Random vs Private vs BuddyCode

[Jonas]

To me, it seems that Buddycodes have no chance of being a success if free accounts fill up the gals as they did now. Nor totally random. I know so many had the round ruined cause of the most inactive gal ever. Using their first 2 weeks to exile to get into a half-decent gal. A few gals tho, were lucky enough to get 3 buddypacks into one gal. Obviosuly this is way too unbalacned...

Unless free accounts are stored in 100:1 + before they upgrade, there cannot be any form of random gals.

Really I just want to start a discussion around this. As I actually think private gals will be better for r12 and me who always liked random

Yeah im tired, so bit bad typing etdc. you get the point. Discuss.

-Jonas-

[Kal]

round 12 will probably have the possibility of a proper private packs solution rather than the interim buddy code solution.

private packs would be a paid only feature and the idea would be to distribute them through the universe with for example 2 packs per gal.

this should remove the balence issues with buddy codes and still allow people to be in a gal with a few friends.

[Lupin]

like in the economy

private is the only way to succee-

d.

[Forest]

Buddy packs in themselves have been a success.

However, what has failed, is idd, the gals that get 3 buudycodes against those gals who have 1 and then free planets passed around em.

I would suggest keep buddy packs, and keep free planets seperate, OR make it a limit on how many free planets in a gal (1 or 4)

[Gerbie]

Originally Posted by Lupin

like in the economy

private is the only way to succee-

d.

rofl
So why is there governments then?

I like buddy codes, but I landed in a decent gal.

[Lupin]

Originally Posted by Gerbie

rofl
So why is there governments then?

some say the economy is doing the politic.

[jerome]

Originally Posted by Gerbie

rofl
So why is there governments then?

I like buddy codes, but I landed in a decent gal.

I didn`t so I don`t share your view.

On topic:

Buddy Packs in my opinion, can only work well ifthe power of the "random" factor isn`t too huge. As it is now.

Suggestions would be either something like:
3 Private Buddies + 2 Randoms -> 5 man gal
3 Private Buddies + 4 Randoms ( but then again, people can surely get 2 buddy packs in this gal-setpu likke they did getting 3 private packs in this round.) -> 7 man gal

Alternatives to buddy packs are ofcourse either:
Full Random (No in-betweens/gal-changing whatsoever)
Full Private

[Blacknova]

Originally Posted by _ryzekiel_

Buddy Packs in my opinion, can only work well ifthe power of the "random" factor isn`t too huge. As it is now.

They are also open to abuse, the higher the random factor, the higher the probability of potential abuse unless strict controls are put in place to prevent such abuse which lead me to this proposal:

Self exile and gal exile for a planet is disabled until that account is paid for, buddy codes are only usable before the shuffle, this would mean that pre-shuffle everyone who creates a new buddy code is placed in an entirely seperate galaxy (the buddy code being a user defined password, similar to a galpin), with people then signing in with that buddy code to "warp" their planet into the correct buddy pack, with gal limits at this point being limited to 3, it's impossible to "extend" the buddy group by accident.

Planets before the shuffle are free to "warp" to different buddy packs as often as they like if they wish to get everything established. At the point of the shuffle all gals are merged randomly to form 9 person gals, with the 10th slot being open for true randoms.

This would effectively nullify the kind of abuses where people "got lucky" with their buddy codes and would outright prevent any possibility of private gals being formed, since you would have no idea which people you are working with until the shuffle. At the moment of the shuffle buddy codes are disabled, this then means that those packs are pemanent, with signups afterward being assigned randomly.

This I believe would provide the highest random factor with the lowest potential ability to abuse it, although it would need a reliable and efficient shuffler to do the job properly.

Nova

[wakey]

Thats simeralr to how I've always thought it should work, but theres a few additions I would make.

1) The shuffle shouldnt happen to tick 48, once the games started its 'slightly' harder to cheat. This still gives 48 hours for a galaxy to sort out gc and ministers

2) At the shuffle ALL inactives would be removed. Something like anyone whom hasnt logged in since tick 12 is quarenteened (ie placed in a none playing galaxy until they next login where they are then randomly assigned, well unless they dont login after the usual inactive period where they would be deleted)

3) Upon inactives being removed any free spaces in buddy groups would be filled by paid randoms.

4)Remaining paid randoms would be put together into random packs and shuffled like a private pack

5) galaxies imho should be 12 members big (or maybe even 14). (3 packs and then 3 randomly assigned free accounts, 1 per galaxy is just too few after all if we have 20 paid clusters to start with that would only be 200 freebies who would get a okish galaxy, rest would be in freebie only galaxies. With 3 freebies that 600 accounts or if we have 14 member galaxies and hence 5 free spots thats 1000 which is a little better)

6)Exile costs would be greater to prevent galaxies just exiling planets they dont like as much. Ofc to counter this inactives would have to continue being dealt with harshly. Any free account that is inactive for something like 36 hours would immediatly be moved to the quarenteen universe

[Kal]

Originally Posted by wakey

Thats simeralr to how I've always thought it should work, but theres a few additions I would make.

1) The shuffle shouldnt happen to tick 48, once the games started its 'slightly' harder to cheat. This still gives 48 hours for a galaxy to sort out gc and ministers

2) At the shuffle ALL inactives would be removed. Something like anyone whom hasnt logged in since tick 12 is quarenteened (ie placed in a none playing galaxy until they next login where they are then randomly assigned, well unless they dont login after the usual inactive period where they would be deleted)

3) Upon inactives being removed any free spaces in buddy groups would be filled by paid randoms.

4)Remaining paid randoms would be put together into random packs and shuffled like a private pack

5) galaxies imho should be 12 members big (or maybe even 14). (3 packs and then 3 randomly assigned free accounts, 1 per galaxy is just too few after all if we have 20 paid clusters to start with that would only be 200 freebies who would get a okish galaxy, rest would be in freebie only galaxies. With 3 freebies that 600 accounts or if we have 14 member galaxies and hence 5 free spots thats 1000 which is a little better)

6)Exile costs would be greater to prevent galaxies just exiling planets they dont like as much. Ofc to counter this inactives would have to continue being dealt with harshly. Any free account that is inactive for something like 36 hours would immediatly be moved to the quarenteen universe

this may be the first idea from wakey i completely agree with

[Precursors]

buddy packs of 5 sounds better

[wakey]

Packs of 5 cause major problems though. You see if we are working on the assumption that we wont be having any more than 10 Paid players per galaxy (atleast to start with) then with 5 people you are giving a situation much like the old "private with randoms" situation. You see all it would take would you are so very close to having a majority rule in your galaxy, with 5 people, all you need is to have one person friendly to your 'cause' in either the free accounts or the other pack and then one pack has complete control of the galaxy, and are in a position to abuse it without any control.

The point of having them at 3 is that it allows for more of a mix, and doesnt allow one buddy group to take over, atleast not without being accountable (so they cant go and exile your buddy group out of the galaxy and have them replaced with their own alliance for example as youd vote them out of their position if they did). And yes some of these fortress galaxies will occur, your get some galaxies where they have two buddy groups from the same alliance or block but it makes it less common (its why in an ideal world i'd personally have galaxies closer to their old sizes of 15+ members so we make such events even less likly and have the best mix but realiticly the game doesnt have the players to support galaxies bigger than 15)

[Precursors]

whatever you are saying, the current system is not working anyways.
Buddy packs of 3 is no good, we are seeing the circumstances now
Galaxy size of 15-20 would also be a nice solution

[wakey]

The problem with buddy packs this round is simply due to them being a stop gap measure (I actually got the impretion it was something to try and stop me complaining about the alliance limit not being reduced ). It was bolted on at the last minute and as such has faults and exploits that a full system would have

[Blacknova]

Packs of 3 are perfectly fine, it's just the implementation that needs to be refined. 3 packs + 1 paid random would be the most sensible option based on a good shuffler, with the remaining randoms being auto assigned to packs (assuming there wasn't the provision to do so already) and then shuffled up in the usual manner.

Nova

[Jonas]

What is the problem really, are all the free accounts...

Why not do Buddypacks/Randoms as they are now. but NO free acss in that universe. free accs are c100+ until they pay.

-Jonas-

[wakey]

Perhaps Jonas because while that might be great for the 'hardcore' players its not good for the community as a whole. You throw the free players into c100+ and they dont get a chance to mix with better players, pick up the skills and get hooked. Instead they would be constantly bashed by all the paid planets as they are easy targets and would also be hit by other free planets. They simply wouldnt be able to experiance the game to its full and would never upgrade.

Free accounts arent a problem for the universe anway, the problem is the inactive freebies and as along as they are dealt with better (such as I mentioned above and Tactitus has abouve 500 times on suggestions). If you make it so the game removes these inactives from the playing field much better then the freebie problem is less of a problem

[Precursors]

What do you expect from new players to pick up from hardcore ones when they can only mine 200 roids, cant build heavy factory etc
Free account does not allow them to play the game at all, it is more like a trap seducing them to pay to be able to play the actual game.
3 paid accounts among 7 free ones in a gal get/got screwed already

[wakey]

They pick up an awful lot more than they do stuck out with other freebies whom are no doubt also as inexperianced. You give them a much better reason to upgrade and also play in future if you allow as many as possible to experiance being in a galaxy with the more 'hardcore' players. You cant just say expect them to continue to play if you stick them with other freebies in c100+ clusters which paints a massive sign above their heads saying "ROID FARM OPEN"

[Precursors]

so you're saying it is good sacrificing paid accounts' fun in exchange of getting more paid accounts by putting them in same gal with free accounts.
This is the most flawed logic a company can have to keep it's customers.

[wakey]

How do you sacrifice paid accounts fun by allowing free accounts to be in the same galaxy as paid. I'm not saying put one paid account in every galaxy and fill it up with free accounts. What I've said is that galaxies should have a number of free account slots in them so we have 3 private packs per galaxy and either 3,4 or 5 freebie spaces. These freebie spaces are in the MINORITY so its not like paid accounts are being stuck with an overwhelming number of them.

If you were to list the problems this causes for paid accounts I'm pretty certain every single one of them will either be a) something thats actually more to do with INACTIVES rather than freebies in themselves or b) Something thats actually not a problem due to everyone being in the same boat

Oh and its pretty flawed company logic to say to decide you dont want new players which is what your basically doing in your way

[Precursors]

Originally Posted by wakey

Oh and its pretty flawed company logic to say to decide you dont want new players which is what your basically doing in your way

I didn't say I don't want new players did I? Don't twist it please, or say I said things that I haven't, although it's a common thing to do when you can't prove your point in a discussion. I merely asked a question: how/what can free account players learn/have fun when they can only mine 200 roids, get very limited tech tree etc. Free account does not allow players to play the game at all.

[wakey]

The free accounts supposed to be a taster, you have enough time before you hit the limits to have tried the game out. The key however is will they upgrade, you have a good player in your galaxy whos played before who can teach you the ropes and hence allow you to do reasonably good then theres a good chance your upgrade. If your stuck in the lower reaches, are constantly being bashed then the games not fun and your not going to upgrade, in fact you might stop even stop playing and let your account go inactive (which then makes it harder for other freebies in your galaxy and makes them less likly to pay)

No matter how good the guides are you provide, you simply cant beat a actually player for teaching a new player the ropes early on and if you can get a handful of free accounts into every galaxy you make new players experiance 10 times better

[Blacknova]

Originally Posted by wakey

How do you sacrifice paid accounts fun by allowing free accounts to be in the same galaxy as paid. I'm not saying put one paid account in every galaxy and fill it up with free accounts. What I've said is that galaxies should have a number of free account slots in them so we have 3 private packs per galaxy and either 3,4 or 5 freebie spaces. These freebie spaces are in the MINORITY so its not like paid accounts are being stuck with an overwhelming number of them.

If you were to list the problems this causes for paid accounts I'm pretty certain every single one of them will either be a) something thats actually more to do with INACTIVES rather than freebies in themselves or b) Something thats actually not a problem due to everyone being in the same boat

Oh and its pretty flawed company logic to say to decide you dont want new players which is what your basically doing in your way

And out of these 3,4 or 5 freebie spaces do you actually think even 1 out of 10 is an actual player? Not counting multi / farm / spy accounts here.

1 freebie space in a gal is fine and well, anything more than that introduces potential abuse.

Nova

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by Blacknova

And out of these 3,4 or 5 freebie spaces do you actually think even 1 out of 10 is an actual player? Not counting multi / farm / spy accounts here.

Multi and farm accounts are against the rules and should be closed--regardless of where they are. Spy accounts aren't against the rules (as long as they're not multi accounts), but free accounts don't get access to all gal status info anyway.

1 freebie space in a gal is fine and well, anything more than that introduces potential abuse.

I bet that if we eliminated all free and paid accounts that would eliminate all abuse.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Blacknova

And out of these 3,4 or 5 freebie spaces do you actually think even 1 out of 10 is an actual player? Not counting multi / farm / spy accounts here.

1 freebie space in a gal is fine and well, anything more than that introduces potential abuse.

Nova

What harm do you really think such accounts are really going to do, its not like I'm proposing that all 1up galaxies have 8 freebies while everyone else only has 2. EVERYONE has the same number of freebies and has the same chance of getting such accounts. Your not being put at any more disadvantage by them than if theres 1 or even none.

As Tactitus says the first two are both breaking the rules, spy accounts are simply just part of the game and with the way things are your going to potentially have the spy problem in anything but fully private galaxies as spy accounst ahve to be paid now so what exactly is your point here.

Now i know people like yourself in the top alliances often have this "ME ME ME" attitude and simply couldnt care less about what goes on as long as you do well but you need to wake up and realise that really yourself, myself or anyone in this community arent the people who are important if PA is to become a success again. We are a core group whose on the whole continue to play no matter what, its the new people coming into the community whom will be the ones whom decide pa's fate. If the game keeps hold of them and they keep coming in at a rate higher than the retirement rate of the veterans then the games healthy but if they join and then quit after a round the game has problems. Its this reason that new players have to be given a chance to become part of the community which first and formost means getting hooked on the game. If players are to be hooked on the game then as many of possible have to be given a chance to experaince playing with experianced players whom can help them intergrate into the game, encourage them to upgrade and give them a chance of having fun. If most free accounts are simply going to be placed in regions where everyone else is a newbie whom doesnt know what they are doing how are you supposed to get them hooked.

[Precursors]

it's not about being in top alliance, it's about having paid for the game and being in a completely inactive galaxy like myself or many others, being attacked everyday with no gal defence at all. These free accounts dont learn anything from me and i dont see them online at all to teach them anything. I pay for a game and cant even give my feedback sheesh!
While PA wants to recruit new players they lose existing players, hence the number of planets (4300) in the "universe"
I dunno bout round 12, but if things continue this way there won't be a round 13

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by Precursors

it's not about being in top alliance, it's about having paid for the game and being in a completely inactive galaxy like myself or many others, being attacked everyday with no gal defence at all.

Not all free accounts are inactive. Please don't lump them together or you'll end up throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Inactive accounts are a drain on the game and should be quarantined. Active free accounts are potential paying customers and need to be nutured (so they'll upgrade their accounts).

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Precursors

it's not about being in top alliance, it's about having paid for the game and being in a completely inactive galaxy like myself or many others, being attacked everyday with no gal defence at all. These free accounts dont learn anything from me and i dont see them online at all to teach them anything. I pay for a game and cant even give my feedback sheesh!
While PA wants to recruit new players they lose existing players, hence the number of planets (4300) in the "universe"
I dunno bout round 12, but if things continue this way there won't be a round 13

Where have I said that I want paid accounts to land in totally inactive galaxies. Did I say I want 8 freebies 2 Paid, no I didnt. 3-5 Free accounts in a galaxy WHEN everyone else has 3-5 free accounts doesnt put anyone at a major disadvantage as eveyone has the same situation.

And yes inactives can be a problem BUT i've already stated more than once that free inactives would have to be dealt with much harsher so that as much as possible we had players who want to get to know the game and whom hence might start paying for it in these galaxies

[Jonas]

Ill say it again. Paid universe in 1:1 - 99:10
Free universe in 100:1- 149:10 -No Limits, but a 2 week life period of an account, unless it get upgraded(and lands in paid universe)
The Paid/Free cannot atatck scan or cov op eachother.

more tomorrow when im less drunk. Ive written this before :/

[Brimstone]

Jonas. you have not been paying attention. If you put all the freebie accounts in basically a seperate universe, they are alienated from the word go. If you want someone to buy a product from you, you do not alienate them and say "pay up or get out." You need to give them something WORTH paying for, and that is not the way to do it.

I have played with several free-account people, and i've seen free account people who are MORE ACTIVE than the paid people. I myself have a paid account, but i've been working/away so much that i've barely been around for half the round.

People DONT upgrade cos they cant afford it/cant pay for it, or they dont get hooked on the game. Stick a group of 10 of these people together, and they are likely never to upgrade.

Put a handful of active, unpaid players in a gal with 8-10 paid active players, then the chances are that either a) they'll upgrade themselves, or b) someone in their gal will look to upgrade them. I've also seen alliances club together and pay for active freebies to be upgraded.

This is a rare occasion, (mostly as his posts are often too long to read all of it!) but i agree with wakey on the setup of Paid/unpaid. 8-10 Paid, with 3-5 unpaid would be just about the best layout with a reduced universe as we have at the moment.

The only thing i dont agree with Wakey on is the inactive time-frame. I myself was away at tick start this round, and if its one thing i've learnt, Vac mode at a crucial stage like that is NOT a good idea, as it will leave you so far behind you might as well quit anyway.

The inactives would have to be cleared out after 72 ticks protection, or with 48 hours of Protection ending, whichever others agree on, i cant make my mind up on that time frame.

Brimstone

[Gerbie]

If you have a fixed number of paid planets and add unpaid planets to those gals, then people might want to stall payment till after they have been assigned to a galaxy. You'll be in a galaxy with 1 extra paid planet once you pay your account.

I would just make gals of three people (paid planets can have buddies). Mix three of those galaxies together at tickstart.

They should lock the amount of galaxies after tickstart and create a tenth galspot: this gives new players or exilers a good place to land. Nothing worse then signing up (or exiling) and ending up in a newly created high cluster galaxie. If most places are filled: increase the maximum galsize again.

It could be an option to give Gc's the opportunity to close galaxies for new exilers.

It could be an option after a while into the game to increase buddygroups to a size of four or create galaxy PINs to have 1 new planet sign up there: this could be a reason for people to actively recruit their friends. Come and play in my gal!

[Blacknova]

Originally Posted by wakey

What harm do you really think such accounts are really going to do, its not like I'm proposing that all 1up galaxies have 8 freebies while everyone else only has 2. EVERYONE has the same number of freebies and has the same chance of getting such accounts. Your not being put at any more disadvantage by them than if theres 1 or even none.

Since when was alliances discussed in this? Please stop shifting the ground of the discussion. Spy accounts tbh should be closed off in exactly the same manner as farms and multi's (often the accounts will overlap in purpose). Simply because they break the rules does not guarantee they will be closed (if you think that you massively overestimate the ability of PATeam to catch cheaters).

Originally Posted by Wakey

Now i know people like yourself in the top alliances often have this "ME ME ME" attitude and simply couldnt care less about what goes on as long as you do well but you need to wake up and realise that really yourself, myself or anyone in this community arent the people who are important if PA is to become a success again.

Please do not attempt to generalise people, you have virtually no knowledge of me, and therefore specuating on my motivation and attitude is at best fruitless, and at worst personally offensive.

Originally Posted by Wakey

We are a core group whose on the whole continue to play no matter what, its the new people coming into the community whom will be the ones whom decide pa's fate. If the game keeps hold of them and they keep coming in at a rate higher than the retirement rate of the veterans then the games healthy but if they join and then quit after a round the game has problems.

There are plenty of reasons newbies quit, and believe me their location in a galaxy is a *trivial* problem compared to many of the other issues this game has (why do you think I want prelaunching reduced? amongst many factors it will also have the neat side effect of reducing roidracing right the way down to only the most active of people, the rest will have to attack at times when the defender MIGHT just be online). There's nothing more frustrating for either a newbie or a veteran than having some muppet send a bashfleet on prelaunch to your location because they couldn't be bothered to actually stay up in the evening, whereas if you want to protect your roids you will have to be active.

Originally Posted by Wakey

Its this reason that new players have to be given a chance to become part of the community which first and formost means getting hooked on the game. If players are to be hooked on the game then as many of possible have to be given a chance to experaince playing with experianced players whom can help them intergrate into the game, encourage them to upgrade and give them a chance of having fun. If most free accounts are simply going to be placed in regions where everyone else is a newbie whom doesnt know what they are doing how are you supposed to get them hooked.

If players are going to be hooked on the game then the attitude of the game and the community itself needs to drastically change. A lot of the alliances are not by their nature "newbie friendly" since as this is a competition of sorts, alliances will tend not to take on people who haven't already proven a basic level of ability. In many cases a lot of the upper alliances have even further restrictions for various reasons (though often exceptions are made).

Galaxies where private packs are concerned are actually fairly unimportant, the only galaxies that actually work as an actual gal and not as a bunch of individual players are ones who got "lucky" with their placement early in the round. Please tell me how putting a newbie in a galaxy with several alliance players is likely to benefit them since oft that newbie will rarely recieve protection from inside the gal anyways (priv gals may be different since then a newbie joining a priv gal may get the chance to develop friends in there, but private packs certainly don't develop that atmosphere).

Nova

[Gerbie]

Originally Posted by Blacknova

...
Galaxies where private packs are concerned are actually fairly unimportant, the only galaxies that actually work as an actual gal and not as a bunch of individual players are ones who got "lucky" with their placement early in the round. Please tell me how putting a newbie in a galaxy with several alliance players is likely to benefit them since oft that newbie will rarely recieve protection from inside the gal anyways (priv gals may be different since then a newbie joining a priv gal may get the chance to develop friends in there, but private packs certainly don't develop that atmosphere).

Nova

The quote you refer to could have been mine - but wasn't.

Advise can be important. Just having people to talk to in a galaxy channel is important. Having a high value galaxy scares off easy roiders. People might be willing to vouch for you.

[Blacknova]

Gerbie : Just edited my post, apologies, I got the nicks mixed up

Nova