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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 16:55   #101
Neferti
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

As other people said, this system doesnt seem to take into account the concept of 'Coincidence'

Am I wrong?
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 17:02   #102
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neferti
As other people said, this system doesnt seem to take into account the concept of 'Coincidence'

Am I wrong?
yes, you do get some interaction if you have a exception and after that the system wont alowe anymore
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 17:49   #103
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

well you're not going to get much better than £1.25 for a pint in any uk bar hehe. i might have to consider two beers if i want anything decent here, stella maybe

i think Neferti is talking about your Galaxy rules and restrictions xontas. like when you can't defend alliancemates in a galaxy you have an exception with.

btw, what happens with prelaunches, do they count as actual launches? and the fact that most attackers re-call resend all night for fun, and as far as i can tell any friends within an exception group can only send 1-2 times to defend each other in a week let alone in a night? are the rules above for sending attacks and defences, or landing them?
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 17:58   #104
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
well you're not going to get much better than £1.25 for a pint in any uk bar hehe. i might have to consider two beers if i want anything decent here, stella maybe

i think Neferti is talking about your Galaxy rules and restrictions xontas. like when you can't defend alliancemates in a galaxy you have an exception with.

btw, what happens with prelaunches, do they count as actual launches? and the fact that most attackers re-call resend all night for fun, and as far as i can tell any friends within an exception group can only send 1-2 times to defend each other in a week let alone in a night? are the rules above for sending attacks and defences, or landing them?
prelauchs should give you the error message @ ones
so you wont be able to set it

interactions between accounts are NOT alowed atm
so that galmate you need a exception with (same ip) cant be defended at all with the old system
only thing we are doing is hardcoding those things that are not alowed anyway and giving you a bit of room to manuvere

yes if you have a exception with someone on the same ip, it would be very bad to be in the same gal and alliance
this is not a side effect, its the desired effect

lots of people used that excuse last round
i got closed for interaction
yes i interacted, but my mate/gf/dad/brother/sister was under attack and surely your rules dont aply then

yes they do

and getting closed for it was right
you saw the rules @ signup (EULA) and you got a exeption last round, but you chose to get in the same alliance that now ordered you to interact
and in doing so break the rules!!!

we dont want to be harsh about it but clearly the 400+ people we had to remove for cheating prove we need a system like this to insure normal play
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 18:00   #105
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

normal play, what is normal play

i looked @ random planets from all over the uni that where clearly not related
and compaired there results when i used the tools on them
i found 1 maby 2 interactions per week
scanning a bit more sometimes but it was rare!

so its not just grabed out the air
its based on R14 interaction level of none cheating planets
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 18:07   #106
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Quote:
Originally Posted by xontas
yes if you have a exception with someone on the same ip, it would be very bad to be in the same gal and alliance
this is not a side effect, its the desired effect
So you desire that I don't play with my flatmates.

That makes me desire to not play.
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 18:18   #107
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

can you tell me how i can tell your flatmates and you from just you playing 3 accounts

if you can i will be happy to alowe it
but it cant be proven
yes you can prove you have flatmates
but can you prove they realy play the accounts

and before you call me paranoid
i have some e-mails where i get picture of drivers liciences
where people say the other account is there dad's

you can all play and anywhere in the universe (even in the same gal, but i dont recomend it because) but you can not interact!
so i suggest you all find your own alliance and your own gal
that is alowed and doesnt risk you getting closed!

also the same for many rounds!
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 18:19   #108
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Just to clarify, surely you can defend you're own galaxy (as a whole) more than a couple times a week if an exception player's in it? Or is that what you don't want?

That's what I don't understand, these ridiculous galaxy rules.
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 18:27   #109
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

we dont want interaction between same ip accounts
not even in the same gal

being multi with 3 accounts in one gal and the freedom to defend 1 account with the other 2
that would be nice (for the multi''s)

so no, lets not alowe that shall we
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 18:37   #110
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Defend Same Galaxy Limit:
How many times you may defend 2 different planets in the same gal with other accounts from your exeption

What exactly do you mean by that, and why exactly will that rule be in place? What's it's objective? That's what's confusing me i think :\
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 19:49   #111
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Your missing his point xontas. Hes saying that you apply for an exception and then end up in the same galaxy either intentionally or by coincedent. You are now unable to defend anyone in the galaxy more than a couple of times a day even if its not the the other planet your defending.

Just like its also the case if your in two differnt galaxies, you probally wont be able to defend alliance mates who end up being in the other persons galaxy. This means your actually punishing every player in the game by denying an action thats clearly not cheating and which you wouldnt even consider closing a planet for
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 19:52   #112
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

thats probably a special case which is easily coded to prevent it counting as one
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 19:56   #113
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

then can someone code it please???
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 20:17   #114
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Your missing his point xontas. Hes saying that you apply for an exception and then end up in the same galaxy either intentionally or by coincedent. You are now unable to defend anyone in the galaxy more than a couple of times a day even if its not the the other planet your defending.

Just like its also the case if your in two differnt galaxies, you probally wont be able to defend alliance mates who end up being in the other persons galaxy. This means your actually punishing every player in the game by denying an action thats clearly not cheating and which you wouldnt even consider closing a planet for
it was not alowed last round
so what changed?

also, its abusable and more importently, its getting abused!
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 20:37   #115
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Did you even read what wakey wrote?
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 20:57   #116
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

look, its not hard

we want to stop multi's from doing there damage
so interaction from the same ip is not alowed

then you have people that wanne explore every option
so everytime you have explained that NO interaction between accounts from the same ip are alowed they respond with " but what if....."

its realy not hard, not for any reson do we alowe interaction from same ip accounts
now if you chose to play in the same gal and alliance as the ather account on your IP
you can do that.
but you will be held to the same rules as all other players
so i suggest you dont.

it doesnt realy limit you because in normal play you get 1 or 2 interaction max (checked last round)

what i dont understand is that you CAN play with almost 4000 players in PA but you need to do the exact thing that all multi's do!
play with those accounts that are on your ip and look very very suspect

then when we take action agains those people, most say, but the system = wrong
thats like saying the rules to monopoly are wrong

rules are rules
you agree with them @ signup
you get informed about them on the forum
MH are around for any questions on IRC
so dont claim you didnt know!

my question is why do people keep trying to change the rules?
if we didnt have these rules you would be complaining about the cheats in the game
so............
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 22:30   #117
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

So basicly its impossible to introduce housemates, friends who live next door, colleague's becouse you are bound to interact with em more then usual.
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 22:37   #118
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Quote:
Originally Posted by xontas
look, its not hard

we want to stop multi's from doing there damage
so interaction from the same ip is not alowed

then you have people that wanne explore every option
so everytime you have explained that NO interaction between accounts from the same ip are alowed they respond with " but what if....."

its realy not hard, not for any reson do we alowe interaction from same ip accounts
now if you chose to play in the same gal and alliance as the ather account on your IP
you can do that.
but you will be held to the same rules as all other players
so i suggest you dont.

it doesnt realy limit you because in normal play you get 1 or 2 interaction max (checked last round)

what i dont understand is that you CAN play with almost 4000 players in PA but you need to do the exact thing that all multi's do!
play with those accounts that are on your ip and look very very suspect

then when we take action agains those people, most say, but the system = wrong
thats like saying the rules to monopoly are wrong

rules are rules
you agree with them @ signup
you get informed about them on the forum
MH are around for any questions on IRC
so dont claim you didnt know!

my question is why do people keep trying to change the rules?
if we didnt have these rules you would be complaining about the cheats in the game
so............

Becuase the interaction rules NEED some flexability because as I keep saying interaction isnt Black and White as you seem to think it is. I didnt once hear of you closing an account last round for two people scanning the same galaxy or even planet in a 24 hour period for example. That is not interaction and if you stopped being so bloody closed minded you would realise that. Interaction REQUIRES there to be a grand plan where as in most cases such events happening are coincedence as theres no grand plan.

What is actually needed are some clear guidelines to an acceptable amount of interaction published but no hard limits impossed. if the people go over that level of interaction its then for the Multi Hunters to use their intelligence to differentiate between intentional and coinicedence (which lets be honest in alot of cases is obvious, attacking the same planet a few ticks later on a number of occasions is most likly cheating, scanning a galaxy that the other one has scanned 10 hours ago almost certainly isnt)

No-one here wants cheaters to be aided BUT we also dont want to see the game killed because some people are too wrapped up in implementing a system that wont work. Just drop the bloody ego and admit that its flawd rather than continuing flogging a dead horse.

And tbh I find it hugly disrespectful that you are implying that those against this system want to help cheaters. Theres people on this thread like myself, jester and heartless whom havent just spent time playing this game but have been a part of groups like PATeam, Support Teams, Development Teams, Moderators ect ect and we havent undertaken these positions because we want the game to fail rather we want it to thrieve. And I'm sure even those people whom havent held such positions also feel the same way because they also have invested alot of time playing this game and in their own way have helped improve the game.
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Last edited by wakey; 5 Jul 2005 at 22:53.
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 22:39   #119
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

[edit]aimed at MegaNova post [/edit]

yep, they just ruined the mouth to mouth advertisement, geuss game will be going down a bit fsater now
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 22:55   #120
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaNova
So basicly its impossible to introduce housemates, friends who live next door, colleague's becouse you are bound to interact with em more then usual.
like always, yes
it has always been like that btw

how do you tell 2 people from 1 multi if they do the exact same thing
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 22:57   #121
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Becuase the interaction rules NEED some flexability because as I keep saying interaction isnt Black and White as you seem to think it is. I didnt once hear of you closing an account last round for two people scanning the same galaxy or even planet in a 24 hour period for example. That is not interaction and if you stopped being so bloody closed minded you would realise that. Interaction REQUIRES there to be a grand plan where as in most cases such events happening are coincedence as theres no grand plan.

What is actually needed are some clear guidelines to an acceptable amount of interaction published but no hard limits impossed. if the people go over that level of interaction its then for the Multi Hunters to use their intelligence to differentiate between intentional and coinicedence (which lets be honest in alot of cases is obvious, attacking the same planet a few ticks later on a number of occasions is most likly cheating, scanning a galaxy that the other one has scanned 10 hours ago almost certainly isnt)

No-one here wants cheaters to be aided BUT we also dont want to see the game killed because some people are too wrapped up in implementing a system that wont work. Just drop the bloody ego and admit that its flawd rather than continuing flogging a dead horse.

And tbh I find it hugly disrespectful that you are implying that those against this system want to help cheaters. Theres people on this thread like myself, jester and heartless whom havent just spent time playing this game but have been a part of groups like PATeam, Support Teams, Development Teams, Moderators ect ect and we havent undertaken these positions because we want the game to fail rather we want it to thrieve. And I'm sure even those people whom havent held such positions also feel the same way because they also have invested alot of time playing this game and in their own way have helped improve the game.
black and white would be no interactions @ all
we are setting up a system that alowes some, but not to many

we are not gonna discusse if the system is needed
we think it is and thats why we build it

i never said you support cheaters
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 22:59   #122
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

i invite the mods to close it now and make it into a poll
its only flaming now anyway
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 23:12   #123
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Quote:
Originally Posted by xontas
i invite the mods to close it now and make it into a poll
its only flaming now anyway
You can invite as much as you like, its not going to happen as its not flaming. Its a discussion on how this system is unsuitable in the current PA enviorment which is allowed under the Forum rules and its far from decended into flaming. TBH considering the circumstances its amazing how how calm people have remained
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 23:13   #124
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Quote:
Originally Posted by derry
[edit]aimed at MegaNova post [/edit]

yep, they just ruined the mouth to mouth advertisement, geuss game will be going down a bit fsater now
The game can sit quite nicely at 2-4k players if it wants to, don't be so negative
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 23:13   #125
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Quote:
Originally Posted by xontas
i invite the mods to close it now and make it into a poll
its only flaming now anyway
Try sending Wakey a PM.

Edit: beaten
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Unread 5 Jul 2005, 23:57   #126
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Last round my son and I played from the same IP.

Some of u guys know him (Naps) he was in 1up, and as you know I am in LCH, so obviously we were not interacting on any great level apart from the occasional scan (I played as a scanner for LCH)

Anyway about 5 weeks into the round, I went to login, and found my account suspended, and when Andy came in later, his was in the same state.

I made some enquiries on IRC with Phil, and found that we had been suspended pending investigation as a "Multi" as we had both attacked the same target.

It had happend 4 days apart, 4 days earlier 1up had attacked a galaxy, and then LCH did the same.

I could not forsee that he had attaccked that target, I had no knowledge of what he attacked or who, or for that matter had no desire to know.

Once explained to Phil the accounts were both re-opened it took 10 minutes and I lost nothing, nor did Naps so not really a problem.

But given that the "New" system would be hard coded into the game it would probably not be possible for that to happen. (ie and error would pop up saying not allowed or summat)

The difficulty is, that this would not become apparent until launch time.

In all alliances scans are done, targets posted (without the coords visible) and then released roughly half an hour before the launch time, along come the members, they pick a target not knowing the coords, but having the scans etc....

Then 5 minutes before launch the target list is updated, and people prepare to launch, suddenly it dawns on you that oopps, my son/daughter/dad/flat mate launched on that target 3 days ago and the exception I have in place then prevents me from launching, a target is lost, a planet not covered affecting a whole attack, as then there is a planet in the target galaxy not under attack who can defend 3 others with impunity.

The (Hard Coded) restrictions are bad, soft code to log events, investigate the events and act on them, dont cripple that game.

PLEASE
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 00:03   #127
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

And.. unlike r13 when you would be looked at the next day, presumably after the battle, you'll be restricted at night when no one's on for you to talk to or sort it out with, so you and to an extent your attacking group will be unnecessarily ruined for a night.
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 00:14   #128
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

judge, i understand that your alliance wants security on it but if they give you the cords longer before you can prelauch and see

the hardcoded limits will be there this round
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 00:15   #129
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
And.. unlike r13 when you would be looked at the next day, presumably after the battle, you'll be restricted at night when no one's on for you to talk to or sort it out with, so you and to an extent your attacking group will be unnecessarily ruined for a night.
so after you broke the rule you want to be punished(closed)
instead of getting stoped before you do?

i dont think thats right

anyway, the discussion on if we are gonna use the system is kinda mute
we ARE using the system
the only question remaining is on what level we are setting it
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 00:21   #130
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

After a cheater breaks a rule and get's caught doing it, yes I do want them punished, not restricted from cheating again until next week.
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 02:22   #131
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

I've followed this post and the scenario that Jester made to see what people think about the new exeption system. I've played PA from r 1-7 and now from r 12 and followed most the post in the forums but never signed up because i haven't had the need for it.

But this exeption system have some obvious flaws that the MH refuse or don't understand.

First I'm not haveing any problem with the exeption system cause i'm the only one playing from my IP, but I think the system (as it's discribed as now) will hurt PA more then it will benefit it.

I'm not enough familiar with the MH's system to say for sure but i've would guess that a cheater form the same IP will get caught in most cases. So I'm thinking that this system is made to take some work of the MH's, not anything bad in that IF the system had been good enough. Because then they've could consentrate on the hardcore cheaters. Which after my point of view are the real problem and probably those who have the greatest inpact in the game.

But over to the system

The main problem is that you ruin the game for the people that have flatmates and the alliances that have 1 or more in the alliance. If you can attack/scan/defend in one galaxy only a certain nuber of times you will interact at some point.

Just look at the exampel that Wakey wrote:

"Just like its also the case if your in two differnt galaxies, you probally wont be able to defend alliance mates who end up being in the other persons galaxy. This means your actually punishing every player in the game by denying an action thats clearly not cheating and which you wouldnt even consider closing a planet for"

It's no way you can call that cheating. This will only cause alot of problems for the players.

If you go all the way back to wakeys first post and what you answared to him there it gets even more complicated and cause even more problems.

Say if your alliance set up an attack (or needed a scan or needed to def someone in the gal) and when you decide to launch you're stopped because your flatmate/or someone else attacked that gal 2 days ago. This will cause you lots of frustation cause you have to find another target while the alliance attack have one uncovered planet. This will be a problem if you change attacing with defending as well.

It's no way that you can call that cheating as well.

You can make lots of scenarios that's interactions (or cheating like you like to call it) that should be allowed if you want people to still play the game.

But since it looks like this system will be in the upcomming round I only see the Loose System as a possible system so regular players still can have fun with the game. But I think this will make cheating easier then it was before this system was made.

I'm not sure if it was a point for me to write my first point cause Wakey have alreadt asked these obvious qusetions (in a much better way then me), but still haven't got real answar.

P.S What's the real use of the system when you managed to stop 400 cheating planets last round, then you get the cheaters out of the game instead of allowing them to cheat within restricitons
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 03:10   #132
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Quote:
i invite the mods to close it now and make it into a poll its only flaming now anyway
wauw, flames... where

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
The game can sit quite nicely at 2-4k players if it wants to, don't be so negative
true.that, 2k players... thats like 2 clusters, maybe we should change the game to Cluster-wars

Quote:
Anyway about 5 weeks into the round, I went to login, and found my account suspended, and when Andy came in later, his was in the same state. I made some enquiries on IRC with Phil, and found that we had been suspended pending investigation as a "Multi" as we had both attacked the same target. It had happend 4 days apart, 4 days earlier 1up had attacked a galaxy, and then LCH did the same. I could not forsee that he had attaccked that target, I had no knowledge of what he attacked or who, or for that matter had no desire to know. Once explained to Phil the accounts were both re-opened it took 10 minutes and I lost nothing, nor did Naps so not really a problem.
explain that to your alliance, instead of the normal, "i've overslept", "they are in my clusteralliance" (still makes me laugh if ppl use this ) or "i've got incoming so i need my fleets home" (yeh, mostly useless attack fleet ) you can now use, ohw looks like my brother(sister etc) attacked him somewhere in the last X days, i can't attack him

Quote:
anyway, the discussion on if we are gonna use the system is kinda mute we ARE using the system
kinda strange imo, there are like 2 post who say this system is great, and the rest tells you how flawed or not workable it is. It will probebly be me, but why can't the MH team not revise the system, and get something good out of the game, hard-coded-anti-*cheat*-stuff aint gonna work, unless its to loose to even do something, and then you an better use normal MH-ing imo.

Got work now(yes, at 4:15 in the night), else i could type more hehe, and i really hope the other mods follow wakeys example and NOT close the thread, its imo 1 of the best discussion on this board, don't see it every day that a thread with a lot of intrest didn't start in a flame war yet
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[00:22] <Doom> Where as in most cases it appears multing is an individual thing, LDK organises it and uses it. Making it an effective unit with a small number of players. It makes sense just not part of the rules. They just organised cheating =-)
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 12:50   #133
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Just for the benefit of everyone on this thread, and to stop my eyes hurting. It's Exception
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 15:25   #134
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

I don't understand why everyone's so annoyed about the way it's going to be coded in. The policy of people not being able to share IPs and interact has been around for ages, this exception system isn't inventing it. The thread started being flexible and asking what the coded restrictions should be, so again, I don't see what it's doing wrong. If there is a policy on it, I think having it coded into the game so that it's exactly the same for everyone isn't a bad thing. You could get rid of rules preventing interaction on the same IP completely, but I don't know how many people would want that.

My point is, the limits can be as flexible as people would like. If there are limits at all, having them hardcoded isn't doing anything wrong. It just means everybody gets treated the same with regards to the IP interaction rule.

Although I would agree that the MHers are focusing on the wrong issue, but that doesn't make this exception system any less good.
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 16:50   #135
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Possibly it's just that Xontas comes across as an arrogant idiot and annoys people that causes us to react this way
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 17:16   #136
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Quote:
Originally Posted by god113
I don't understand why everyone's so annoyed about the way it's going to be coded in. The policy of people not being able to share IPs and interact has been around for ages, this exception system isn't inventing it. The thread started being flexible and asking what the coded restrictions should be, so again, I don't see what it's doing wrong. If there is a policy on it, I think having it coded into the game so that it's exactly the same for everyone isn't a bad thing. You could get rid of rules preventing interaction on the same IP completely, but I don't know how many people would want that.

My point is, the limits can be as flexible as people would like. If there are limits at all, having them hardcoded isn't doing anything wrong. It just means everybody gets treated the same with regards to the IP interaction rule.

Although I would agree that the MHers are focusing on the wrong issue, but that doesn't make this exception system any less good.
Flexable, are you sure. There isnt a great difference between the 5 options all of which are low enough for coincedential interaction to become an issue and possiblly causing them major problems later on.

And its this reason why people are bothered about the system, its the very definition of a 'dumb' system which can tell whats cleary not actual interaction. I mean lets be honest no-one here can argue that two people who do a number of scans 20 hours apart with asome of these overlapping is actually interacting, they will simply be looking for targets. We dont need 'dumb' systems on something like this we need 'smart' systems that arent going to stop people playing the game in a fair way.
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 17:20   #137
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

ok, so restrict the multi's but not the friendly players that do the exact same thing

cant be done

so we 1) have a game full of chetas 2) have rules

this one will be in the round!
lets try this again
anyone wanne comment on settings (only asked a couple of times now)
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 18:12   #138
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Ok having read the entire thread (yes I did spend about 15 minutes reading the whole thing ) the main 2 issues I have seen are scanning and rules regarding same galaxy interaction.

Scanning:

Ok I don't see how 2 people scanning the same target, even (maybe even especially) if it was on the same tick, assuming the first person got through with his scan. If the first person didn't get through and then the other did that is a different matter. How can two people scanning the same target hurt the game in any way? If a scan then an attack occurs then this it is probably interaction but two people scanning the same planet can not be said to be hurting the game in any way.

Stopping people scanning different planets in the same galaxy is also stupid unless it is more than one or two planets in the gal, in which case it should probably be stopped.

Same Galaxy Interaction:

Now this is slightly less clear to me than the scanning problem. As far as I see it, two people defending different planets in the same galaxy is hardly interaction, especially if this happened days, or even just hours after each other. Attacking the same galaxy could be a problem, but even this I can't see as too bad, as long as they don't attack at the same time. A possible solution to this would be to ensure that when a planet attacks a gal, other planets in the exception can't attack for maybe 15-20 ticks. This would make it impossible for attacks to happen just to draw defence from one target.

The defending same galaxy is also stupid for the galaxies the excempt players are in. With none private galaxies there is a strong chance that, even if the same IP players aren't allied, there will be one of their allies in the same IPs gal. With the proposed rules you aren't just stopping people defending others on same IP, you are stopping them defending their ally mates in the the other guy's gal.


Overall I think the idea is good, just the way it is implemented should be tweaked in regards to the areas I, and others, have mentioned.
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 18:49   #139
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

yes, we will be tweaking during the round

but based on the issues we find in then!
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 18:55   #140
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Ok if your not willing to remove the system how about making some changes to it and using some slightly fairer limits.

Changes that need made are
1) Removal of galaxy limits for those people whom have an exception with each other but have landed in the same galaxy by coincedence. This does happen, ive landed in a galaxy on a couple of occasions with people I know in Real Life when going random. Its the game thats placed this upon them NOT themselves. They should hence be allowed to carry out as many indirect interactions as they like (things like defence of the other people in the galaxy, limits could still be impossed on direct interaction such as defending each other)
2) A system to locate those sharing your IP needs to be put in place. I'm thinking something like a page that lists those that share your IP, this wouldnt give out any details that would allow you to identify the person but would allow you to message them so you can get it sorted. Messaging them is the hard part of this as you cant really give their co-ords away so I'm proposing a PO box system. I'm sure your all aware of how PO Box's work, its an address thats not your own that mail gets delivered to and can then be collected by the owner. Now the obvious way of doing this in PA is to give everyone a hidden set of co-ords, probally best in something like the 300 or 400 range.These co-ords would act as kind of relay stations and would allow a person to send a message like "Hi, I noticed we are sharing an IP, do you work at establisment X. If so we need an exception so could come and see My Name in the Accounts deparment when you get a minute so we can sort it out". The person can reply to this and the situation can be resolved.
3) When under attack all scan limits are removed on the attacking planet. No-one should be stopped from scanning people attacking them.
4) Upon attempting to carry out an activity that will use one of your allowed exceptions you are warned and given the ability to cancel the action
5) Defence interaction events are removed from consideration IF the action is cancelled within a tick (to remove the ability of send, recall, send, recall to use people interactions up)
6) Attack Interaction events are removed if the attack is pulled before launching

Very Loose Level

1) Galaxy Scans. This is where I see the main problem as its where coincedences are most likly to happen. As such this needs to be pretty high, I would personally say 10 - 15 EVERY TWELVE HOURS
2) Planet Scans. Discouraging people from the same IP directly helping each other attack a target MIGHT have some merits so with the above change to system for when your being attacked perhaps we could keep this low. Maybe 1 Scan EVERY TWELVE HOURS

3) Galaxy Cov-ops. Not really used cov ops so not sure what a good 12 HOUR value would be but lets say 5 EVERY TWELVE HOURS
4) Planet Cov-Ops. Again I'm not sure on this but I'll take the same line as Scanning here and say 1 Cov-op EVERY TWLEVE HOURS

5)Galaxy Attack - 1 EVERY TWELVE HOURS would surfice
6)Planet Atatck - This is the area which I'm struggling most to balance. Maybe something like like allowing 3 attacks within a TWELVE HOUR PERIOD each WEEK (ie so attacking a planet 13 hours after the other person doesnt count as interaction, the other person then attacking 2 ticks later would however count as interaction)

7)Galaxy Defence - This might be best restricted to alliance mates only BUT 2 EVERY TWELVE HOURS would allow you to defend your alliance mates
8)Planet Defence - Same as Planet attack 3 Defences within a TWELVE HOUR PERIOD per WEEK


Its far from perfect still but by moving most things down to a 12 hour period it ensures that its dealing more with interaction and not coincedences. Also relativly harmless activies like scanning arent punished as much. I would still much rather the MH did their job than leave it to pre defined limits but seeing as thats not going to happen then this would be a move in the right direction
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 18:58   #141
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

wakey, i am not reading it anymore

i have anounced the system and asked for votes on the 5 options
not discussion the system and making all kind of changes
as said before
all 4000 players have diferent opinion!

so please atleast wait for the public beta!
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 18:58   #142
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Quote:
Originally Posted by xontas
yes, we will be tweaking during the round

but based on the issues we find in then!
Hmm so even if someone points out a major, obvious flaw that most people agree on in an aspect (some would consider what they have said major flaws, and a lot of people agree with them) then it won't be changed until you see it is a problem ingame?
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 19:04   #143
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

we are gonna play with the settings we deside
see how they work (to lose, to harsh) and tighten/losen as we go!

i hope its not needed, but as its new we might need to

btw, the massive objections on the tread are about a hand full of the same people that keep asking for changes!
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 19:13   #144
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Quote:
Originally Posted by xontas
wakey, i am not reading it anymore

i have anounced the system and asked for votes on the 5 options
not discussion the system and making all kind of changes
as said before
all 4000 players have diferent opinion!

so please atleast wait for the public beta!
5 options that are almost the same as each other. Thats why you ARENT getting responces.

All I've asked for on the last post are some additions to the system to remove some of the more obvious problems. Apart from the locating of people on your IP they are all fairly simple additions.

Then I've suggested a new option of setting that come from a pov of someone whos actually played the game last round and as such has a clue as to the how easy it is to have coincdental interaction over a 24 hour period and how it will cause problems for some player in some areas for legitimate players with the 5 proposed settings
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 19:17   #145
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

for R 15 we can discusse extra options
R14 code is done

so no changes
just settings

and to keep it simple and to keep within the reach we want to alowe the 5 options i gave are all you are gonna get
we dont want it more lose because it would be relaxing the rules and porces in MH
thats why option 1 is the most lose and the max I will alowe in settings!

from there ingame results will show what changes are needed!
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 19:27   #146
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Quote:
Originally Posted by xontas
for R 15 we can discusse extra options
R14 code is done

so no changes
just settings

and to keep it simple and to keep within the reach we want to alowe the 5 options i gave are all you are gonna get
we dont want it more lose because it would be relaxing the rules and porces in MH
thats why option 1 is the most lose and the max I will alowe in settings!

from there ingame results will show what changes are needed!
Its like i'm in Groundhog Day atm. This is major deja vu from events in earlier rounds which PATeam should have learnt from. Once the damage is done its too late, the issues that my additions deal with will have done their damage by Round 15 and the going too strict with the settings will also do damage before it gets changed. If a system cant be implemented right it should be held off and the system should start off losse and get stricter if needed rather than go strict and get looser

Damage done more often than not takes rounds to fix and its always been PA's problem because they make mistakes that could have been avoided and then before its been recovered other mistakes knock it back further. We were just starting to turn the game around again with last round being a major step in the right direction
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 19:42   #147
xontas
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

i dont agree with your views
yes i understand your arguments
yes IF that happens a lot it would hurt the game
but i did some checking before we did this (ofc) and put lots and lots of accounts in our system
it showed us what normal interaction is

that is playing from diferent gals and allainces

if ofc you chose to be in the same gal and alliance, you will be limited (i never denied that)

this is no change from the current system where ALL the things we consider in the new system is also considered cheating (on setting 0)

you dont agree with the system, its crystal clear to me that you dont agree
thats fine, but stop trying to push your opinion on me.
i know ok!
but the fact that we will have the system is alredy desided, the fact that its gonna be set like the 5 options i gave is also already desided

all i want to know is what options do you like so that i can desided on the final settings!
thats all i am asking
the rest will show itself in the round!
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 19:53   #148
derry
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

Quote:
Originally Posted by xontas
wakey, i am not reading it anymore
good, just close and delete the thread then, it just became useless
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[18:45] <Helix> if two wrongs dont make a right its twice as wrong to do something wrong to right it

[00:22] <Doom> Where as in most cases it appears multing is an individual thing, LDK organises it and uses it. Making it an effective unit with a small number of players. It makes sense just not part of the rules. They just organised cheating =-)
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 20:00   #149
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

/me gives up trying to ask people to just respond to the limits and not to the system :/

settings will be anounced shortly
and they will be set untill 1 week after pt 72
after that we will look @ any changes we want to make
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Unread 6 Jul 2005, 20:10   #150
derry
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Re: the NEW exeption system!

if the choices aint good, you don't get a response, simple logic, all the choices are the same, make more difference in em, and you'll prolly even get replies
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[18:45] <Helix> if two wrongs dont make a right its twice as wrong to do something wrong to right it

[00:22] <Doom> Where as in most cases it appears multing is an individual thing, LDK organises it and uses it. Making it an effective unit with a small number of players. It makes sense just not part of the rules. They just organised cheating =-)
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