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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 12:09   #1
wades209
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Mil Centres

Does anyone else think we should have a cap on Mil Centres? This round proved that just building them pays off and actually holding onto value and defending yourself doesn't get you anywhere.
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 12:26   #2
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Re: Mil Centres

No because xp should be a viable way to play. Instead I think there should be a way to destroy xp... I would have suggested it but I have no idea what that would be since I dont want it to happen at the same time value is destroyed!
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 14:22   #3
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Re: Mil Centres

"Defending doesn't get you anywhere"? What? 80% of the top 10 and 98% of the top 100 played standard value!
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 16:04   #4
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Re: Mil Centres

I'm against cap and also destroying score
But I also think to get a t3 planet you should be forced to do some effort to keep value and roids, aswell as attacking
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 16:59   #5
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Re: Mil Centres

Imo, the top 1 and 3 didnt get there because XP/Mcs are broken but because they were escorted by other 10~12 planets during 80% of the round. That may seem unfair, but it is not different than grounding 2 or 3 alliances in order to defend one planet/gal.

Also, the usual small club who seems to share the top spots every round are very determined to not let their rivals inside the club win, but do not care much about outsiders. In addition to that, the fight for gal and ally usually comes first in priority.

The usual groups who are doing this strategy are not in the main alliances, they don't have a backup that could protect their members and they dont have much value either. Dealing with them should be quite simple. So why nerfing MCs?
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 17:51   #6
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Re: Mil Centres

They got there both cause Xp formula is broken And escorts.
The thing is the way it works now its not easily dealt with, as you can sit on rank 1 and hit rank 200 and still get decent gains.
Good of them to spot it and use it for one round but people shouldn't get a advantage from crashing.
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 18:01   #7
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Re: Mil Centres

It is not easy to gather a big group to play for you and manage them for an entire round. You make it sounds as it was less worthy than the usual tops.
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 18:30   #8
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Re: Mil Centres

And most of them didn't really "play" afaik they were inactive players who launched fakeattacks with all the benefits and none of the drawbacks from active launching when escorting. And yeah people should ofcourse do better with people helping out one single player, but there should be easier ways to keep them back then how it currently works. If a win is worthy or not is a discussion that wont lead anywhere, the winner wins. Anyway this is a discussion about mil centres and should be somewhat related to that and we're heading away from that topic now.

Mil centres are fine(probably), xp formula isnt. Capping milcentres would partly fix the problem but it would also remove some strategical elements.
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 18:57   #9
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Re: Mil Centres

The formula is not broken, you can either increase your xp atking a sitting duck from a well naped ally being bred just to be farmed by rnd end or atking a top score planet. Which one is more common in naptarion??

Also when atking high profile players who can easily know when fleets are fake, it demands one using fake atks to be in a tag with controlled memberbase, which means a tiny tag, a drawback for any top player
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 18:37   #10
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Re: Mil Centres

So let me try to understand, create a planet only to send def entire round its ok, but escort some1 is ugly.
Gimme a break, p3ng escorted top planets, made entire alliance get roided day after day just to keep their roids, plussss planed some FC on us, and lost top planet. But thats not us being good, its the xp broken. Lol

Its lame see ppl pointing out us winning as a bad thing for the game. We played so many rounds helping our alliances to win, never asking help to def our top planets, nevers asking help to make a top gal, and, not escorting, we just did what we saw as a good oportunity, so fock of and in place of whine congrat us for being so amazing
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 18:58   #11
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by Joseph View Post
So let me try to understand, create a planet only to send def entire round its ok, but escort some1 is ugly.
Gimme a break, p3ng escorted top planets, made entire alliance get roided day after day just to keep their roids, plussss planed some FC on us, and lost top planet. But thats not us being good, its the xp broken. Lol

Its lame see ppl pointing out us winning as a bad thing for the game. We played so many rounds helping our alliances to win, never asking help to def our top planets, nevers asking help to make a top gal, and, not escorting, we just did what we saw as a good oportunity, so fock of and in place of whine congrat us for being so amazing
First of all escorting isn't ugly.. Who said that? And noone is saying that you winning is bad for the game.

I don't think anyone have won with only sending def yet. And if that was OP it should be fixed aswell.. To make it to the top one should be doing good attacks and be able to defend your gains, or xp land top planets alot. One shouldn't be able to get there by farming inactive r150s(not saying you did this)

And yeah getting fcd shouldn't be a good thing...
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 19:09   #12
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
First of all escorting isn't ugly.. Who said that? And noone is saying that you winning is bad for the game.

I don't think anyone have won with only sending def yet. And if that was OP it should be fixed aswell.. To make it to the top one should be doing good attacks and be able to defend your gains, or xp land top planets alot. One shouldn't be able to get there by farming inactive r150s(not saying you did this)

And yeah getting fcd shouldn't be a good thing...
I dont thnk anyone have won with only sending escort fleets.
So, u guys FC Me 5x last round, made my value stay low, and now u blame us for not defend our gains?
How can we deal with a block with more then 100 planets fighthing against a 12 players tag? U r just making clear that small tags cant play, bcoz its impossible keep roids if being attacked and fc 1100 ticks.
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 20:01   #13
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by Joseph View Post
I dont thnk anyone have won with only sending escort fleets.
So, u guys FC Me 5x last round, made my value stay low, and now u blame us for not defend our gains?
How can we deal with a block with more then 100 planets fighthing against a 12 players tag? U r just making clear that small tags cant play, bcoz its impossible keep roids if being attacked and fc 1100 ticks.
Tbh Im not following you here.. And for every post I do answer you with, you come with more stuff which I haven't said.
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 21:49   #14
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
Tbh Im not following you here.. And for every post I do answer you with, you come with more stuff which I haven't said.
Probably me english is worst then i thought.
U said defwhores never won a round, i said escort guys idem.
U said ppl must keep their gains to be top, i said no, u can land and be landed all round and stay un fight, for that ones who cant ask def for entir alliance.
U said ppl cant just attack #150 planets to win, i said yes, they can. Despite we didnt, as u know very well
The point here is why ppl still mad with MC AND XP
They should be all happy with a new way to play the game, not defending, sleeping at night, and being a pain in the ass of any alliance playing for win.
Btw, this was not invented by us. We just copied other guys strat and worked well.
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 23:21   #15
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Re: Mil Centres

If escorting is (part of) the "problem" perhaps we should consider making fleets set to "Fake Attack" behave in the same way as those set to "Fake Defend" - that is recalling one tick before landing. At least that would mean that the escorters would have to put in the effort to be online to coordinate their recalls - and give the defender(s) the opportunity to stand their ground if any escorts pulled too early.
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Unread 6 Oct 2014, 23:54   #16
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Re: Mil Centres

in other words, lets just blow up escorting, as we cant handle it.
same to SK with structure defence covering 100% of loses.

naptarion ftw =)
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 00:24   #17
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Re: Mil Centres

I agree that the military centres are fine, the escorting got joseph n co to where they were, and the escorts were from people who quite confidently said they were inactive

ArcChaos hit the nail on the head.

Let's make fake attacks recall eta 2, same as fake defence.

Problem solved a little bit. Then active people can defend, and be online at the right time to assess whether it's a recall or land.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 02:04   #18
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Re: Mil Centres

Can u please explain why this strat will remove the need of community?

Maybe if u give us some good reasons we all can understand why u so dissapointed with xp whores.

I can tell u something about inactive players, some rounds, ppl just cant play seriously, rl problems, work, lot of things. So i used a argument to convince them to play, " u can check your planet 2x day, help some friends, and keep in touch with us, and i promisse we are not going to call u in the midle of night asking ships"
How can this ruin the game? Is a option to ppl play without being hardcore, in big alliances, and still have some fun with friends.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 02:31   #19
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Re: Mil Centres

maybe ill get some rl friends to signup and build fleets to escort me heh.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 02:32   #20
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Re: Mil Centres

also back to the point of the topic - we have a cap on Finance Centres (the value option) in the interests of balance perhaps we should also have a cap on Military Centres...


...or perhaps even more interesting...

Why don't we remove the cap on Finance Centres.. surely that would encourage more value orientated play?
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 03:32   #21
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by Caj View Post
also back to the point of the topic - we have a cap on Finance Centres (the value option) in the interests of balance perhaps we should also have a cap on Military Centres...


...or perhaps even more interesting...

Why don't we remove the cap on Finance Centres.. surely that would encourage more value orientated play?

Only if they cost the same (resources and CU) and provided the same relative benefit.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 02:45   #22
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Re: Mil Centres

I suggest we get the score from the #1 (11232623) and the #20 (8620624) from last round. Then divide one by the other 8620624 / 11232623. It is 0.767, but let's round down for safety to 0.7 and apply to the Xp formula: XP = 0.7 * roids capped * 10 * bravery factor

This way we will make a change in the root cause of the problem and there is no need to mess with other aspects (fc limit, etc)
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 02:55   #23
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Re: Mil Centres

U want to compare a planetarion player that cant be avaible one or two rounds with some1 who never played?
But i fully encorage u to invite them to play. Probably they wont. But if they come, will be very good for community.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 09:09   #24
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by fortran View Post
I suggest we get the score from the #1 (11232623) and the #20 (8620624) from last round. Then divide one by the other 8620624 / 11232623. It is 0.767, but let's round down for safety to 0.7 and apply to the Xp formula: XP = 0.7 * roids capped * 10 * bravery factor

This way we will make a change in the root cause of the problem and there is no need to mess with other aspects (fc limit, etc)
Fortran this is more in the lines of where I'm thinking yours was perhaps abit drastic tho.

-

Joseph Im not dissappointed with xp whores, hey Ill probably be one myself this round. I just believe that xp whoring is too strong atm and needs to be nerfed.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 09:28   #25
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
Fortran this is more in the lines of where I'm thinking yours was perhaps abit drastic tho.

-

Joseph Im not dissappointed with xp whores, hey Ill probably be one myself this round. I just believe that xp whoring is too strong atm and needs to be nerfed.
I don't feel that xp whoring is to strong.

To successfully accomplish this, like Joseph did just last round. Or Hellkicker the round before (?) actually require a fair share of effort.

You need a group of people willing to disregard your own planet, while spending time contributing to your planet.

It is not that powerful if you fly around solo trying to cap XP.

It has been powerful lately simply because some players have had a group of pals who were willing to do this - and in Joseph case he not only had his pals escorting him willingly every day, he also (without asking) had App hitting top planets competing with him.

It is a viable strategy that is only powerful if you have a small community willing to flagship you, not due to fake attacks and MCs alone, those are just elements required to make it all work.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 11:56   #26
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Re: Mil Centres

And i strongly disagree, I find your point(s) irrelevant.
It does not require effort.
It does not require having a bunch of nubs escorting you all round, without landing themselves.

Maybe most players in pa don't mind playing like shit, but the so called "strategy" you are on about is so far from good. 10+ players to make 1! look "good". While the others may aswell delete as they are far away from any noteworthy rank. Nor do you really play planetarion this way. Anyone could do the same with 1 minute daily and a few "cousins/friends/whatever"

Quote:
It is not that powerful if you fly around solo trying to cap XP.
Actually... it is! This is what i usually do when i bother to play.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 12:27   #27
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Re: Mil Centres

we had 12 players,
1 scanner 1 covop
top 1 player
top 3 player
top 98 player
and all rest of them ended ok imho.

so, can u organize your idea again about 10 players doing nothing for 1 look ok?

we had 30% of tag very very well ranked!
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 13:50   #28
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Re: Mil Centres

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And i strongly disagree, I find your point(s) irrelevant.
It does not require effort.
It does not require having a bunch of nubs escorting you all round, without landing themselves.

Maybe most players in pa don't mind playing like shit, but the so called "strategy" you are on about is so far from good. 10+ players to make 1! look "good". While the others may aswell delete as they are far away from any noteworthy rank. Nor do you really play planetarion this way. Anyone could do the same with 1 minute daily and a few "cousins/friends/whatever"



Actually... it is! This is what i usually do when i bother to play.
True,

You proved it this round. You flew around 3x solo as a xan. Ranked high due to that.

But my point really is still standing. Anyone can't fly around doing this and ending high. It requires some sort of dedication, a portion of luck or knowledge of where to hit efficiently.

Stand alone the MCs and/or fake attacks will not make any given planet a t3 rank. You have to activly pursue this tactic to make it pay off with high rankings (if that is your goal).

One option is what Joseph did this previous round.
Another option is how you played it out - constantly relaunching on same alliance that you know give you high chance of landing (correct me if wrong).

Joseph was not xan, so he did not have the option of sending pod attacks in the same way as you could as xan.

A third option I remember is Budious (??) who atleast previous rounds kept on sending 3x pod fleets as a Ter, mixed classes. He usually ended up decent ish - simply because he betted on targets screwing up, forgetting to fight or gal/alliance not bothering to cover incs because they assumed it was selfcover.

I still think it is not to powerful, and having the option of competing without relying on value mainly is something we need in this game.

As mentioned above, playing for a top ranking using the "correct" strategy, which is accumulating roids and value - and keeping it throughout the round is definatly out of reach for the common player.

By reducing the impact MC and/or fake attacks could have, are we not just favouring the experienced crowd only?
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 12:49   #29
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
Fortran this is more in the lines of where I'm thinking yours was perhaps abit drastic tho.
It is drastic, but it is simple and lean. A real life solution. The changes to the game would be reduced to a minimum.

I wanted to suggest this factor to be called the "Whining Factor" alongside the bravery factor in the formula, but that would be trolling.

==============

On the other hand I can see the points of the old players about this issue. PA for those who saw Joseph's strategy harmful to the game is not about winning at all costs, but winning in a way all the ones who usually fight for the top (a small part of the community) agree it is acceptable. It is like a gentlemen's agreement.

The standard path to the top includes:
- being active
- being the least hated
- being in a good gal with good players to support you, helping you fencing the gal
- being able to leech and being preferred among the leechers from your ally
- being able to get pnaps

The later 3 requirements are not something that any player can afford without putting a few years of dedication to the game and not something you get playing in a small and closed group.

I only don't get why you didn't crush his strategy easily ingame and chose to crush it in forums. To never have to deal with it again maybe? Coz, even nerfing fakeatks and xp formula there is no guarantee it won't happen again. The safest route is to ban Xp.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 13:07   #30
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Re: Mil Centres

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I only don't get why you didn't crush his strategy easily ingame and chose to crush it in forums.
Mostly because it was not easy to crush ingame! Joseph said he was fleetcaught 5 times - for most players any one of them would end their chance of number 1. Joseph (or XiCoT not sure which) also crashed against suicide defences a couple of times, again something that would usually end someone's T3 chances.

Clearly more attention could have been paid to doing these things earlier in the round but I imagine most players thought as you say here that it will be easy to crush later so no need to worry about it!
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 13:11   #31
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Re: Mil Centres

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Mostly because it was not easy to crush ingame! Joseph said he was fleetcaught 5 times - for most players any one of them would end their chance of number 1. Joseph also crashed against suicide defences a couple of times, again something that would usually end someone's T3 chances.

Clearly more attention could have been paid to doing these things earlier in the round but I imagine most players thought as you say here that it will be easy to crush later so no need to worry about it!
You have to FC the escorters, Joseph's value was on his escorters. How could he keep atking efficiently without his value. One could even FC and steal the resources after that. Easy for an organized full tag ally against a 12 planets tag full of inactives, it wouldnt take more than a couple of days.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 11:45   #32
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Re: Mil Centres

Motti said all i wanted.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 13:32   #33
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Re: Mil Centres

The escorters did not exactly have good value either so fleetcatching them late round was pretty irrelevant. Theoretically it would have made the attacks easier to cover but in practice the attacks were only difficult to cover because they came on the end of attacks by other alliances so there were never any ships available.

You have to hand it to them; They knew most alliances would be more concerned with ally rank or incs from bigger alliances so would mostly ignore them until too late. You say it would only take a couple of days; which alliance had a couple of days to spare undertaking a series of fleetcatches on an alliance that is not in contention for alliance win? P3n had the chance in the last week of the round when the ally conflict was winding down but I fail to see how fleetcatching the escorters one by one at this stage rather than Joseph would have altered the outcome.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 13:48   #34
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Re: Mil Centres

Yah let's limit planetarion even more! The only thing that should count to score should be value from roids, initiated roids and naps
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 13:39   #35
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Re: Mil Centres

How about making FCs more efficient instead? That would help no?^^ And be more fun.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 13:46   #36
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Re: Mil Centres

Why would you make FCs more efficient rather than refineries? Surely it is better to help players at the bottom more than those at the top who collect loads of roids and sit on them!
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 17:54   #37
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Re: Mil Centres

And by the end when we could do something about it, they stopped targetting us and instead switched to ND planets.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 18:02   #38
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Re: Mil Centres

Then I guess p3ng's problem was not lack of competence but priority (and planning).

I think it has been pretty common #1 ally not getting #1 planet. I don't see a reason for all this whining. If your priorities were different, you could get planet for sure.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 18:35   #39
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Re: Mil Centres

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Then I guess p3ng's problem was not lack of competence but priority (and planning).

I think it has been pretty common #1 ally not getting #1 planet. I don't see a reason for all this whining. If your priorities were different, you could get planet for sure.
Not really you can check the history page allies with a lot more inc had top planets they just defended better.


Btw this is how it looks when xp is broken
http://www.clawofdarkness.com/pawiki...6:Planet_Ranks
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 20:12   #40
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Re: Mil Centres

if p3ng has put as much effort in defending there top planets as they do in whining we would not have had this discussion at all....
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 21:34   #41
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Re: Mil Centres

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if p3ng has put as much effort in defending there top planets as they do in whining we would not have had this discussion at all....
Just to moan a bit more this is unfair (since that's what you seem to think is all we do). The p3n ppl in this thread have mostly been explaining that circumstances/alliance decisions are in part the reason why there two of the top planets were xp planets. And have therefore been pointing out that we were NOT INTERESTED in defending our top planets last round. We did not want to put effort into defending our top planets (we did that very well the previous round) instead we put our effort where we thought it more important. The side effect of this was to provide a boost to HUEHUEHUE as they could easily land on us. That is unfortunate but something we were clear-eyed about from the start of them hitting us (though I as I have mentioned it took a while to realise this would mean we were handing them top planet - but even once the realisation was made our priorities remained the same).

As a result it is difficult to say from these two top planets that mil centres are op.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 20:35   #42
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Re: Mil Centres

Fake Attacks recalling eta 2->1 will fix a lot of my problems with XP, in that it will require much more effort now to pull off last round's win rather than 10 people logging in once a day to prod new ships and launch a fleet they don't have to look after.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 20:38   #43
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Re: Mil Centres

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Fake Attacks recalling eta 2->1 will fix a lot of my problems with XP, in that it will require much more effort now to pull off last round's win rather than 10 people logging in once a day to prod new ships and launch a fleet they don't have to look after.
As far as I know they launched most of their attacks as real, they even landed on some with all fleets because there was defence so....
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 20:55   #44
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Smile Re: Mil Centres

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As far as I know they launched most of their attacks as real, they even landed on some with all fleets because there was defence so....

Some fleets were real some weren't.

It is as I said above, the only way to avoid a XP whore to take place inside the top 20 from a player who deserved more playing the "right" way is to completely remove XP from the counted score.
Even my suggested "Whining Factor" to the XP formula cant guarantee that.
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 21:43   #45
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Re: Mil Centres

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Originally Posted by Hunterrrr View Post
As far as I know they launched most of their attacks as real, they even landed on some with all fleets because there was defence so....
Hi phant
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Unread 7 Oct 2014, 21:47   #46
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Re: Mil Centres

U guys Would be surprise how active we are in whatsapp. We are not cousins as many of u belive. Sometimes ppl i know ask me If the brazilian in his gal is a real guy. Funny
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Unread 8 Oct 2014, 12:49   #47
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Re: Mil Centres

RaUIZiToS you are wrong; whether xp is too strong or not strong enough is one of the eternal arguments of pa, it goes back and forth and comes up regularly! You just happen to be the catalyst for this particular set of discussions.

Motti you are busy attacking TheoDD who is one of the people on this thread who does not believe xp is op. Indeed the only person who adheres to your straw man suggestion that xp is broken/op in this thread is Plaguuu who who essentially seems to believe that it is unfair that rank 2 while rank 1 on value should get almost no xp off rank 1 who is way down the value ranks while rank 1 can get immense xp off rank 2... in other words wants more xp to be more score based than value based.
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Unread 9 Oct 2014, 20:59   #48
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Re: Mil Centres

If its worth it to build sd or not depends on how much sk is flying around, and how likely they are to hit you Obviously if there is noone building sk you're losing out bigtime building sd.
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Unread 9 Oct 2014, 21:52   #49
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Re: Mil Centres

Have some data.

Last round, 102610 structures were built: roughly 25% FCs, 30% refs, 16% amps and dists, 9% factories. 1706 of those (1.66% of the total) were destroyed by SKs. 4560 SD (4.44% of the total) were built. By itself, that says nothing. Unfortunately, there's no data on how many structures would have been destroyed if no one had built any SD.

20 SDs were destroyed and 4560 were built, so only 0.4% was destroyed, or 1.26% less than the average. For a very rough approximation, we can extrapolate that to other buildings, and if we additionally assume that the ratio of buildings destroyed was roughly equal to the ratio of buildings constructed, then SDs are not worth it, at least not in these numbers: 1.66% + 1.26% is still much less than 4.44%.

That means that if this trend continues, then the average player should actually build fewer SD. It only becomes useful if you attract the attention of the unsavoury elements in our community. I'm looking at you, Norton!

But if you do it just to make the trolls cry bitter tears of anguish, that's a good reason.

Thanks to Appoco for the data!
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Unread 10 Oct 2014, 05:15   #50
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Re: Mil Centres

Maybe factor in that the lower half of the universe is less likely to be sk'd, as few if any has any interest in sk'ing / roiding them. So i disagree to some extent that less SD's is required for all. You are saying avg 4.44% SD's were built... Remove most of the lower half of the universe and you are around 8%... Probably why only 1706 buildings were destroyed only, as most in the top half was immune. Thats atleast how i analyze your post mz. Thank you for sharing
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