finance centres, 3 wave amps, 1 reflector and 1 e mine )

To remove them would completely negate the point in having structures, might as well return to the old con/res idea of pre-PAX.

To change their class to something other than pods would mean you'd have to upgrade them, as they suck without backup, and will result in larger kill fleets anyway, and i'd rather loose a few structures and roids than loose roids, structures and ships.

To make them BS only will change the whole balance of them game, they'll never be used seriously except by cruiser whores, and defeats the point of different races.
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Unread 15 Aug 2004, 17:09   #20
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Re: Structure Killers

I disagree Brimestone I think that they would indeed be used. The differance being they would become a punishing ship used by the alliances to cut down there larger enemies. If someone sends structure killers at you and they have no relation to the normal pod fleet you might say it's a personal attack. As it is now it's nothing for everyone to include a few killers with there pod fleet, meaning roiding is not just hindering smaller players by taking there roids but your also setting them back in Time and Resources by destroying the structures.
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Unread 16 Aug 2004, 22:08   #21
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Re: Structure Killers

I personally hate the structure killers, but I think they should be kept in the same class as the pods, but there should be something done about them. Either make them very expensive, or very weak armor or firepower wise. That way, if someone wants, really wants to destroy someone, he can do it, but it's not worth it sending them on every day roiding missions. That's the most irritating thing of all, why in gods name would send them on a roiding mission? They don't increase XP, they don't kill anything that might kill you, they just cause annoyance and hatred on the part of the attacked.

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Unread 16 Aug 2004, 22:10   #22
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Re: Structure Killers

And, as a side note, has anyone else noticed that structure killing doesn't seem to be very random? I lost 4 structures out of 54 the other day in an attack. 1 Light Factory, 1 Medium Factory, 1 Heavy Factory, and 1 Finance Center. Didn't lose any of 18 Amps, any of 20 assorted mines....very very odd.

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Unread 17 Aug 2004, 01:29   #23
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Re: Structure Killers

Structure killers don't add anything to the average "Just roiding for profit" fleet, but they add immensely to the fleet actions of those alliances waging wars, for instance the 1up vs LCH or Vision, etc wars. Here it is necessary to add a little more sting to a roiding fleet. Otherwise it reduces further the incentive to defend at an alliance level, and would make it more profitable for alliances to act just as Attack Groups.

Frequently during the round as it came time to allocate scarce resources, the choice was made to ignore a fleet without structure killers in favor of one defending one that did, or even taking a 300 roid loss off one planet so the likely defence fleets could go capture 1200.

Even ignoring this, structure killers are a way to balance the fact that instead of like 10 constructions from back in The Day, now you can have 150 or so. Why not just play a Terran with Construction Priority maxxed out who didn't even roid, but just built nothing but mines and mine research. Nobody could touch you... the perfect defence. Considering that many planets can't get over 1000 asteroids, its not far fetched at all.

How they fit into fleet balance is another question, but I think ultimately its fairly well balanced.
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Unread 17 Aug 2004, 04:02   #24
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melesse
And, as a side note, has anyone else noticed that structure killing doesn't seem to be very random? I lost 4 structures out of 54 the other day in an attack. 1 Light Factory, 1 Medium Factory, 1 Heavy Factory, and 1 Finance Center. Didn't lose any of 18 Amps, any of 20 assorted mines....very very odd.

Melesse
That has happened to me as well. A few days ago someone decided to cvert op me, I lost my 3 factories and then a finance centre. I rebuilt them, got attacked today and again them 3 factories go along with 1 or two other things. Out of about 11 structures destroyed I have lost 6 factories, 1 amp, 2 refineries, a finance centre and a security centre. This despite the fact that amps and finance centres easily make up half of my structures.
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Unread 17 Aug 2004, 17:26   #25
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Re: Structure Killers

a)There is no good reason to have structure killers in the same cateogry as pods.
b)There is no good reason to have structure killers faster then cruisers/battleships

People will always build lots of flak for pods, so this means they will always have lots of flak for structure killers when they want to twat someone.

If structure killers are actually a "big alliance tool" as many people claim them to be, there is no reason to have them travel fast. You want to bust structures and ruin a planet? Mix them with a kill fleet and get all your friends to attack the big nasty target.

As it is now, people just build them for the fun of it. It's fun to royally shaft some n00bs planet.

They need to change if the goal of PA is to build up a larger player base.
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Unread 17 Aug 2004, 22:53   #26
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahrim
As it is now, people just build them for the fun of it. It's fun to royally shaft some n00bs planet.
That's the only problem I have with them, succinctly stated. If they could change them to make it more of a alliance thing, then I would be much much happier. I think it is perfect for large alliance wars, but it should never be part of a roiding fleet.

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Unread 27 Aug 2004, 23:52   #27
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Re: Structure Killers

This got a tad longer then intended at first but I hope the PA Crew atleast takes the time to read it. Even thou I might at time stray a bit off topic ;-)
----

I know structure killers are to a degree a valuable tool inn ally wars.

But it seems to me theire maynly used to gain extra score when roiding.
And you usualy roid planets smaler then youreself.
This means theire main function is to make the weak planets weaker and Strong planets stronger.
Giving the loosers a longer time to rebuild and generally making it harder for the loosing side to get back up during or after wars aswell .
While at the same time it gives the winning side a upper hand which they should not need.

And even thou its correct that terrans can rebuild structures inn no time other races cant build as fast and we want more ziks and caths dont we ;-).
And while you have cons as pri 1 you loose out on Researh,Mining or securety which makes you even weaker.

Quite frankly I dont see the need for structure killers to exist at all.
If you realy want to kill off an anoying planet you can still try to do a fleet catch like inn the old days.
It requires more effort and skill to do, but that is not a bad thing if it takes more to take out somebody for "good".
It should be harder to destroy an opponent.
Actually to be an anoying planet that the winning side feels it needs to take out is a credit to you as a player, unlike the fencesitting puffs making good ranks.

Also the weaker planets getting "owned" are often the new blood we need into this game.
To get roided is part of the deal inn this game.
But if youre finaly as a noob has understood half of this game and started to comprehend the tech tree and might even looked at ship stats.
Then all youre factories are killed and you cant get a singel ship builded would you keep on playing or would you rather go play some FPS,RPG or PA clone online?
There must be hundreds of competing games out there atm.

Co opping is an entirely different thing.
Since to co op sucssessfully to destroy something you dont have to be bigger then youre target which usualy is the case with Struct killers.
All that is needed is that the target has a ****ed up ratio on engineerings and structures.
To avoid Co op to be exploited by big players Co Opping noobs for score "simply" put inn something like that you cant do Havoc missions on planets smaler then 80% youre score or that you can only do Havoc co op on planets who attack you the last 72 ticks.
Havoc is inn my oppinion to be used as vengeance for smal planet against its attackers.
The Information Black-out needs to remain as it is for us to be able to take out distorters on planets who has fokused on those.
Planets with loads of distorters are mostly rather big so no need to protect them anyway.


On a side note I wish that PA would be free to play for planets after tick 1000.
It would draw more fresh blood to it.
The hard core will still want to play for first ally rank and pay while the newbies who join late dont have to pay to learn the game and to get dragged into it.
We want them adicted dont we ;-)
Easier for me to get peeps to join to try it out when its free.
And with its getting free after after tick 1k you should be able to avoid the multi farms popping up.
Atleast if you made Freebies unable to be able to cap more roids then they could mine ;-)

Inn r3-r4 while it was free I reqruited both of my closest bosses along with 7 other co-workers
Even thou ~100 NOK aint even money its hard to do now.

PS. Im on the winning side so the reason Im against struct killers is not that Ive been hitted by them alot ;-)
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Unread 30 Aug 2004, 10:47   #28
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Re: Structure Killers

I almost agree completely with tpb, the only problem I have is that I really love the structure killers as it adds a new dimension to the game. But they're really a bitch for the new and smallest players. Destroying someone's structures at 25% is ridiculous, it should be put way lower. Something like 10-15%, 20% AT MOST.

This being said,

Raid % is fine
And bring back some sort of cargo ships
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Unread 30 Aug 2004, 17:27   #29
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Re: Structure Killers

Just dont give score for it unless target is (alot) bigger then attacker.
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Unread 30 Aug 2004, 20:59   #30
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
no

he's just thought things through.

do you really think that people give a crap about killing a newbie's structures? do they gain anything from it? somehow, i can't see it. if the structure killers are, however, good ablaitive armour for pods, they'll be sent along and the building damage will be incidental

rather than getting rid of structure killers, how about deducting XP from people if they kill structures of planets that're smaller than them. that'd probably be a deterrant

-mist
Not an XP deduction, but maybe an exponential gain in XP in relation to victim size
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Unread 31 Aug 2004, 00:18   #31
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Re: Structure Killers

If they're half your size, you louse half your total possible xp if you kill structures.

Conversely if they're twice your size you GAIN twice as much XP.

job done really, you'll be encouraged to level the playing field, a two pronged attack at limiting expotential growth. Which is usually what everyone moans about.
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Unread 31 Aug 2004, 00:27   #32
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Re: Structure Killers

I'm pretty sure you don't get extra score of any kind for destroying anything at all, whether attacking or defending, structures or otherwise.

So that whole line of arguments is nullified. This fact could be better published to dissuade people who -think- they're getting score for it I suppose.
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Unread 31 Aug 2004, 00:49   #33
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cayl
I'm pretty sure you don't get extra score of any kind for destroying anything at all, whether attacking or defending, structures or otherwise.
It's obvious that you don't get XP for killing ships, it's doubtable that you get any for destroying structures.
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Unread 31 Aug 2004, 00:49   #34
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cayl
I'm pretty sure you don't get extra score of any kind for destroying anything at all, whether attacking or defending, structures or otherwise.

So that whole line of arguments is nullified. This fact could be better published to dissuade people who -think- they're getting score for it I suppose.
Score or not, it's very bad VERY VERY BAD for the newbies. It must be reduced absolutely

But should be kept in game also cuse it add a nice dimension... but the % is way too high.
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Unread 31 Aug 2004, 10:02   #35
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Re: Structure Killers

The structure killer should be in because it's very nice if you have an alliance war or just with someone you don't like, that you're able to crush his structures. Because other wise he can send away his fleet and the only thing you can get from him is some roids.
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Unread 2 Sep 2004, 15:19   #36
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cayl
I'm pretty sure you don't get extra score of any kind for destroying anything at all, whether attacking or defending, structures or otherwise.

So that whole line of arguments is nullified. This fact could be better published to dissuade people who -think- they're getting score for it I suppose.
Don't know who you're reffering to, but I was posting a suggestion, not a statement of how the round currently works....
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Unread 2 Sep 2004, 15:45   #37
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Re: Structure Killers

The structure killer is a good thing in a round where constructions dont win/lose the game. You can set back a player that chooses to run instead of trying to fight.

Its a motivator in this war game
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Unread 14 Sep 2004, 09:12   #38
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brimstone

To remove them would completely negate the point in having structures, might as well return to the old con/res idea of pre-PAX.
I like that. Like Adam Sandler in Starsky and Hutch: Do it! Common do it!
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Unread 22 Oct 2004, 20:51   #39
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Re: Structure Killers

Have any changes been made?
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 15:07   #40
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Structure Killers

It's probably been said before but i dont care, im saying it anyway.

Structure killers are bad, or at least the way they are implented are. probably 80-90% of the time they just wipe out peoples factories, no matter what ratio or how many you build.

This is a fine idea if you think everyone only uses them to take on the big nasty people who are beyond the reach of conventional fleet attacks.
But they are more used by people to bash targets smaller than themselves simply for the purpose of making it easier to bash them again later on.

At least make it so that other buildings are hit equallysuch as a percentage of some sort, (eg, if targ has 50% amps, out of 100 structures, and you have enough to kill 10 structures, 5 of those killed will be amps. etc etc.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 20:40   #41
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Re: Structure Killers

Really, the main problem is Galleons. They do a lot more damage than the other structure killers and unlike the others are good pod flak.
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Unread 5 Nov 2004, 01:59   #42
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Re: Structure Killers

Jester, there is no ship that is good pod flak. The only way for a ship to be good pod flak is for it to be cheaper than the pod (since dmg is distributed solely by ship #) since the roiding ships are all the cheapest in their class, the best flak for a pod is more pods.

Now if you are talking about trying to flak through kill ships and having minimal losses then pure numbers doesn't matter as much as armor....but seriously trying to flak through kill ships is kinda stupid.
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Unread 5 Nov 2004, 02:15   #43
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Re: Structure Killers

Fishies?

Edit: I guess a lot of players (including myself) are still thinking in terms of the old formula. A quick look at the new one shows that you're right. Gryphons, Centaurs, Fishies and Pulsars all qualify. With Gryphons being by far the best due to their high armor efficiency and low low cost.
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Unread 5 Nov 2004, 02:34   #44
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Re: Structure Killers

i don't follow you helix.

100 pods, each with 100 armour take 1000 damage. 10 die
100 pods, each with 100 armour and 100 other ships, each with 200 armour take 1000 damange, 5 pods and 2-3 other ships die. as long as the other ships are no more expensive, this reduces losses.

how is this not useful? (not played pax type game, so i genuinly don't see what you mean)
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Unread 5 Nov 2004, 03:07   #45
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
i don't follow you helix.

100 pods, each with 100 armour take 1000 damage. 10 die
100 pods, each with 100 armour and 100 other ships, each with 200 armour take 1000 damange, 5 pods and 2-3 other ships die. as long as the other ships are no more expensive, this reduces losses.

how is this not useful? (not played pax type game, so i genuinly don't see what you mean)
-mist
The new formula doesn't distribute shots, it distributes actual damage applied directly to armor. Since the ship with 200 armor costs more, the damage / resources you paid will actually be higher on the pods. Therefore, the most efficient way to flak pods is to have a high armor/low cost unit that will draw fire away from the pods efficiently.

For example: A raider costs 40k and has 190 armor. A pirate costs 57850 and has 300 armor. Equal value of each is 1157 Raiders and 800 Pirates. Equal number of value units gives us 925600.

Adding these to the battlecalc with 1000 Gryphons firing results in:

45 Pirates dead (= 2,603,250 resources)
71 Raiders dead (= 2,840,000 resources)
Total killed = 5,438,750

Now, doubling the Raider count and removing the Pirates gives us:

142 Raiders dead (= 5,680,000 resourcse)

So Helix is right and wrong. You don't actually save any pods, but you do take less losses. In the traditional sense of flak, this is a change.

And Galleons are still worth building. So ner.
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Unread 5 Nov 2004, 03:14   #46
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Re: Structure Killers

Galleons are worth it purely for the miserable face on your target when he sees he won't be building ships for a while.
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Unread 5 Nov 2004, 13:21   #47
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Re: Structure Killers

surely, distributing shots is the same as distributing damage? each shot must be worth a set amount of damage?

-mist
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Unread 5 Nov 2004, 15:42   #48
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
surely, distributing shots is the same as distributing damage? each shot must be worth a set amount of damage?
Not under the old rules, due to differing agilities and shot overflow you could influence combat in different ways.
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Unread 5 Nov 2004, 16:52   #49
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Re: Structure Killers

well no, but still, if you include armour of the same class that's cheaper than that on the pod, you're going to loose less stuff when you attack... this has to hold true for the game to make any sense...

-mist
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Unread 5 Nov 2004, 22:50   #50
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Re: Structure Killers

we've drifted from the topic. This isn't about how wonderful flak they make, its about that fact that it (as has certainly been said before) promotes bashing, which is only fun if your the underdog taking on the "big mighty enemy".
They are just pointless destruction as they are mostly used, to waste a target usually smaller than you more than they already are by roiding and fleet destruction.

And noone has commented on the other problem i brought up about factories dying far too easily compared to other buildings.

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