the NEW exeption system!

[Kal]

Originally Posted by wakey

I wonder which poster whos name begins with W is a forum mod

Oh and once again things are changing ffs, Its putting artifical limits that block actions that are deemed interaction by the code but which a human being wouldnt consider interaction because its clearly not connected to the others actions. As I said on IRC is it fair if we are allowed 2 interactions a day on scanning which accedently get used up scanning for targets and then we find we get attacked by someone from a galaxy the other person on the IP has scanned and we dont have an interaction slot left. I mean you wouldnt delete the person for those innocent interactions but the system considers them guilty

thats not how the exceptions system works. the same galaxy stuff is related to attacking - as its related to gains.

e.g. if person a is hitting person in galaxy X and person b then scans the person in galaxy X that is interaction as they are helping person a gain score.

to quote the config page for admins:

Originally Posted by gameconfig

The 'Same Galaxy' and 'Same Planet' exceptions refer to user1 attacking the Same Galaxy as user2 or the Same Planet as user2 respectively.

so all of the same planet and same gfalaxy limits for scanning and covert ops are specifc interactions related to attacking - and hence specific gain.

[Kal]

Originally Posted by kamikaze69

ok xontas, you wanna see a fresh new face with a genuine opinion of the system??? Try this on for size.

With the discussion of the removal of the pre-launch system, I forsee that there will be people in alliances made up ONLY from one timezone, and if it gets a thumbs up, I forsee alliance of schools, small businesses and local gaming groups that will complain about your proposed system because they will ALL need to apply for an exemption (the proper naming convention for all your qwerty ppl) and if so much as 1 person forgets their entire alliance is DELETED!!!

In my opinion that is BS. Hows that for an opinion???

pre launch is not going to be removed.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Kal

thats not how the exceptions system works. the same galaxy stuff is related to attacking - as its related to gains.

e.g. if person a is hitting person in galaxy X and person b then scans the person in galaxy X that is interaction as they are helping person a gain score.

to quote the config page for admins:


so all of the same planet and same gfalaxy limits for scanning and covert ops are specifc interactions related to attacking - and hence specific gain.

If that is the case then it improves the system a bit, however at no point in this post does it state this or at no point has xontas stated this to anyone so its hard to know who to believe. Either way perhaps before PATeam post things like this they should make sure they know what they are talking about and make sure its comunicated properly because in this situation xontas has done alot of damage some of which is clearly down to his lack of communication skills which could have been avoided.

[Kal]

Originally Posted by wakey

If that is the case then it improves the system a bit, however at no point in this post does it state this or at no point has xontas stated this to anyone so its hard to know who to believe. Either way perhaps before PATeam post things like this they should make sure they know what they are talking about and make sure its comunicated properly because in this situation xontas has done alot of damage some of which is clearly down to his lack of communication skills which could have been avoided.

Unfortunatly I have been working recently otherwise I would have caught this earlier.

Myself and ph8 designed this though, so i'd hope I know how it works.

Judging from the complaints in this thread i'd have thought it exponentially improves the exception system, as people can in effect have unlimited scans with the softer settings and they are only restricted when it comes to situations where assiting with score gain could occur.

As xontas said - in previous rounds strictly speaking no interaction was allowed at all, but limited amounts were overlooked. At least with this system the genuine people on same IPs can play without the risk of being wrongly closed.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Kal

Unfortunatly I have been working recently otherwise I would have caught this earlier.

Myself and ph8 designed this though, so i'd hope I know how it works.

Judging from the complaints in this thread i'd have thought it exponentially improves the exception system, as people can in effect have unlimited scans with the softer settings and they are only restricted when it comes to situations where assiting with score gain could occur.

As xontas said - in previous rounds strictly speaking no interaction was allowed at all, but limited amounts were overlooked. At least with this system the genuine people on same IPs can play without the risk of being wrongly closed.

Can you post a complete explanation of how each trigger works please kal , like the first post but better

[Judge]

I have decided to apply for an exception from every planet in the universe.

Problem solved

[Zo0f]

Originally Posted by xontas

you state that no serious multi runs his planets from the same ip
thats not true
we had 400 cases of muli's on the same ip
and there where some mighty big ones there!

Perhaps that is because it is not reasonable to ask people not to play together and new players would not expect to be banned from playing a game with their house/work mates?

All you do is succeed in catching the stupid cheats and deleting real friends. Not the people that really damage the game. Leaving the organised cheaters, who are too clever for you to catch, to effect the game in a far bigger way. Lets face it, it is easy to cheat in Planetarion without being caught. This system simply offers protection for people that want it.

The reaction you have got, in my opinion, is because it is so obvious how ineffective, out of touch and what a waste of time this system is. A lot of new players get brought into the game by their work friends/house mates, how many games have you played where you cannot interact much or at all with the people you joined with? How fun is a game where you cannot interact with the only people you know? Would you play such a game? The answer for most people is no.

While I am sincerely sure you have the best of intentions xontas, as with all PATeam, you do seem a little distant and out of touch. You spend your time running Planetarion, while players spend their time knowing Planetarion inside-out (some anyway). While what you do gives you a unique view of Planetarion, you also lose the depth and understanding playing Planetarion all day every day gives.

Where am I going with this? Even I like to be constructive on occasion so here goes. While I dont have the time anymore to go into a great deal of depth, im sure others could if they liked the sound of it. I would like to see a player council, of very active/experienced/successful, players who know the game inside-out and are willing to share their views. Im not sure if that exists or had existed. I know you have a HC/PATeam channel, but HC have other responsabilities just like PATeam do.

(note: While this system is deadly simple, really not something that needs to be talked about and good for the game there are far more important things that you could of spent your time effecting. In the end, good work with the system, but getting new players in is what will make Planetarion a success not this. Also, with some player help and effort this could of been displayed in a far cleaner and more successful manner.)

[xontas]

i have played the game from R1 so i think i know how it works and what does what
i have a diferent view because know HOW people cheat
its kinda obvious if you have tools and look @ what people do

the hard part is proving it, but we see almost everything (yes we are not all knowing)

as far as i am aware no-one stayed closed that played from the same ip if they where actualy 2 people and the people that did get closed did 1) have no exception 2) break there exception by interacting!
(interaction will keep you closed ofc, because that is cheating accourding to the rules)

i call that inforcing the rules, and the rules of this game are not the discussion, its how we inforce them

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Judge

I have decided to apply for an exception from every planet in the universe.

Problem solved

its gonna take you a while to type in all thoose user ids u know...

[Judge]

Originally Posted by Kal

its gonna take you a while to type in all thoose user ids u know...

indeed it will, but it offers a protection from attack, as anyone on my exception list will be closed for interacting with me.

:-)

[Phil^]

along with you, you realise.

plus iirc each planet has to also agree to the exception, and a final ok from an admin

[Judge]

Originally Posted by Phil^

along with you, you realise.

plus iirc each planet has to also agree to the exception, and a final ok from an admin

dang!

another cunning plan goes up in smoke

[Jester]

Originally Posted by xontas

i have played the game from R1 so i think i know how it works and what does what

Or perhaps you're just definite proof that having played from round 1 doesn't guarantee knowledge of that...

[xontas]

jester, the fact that you think i am wrong doesnt make it so
i did say that i might be, thats why we will look at the exception system all true the round
and when it does cause conflicts we will make changes

but for now we have a system that we think will work well
if you think we should alowe more you are saying we should alowe a limited amount of cheating
thats a discussion about the rules of the game, and i am always open for suggestions on that, but its not the topic of this tread

yes you can start of a new tread to start that discussion, but the rules are not set by populair opinion
but PAteam is always open for suggestions

[Neferti]

Originally Posted by xontas

well, i do have a whiteboard @ my house with some ip''s and some names on it :-)
but sharing that list is a no-no :-)
tho i love the guy that signs up every round with 4 accounts having the exact same details (account1, account2 and so on)
and when he gets closed (4 rounds in a row now) he claims its his 3 brothes!

Someone actually does that? The same guy?

Surely he must be just taking the piss... nobody can be that stupid

[xontas]

if it was just one i would consider the argument
they dont realy hurt the game that much

but from what i see they do hurt the game and they hurt it much!
4 accounts playing as one that make it close to the top 100 can take out almost anyone
if they are played by 1 person that knows his PA stuff they do get very harmfull

yes you do have people that just have 2 or 3 planets and dont do all that much
they dont get our attention @ first
as said before we look for gain!
the more gain you get from cheating the bigger the spotlight on your head!

but that doesnt mean we dont mobb up those small cheats aswell :-)

[bintara]

Originally Posted by DeadMan

How will this system work with buddypacks?
If im in the same gal as my room mate, can't i defend him at all?
Isn't it normal for friends to attack same planet, wave eachother etc. ?

This system will ruin the round for me as i don't have internet at home this summer/fall.
I'm gonna be playing from my own computer but via his connection at his house.

If I understrand this correct I will not be able to play with him at all, so why should I bother playing PA if I can't interact with my friends only becasue we're playing from same IP?

Gotta add that I often don't get this right cos it's not explained good at all. But PA-team never has been good at explaining things.

i want this answer ? this beta game .. me and meh mates r same gal and alliance

option 1 ofc

[xontas]

if you play from the same ip and attack the same targets, no-one can tell if you are playing all accounts on your ip or that there are a bunch of people playing on there!

as this is the thing multi accounts do to gain from there cheating, we dont alowe any interaction between same location accounts!
the new system provides for 2 things
1) you can do a limited amount of interaction (where on the old system you could do none)
2) you cant go over the limits by accident!, if you reach the limit your attack gets blocked and you cant cheat
so no risk of closure!

if you want to play from the same gal or alliance, you can ofc do that
we just dont recomend it because we wont relax the rules for those who do
being in the same gal and alliance means that you will be limited in what you can do by the actions of the other planets on your exception.

[Judge]

Originally Posted by xontas

if you play from the same ip and attack the same targets, no-one can tell if you are playing all accounts on your ip or that there are a bunch of people playing on there!

as this is the thing multi accounts do to gain from there cheating, we dont alowe any interaction between same location accounts!
the new system provides for 2 things
1) you can do a limited amount of interaction (where on the old system you could do none)
2) you cant go over the limits by accident!, if you reach the limit your attack gets blocked and you cant cheat
so no risk of closure!

if you want to play from the same gal or alliance, you can ofc do that
we just dont recomend it because we wont relax the rules for those who do
being in the same gal and alliance means that you will be limited in what you can do by the actions of the other planets on your exception.

You have repeatedly made this point, and it is fair and reasonable.

However you have singularly failed to answer the question that if a player located within a large school/college/work place, happens to play PA as well as some other(s) he does not know about, how can he apply for an exception, or even be aware of the others and what they are doing ?

[biffy]

As I understand it they would get suspended when their interaction is found. The MH team would subsequently listen to the users explanation about it. I believe you can be added to the exception system at any time, so if it was determined to be, like you suggest, innocent interaction then the planets could be added and players would be able to resume their game.

[Squidly]

Err... I'm not entirely sure I like this now...

I'm currently in a college for computer science... I need to get suspended because I don't have time to ask 1500 people in this college if they play planetarion? =/

Hrm. well, fortunately, the likelihood of me interacting with them is rather small...

suggestion: if an interaction is made, can a little warning show up on the PA page or in our mail or something saying "You made an interaction with personage. You have been warned"

etc?


Please?

[xontas]

if the ip doesnt show as a school ip yes you would get closed and we would have to follow the proces.

but we usualy DO see the schools on our system , they have special lines and we take that into account (doesnt mean that if you play 4 accounts from school you wont get closed)

basicly for you to get closed by interacting with a random user on your school you,
1) have to interact more then normal for a normal account (can happen by change)
2) your school uses a normal asdl line and not the normal dedicated line for large use (almost all schools have that)

so , to be save mail me ingame with the details (we still have the old system running next to the new one) and just play the game

remember, our goals is not to close as many as we can
we just want to take out the cheats :-)

[Squidly]

k

[Jonah]

Ummm....ok. where to start? Could you not force people on the same ip to prove they are two people? I have an email address that is mine with my name from my uni. No one else can access this except me. Also my brother has an email address from his uni with his name proving we are two totally different people. So why can we not use this as proof we are not cheating and be allowed to play together? Unless you reckon I can register at my brothers uni and use his name to get me and email address????
Then you get my connection and put it on a SAFE list instead of looking for a cheating list put those of us who can prove we are two people on a safe list making sure we don't get caught out. Most schools, offices, unis etc will provide a user specific id which will be the prefix of their email. This will allow people who claim to be using a uni/work/school connection to prove it! So just don't allow any free email address signups from the same ip? Or use the exception system for people who can't prove they're different? OMG A BRAINWAVE!
Also why can't someone attack planets in the same galaxy as their friend from the same ip? What's the difference? Ok not the same planet but come on not the same galaxy is BS and over the top!
Next you'll stop all the alliance players attacking the same planet cos they can use irc to be the equivalent of multiplayers!
Just think about how many people play this game with their friends. (nice advice to not join the same alliance as your friends btw. ABSOLUTE GENIUS! why do you think people play?!?!?!?!)
Talk about going over the top with the protection. I see what you guys are trying to do but you're being too god damn harsh cos it is possible to prove that you're two people and not one. Otherwise how can you claim that two people have be let off before when they've been accused of cheating? Just please think about what you're doing before you ruin the game!
Another point: I pay to play! I use my debit card which has my name on it! My brother uses his credit card with his name on it! Again another item to prove we're not the same person.

[Ramihyn]

Originally Posted by Jonah

I have an email address that is mine with my name from my uni. No one else can access this except me. Also my brother has an email address from his uni with his name proving we are two totally different people. So why can we not use this as proof we are not cheating and be allowed to play together?

At my old university it wasnt a problem to have several different email-addies. In fact it was quite common for some people who where active in different university parts and projects.

Even if it really "proved" that you and your brother are two different people with two accounts - thats not the point as it doesnt prove that you both play or just one of you multis with both email addies.

Originally Posted by Jonah

Another point: I pay to play! I use my debit card which has my name on it! My brother uses his credit card with his name on it! Again another item to prove we're not the same person.

CreditCard Validation rules would be complicated to use ... too many legally have to use the CC of somebody else to play. I personally used two different peoples CC on my PA planets but never my own cards (of which i have more then one anyway).

And because "we" (im talking here as kind of a "official" from the evil cheating empire knew that CC info could be primary data for finding our multi planets, we made sure that none of the planets a individual controlled was payed for by the same CC. Oh and for another brilliant idea - none of my planets ever had a naming pattern in their user or password *rolleyes*

[xontas]

even if you can prove that the accounts where created by 2 different people, how would you prove they both actualy play
lots of guys claim there dad also plays, how do we know this is true!
sure they have a dad, but i have no way of knowing who is actualy playing

[Jonah]

That would be truely synical of you all tbh. Plus look at the activity of the accounts. My brother is away this weekend and if you looked no activity is occuring on his account at least not from this ip. Also you would notice that we're both signed in at the same time. I assume you can't sign in twice on the same computer? I can't try as I don't have his PA account details, but I would have thought it would be done so you can't. If one is active then as soon as one signs out the other signs in then there is blantantly only one person playing. If you notice this at anytime you can always accuse us of cheating then but why should I be restricted in a game I've paid to play just cause me and my brother want to play together? It's a bit like Steam saying I can't play counterstrike from the same IP because I might be able to cheat. They have to give people the benefit of the doubt, and yes people do cheat but then they are removed not before.
P.S. You haven't answered why I shouldn't be able to attack a planet in the same galaxy as my brother. This may stop them sending defence but tbh my whole alliance would probably sending ships too so why shouldn't I help out? I understand you don't want one person getting loads of accounts and roiding anyone they want but at least be reasonable.

[xontas]

sorry, we dont alowe it
i understand the argument, but that would leave the door open for all the cheats
the benefit of the doubt would be used just for that!

thats why we dont alowe same ip interaction except on a exception!

[Ramihyn]

Originally Posted by Jonah

That would be truely synical of you all tbh.

Come on - its not even as if a person would need real access to the second email account. In fact it is only once or twice that the other person would need to forward a mail.

Originally Posted by Jonah

Plus look at the activity of the accounts. My brother is away this weekend and if you looked no activity is occuring on his account at least not from this ip. Also you would notice that we're both signed in at the same time. I assume you can't sign in twice on the same computer?

Sure you can - can easily control 8 (or more) planets manually from the same computer.

Judging after login/logout and "activity" is troublesome. I remember that some MHs (in the past) accused combat groups of beeing multies because they launched at the exact same time while that is just "normal" for a very organised group using IRC or even teamspeak/ventrilo.

Originally Posted by Jonah

If one is active then as soon as one signs out the other signs in then there is blantantly only one person playing. If you notice this at anytime you can always accuse us of cheating then but why should I be restricted in a game I've paid to play just cause me and my brother want to play together?

This login/logout scheme isnt how multis control planets from my experience. You seem to assume that "one computer -> one browser -> one planetarion instance"

Originally Posted by Jonah

P.S. You haven't answered why I shouldn't be able to attack a planet in the same galaxy as my brother. This may stop them sending defence but tbh my whole alliance would probably sending ships too so why shouldn't I help out?

The more planets you have, the fewer people you need to play with to achieve the same thing.

[wakey]

Xontas I have one really major Flaw for the exception system which I've had to deal with twice today already. That is that people are assuming an exception lets them account share, luckly in both cases today both have mentioned their intentions to do so before doing it and have been able to explain that having an exception doesnt allow that to be done but fit seems for green players this simply isnt made clear enough.

I would like to see something done to clarify this, for example a motd message and maybe an addition on a big red warning about it when you apply for an exception as you are leading players into cheating whom havent got any desire to intentionally cheat

[bintara]

Stupid Exception
Fleet 1: You cannot cooperate with other planets in your exception (limit reached). Orders cancelled. [7]

Fleet 1: New mission ordered.
Fleet 3: You cannot cooperate with other planets in your exception (limit reached). Orders cancelled. [7]

duhh .. wtf this mean . i cant even def my own galmates .... pa team said it was a bug but they fixed it .. really ???

i send 2 def ingal .. 1 recall and i resend def to others .. but they limited me ?? why ??

[12:48] <B|nTaRa> fixed it
[12:48] <B|nTaRa> or delete it
[12:48] <Phil^> im not pateam, so cant do either
[12:48] <Phil^> and if this was the previous round i remind you, without this system you'd have been running a fine line for being closed interaction back then was strictly forbidden
[12:49] <B|nTaRa> what interaction ?
[12:49] <B|nTaRa> my exception mate is in another gal
[12:49] <Phil^> defending ingal with planets in same gal
[12:49] <B|nTaRa> im sending def to my galmates
[12:49] <Phil^> aah its a differnet gal hes in
[12:49] <B|nTaRa> while im in malaysia
[12:49] <Phil^> hm then that is a bug
[12:49] <Phil^> ( you should be more clear in that post btw )
[12:49] <B|nTaRa> my galmates in italy and norway

[12:51] <B|nTaRa>
[12:52] <Phil^> your friend with who you have an exception, he isnt defending or attacking the gal mate in question is he?
[12:53] <B|nTaRa> nope
[12:53] <B|nTaRa> he`s offline atm

[12:54] <Anarchy> wtf are 'exceptions'?
[12:54] <Anarchy> and from looking at that thread, the word was used completely wrong
[12:55] <Phil^> they're hard-coded limits built into the game which define what people on the same ip can and cannot do
[12:55] <Phil^> people on the same ip without one get closed quite quickly
[12:56] <Phil^> they work between the planets who sign up for one, and each has a special id to identify it
[12:56] <Phil^> how on earth the thing isnt working right - i have no idea. it should be very simple. if planet exception ids match and limits are reached - reject order
[12:56] <Phil^> else accept
[12:56] <Phil^> since he isnt interacting with the other planet on the exception it shouldnt be triggering
[12:57] <B|nTaRa> yup
[12:57] <Phil^> unless his friend has a prelaunched fleet going there, thats the only thing i can think of
[12:57] <B|nTaRa> thats the main problem ph8
[12:57] <Anarchy> ah ok then
[12:57] <B|nTaRa> nope
[12:57] <Phil^> other then that - theres no reason for it
[12:57] <B|nTaRa> i can guarantee my mate not even prelaunch


now PA team .. expain to me why i cant def my own galmates !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Last edited by bintara : 9 Aug 2005 at 13:01.

[coffee-]

At this point and time in PA when for the most part we'll only be losing players, I think some of the current restrictions will just hurt the game in the long run. I also am disheartened by PA which is a community based game being so paranoid about multi-accounts. Of course they will occur, but at the moment I think emphasis should be put on to the community recruiting fresh blood into the game. This would not be done by ads, or flyers, but by the players themselves finding interested candidates and training teaching them the ropes of the game. The new players will not likely find much to enjoy if they are not able to play along with their trainer on attacks and on defence.

I know, for instance, F-Crew was started out of a university (I do believe) and they could not of been successful with the current state of multi-hunters. I know xontas will reply saying that special exceptions are made for university campus' and such, however, to be quite frank I think this is unfair to many others who are not given the same benefit of the doubt. So, for the sake of PA I think PA Team may want to look at ways to revitalize the game, rather then stagnating by limiting current new players from playing with their mates. Possible exception system could be in place for people that have "assigned" themselves a noob to help train, where they would be able to attack/defend. Once the noob has reached a certain value or score, restrictions could start to be placed in effect...