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Unread 23 Jan 2003, 21:18   #1
Dibdevlin
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Palestinians shoot down Peace Plan

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...216EST0590.DTL


I think its very short sighted of people to think that if the United States stopped backing Isreal that suddenly the Palestinians would become peacefull.
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Unread 23 Jan 2003, 22:54   #2
Dante Hicks
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Re: Palestinians shoot down Peace Plan

Quote:
Originally posted by Dibdevlin
I think its very short sighted of people to think that if the United States stopped backing Isreal that suddenly the Palestinians would become peacefull.
Absolutley true. Why would they become peaceful? Why should they accept peace on the terms as they stand? That's like expecting the Russians to accept a truce after the Germans were hundreds of miles inside their borders. If I was "in charge" of the Palestenian resistance, if the Americans had withdrawn their support I would redouble my efforts to fight the Israeli's, hoping to wear them down militarily and economically. Unless, of course there had been a radical policy shift inside Israel.

The Israeli's have done their part to destroy, discredit or co-opt the secular Palestenian resistance. Once you've done that, the only people still fighting are the nutters. The Israeli's made it all about force, and fair enough, they're stronger for the time being. But they gotta accept the consequences which is almost permanent war for the next few decades.
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Unread 23 Jan 2003, 22:59   #3
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Re: Re: Palestinians shoot down Peace Plan

Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
The Israeli's made it all about force.
I think thats a rather one sided view of it. I don't think the Palestinians started off saying "Well lets talk about this and try to come to some peacefull agreement."
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Unread 23 Jan 2003, 22:59   #4
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I didnt know that Peace Plan had become a euphamism for surrender.

A peace plan normally involves actions being taken by both sides, rather than being "a request to stand down while gaining nothing".

also

Quote:
"We are committed to our strategy and our belief in God," Shami said. "All of them (Israelis) are killers and all of them are bloodsuckers "
lol
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Unread 23 Jan 2003, 23:08   #5
Dante Hicks
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Re: Re: Re: Palestinians shoot down Peace Plan

Quote:
Originally posted by Dibdevlin
I think thats a rather one sided view of it. I don't think the Palestinians started off saying "Well lets talk about this and try to come to some peacefull agreement."
Well, I dislike the school playground argument of "He started it", but it does have an essential truth to it. Jews moved to the region and decided they needed to make a state in a set geographical location. To ensure they had a demographic majority in the territory they had selected they needed to do some forced expulsions.

That started the chain off (well, OK a big part of the chain started with the Germans) which has been continuing to this date. I'm sure there's been times where either side could have done something to reduce the cycle, but the Israeli's - by and large - haven't elected to do this. A reasonable settlement on the political spectrum would involve the Israeli's giving up a lot that they have. A lot that they had by 1948 let anone in later territorial expansions. They don't want that.

They can't win on the political arena so they move it to the military where they've had the upperhand. But I think in the long-term they are signing up to a level of violence I think they will find unsustainable (for economic and demographic reasons).

Even presuming the "Arabs" have no rights, the current Israeli strategy isn't particularly smart.
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Unread 23 Jan 2003, 23:16   #6
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forgive me if im wrong, and i guess it aint against anyones point of view, but wasnt the whole shebang started by the 'allies' having to find a new home for the annexed jews after the second world war (i believe palestinia was created to accomodate these people, but please dont flame me if im wrong, my education nowadays consists of 'the discovery channel'). Afaik the british, and the americans were there at the start of the affair, even started the affair, and therefore, until a resolution is acheived should both be instrumental in the process?
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Unread 23 Jan 2003, 23:19   #7
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please read that as isreal being the home land of the jewish faith
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Unread 23 Jan 2003, 23:25   #8
Dante Hicks
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Yeah, the British (as with many things) hold a hell of a lot of historic blame with this issue. But the Zionists/Jews certainly seized the initiative in making their own state.

I don't blame the Israeli's for their actions after WWII. In the 40's if I was a Jew (which I am partially) I'd have been a zionist. I'd have married within my faith to preserve what remained of my race. I'd have wanted a nation state to defend us. I might have even supported military force to get us a state. But I can't justify the subsequent actions decades afterwards.
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Unread 24 Jan 2003, 00:28   #9
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Palestinians shoot down Peace Plan

Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
Well, I dislike the school playground argument of "He started it", but it does have an essential truth to it. Jews moved to the region and decided they needed to make a state in a set geographical location. To ensure they had a demographic majority in the territory they had selected they needed to do some forced expulsions.

That started the chain off (well, OK a big part of the chain started with the Germans) which has been continuing to this date. I'm sure there's been times where either side could have done something to reduce the cycle, but the Israeli's - by and large - haven't elected to do this. A reasonable settlement on the political spectrum would involve the Israeli's giving up a lot that they have. A lot that they had by 1948 let anone in later territorial expansions. They don't want that.

They can't win on the political arena so they move it to the military where they've had the upperhand. But I think in the long-term they are signing up to a level of violence I think they will find unsustainable (for economic and demographic reasons).

Even presuming the "Arabs" have no rights, the current Israeli strategy isn't particularly smart.
You need to check the history books again.

Highlights:
Zionist movement began in 1890's. Jews bought homes, farms and businesses. They paid for their homes and farms.

60 years later Ottoman Empire falls. Britain controls area. Britain gives Jews control of area.

Jews declare state of Israel. Arabs from all sides attack Israel.

Non-Jewish Arabs flee in fear, and congregate in West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Israel beats the **** out of multiple Arab countries.

Humiliated Arabs vow revenge and later mass troops on Israeli border.

Israel pre-emptively strikes Egyptian Air Force to ensure air superiority. Arabs invade and lose again.

Now they are really upset.
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Unread 24 Jan 2003, 00:53   #10
Dante Hicks
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Palestinians shoot down Peace Plan

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Originally posted by Texan
Britain gives Jews control of area.
Which clearly they had no right to do. And yes, Jewish settlers had been living (relatively peacefully it must be said) for some time. The original zionists were often utopian socialists.

But forced relocations did occur, and yes, the Arab states did respond in their own idiotic militaristic manner. And since then we've had a situation with an ever-increasing population of Palestenian settlers who have been cnuted by their own neighbours and by the Israeli's.
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Unread 24 Jan 2003, 01:15   #11
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if u ask me its all gone a little to far..i mean the suicide bombers are a b****y joke. A guy i knew was killed from one of the explosions on a bus. The isrealis have offered just about 99% to the palestinians yet they will still not accept. The Palestines put children to the front line (the ones throwing the stones) knowing that the IDF will not shoot at them so that the guys with the artillery have a shield to protect them while the shoots down the IDF. A little sick and sadistic if u ask me. Then in the papers the isrealis are shown to be wrong from killing children when the palestines were the ones who put their children there in the first place and the IDF trying not to hit them but in some cases a bullet goes astray and isreal are shown to be the ones in the wrong.


just my 2 cents
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Unread 24 Jan 2003, 01:18   #12
Dante Hicks
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nem3sis
The isrealis have offered just about 99% to the palestinians yet they will still not accept.
99% of what?
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Unread 24 Jan 2003, 01:24   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
99% of what?
as far as i know (dont take my word for it) israel offered palestine 99% of their land back...something to that effect
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Unread 24 Jan 2003, 01:30   #14
Dante Hicks
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nem3sis
as far as i know (dont take my word for it) israel offered palestine 99% of their land back...something to that effect
That's certainly not true. Especially since (under some definitions) 99% of their land would be 99% of Israel, which obviously isn't going to happen. There's numerous offers which have been made, withdrawn, etc. The one currently considered as part of the Oslo Agreement was that the Israeli's wouldn't increase their settlements on the West Bank, Jerusalem woud be partitioned, etc.

I'm sure Texan or someone else can supply some decent scholarly links from "their side", but from broadly the Palestenian side a couple of good reads are Edward Said (pretty much anything by him recently) or Noam Chomsky's Fateful Triangle.
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Unread 24 Jan 2003, 01:36   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
99% of their land would be 99% of Israel
how is that considering israel was declared as the jewish state. i think it was a large percentage of the west bank and gazza strip again i could be wrong

and anyways i think it a little wrong when it comes to how israeli children are having to travel to school in bullet proof busses, would u think so?

Last edited by Nem3sis; 24 Jan 2003 at 01:48.
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Unread 24 Jan 2003, 02:00   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
That's certainly not true. Especially since (under some definitions) 99% of their land would be 99% of Israel, which obviously isn't going to happen. There's numerous offers which have been made, withdrawn, etc. The one currently considered as part of the Oslo Agreement was that the Israeli's wouldn't increase their settlements on the West Bank, Jerusalem woud be partitioned, etc.

I'm sure Texan or someone else can supply some decent scholarly links from "their side", but from broadly the Palestenian side a couple of good reads are Edward Said (pretty much anything by him recently) or Noam Chomsky's Fateful Triangle.
Well clearly you have one sided views but regardless......This struggle dates back thousands of years to be historically correct...It is easy to point fingers at any wrongs of both sides over the years.

Bottom line is though that the entire region is filled with arab countries yet none lift a finger to help...In fact they have used the palestians for years to keep pressure on Israel and enjoy them doing the dirty work.....Further the west bank was part of JOrdan who wanted nothing to do with forming a homeland for palestine and gave up rights to that area....the gaza strip was part of egypt and once again nothing was done to give them homeland....Both those areas came under Israeli control in subsequent wars with their neighboring arab states.....

And one other fact you like to leave out is when Israel was recognized so were borders set for Palestine....But rather then take them they wanted it all and knowing the surrounding countries were to attack and push israel into the sea most palestinians in israel left the region on their own, they refused their own state that was offered and waited for israels demise. Only thing is , Israel won the war......the conflict will continue on and on til Palestians are ready to truely recognize Israels right to exist and some real talks can be reached...til then we can discuss all we want, far better minds then ours have tried for years to solve this , but you need people who want it to be solved in order for anything to work.....
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Unread 24 Jan 2003, 02:08   #17
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both sides are known to have done wrong in different situations but neither side is willing to admin they were wrong and realise that we are all just the same and can quite easily live together which has been possible in previous years. Its sad to see children being brought up with very strong views against the opposing side and grow up not knowing how to live civilised. Anyways its past 1am and i should be working on my report for skool
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Unread 24 Jan 2003, 02:18   #18
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Unread 24 Jan 2003, 22:15   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus
There appears to be an "e" missing from the thread title.

PLD

I hate to admit it, but the Israel situation is more or less the only topic which I have strong views on with little background knowledge. However, something I heard which I cba to check up on: Albert Einstein offered presidency of Israel when state is created. He looks at the government already in place and refuses because he finds them a little too much like the Nazis.

Only thing is, they haven't changed. Remember the interior minister who explained that to deal with Palestine they should look back to the Holocaust and use its example (!!!) ?
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