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Unread 9 Jul 2004, 23:14   #1
Nodrog
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I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Whenever I double click on the tab bar to open a new tab, the focus does not go to the address bar. I'm used to just clicking and then typing in the address automatically, but now I have to actually click on the address bar with my mouse first, which is incredibly stupid design. How do I go about changing this?

Also is there a keyboard shortcut to open a new tab? The obvious choice (control-n) seems to launch a whole new browser.

Also how I can i make it cycle tabs in the order last accessed, rather than order opened?
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Unread 9 Jul 2004, 23:16   #2
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

ok control-t seems to launch a new tab and using that puts focus in the address bar, so that's just 2 problems now.
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Unread 9 Jul 2004, 23:17   #3
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Ok another complaint, there seems to be no easy way to turn off the loading of images. Since I'm on 56K it would be nice to have a quick way to disable images on one particular page, such as the 'show images' toggle which Opera puts in each tab.
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Unread 9 Jul 2004, 23:19   #4
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Why don't you just use opera then? It's obviously you are too old and rusted to change your habits.
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Unread 9 Jul 2004, 23:20   #5
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

It sucks because Nod uses it.
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Unread 9 Jul 2004, 23:23   #6
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flayer
Why don't you just use opera then? It's obviously you are too old and rusted to change your habits.
Because my list of niggles is relatively small, and most of them relate not to personal taste, but to minor pieces of poor design that, while small in themselves, add up at a fairly rapid rate (the 'images' one is an exception, since that is a fairly major issue for me, and I'll probably stop using firefox if there isnt a way to do it). If there's a way to change them, I would like to know.
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Unread 9 Jul 2004, 23:48   #7
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

tools-options-web features
load images...
(theres also a "block images from this site" option if you right-click on an image.)

there one great big extension for tabs that may have the option to cycle tabs in the order last opened, i dont really know.

you could post a bug report about the focus not going to the address bar when you double click on the address bar. its a fair comment. i just use control-t which works fine for me.

Last edited by Dr. Octagonecologyst; 9 Jul 2004 at 23:56.
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 00:04   #8
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Slightly off-topic:

Does anyone use MyIE2? I'm interested to know whether it's any good.
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 00:11   #9
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

i installed firefox yesterday and my only complaint so far is that i prefer the IE mouse wheel because after middle-clicking you can just scroll to turn it off but hey thats so tiny a complaint

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
Slightly off-topic:

Does anyone use MyIE2? I'm interested to know whether it's any good.
and you were right, this is off-topic
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 01:19   #10
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Why whine at us Gordy, we didn't write the f'king thing !

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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 01:21   #11
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaio
Why whine at us Gordy, we didn't write the f'king thing !

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having read this post i am sure you had something useful to contribute but chose not to?
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 01:29   #12
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Whenever I double click on the tab bar to open a new tab, the focus does not go to the address bar. I'm used to just clicking and then typing in the address automatically, but now I have to actually click on the address bar with my mouse first, which is incredibly stupid design. How do I go about changing this?
Can't say I had noticed myself. I'll look into it. On a vaguely-related note, get the "paste and go" extension for extra 'a bit like Opera' points.


Quote:
Also is there a keyboard shortcut to open a new tab? The obvious choice (control-n) seems to launch a whole new browser.
Ctrl+T, or shift+ctrl+clickonlink


Quote:
Also how I can i make it cycle tabs in the order last accessed, rather than order opened?
There's an extension for that. It is aptly named.


Quote:
Ok another complaint, there seems to be no easy way to turn off the loading of images. Since I'm on 56K it would be nice to have a quick way to disable images on one particular page, such as the 'show images' toggle which Opera puts in each tab.
The absolute must for FF is the AdBlock plugin. It's sex on a spamless stick of sexy sex.

I don't know what it is about the two browsers but despite opera's slight technological edge I just prefer FF. I do miss the fact that Opera supports the <link> tag properly, with the extra navigation bar to allow it to cope. I don't miss standards adherence that is so strict it spits out real-world web design.
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 01:36   #13
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

To address the focus problem Nod:

Go to the extensions site on Mozilla or go here

http://texturizer.net/firefox/extensions/

download "Tabbrowser Preferences" - installing that will means any pages loaded in a new tab will have the focus automatically set on to them
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 01:49   #14
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Hold on, do I have to install some kind of extension whenever I want to change any part of functionality?
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 01:51   #15
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Don't worry, it's just for the bits that count.
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 09:27   #16
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

I like in FireFox how if you click your mouse wheel (ie. press it instead of rolling it) it opens that link in a new tab in the background, so you can carry on reading the rest of the page you're on in the meantime.
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 10:14   #17
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Androme2
download "Tabbrowser Preferences" - installing that will means any pages loaded in a new tab will have the focus automatically set on to them
On another forum, I've recently been hearing that both Tabbrowser Preferences and Tabbed Browsing Extension (TBP and TBE, respectively) should be avoided, as they integrate fairly closely into Firefox and can cause things to muck up - although I've yet to experience that myself; of course I rarely use Firefox. Single Window is apparently the extension that seems to be recommended mostly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Hold on, do I have to install some kind of extension whenever I want to change any part of functionality?
Not necessarily. You could also get the source code and change it yourself
Quote:
Originally Posted by sayonara
I don't miss standards adherence that is so strict it spits out real-world web design.
To be honest, I encounter fairly little sites that really don't function in Opera. The only one I currently use Firefox for is GMail, and I've heard that Opera 7.60 will be supported by GMail, so that's just temporary as well.
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 10:15   #18
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

I feel ashamed opening topics like this on the pure "Nerd-Factor" they hold.

I close them whenever anyone comes near the computer in case they tar me with the same brush o' nerds ;(
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 11:15   #19
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Thanks for that Tomkat, your input was appreciated.
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 12:44   #20
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Quote:
Originally Posted by A2
I like in FireFox how if you click your mouse wheel (ie. press it instead of rolling it) it opens that link in a new tab in the background, so you can carry on reading the rest of the page you're on in the meantime.
opera does this also
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 13:09   #21
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Quit with the "Oh opera > Firefox" crap already - it's getting old and people will chose as they please.
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 13:40   #22
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Whenever I double click on the tab bar to open a new tab, the focus does not go to the address bar. I'm used to just clicking and then typing in the address automatically, but now I have to actually click on the address bar with my mouse first, which is incredibly stupid design. How do I go about changing this?
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=230401

Looks like they're working on it.
I still use Control-T anyway.
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 13:44   #23
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

What you want is maximised IE windows, Alt-Tab to cycle.
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 15:30   #24
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
To be honest, I encounter fairly little sites that really don't function in Opera. The only one I currently use Firefox for is GMail, and I've heard that Opera 7.60 will be supported by GMail, so that's just temporary as well.
I'm impressed they are becoming less common. It's just annoying when you are designing a page that adheres to the intentions of the W3C standard, and it displays the same in every fricking browser part from Opera, which needs its own style sheet because it's obsessively sticking to the letter of the spec semantics.

Gah.
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 15:42   #25
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Octagonecologyst
Thanks for that Tomkat, your input was appreciated.
I aim to please <3

Seriously though, I think there's more threads in here comparing browsers, than anything else.
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 16:21   #26
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

So? :/
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 16:32   #27
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I aim to please <3

Seriously though, I think there's more threads in here comparing browsers, than anything else.
'Exaggeration' meen anything to you?
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 17:07   #28
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayonara
I'm impressed they are becoming less common. It's just annoying when you are designing a page that adheres to the intentions of the W3C standard
The intentions of the W3C are covered exactly by their specifications, as far as I know. Care to give me an example of where the W3C specifications contradict their intentions?
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 17:31   #29
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

I didn't say they contradicted. I am saying that they are implemented to different degrees, and that Opera is closer than the other browser vendors.

The box model differs significantly between browsers. Floating and positional inheritance is different under Opera and Mozilla builds, and it's not even worth comparing IE to that lot.

I support Opera's dedication to the W3C recommendations (does anyone know when it was that they too started referring to their own specs as "standards"?), but they are trying to get too far ahead, too fast. Browsers like IE either need to catch up, or give up - software vendors don't realise that the possiblity of a market schism is not going to bother web developers one iota.

I don't think it's a good idea to overstate the specs that the W3C issue. If their intentions are mirrored exactly by the letter of their specs, then they must have intended to put that ridiculous "accuracy or speed" flaw into table structure for HTML 4.01 and (slightly more damning) for XHTML 1.0 (a structure, I might point out, that has had plenty of time to develop in a rational sense, never mind be adopted in a uniform fashion by the market.)
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 18:09   #30
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayonara
The box model differs significantly between browsers. Floating and positional inheritance is different under Opera and Mozilla builds, and it's not even worth comparing IE to that lot.
I generally find that Opera's behaviour is the more logical and consistent one; many of these dissimilarities should be fixed with CSS3 though, when one can select which border-box model to use. For now, I'd consider Gecko the odd one out with it's custom CSS properties.
Quote:
I support Opera's dedication to the W3C recommendations (does anyone know when it was that they too started referring to their own specs as "standards"?), but they are trying to get too far ahead, too fast.
I disagree. Current standards (or recommendations, whatever you choose to call them) are fairly old, and are supported by pretty much any modern browser. The fact that MSIE has not been updated in over three years with regards to standards compliance does not mean that other browsers somehow are moving too quickly.

In addition, you need to keep in mind that Opera Software ASA is a leading company on the market for PDA browsers. The internet in general is not ready yet for new devices accessing it - most webdesigners are still looking at their work to be displayed on a standard monitor, whereas a plethora of devices are coming onto the market that do not conform to those expectations. Newer standards such as XHTML and CSS2 do intend to cater for such alternative devices, in combination with proper design. Opera pushing for acceptance and general implementation of these standards is not only understandable, but also necessary.
Quote:
I don't think it's a good idea to overstate the specs that the W3C issue.
Granted, the W3C specs are not perfect and I can think of several flaws. However, they are the closest thing to a set of strict regulations that should be followed. As soon as you allow deviations and own implementations, you're going to end up with the same mess where different browsers support different standards, or implement these in different ways that we are slowly moving away from. As such, I can understand and back Opera's decision to rigidly support that which is documented in the W3C specifications.
Quote:
If their intentions are mirrored exactly by the letter of their specs, then they must have intended to put that ridiculous "accuracy or speed" flaw into table structure for HTML 4.01 and (slightly more damning) for XHTML 1.0
I'm not aware of this particular issue. Care to enlighten me?
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 18:21   #31
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Oh god. Get a room!
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 18:40   #32
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

How about you fk off from this thread if you don't have anything constructive to add to the discussion?
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 18:52   #33
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
How about you fk off from this thread if you don't have anything constructive to add to the discussion?
But how would TomKat ever get to post?
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 19:11   #34
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
I generally find that Opera's behaviour is the more logical and consistent one; many of these dissimilarities should be fixed with CSS3 though, when one can select which border-box model to use. For now, I'd consider Gecko the odd one out with it's custom CSS properties.
I agree, Opera's direction is the way to go. But the simple fact is that the market is not moving in that direction fast enough, so keeping current with both the generally accepted standards and the explicit strict model is becoming a burden: that's my bug-bear.


Quote:
I disagree. Current standards (or recommendations, whatever you choose to call them) are fairly old, and are supported by pretty much any modern browser. The fact that MSIE has not been updated in over three years with regards to standards compliance does not mean that other browsers somehow are moving too quickly.
The standards are supported, but implemented in different ways. As a business practice, that's a perfectly normal thing to do. However purely from the point of view of the web developer it really can't go on for much longer.
Every new version of Opera and Mozilla for the past couple of years has included at least some enhanced implementation of CSS, XML or HTML. IE has done virtually nothing. The gap between them is widening, whichever way you want to look at it. I don't know enough about KHTML, Safari etc to comment on those unfortunately, but I suspect they're uber-compliant like Opera.


Quote:
In addition, you need to keep in mind that Opera Software ASA is a leading company on the market for PDA browsers. The internet in general is not ready yet for new devices accessing it - most webdesigners are still looking at their work to be displayed on a standard monitor, whereas a plethora of devices are coming onto the market that do not conform to those expectations.
This is a symptom of the situation I am describing. I think you are assuming that I have something against Opera, which is not true. I'm all for better standards adherence, small device porting and what have you. My problem is not with any particular vendor, but with the current state of play across the market:- that the implementation of standards and practices (not just "support", which is a wholly unuseful concept) is languid and disorganised.


Quote:
Newer standards such as XHTML and CSS2 do intend to cater for such alternative devices, in combination with proper design. Opera pushing for acceptance and general implementation of these standards is not only understandable, but also necessary.
I agree completely, but it's becoming obvious that other vendors are quite happy to let Opera's interpretation of pages differ from their own. Microsoft is not the best example for obvious reasons, but do you remember the debacle with their "Opera breaks" stylesheet? Not to mention the FAQ response on the use and planned use of standards in IE, which is nothing short of a hilarious read.


Quote:
Granted, the W3C specs are not perfect and I can think of several flaws. However, they are the closest thing to a set of strict regulations that should be followed. As soon as you allow deviations and own implementations, you're going to end up with the same mess where different browsers support different standards, or implement these in different ways that we are slowly moving away from. As such, I can understand and back Opera's decision to rigidly support that which is documented in the W3C specifications.
I'm saying that situation already exists, and in this confused state having one browser that rigidly adheres to the standards is no less damaging than having one that rigidly avoids them. What developers need is a minimum core of mandatory standards.
An example of this is the way that Opera implements the box model for table captions. Semantically, it's deliciously correct. However unlike most other browsers it doesn't lead to a caption that actually sits well as a part of the parent table.

Quote:
I'm not aware of this particular issue. Care to enlighten me?
It's the issue with determining table width at render time. You have the option of globally setting the width of columns or column groups (which requires foreknowledge of the contents of the table) or building the table structure after buffering the contents (which eats up the time that should be spent on the actually page render).
I am trying to find the details of that at the minute, as the specific markup involved eludes me at the moment. It's not a huge problem for designers who use tables as they are supposed to be used, but we all know that just doesn't happen in most cases.

Your web site is strong evidence that designing for Opera as if it were the browser king is a good practice to adopt, and I'm thinking that - personally - it might be a good strategy to get on board. Mind if I dissect the CSS?
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 19:15   #35
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Found it: it's the fixed/auto/inherit value for the table-layout property of table under CSS2.

It's not a massive problem unless you have a large and/or dynamic table, and is certainly better than the preceeding HTML controls, but there was plenty of time for a better solution to appear in CSS2.
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 19:30   #36
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayonara
My problem is not with any particular vendor, but with the current state of play across the market:- that the implementation of standards and practices (not just "support", which is a wholly unuseful concept) is languid and disorganised.
I see your point and I fully agree with you. The W3C of course has the goal of addressing this, which is why I favour Opera's course to rigidly follow it's recommendations.
Quote:
It's the issue with determining table width at render time.
You've piqued my interest. I'll have to fiddle around with it, although as you already stated - it has no direct application for anyone not using tables for layout.
Quote:
Your web site is strong evidence that designing for Opera as if it were the browser king is a good practice to adopt, and I'm thinking that - personally - it might be a good strategy to get on board. Mind if I dissect the CSS?
Not at all - be my guest.
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 19:35   #37
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

The problem the W3C has (well, all of us really) is that vendors can just pick up their toys and walk away. What they need is a big stick for hitting people with.

My wish list for future standards would include glue and protection for the margins of divs, not to replace but to complement float and clear. That would remove so many problems.
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 19:55   #38
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayonara
The problem the W3C has (well, all of us really) is that vendors can just pick up their toys and walk away. What they need is a big stick for hitting people with.
Frankly, the only browser vendor that can get away with ignoring standards is MS, and not even the law appears to be able to touch them. I do not hold out much hope in this regard
Quote:
My wish list for future standards would include glue and protection for the margins of divs, not to replace but to complement float and clear. That would remove so many problems.
Add better controls for vertical positioning, and I'm with you
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Unread 10 Jul 2004, 19:59   #39
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Add better controls for vertical positioning, and I'm with you
Being able to say "#this margin-right { glue: #that margin-left; vposition 0px; gap 0px }" would be super duper.
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Unread 12 Jul 2004, 12:30   #40
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Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
'Exaggeration' meen anything to you?
I mean in terms of general topics.

Find me another topic (football dosn't count) with more threads on it in the forum.
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Unread 12 Jul 2004, 12:35   #41
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MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Dace's love life
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Unread 12 Jul 2004, 12:57   #42
Dante Hicks
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Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: I've been using firefox and it sucks, here is why:

Liberty.
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