Ziks next round

[Rassidan]

Im a zik player this round, and im just amazed of how badly zik sux for anti DE matters.
As a zik, and a good player zik (around top 10 ziks atp), i've seen a lot of battle reports in my planet, especially from terran players, and i wander many times, why my cutters cant do a thing to terran fleets?. Then when i used the battle calculator i just realized how badly cutters are.
Look:

it takes around 3,375,000 of cutter value to subert only the entire pods of a 2,100,000 terran DE fleet value. A value ratio of 1.607

http://www.pilkara.com/bcalc/?calc_id=1340786220

Now if i wish to subvert all the 2,100,000 terran DE fleet value i will need around 3,750,000 of cutter value. A value ratio of 1.78

http://www.pilkara.com/bcalc/?calc_id=942124968

As you can see this is a very huge balance problem, but im not here to tell you things you already know, im here to give a reasonable solution to this problem.

Make Pirates target DE with non subvert weapons. Why? you may think, its easy, look at the BS from the other three races:

Viper targets FR
Dragon targets CO
Fireblade targets FI

All those BS, especially the ones from Xans and Terrans, make many attackers to think twice, a CO based Terran or CO based Zik will hardly find suitable to attack a Terran with many Dragons. As a FI based Xan will think twice in attacking a Xan with Fireblades.

If you make the Pirate to target DE, many Terrans will find hard to attack a Zik, because as we all know, the rol of a BS of all races (maybe excpet Vipers) is for defence, sometimes for ally defence, but must of the time for own defence or ingal defence.

Then you may think, and what Zik ship will target CR: The Rogue. The rogue targets FI as the Cuttlass. But cutlass have almost a ratio of 1 in suberting other FI fleets. So the Rogue comes in a role of a almost useless ship, they dont even work well as cannon fodder because their lack of armor in comparition with the Marauders, so changing the Rogue with subvertive capabilities and targets CR wont hurt and wont give a huge advantage to Ziks.
First of all Rogues target FI and theres no FI that targets CR so theres no advantage in that, then theres no BS that targets CR so there is the same lack of advantage as a Rogue targetting FI.

Thats what i think, pls take these in to concideration, maybe not my idea, but the idea of ZIk overwhelming disadvantage against a Terran player

[Linkie]

First of all, this will leave zik un-able to defend versus destroyer in an alliance.
In addition, DE/Terran is supposed to be one of ziks weak points. I can agree the zik anti-de might need a small upgrade, but changing the Pirate into a DE-targetter is imo, not the right solution.

[Shaithess]

ok, leave us with cutlass as anti FI? I fail to see the point.

IF someone twice your value attacks you, you'd have to spend almost everything on cutlass to stop that xan roiding fleet as there are no FI shoot FI ships in the Xandathrii fleet. Rogues are a fantastic ship, and if a xan wants to hit me (I only have 300 of them...) with FI, they'll need to put in plenty of bombers too, enough to get past my clippers and corsair (6k corsair, 550 clip), and if they want to stop losing 200k+ value in bombers they have to then put their fireblades in. This a) leaves them open to attack, and b) ups their eta significantly, giving you far more time to grab anti FI, and also to get the likes of other rogues, vipers, pegs and even fireblades of your own in alliance.

As it is, I'm quite happy with ziks, though I feel cutters and perhaps pirates could do with a damage upgrade, or perhaps making pirates cheaper. As it is, I don't see the point in pir... Cutters are decent attack ships, but upgrading their power to 38-40 would help the zik fleet significantly IMO. As it is, I can currently roid decent sized xans for almost no losses; whether they run their fleet or not and they still have difficulty in roiding me... Ziks pwn xans, not as much as terrans pwn ziks, admittedly, but still well enough!

[Brimstone]

They cant really do that anyway with how pathetic the Cutters are atm. They are little use except as cannon fodder.
Though admittedly i saw a tiny planet buy 250 of them due to excessive terr DE roid fleets coming at them, and hasn't seen de since.

In respect to the Pirates, their great anti Cr, but too expensive, and too slow. As pointed out their only really used for home/ gal defense. BUT look at the other anti-de available. Pulsar are good, but have to put up with pegs, nixes are great fodder, but not very cost effective killers, Roaches are about the best anti-DE, and with cath being almost on a level pegging for being weak as the ziks, they're hard to come by.

A change like that would mean a complete re-arangement of ship stats, and i dont see the point in that.
Also, IMO i dont think you should as such have really weak ships and really strong ships for targeting, i think it should be more equal, with dependance on combinations. This is because it is near impossible to get a correct balance of ship stats through the races, as this round has proved with Terran and Xan owning all.

[Rassidan]

Originally Posted by Linkie

First of all, this will leave zik un-able to defend versus destroyer in an alliance.
In addition, DE/Terran is supposed to be one of ziks weak points. I can agree the zik anti-de might need a small upgrade, but changing the Pirate into a DE-targetter is imo, not the right solution.

Cutters will stay the way they are, so you can defend eta 7/8 Terran attacks inside ally. Will be exactle the same decisition problem as making Rogues/cutlass.
I said Rogues because in my experience i had like 1 or 2 FI attacks in the entire round so far, i dont deny the advantage of having a FI killing ship, but as i said, 90% of the attacks in my planet were from Terrans.

You may think that the reason why i dont have FI attacks are for my Rogues, yes its a big possibility, but at least not having Rogues targetting FI is a more fairly decition when it comes in value ratio (very close to 1 when cutters have around 1.6-1.7)

Like you said, improving Cutters attack may help a lot but anyways i still find Pirates useless

[Nology]

Cutters pathetic? Sorry but last I checked everynight my alliance needed my cutters and they always get the job done or at least most of it. I don't know how many you have but obviously you just don't know how to use them. Pirates I'll agree are a tad expensive but they are also worth the price if you know how to use them as well. They are arguably the most kickass ship in the game when it comes to them vs the class they attack. The real improvement I'd like to see made on Zik is an overall change. Change Zik so they subvert as much as the other races kill. Xan and Ter kill far better then the Zik sub. It should be equal across the board not a weakness till you reach cruiser and bs level.

[DunkelGraf]

Ziks should be able to steal again not subvert !!!

[Shaithess]

Cutters are pathetic... As defence ships. They are useful to subvert lancers (freeing up gryphons and pho), and to subvert pegs (freeing up pulsars). But the fact is, I have 565k or something of my value in cutters. A terran needs less than 500k value in DE to take some 460 or so roids from me, with NO LOSSES... So I still get constantly attacked by DE and there's no way I could stop this. No amount of 'knowing how to use them' will change the fact that terrans can roid me, especially when they're twice my size and have about 8k DE or so each.

HOWEVER, cutters are extremely useful attack ships... Still, I feel a power upgrade (to 38 or 40 like I said) would make them a more worthwhile investment and would improve Zik's chances.

[mist]

Originally Posted by Nology

Change Zik so they subvert as much as the other races kill. Xan and Ter kill far better then the Zik sub. It should be equal across the board not a weakness till you reach cruiser and bs level.

the idea is that you subvert some ships - stopping them firing on you, and then those ships fire on the enemy. a halfway house between emp and damage if you will

if you subvert as many ships as the others kill, then you take as little damage as they would, and then the ships you've subverted kill some of the enemy, further reducing the damage you take. seems a little overpowered

-mist

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by mist

the idea is that you subvert some ships - stopping them firing on you, and then those ships fire on the enemy. a halfway house between emp and damage if you will

if you subvert as many ships as the others kill, then you take as little damage as they would, and then the ships you've subverted kill some of the enemy, further reducing the damage you take. seems a little overpowered,

Yes, exactly.

Of course, if/when players realize this and don't send fleets that target themselves (which isn't too hard given the limiting targeting this round) then the subversion ability is completely wasted and Ziks become just a weak Cathaar.

[Rassidan]

Originally Posted by Nology

Cutters pathetic? Sorry but last I checked everynight my alliance needed my cutters and they always get the job done or at least most of it. I don't know how many you have but obviously you just don't know how to use them.

Your ships are needed not because they are cutters, just because they are a kind of anti DE, a bad one but still anti DE. Many DCs will look to kill attackers ships, not subvert them.

[Blacknova]

Originally Posted by Nology

Cutters pathetic? Sorry but last I checked everynight my alliance needed my cutters and they always get the job done or at least most of it. I don't know how many you have but obviously you just don't know how to use them. Pirates I'll agree are a tad expensive but they are also worth the price if you know how to use them as well. They are arguably the most kickass ship in the game when it comes to them vs the class they attack. The real improvement I'd like to see made on Zik is an overall change. Change Zik so they subvert as much as the other races kill. Xan and Ter kill far better then the Zik sub. It should be equal across the board not a weakness till you reach cruiser and bs level.

Two words:

Init 1

And a few to explain:

The later in combat you fire, the more efficient you need to be to get the job done, there's a reason why Terran has such silly high armor values (though their power values suck badly), it's because stuff shoots them before they get to return fire. Hence, Zik's do not NEED to be as efficient to get the job done since unless it's vs another Zik they can in theory get through unmolested.

Maybe stop thinking that one player on his own can wipe out any other fleet and try working with a few ppl to come up with mixed race combinations

Nova

[Linkie]

Originally Posted by Shaithess

Cutters are pathetic... As defence ships. They are useful to subvert lancers (freeing up gryphons and pho), and to subvert pegs (freeing up pulsars). But the fact is, I have 565k or something of my value in cutters. A terran needs less than 500k value in DE to take some 460 or so roids from me, with NO LOSSES... So I still get constantly attacked by DE and there's no way I could stop this. No amount of 'knowing how to use them' will change the fact that terrans can roid me, especially when they're twice my size and have about 8k DE or so each.

HOWEVER, cutters are extremely useful attack ships... Still, I feel a power upgrade (to 38 or 40 like I said) would make them a more worthwhile investment and would improve Zik's chances.

And how easily do you think I'm roided by xans as terran?
That's right.
Very easily.

it's all about the rock, scissor, paper effect.
However, I do agree that zik, and especially cath should be made a bit more effective so they look more inviting for players to plat.

[Shaithess]

Linkie, I understand what you mean..... Xans easily roid terrans, but they can also roid many cats for free, if inefficiently (many cats I've seen only build scorps), and they can quite easily roid zik (flak through with bomber/sabre if you only have clipper, throw fireblades in if there's corsair)...

Anyway, my point is that ziks are easy bait for every race in the galaxy, including themselves... But they find it nigh on impossible to efficiently roid terrans, and the way in which they CAN efficiently roid xans won't be worked out by most of the less tactically-minded players.

I just propose an increase in power to cutters and pirates, so that if you concentrate on them, you atleast have a chance of reducing cap to 20% or so if a terran 60-70% your size attacks you...

why are zik ships so heavily aromoured when they fire first?

suggestion is: less armour, more firepower
or: less armour, less cost

[Shaithess]

Originally Posted by syncro

why are zik ships so heavily aromoured when they fire first?

suggestion is: less armour, more firepower
or: less armour, less cost

Perhaps, but subversion rarely stops that many ships, leaving a strong force to kill you back. Against xans, less armour would lead to ziks being torn apart. Especially since it would be now nigh on impossible to roid them with the cutter/privateer fleet if they haven't built many vsh. Well, very expensive atleast...

[DunkelGraf]

stealing not subverting!