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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 20:45   #101
MrL_JaKiri
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Re: funny in a 'these people should never be listened to' kind of way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
Do you think your folder has numbers of native Americans living in North America in 1500, 1600, 1700 and 1800. I would really be interested to see those numbers.
You're not doing very well at the moment, history wise, are you?
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 21:26   #102
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Re: funny in a 'these people should never be listened to' kind of way

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
You're not doing very well at the moment, history wise, are you?
I just can't find an online reference. I have not seen anyone else post anything but their own personal beliefs. Beliefs that are at least partly if not completely wrong based on either false text books in schools or a false image created by Hollywood.

Part of the reason I have not found an online reference is because I stopped looking after about 15 minutes.

I did find one reference at MSN Encarta that indicated most of the native Americans east of the Mississippi River had been eliminated before the United States came into existence. I suspect I'm not going to find much in the way of native American populations between 1500 and 1800 because the U.S. Census Bureau was still fairly inefficient at that time.

And Americans did not have anything to do with all the native Americans who died in Canda and Mexico.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 21:58   #103
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Re: funny in a 'these people should never be listened to' kind of way

You still havent replied to my latest post(s) Texan...
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 22:48   #104
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Re: funny in a 'these people should never be listened to' kind of way

Hi there.

Just a few comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meglamaniac
I think the point is that Europe has matured a bit.
The E. U. has a much more mature and reasonable attitude than the U. S.
That is certainly a self-congratulatory piece of pap. It may have, according to the definition of some Norwegians. But I certainly don't agree with it as an assessment of reality.

G. K. Zhukov---It is true the role of Norway in the world is basicly meaningless since 1100 a. d. When we need ice cubes however we will give you a call. Pointing out the past is irrelevant unless you can demostrate a link to the present.
Why is World War I an example of American imperialism? The war had been going on for almost 3 years before the US entered it. It was a European war, started by mature European governments over European imperialism. Unless you feel that we invaded France, I am not sure what you see as imperialist in that situation. France and England had been trying to get the US involved on their side for quite some time.
Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos? You are referring to French Indochina?
Gulf War I---we should have maturely abandoned Kuwait to Iraq? Again, Norwegian moral superiority was shown unless you count the fact that Norway couldn't have defeated Iraq or even delivered an army to intervene. When you refrain from doing that which you cannot do, it may be from moral superiority or it may be just from weakness.
Gulf War II---It is unlikely that we are going to abandon our strategic interests in the area. Had Britain and France not botched the area up so badly after WWI all of this might not have been necessary. But I am sure you feel that it was botched up in a very mature manner.

All in all, I will accept a lot of criticism of the US. We have not in the past and will not in the future get it right every time. However, we will do our best by our standards. Do not expect us to look to Europe for moral leadership. Do not expect us to accept European standards. I don't expect Europe to accept American standards or to follow us blindly.

However, both sides would probably do well to actually listen to each other and try to figure a way to work together. What is going on is serious. Sitting around and blaming the US for the situation is not going to make the situation better, nor is it accurate.

Yahwe---Sorry but Europeans did kill off a lot more natives than the US.
The estimates that I have seen indicate that there were several times more natives in Mexico and Meso-America when Europeans arrived than in what is now the US. South America was also a small piece of real estate that was beset by Europeans.

Cortez was Spanish. Columbus was Italian sailing for the Spanish. The Spanish enslaved Indians and killed off a lot of them. However, the big killer of Indians were European diseases not slaughter. Did our govenment care? Not particularly. Did the Spanish, French, Portuguese or Dutch governments care? Not particularly. Certainly it isn't helpful to try and link 19th century policies to todays politics. If so, the British colonial policy isn't a prototype of enlightenment. The Norwegians were Swedes and insignifigant.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 22:59   #105
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Re: funny in a 'these people should never be listened to' kind of way

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos? You are referring to French Indochina?
you were doing pretty well there right up until domino theory (and i mean seriously, what the ****?)

When you liberated Indochina from the Japanese and stopped the French reconquest, things were pretty toasty. Ho Chi and the States were best buds in a way that we havent really seen in international politics at any other time this century.

But then, unlike most of your other ****ups, you bit them in the ass. This wasn't Saddam changing his mind, or Bin Laden changing his mind, or Noriega changing his mind; this was you, you, you, you, YOU attacking a government you'd installed.

Saying the Vietnam war wasn't American imperialism is perhaps true, but to be honest 'imperialism' sounds better than 'whimsical genocide' so I wouldn't contest that one if I were you.

But Zhukov is wrong about WWI. You were being delightfully unhelpful for years, fine. You did really extremely well out of it while the rest of the world went to hell in a handbasket, fine. You came up with and then sabotaged the League of Nations, arguably in doing so paving the way for WWII and remarkable expansion of American power, fine. But it wasn't at your instigation, it was just rather successful manipulation of a situation.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 23:17   #106
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Re: funny in a 'these people should never be listened to' kind of way

No it wasn't manipulation (WWI). America in 1914 didn't like or trust Europeans. We were isolationist. World War I was looked at, in the begining as a European war which was caused by European foolishness and that the business of America was business. We didn't ask you to start it and as I recall, no one asked our permission.

There is still some question as to why we DID get involved. There was a greater degree of opposition to WWI in this country than there is to Iraq.

The reason the League of Nations didn't pass in the US was that Americans didn't trust European governments and felt that being drawn into European politics could only cause us harm. We were isolationist. Let me repeat the key operative phrase, isolationist.

When WWII began, we were isolationist. We didn't get fully into the war until we were directly attacked. A large part of the American public is still isolationist and would like to throw the UN out of the country and pull back in upon ourselves. This isn't going to happen, probably. But stranger things have happened.
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Unread 18 Jul 2005, 23:20   #107
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Re: funny in a 'these people should never be listened to' kind of way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
But Zhukov is wrong about WWI. You were being delightfully unhelpful for years, fine. You did really extremely well out of it while the rest of the world went to hell in a handbasket, fine. You came up with and then sabotaged the League of Nations, arguably in doing so paving the way for WWII and remarkable expansion of American power, fine. But it wasn't at your instigation, it was just rather successful manipulation of a situation.
wait wait wait...

so america set up the LON just so it could fail?

you crazy fool
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Unread 19 Jul 2005, 00:20   #108
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Re: funny in a 'these people should never be listened to' kind of way

lumping europeans together is not going to cause a free and open dialogue between the sovereign nations who are siuated in the european continent and a union of american states

america going it alone hasn't ever worked. but keep on ramming your heads into a brick wall. i'm sure one day it'll break
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Unread 19 Jul 2005, 00:30   #109
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Re: funny in a 'these people should never be listened to' kind of way

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
16 years and you havent gotten it? Oh boy.

Well, over here we usually say right-wing > thinks capitalism is god-given & good, left-wing > thinks capitalism is bad & we could need something new. Someone who thinks U.S imperialism (and the genocides that occur becouse of it) is good, doesnt happen to be called "left-winged" around where I come from...

I come from Norway. Since modern times (1800>), we have been involved (or rather been used) in the war against Serbia (around 1999) and Afganistan (present). 2 whole wars, and there wasnt a bullet fired one of em! Not that our pro-US, right-winged f***** of some politicians doesnt wants us to participate in more of your imperialist wars though...

So take the U.S, just a quicky from my memory:
Killing off most of the natives
Two wars (or was it just one?) against Mexico. (grabbing New Mexico, California etc)
One against Spain (were you took their colony the Philiphines, witch is still a US colony today)
World War I (confirming your status as a great power)
The Korean War
The Vietnam War +Laos and Cambodia (I could forgive you, if you sad sorry and cleaned up the shit you left behind, but oh no)
Grenada/Panama etc
Other "Cold War Fun", including training/funding/instructing/giving arms to various dictators so they could kill their own/attack nabours etc. including Pinochet, 30.000 dead in Argentina, 2-300.000 dead in Guatemala, relocation of a couple of million kurds from the countryside into city slums to control them in Turkey, gassing of kurdish civilians, helping Saddam invade Iran, funding UNITA in Angola (and then later help the goverment when they gave your oil companies drilling rights heh).
Gulf War I (don't say it was just to free Kuwait)
Gulf War II (The Oil at last!)

I know Ive missed a few incidents (like bombing a factory in sudan making painkillers), but hey.
Uff dah.
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Unread 19 Jul 2005, 04:22   #110
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Re: funny in a 'these people should never be listened to' kind of way

Quote:
lumping europeans together is not going to cause a free and open dialogue between the sovereign nations who are siuated in the european continent and a union of american states
Noone is going to give special attention to each and every European country to see which ones have the most blood on their hands. None of us are politicians here, there is no need for this courtesy. Though, I don't see how dda discouraged free and open discussion with his choice of words...

Europe's history is hardly a bastion of peace and cooperation. Sorry. Most people are alive today only because at some time in the past the wider society in which their ancestors lived successfully waged war and killed people. That society successfully attacked or defended itself during warfare against an enemy intent on territorial defense or expansion. History books are full of civilizations and soceities that have been annihilated by their neighbours. Most people share the genes with killers and the victors of war. Your problem is with humanity Zurkov, not America.

The reason Norway hasn't been involved in many wars recently is because it's useless as a fighting force. It doesn't have much to gain from war really (approval and the favor of America maybe), and has too much to lose.
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Unread 19 Jul 2005, 05:44   #111
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Re: funny in a 'these people should never be listened to' kind of way

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Its a big difference between getting invaded and invade others. Thats why I dont count WWII for Norway, and the same with the US.
What wars have I "skipped"?
The earliest date given for a Viking raid is 787, when, according to the Anglo Saxon Chronicle, a group of men from Norway sailed to Portland, in Dorset. There, they were mistaken as merchants by a royal official, and they murdered him, when he tried to get them to accompany him to the king's manor to pay a trading tax on their goods. The next recorded attack, dated June 8, 793, was on the monastery at Lindisfarne on the east coast of England. For the next 200 years, European history is filled with tales of Vikings and their plundering.

Vikings exerted influence throughout the coastal areas of Ireland and Scotland, and conquered and colonised large parts of England (see Danelaw). They travelled up the rivers of France and Spain, and gained control of areas in Russia and along the Baltic coast. Stories tell of raids in the Mediterranean and as far east as the Caspian Sea.
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Unread 19 Jul 2005, 08:46   #112
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Re: funny in a 'these people should never be listened to' kind of way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitetrash
Your problem is with humanity Zurkov, not America.
if you quote me.

then waffle crap

then address that crap to zhukov

you are going to look like a spastic.
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Unread 19 Jul 2005, 08:52   #113
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Re: funny in a 'these people should never be listened to' kind of way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
if you quote me.

then waffle crap

then address that crap to zhukov

you are going to look like a spastic.
I doubt whitetrash has much care for the image of his/her puppet account. I wonder who it is. I'm just annoyed that the git has pinched my name.
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Unread 19 Jul 2005, 08:55   #114
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Re: funny in a 'these people should never be listened to' kind of way

truth is beauty and beauty truth
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Unread 19 Jul 2005, 16:00   #115
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Re: funny in a 'these people should never be listened to' kind of way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
The earliest date given for a Viking raid is 787, when, according to the Anglo Saxon Chronicle, a group of men from Norway sailed to Portland, in Dorset. There, they were mistaken as merchants by a royal official, and they murdered him, when he tried to get them to accompany him to the king's manor to pay a trading tax on their goods. The next recorded attack, dated June 8, 793, was on the monastery at Lindisfarne on the east coast of England. For the next 200 years, European history is filled with tales of Vikings and their plundering.
Jesus Christ man. He was specifically referring C11 -> present, and had stated, in no uncertain terms, what you are trying to argue against him with.
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Unread 19 Jul 2005, 16:07   #116
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Re: funny in a 'these people should never be listened to' kind of way

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Jesus Christ man. He was specifically referring C11 -> present, and had stated, in no uncertain terms, what you are trying to argue against him with.
I'm not sure when he was elected referee and authorized to select the exact time frame.
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Unread 19 Jul 2005, 18:15   #117
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Re: funny in a 'these people should never be listened to' kind of way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
I'm not sure when he was elected referee and authorized to select the exact time frame.
you're a bona fide cretin, you know that?
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Unread 19 Jul 2005, 18:45   #118
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Re: funny in a 'these people should never be listened to' kind of way

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Originally Posted by Phang
you're a bona fide cretin, you know that?
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 17:49   #119
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Re: funny in a 'these people should never be listened to' kind of way

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Originally Posted by Sarina_Joy
I may be wrong but were the European colonies in the Americas not pretty much confined to the east coast of America until (long) after the declartion of independance (1776) and the subsequent American victory in the war of independance(1783) . Surely *every* battle/slaughter and ethnic cleansing (to use the modern in term) prosecuted against the native population (Injuns, to use the john wayne term) could and *should* be attributed to the country/goverment/people of America.

I mean the European monarchies lost control off those people/colonies after 1776 yet the indian wars continued westwards for almost another 100 years until the Pacific ocean was reached.

Ninja.
Not exactly.
I wish I could show you this map I have, because it is very difficult to explain. If you can get your hands on "Compact Atlas of World History" by Random House you would see that even after 1783, the vast majority of North America was still under the control of European Empires. The United States purchased a huge area of central North America from France in 1803, annexed the Republic of Texas, which at that time was much larger than modern-day Texas, in 1845, and took most of the southwestern part of North America from Mexico in 1848.

More information can be found here about how the native Americans in the New World died.
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com...genous_peoples
The exact numbers will probably always be disputed, but probably somewhere in excess of 50 million native Americans died as a result of the European colonization of the New World before the United States even came into existence.

The massacres that I believe many Europeans consider to be the source of death for so many native Americans were almost inconsequential compared to the number who died during wars and from disease before the United States existed. More information about that here.
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com...ican_massacres

If you add every native American John Wayne personally killed on the big screen, you might find the numbers a bit skewed, though.
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