[Declined] Jump Gate Probe

[Vapula]

I'd suggest a small change in JGP :

When you JGP a planet, you only see the ships WITH SAME ETA than yours.

When the limit that you can only JGP a planet you're heading to (or your own planet), it was meant to avoid so-called "Scanner planets", with insane numbers of amps, making the use of distorter quite useless when you're against some big alliance.

By making JGP only show the ships with the same ETA than yourself, you'll still see if your target gets defence... but you'll have to do it yourself and not to ask some Scanner to launch a 1-ship fleet, do the JGP and recall.

This will have as side effet to prevent seeing fleet in prelaunch which is quite good too... Prelaunch allow to NOT have lots of people all connecting at same time to launch as the fleet may have been prelaunched without problem. It's also quite logic as a prelaunched fleet is *NOT* moving toward your planet and, as such, hasn't enterred the jumpgate yet.

[WesseH]

The Scanner would become obsolete by implementing this, added to that EVERYBODY would need jgp's to attack properly OR be FORCED to bring a scanner along on all their attacks...

though this change would make attacking a buttload more difficult.. i think it will also lead to stagnation of the game and a lowering of cooperation between various types of players (mainly attackers and scanners obviously)

[furball]

Originally Posted by WesseH

The Scanner would become obsolete by implementing this, added to that EVERYBODY would need jgp's to attack properly OR be FORCED to bring a scanner along on all their attacks...

though this change would make attacking a buttload more difficult.. i think it will also lead to stagnation of the game and a lowering of cooperation between various types of players (mainly attackers and scanners obviously)

What WesseH said.

[Kal]

u can do news scans u know, you don;t NEED a JPG

my feeling is that the whole point of the jpg/fleetscan was to make scan planets largly pointless. So i'd supprot this change.

However I think we would need to rethink the way amps and distorters work so that your standard player would eb able to scan hios target without needing lots of amps.

[Nahoj]

Perhaps have Scanners/Dists based on percentages like Sec Centers and Res Labs. You know you just need a higher percentage of dits to avoid being scanned. that way planets who couldnt have larger numbers in amps yet had a chance of achieving a higher percentage. I think this also will introduce even more planning into what structures you will be building.

[NitinA]

Originally Posted by Kal

u can do news scans u know, you don;t NEED a JPG

my feeling is that the whole point of the jpg/fleetscan was to make scan planets largly pointless. So i'd supprot this change.

However I think we would need to rethink the way amps and distorters work so that your standard player would eb able to scan hios target without needing lots of amps.

This idea makes certain strategic elements of the game obsolete--such as proper fleet catchs (to see the eta of the return fleet). Also, how does a newbie know that when he lands on his target it'll have been waved 6 times, espicially with the four tick delay in news scans. There's a bunch more. It may even promote stagnation, as you'll be forced to do scan research (and usually the HCT researchs are done by the majority, while scan done early by scan planets). Personally, I don't see scan planets as a bad thing in the game.

-NitinA

[Ultimate Newbie]

My main worry is not the effect it will have on scanners - news scans could be adjusted to provide middle ground (as iirc news scans wont say whether a fleet is friendly or hostile, so there is still incentive to do jgps yourself, and ofc because you could recall at ETA 4 as opposed to ETA 1 with the current news scans etc).

My main worry will be the massive increase of bashing that goes on - not because of well designed fleets etc, but simply because the risk of landing will be so much higher players will be forced to send larger fleets (as opposed to smarter fleets) to ensure sucess/survival.

This is the flipside to randomness and un-predictability (imo) - you pay with more damage (to both attackers and defenders). The problem is that the smaller players will be affected the most, as they have less resources to build the 30 000 amps you'll need plus they wont have the roids to recover if they loose their fleet on a regular basis.

I quite like how it is now tbh. :\

[furball]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

I quite like how it is now tbh. :\

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

My main worry is not the effect it will have on scanners - news scans could be adjusted to provide middle ground (as iirc news scans wont say whether a fleet is friendly or hostile, so there is still incentive to do jgps yourself, and ofc because you could recall at ETA 4 as opposed to ETA 1 with the current news scans etc).

My main worry will be the massive increase of bashing that goes on - not because of well designed fleets etc, but simply because the risk of landing will be so much higher players will be forced to send larger fleets (as opposed to smarter fleets) to ensure sucess/survival.

This is the flipside to randomness and un-predictability (imo) - you pay with more damage (to both attackers and defenders). The problem is that the smaller players will be affected the most, as they have less resources to build the 30 000 amps you'll need plus they wont have the roids to recover if they loose their fleet on a regular basis.

I quite like how it is now tbh. :\

i'm not certain it does increase the risk in landing - assuming u can get a news scan - u just assume all the fleets you don;t know are on your side are on the other side.

And its relativly easy to change the way amps and distorters work as well as the research times.

[BeeKiller]

This seems completely pointless for the following reasons.
If you adjust news scans so we could see more recent changes then all your really doing is giving us a slightly harder to interrpret version of a jgp, so scanners would still be used but for news scans and not jgps.
If you didn't show which fleets were hostile or friendly in a news scan then it makes it impossible to know the difference between, another alliance hitting the same target, or the planets alliance defending. The idea of assuming coords you don't know as being defence is unsafe, especially for smaller alliances who's members may not be as active as the big alliances and will find it harder to get information on the different planets in the scan. The jgp is a convenient way of summerising the incoming on a planet, and as we don't have mil scans anymore, you still have to put a considerable amount of thought sometimes into what they may have sent and if it's worth landing. Putting in the extra overhead you talk about of attempting to interrpret news scans is just plain bad, and would deter alot of people from bothering to attack, e.g. those with a tight schedule who work and can only check their attacks for a short window before work (or those who go to school). They simply wouldn't have the time to check every fleet and try to work out what they sent based on the information (or lack of!) in a news scan and so they would land less attacks, get less roids, and probably lose motivation and become inactive.
Jgp's can make it possible for people to finally get some sleep (especially people in inactive galaxies), because you can see pre-launchers and attacks at varying eta's so if you're defending a planet you can jgp it and you might spot he has a new wave of incoming. Without being able to see this (and a news scan wouldn't show you this information) it makes it almost impossible to help your friends or alliances members who are in either inactive galaxies, or who are getting waved once they've gone offline. So they'd either have to never sleep, or get roided and probably lose motivation.

Now I know some of this seems like worst case scenario, but, i believe it would happen. Jgp's are a very useful scan as they are, without them, both attacking and defending would be much more complicated and would require alot more time simply reading through scans trying to work out what on earth is going on. If you don't like the whole situation of 'scanner planets' then make it easier for normal planets to scan. Or, alternatively, make it more expensive to jgp with a prelaunched fleet than with one thats actually left your planet. I think that would solve half the problem, don't have it cost so much that it would bankrupt you doing it, but it would at least only be used in emergency/urgent situations, and scanners would have less insentive to jgp for people.

[hellsmurf]

well then u have to rethink scan tech tree....

[MAdnRisKy]

include hostile / friendly fleets in the news scan then......

solves a few problems

[Cochese]

Make scan planets a full fledged race, scrap the JGP (who's purpose is defeated--an issue that STILL hasn't been addressed) in favor of old Mil scans, and there we are.

[Vapula]

Obviously, all people talking here ARE in an alliance and, as such, HAVE a scanner planet available
But don't forget that more than 1/2 the players are NOT in an alliance this round... So, scanner planets is really unfair to them...

They already have the disadvantage of not having alliance attacks and defence...
It's somehow unfair that those in an alliance can o roid happily from tick 72 while they are limited to risky launches because they were not able to research JGP and have to wait much more... that's somehow changing them in sitting ducks awaiting to be shoot !!!

And, about the "bashing", don't forget that the attacked planet can still FLEE should the incoming be too big...
And sending an overkill fleet is as much a risk as if the target gets enough defence to bash it, it'd be far more catastrophic...

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Vapula

And, about the "bashing", don't forget that the attacked planet can still FLEE should the incoming be too big...

That assumes that the defending planet is active enough to actually log in during the 7-9 ticks it takes for a fleet to land - which is a fair statement for people in alliances, but think of all the small, solo or less active players out there who you were appealing for in the rest of your post. THEY will be the biggest loosers, but everyone looses when inefficient fleets are in use - hence calculators.

And sending an overkill fleet is as much a risk as if the target gets enough defence to bash it, it'd be far more catastrophic...

but that's just the thing - people send larger bash fleets because the likelihood of it being lost is higher - so you need more def, which places even more pressure on sending bash fleets - at some stage the cycle is broken and either the attackers or defenders come out on top. Almost always it is the attackers - as you need ~3 times as much def to cover incoming.

Its a baad baaaad thing :\

[Gerbie]

I like this idea.

I'd like to remind people that YOU CAN SEE HOSTILE/FRIENDLY WITH NEWS SCANS.

Just scan the coords of the people landing with you:
The Alpha fleet has been launched, heading for 1:1:1, on a mission to Defend. Arrival tick: 111

edit: another note
I think scanning ability should be based on:
scan successfull if
(your_amps/target_distorters)*(target_value/your_value)>1

(with a cap on the value ratio's to ensure that scan planets do not get it too easy)

[WesseH]

Originally Posted by Vapula

Obviously, all people talking here ARE in an alliance and, as such, HAVE a scanner planet available
But don't forget that more than 1/2 the players are NOT in an alliance this round... So, scanner planets is really unfair to them...

ehm... let them join an alliance? its always been a key essential for succes in this game, i dont see why we should implemend changes that would affect this.

Originally Posted by Vapula

They already have the disadvantage of not having alliance attacks and defence...
It's somehow unfair that those in an alliance can o roid happily from tick 72 while they are limited to risky launches because they were not able to research JGP and have to wait much more... that's somehow changing them in sitting ducks awaiting to be shoot !!!

yep.. the difference between doing good on a free(limited) account and a PAID(nonlimited) account is that u can actually achieve something in the higher regions of the game if u PAY... if this wasnt the case i doubt anyone would still be paying...

Originally Posted by Vapula

And, about the "bashing", don't forget that the attacked planet can still FLEE should the incoming be too big...
And sending an overkill fleet is as much a risk as if the target gets enough defence to bash it, it'd be far more catastrophic...

on this part of ur post i fail to see the connection to the topic of this thread...

[Vapula]

Originally Posted by WesseH

ehm... let them join an alliance? its always been a key essential for succes in this game, i dont see why we should implemend changes that would affect this.

Easy to say... but you know many of the serious alliances which accept as many newbies as their number of member, escpecially with the 100-members limit !!!
And the other alliances are NOT organized to have Scanner planets...
So, basically, allowing scanner planets is only helping the bigger alliances and will result in scaring the other players...

Originally Posted by WesseH

yep.. the difference between doing good on a free(limited) account and a PAID(nonlimited) account is that u can actually achieve something in the higher regions of the game if u PAY... if this wasnt the case i doubt anyone would still be paying...

It's not about paying or not... Unpaid accounts don't have access to JGP anyway (unless they are in an alliance which allows them access to scanner planets).

The point is that people in the bigger alliances have some planets doing all-scan researches in 1st priority (with engineering on Research, they can complete most if not all before tick 72) while other concentrate on ships, speed and HCT.

People in smaller alliances have to scater their efforts between ships, speed, HCT and scan... one more tree to do ASAP... it's giving a huge handicap to those who are not in alliances like the top12...

Originally Posted by WesseH

on this part of ur post i fail to see the connection to the topic of this thread...

The bashing problem is a non-issue brought here by some other saying that being unable to JGP will only result in sending bigger fleet...
IMHO, scanner planets influence is mostly in beginning of game... But as growth tend to be exponential (more roids -> more ressources -> more ships -> more difficult to kill/defend against) it's exactly when a slowdown has to be put on alliances...

I know that all this may sound funny from someone who is in an alliance WITH scanner planets... But 1/2 the Planetarion rounds I played were with small alliances and I don't forget the bitter feeling of being a farm for the big alliances... that's why I stopped toplay in R5 when it became pay to play...

Planetarion player base is weakening... so, it to keep newcomers happy and make them want to play next rounds it means weakening alliance influence, I think I'm ready to give up that part to have planetarion go on... Else, we'll end with about 1000 players 90% of them being in the TOP12 alliances... which is quite similar to planetarion's end !!!

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Gerbie

I like this idea.

I'd like to remind people that YOU CAN SEE HOSTILE/FRIENDLY WITH NEWS SCANS.

Just scan the coords of the people landing with you:
The Alpha fleet has been launched, heading for 1:1:1, on a mission to Defend. Arrival tick: 111

edit: another note
I think scanning ability should be based on:
scan successfull if
(your_amps/target_distorters)*(target_value/your_value)>1

(with a cap on the value ratio's to ensure that scan planets do not get it too easy)

i quite like that as it further encourages people to hit bigger planets - which whill in turn mean bigger planets need more distorters which means less finance centres and sec centres

[Kal]

declined for now, but the things discussed will be looked at when we get round to reviewing scanning as a whole.