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Unread 14 Aug 2005, 08:21   #1
Makhil
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stoopid stealing ?

When i attack a zik with my Tzen in the hope of stealing some other races Fi, I always end up with loads of Xan Fi and little of the rest.
How does it work, why do i steal all the xan Fi first and then a little of the other races ? The purpose of stealing is to get other races ships. If i wanted Vsharrak or Pulsars, I'd just build them.
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Unread 14 Aug 2005, 10:18   #2
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Re: stoopid stealing ?

in the same way as killing works, you steal more of what there is more of
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Unread 14 Aug 2005, 10:44   #3
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Re: stoopid stealing ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
The purpose of attacking is to get roids.. If i wanted any roids, I'd just initiate them.
sounds to me that it is a silly statement you made . The purpose of stealing is not to get other ships than you can build urself, the purpose of stealing is to take ships away from the enemy and become the owner of them. If you want to get other FI, don't defend/attack against Xan FI?
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Unread 14 Aug 2005, 11:25   #4
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Re: stoopid stealing ?

xan armour is low so your more likey to cap more of the xans ships anyway.
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Unread 14 Aug 2005, 12:22   #5
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Re: stoopid stealing ?

Don't complain about free ships
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Unread 14 Aug 2005, 15:10   #6
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Re: stoopid stealing ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
sounds to me that it is a silly statement you made . The purpose of stealing is not to get other ships than you can build urself, the purpose of stealing is to take ships away from the enemy and become the owner of them. If you want to get other FI, don't defend/attack against Xan FI?
you're the silly guy here, to compare ship and roid, for one simple reason i'll try to explain :
ship cost is constant, roid cost get more and more expensive.

Kal I understand i'll get more of certain Fi depending on their amount, but i don't get why i get all of xan before to get any of the rest.
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Unread 14 Aug 2005, 15:32   #7
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Re: stoopid stealing ?

I made the earlier quote to show you it is 'BS' to say stealing is stupid because you can steal your own race ships. The ships you steal depend on the target his fleet, and if you can steal FI, you will steal whatever FI the target planet has. Plain simple.

You don't seem to understand how a combat works.. so let me explain.

If you have 1000 harpies and 1000 pulsars you can target and you sent say 200 tzens, these would deal a total off 5800 damage points to FI. Ships are target by amount present. This means 50% of the damage is dealt to the harpies and 50% of the damage is dealt to the pulsars. The difference kicks in with the target ship its armour. The harpy has 15 armour and the Pulsar has only 3 armour. In effect this means you steal ~193 Harpies and ~966 Pulsars. In short, whenever present, you will steal more Xan FI simply because they have weaker armour than the FI of other races and will thus 'die' in higher numbers.

[edit]I am not 100% sure if target damage in combat is decided on total damage dealt or decided by the amount of ships that will do the damage. But in either case the outcome in this example would be the same[/edit]
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Unread 23 Aug 2005, 11:45   #8
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Re: stoopid stealing ?

ah i think you might have missed something (if is still exists in PA, though I doubt it) is dynamic targetting.

[edit: this taken me about two hours to put together and could still take 10 times as long to finish]

Quote:
If you have 1000 harpies and 1000 pulsars you can target and you sent say 200 tzens, these would deal a total off 5800 damage

points to FI. Ships are target by amount present. This means 50% of the damage is dealt to the harpies and 50% of the damage is

dealt to the pulsars. The difference kicks in with the target ship its armour. The harpy has 15 armour and the Pulsar has only 3

armour. In effect this means you steal ~193 Harpies and ~966 Pulsars.
Now the way it used to work was recalcing the damage percentage after an individual ship is captured/died. That way when you

captured your first FI, you had more chance of capturing other fighters (because there are more to shoot at).

Example (from the quote)

If you have 1000 harpies and 1000 pulsars you can target and you sent say 200 tzens, these deal a total of 5800 damage points to FI

This is distributed 50% to the harpies and 50% to the pulsars, you would steal a pulsar before stealing a harpy, now is the

interesting part. The damage distributed is now recalculated, but here is a quick run down of combat

Harpys = 1000
Pulsars = 999 (note: 1's been captured in previous combat)

=== Step 1 - Total quantity of all ships of targetted class ===
note: "Pseudo" is just a basic way to put complicated items into easy to read state.
===============================================================

Pseudo -> "Ship 1 Quantity" + "Ship 2 Quantity" + "Ship 3 Quantity" + etc.... = Total_Units_Targetted
Formula -> 1000 + 999 = 1999

=== Step 2 - Calculate Distributed Damage Precentage ===
Now cycle through each ship of the targetted class , and calc the distributed percentage.
========================================================

Harpys
------
Psuedo -> (Targetted Quantity/Total Units Targetted) = Percentage of ship type in fleet
Formula -> (1000/1999) = 0.50025 (50.03% rounded to 2dp)

Harpy_Targetted_Chance
(in real value) = 0.50025
(in rercentage) = 50.03%

Pulsars
-------
Psuedo -> (Targetted Quantity/Total Units Targetted) = Percentage of ship type in fleet
Formula -> (999/1999) = 0.49974 (49.97% rounded to 2dp)

Pulsar_Targetted_Chance
(in real value) = 0.49974
(in rercentage) = 49.97%

=== Step 3 - Create hitchance matrix ===
This section calcs the chance of hitting
========================================

shipmatrix['harpy'] = Harpy_Targetted_chance*100
shipmatrix['pulsar'] = shipmatrix['harpy'] + (Pulsar_Targetted_Chance*100)

Right this will create a list of all targets chances up to 100

=== Step 3 - Cycle shots ===
this main loop for each shot and tries to target the ships using the ships hitchance
============================

Code:
while (attacker_shots is above 0)and(Total_Units_Targetted above 0)
{
  shot_hitchance = random(10000)/100 (this will produce a 2dp random number i.e 59.43 its more accurate this way)

  defender_ship = findship in defender where ship_hitchance is shot_hitchance

  attacker_shots - 1
    
  if ship_hit (agility vs weaponspeed calc)
  {
    remove attacker_damage from defender_ship_armour

    if ship_armour below 1
    {
      defender_ship - 1
      recalc distribution (step 1 & 2) then begin loop
    }
  }
}
===============
=== Summary ===
===============

right a summary

So when a shot tries to target, it generates a number between 0 and 100. This then compares to the ship matrix, and finds which unit is in target.

i.e. generated number is 59.43
the harpy has a chance of getting hit of 0 - 50.03
the pulsar has a chance of getting hit of 50.04 - 100 (50.03+49.97)

so the pulsar is fired at (but still has to do the agility vs weapon_speed calc)
but the harpy is more likely to get hit

now this way has 2 problems, 1) its very slow, 2) its very complicated. but this has the benefit of being a good real world

representation of combat.

btw this is not in anyway complete, but should give you an idea, and before you say it does give different results at the end.
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Unread 23 Aug 2005, 12:45   #9
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Re: stoopid stealing ?

looking at a few BR's i think they just use the number of ships at the start of combat, would also make the ticks alot slower if they had to make those long calculations id have thought.
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Unread 23 Aug 2005, 13:41   #10
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Re: stoopid stealing ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster
btw this is not in anyway complete, but should give you an idea, and before you say it does give different results at the end.
I am sorry to say this, but Planetarion no longer uses dynamic targeting - indeed, what you said initially in your quote is correct. So you've just wasted an hour or two in that detailed (and afaik correct ) calculation .

Ie, Makhil, you get more Xan ships because they have less armour, though having a greater quanity of them pushes the bias even further towards Xan ships (just like the pod/SKs avoiding fire quirk of the combat engine - though in reverse obviously).

I did the math in a thread somewhere on the strategy forum. If you are really interested, i'll have a look for you, otherwise the above should be sufficient .
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Unread 23 Aug 2005, 16:54   #11
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Re: stoopid stealing ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
I am sorry to say this, but Planetarion no longer uses dynamic targeting - indeed, what you said initially in your quote is correct. So you've just wasted an hour or two in that detailed (and afaik correct ) calculation .
Thats ok, I had forgot how it worked and needed to figure it out again, anyway my paol one is even harder to figure out, even though i programmed it. It was very late, with lots of caffine fueled tea, cant remember a damn thing about it!

btw These is a partial dynamic system i.e when all of a type of ship is destroyed (not just a single ship), recalc the percetages, that would be faster.
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Unread 23 Aug 2005, 21:23   #12
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Re: stoopid stealing ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
When i attack a zik with my Tzen in the hope of stealing some other races Fi, I always end up with loads of Xan Fi and little of the rest.
The same happens to me very frequently! is this the same for everyone else?
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 12:59   #13
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Re: stoopid stealing ?

Of all stealing ships for non-ziks in this game, Tzen are the most useless. I'd rather have a kill ship tbh.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 13:14   #14
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Re: stoopid stealing ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
Of all stealing ships for non-ziks in this game, Tzen are the most useless. I'd rather have a kill ship tbh.
I like the ability to add spiders and/or corsair to my fi fleet, helps it out nicely

the tzens armour aint bad for a xan either, just the damage isnt too good
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 03:49   #15
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Re: stoopid stealing ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster
btw These is a partial dynamic system i.e when all of a type of ship is destroyed (not just a single ship), recalc the percetages, that would be faster.
Umm, PA doesnt us a 'partial dynamic system' atm either - if all of a type are destroyed, the leftover damage is 'lost', and is NOT re-distributed to other types.

Its that quirk that makes Pods more survivable (and SK's too, sadly :\).
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 08:23   #16
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Re: stoopid stealing ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Umm, PA doesnt us a 'partial dynamic system' atm either - if all of a type are destroyed, the leftover damage is 'lost', and is NOT re-distributed to other types.

Its that quirk that makes Pods more survivable (and SK's too, sadly :\).
Sorry I did forget to clarify that there exists (in theory) a partial dynamic system, but it is not in PA (and never has been).

I am shocked to learn that you lose all the shots that miss, thats messy. But then again, your way works because of the units single primary target. As there is no other targets to look for it losses the shots.

I am still got the old combat style in my head (each ship could have 3 targets), i prefer the old way.


Damn that PaX its become too simple.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 11:47   #17
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Re: stoopid stealing ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stifler
I like the ability to add spiders and/or corsair to my fi fleet, helps it out nicely

the tzens armour aint bad for a xan either, just the damage isnt too good
I've been trying to add spiders for a long time now, ****ing caths keep running their fleet
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 11:57   #18
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Re: stoopid stealing ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
I've been trying to add spiders for a long time now, ****ing caths keep running their fleet
I got lucky early on

but now they keep running them tried twice at a certain cath with 10k spiders but he just gets defence, you know who you are!
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 12:33   #19
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Re: stoopid stealing ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster
because of the units single primary target. As there is no other targets to look for it losses the shots.
That's again not quite how it works either . Its true, there is only one target Class, but there can be numerous Types of ship in a certain target class.

Say you had an attacking ship that has 10000 damage to deal, firing on 4 types of enemy ship in the same class. The combat engine works like this:

1000 Spiders
1000 Vsh
500 Daggers
500 Harpies

Damage is distributed like:

(1000/3000)*10000 on Spiders (ie, as Spiders make up 1/3 of the fleet by numbers)
(1000/3000)*10000 on Vsh
(500/3000)*10000 on Daggers
(500/3000)*10000 on Harpies

Then the damage is compared to each ship's armour. ie:

((1000/3000)*10000)/9 = 370 Spiders destroyed
((1000/3000)*10000)/3 = 1111 Vsh destroyed
((500/3000)*10000)/4 = 416 Daggers destroyed
((500/3000)*10000)/15 = 111 Harpies destroyed

But, lets say that there were only 100 Harpies in the battle, the proportion of fire will still remain the same - just the 111 will be truncated down to 100. No additional damage will be dealt to any other type in that class, nor any other class of ship.

The above example also clearly demonstrates why you steal more Xan ships - read 'destroyed' as 'stolen' when a stealer is firing.

Quote:
Damn that PaX its become too simple.
I (now) prefer the 1 target / 6 class system over the 3 target / 6 class system, as it means there are more gaps in you enemy's fleet to exploit, there are less 'super def ships' that you need to spam (like Spiders in R4 ), and there is far more leeway in fleet design and composition.

Though, my own pet project is a 2 target 10 class system (with each race not necessarily having a type in each class) as that amplifies the importance of fleet composition and should make attacking easier (for everyone).

But that;s another story.
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Unread 27 Aug 2005, 16:04   #20
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Re: stoopid stealing ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster
because of the units single target. As there is no other targets to look for it losses the shots.
Ok, i am quoting my self and then correcting it. i should have said "primary class" not "primary target" I forgot i should have been more specific in front of the Mr Newbie

I would like to see your stats for the 10 class system, and maybe put them in my battle simulator .
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<Kila> WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH MY PRECIOUS FORUMS
<Zeyi> 24h forum closure
<Zeyi> all posts recalled

"he's got a proven track record when it comes to showy art composition" - Tommy

<Sigi> Light: can I ask u how many open internet-windows u always have?
<MrLobster|PM> i have 2, the pa page, and the website for naked light pictures
<Ave> both has bad gfx
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