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Unread 26 Apr 2003, 23:51   #51
Amoruso
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The argument that Celtic beat 2 Premiership sides in europe so they must be good is a load of old balls, just because a team plays in that crappy 2 horse league does'nt make them a decent side.
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Unread 26 Apr 2003, 23:59   #52
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so, to put s back on topic, scottish football is still crap.
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 00:15   #53
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not crap, just not enough good teams
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 00:46   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by roadrunner_0
not crap, just not enough good teams
same problem as the english prem then eh
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 00:48   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by lokken
And Palace don't even own their ground. Ron Noades owns it, who was chairman of Brentford. Terrible for a club with the 5 best strikers in div 1 according to their chairman *smirk*.
According to the South London Press, Ron Noads wants to take Palace over again. Which I'm sure will be a great success, especialy since he is currently suing them....
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 01:23   #56
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Liverpool came second last year Kura. They pipped man utd on the last day of the season, and man utd had to play in the qualifying rounds.

(I remember Zalaeyagerzag 1-0 Manchester United very well.)

To the basle point, Celtic should not have lost. We are too good a side.

However, on saying that, Basle arent exactly terrible. They didnt lose to liverpool. (3-3 and 1-0 was it?). They beat Valencia, and someone else half decent too. Then they gave Juventus a run for their money, and i believe they scored first against Man Utd in both the games (which man utd won, but they were tight)

Frankly as each game Basle played went by it became more and more respectable to lose to them, they have a number of good players.

I suppose Man utd fans are going to try and tell me that Zalaeyegerzag or Maccabi Haifi (3-0 anybody?) are a better team than Basle

ALSO, stop blaming celtic victories on other teams "playing bad" - they fkn well played bad because they WERENT allowed to play well by the celtic defence.
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 01:36   #57
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Celtic did well to reach the final and i for one will be supporting them in that final.
But, when you lot can go out and prove that it's not a one off getting this far in Europe, or having good runs in Europe every season, then come back and spout some more on here.
And yes that zal whoever side are crap and even as a Man Utd supported i found it funny that we lost to them .
As for you lot thinking that you'd just walk into Premiership and do well, you should think again. There aren't such things as easy games like you get in the Scottish league. Half the sides up there no one has even heard of!

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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 01:43   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rommel
Celtic did well to reach the final and i for one will be supporting them in that final.
But, when you lot can go out and prove that it's not a one off getting this far in Europe, or having good runs in Europe every season, then come back and spout some more on here.
And yes that zal whoever side are crap and even as a Man Utd supported i found it funny that we lost to them .
As for you lot thinking that you'd just walk into Premiership and do well, you should think again. There aren't such things as easy games like you get in the Scottish league. Half the sides up there no one has even heard of!
How can it be a "one off" ? Each game is over two legs.

See when we talk of celtic "walking into the premiership", what i mean personally is that they would be challenging for a CL spot initially, and within 5 years they would be mounting an attempt on the title.
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 01:51   #59
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by one-off i mean getting to the final stages of European competitions like quarter finals + for several successive seasons

edit: by getting there for several successive seasons and not just once like they have this year - so only time will tell if they can do it for a few years in a row or not.
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 01:58   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by Deffeh
Frankly as each game Basle played went by it became more and more respectable to lose to them, they have a number of good players.

BERNT HAAS

BERNT HAAS

BERNT

HAAAS
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 02:13   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rommel
by one-off i mean getting to the final stages of European competitions like quarter finals + for several successive seasons

edit: by getting there for several successive seasons and not just once like they have this year - so only time will tell if they can do it for a few years in a row or not.

Last season , Celtic lost in the 1st Group stage on Goal Difference to Juventus & Valencia.

Rangers went to the Quarter Finals of the UEFA Cup.

This season Celtic are in the Final of the UEFA Cup.
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 10:44   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurashima
Last season , Celtic lost in the 1st Group stage on Goal Difference to Juventus & Valencia.

Rangers went to the Quarter Finals of the UEFA Cup.

This season Celtic are in the Final of the UEFA Cup.
Rangers aren't Celtic
1st group stage isn't a good run in Europe

and i said repeat a good run for a few seasons then start bragging
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 11:02   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rommel
1st group stage isn't a good run in Europe
Going out on goal difference vs Juventus and Valencia is an achievement that several other English teams who play in the CL would've had trouble matching, so in that regard, it is good enough to compete within the English top rankings.
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 11:04   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rommel
by one-off i mean getting to the final stages of European competitions like quarter finals + for several successive seasons

edit: by getting there for several successive seasons and not just once like they have this year - so only time will tell if they can do it for a few years in a row or not.
By that definition Man UTD are the only good team in the prem.

Imo if Celtic/Rangers came into the Premiership they would be challenging for a UEFA cup spot.
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 11:44   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leshy
Going out on goal difference vs Juventus and Valencia is an achievement that several other English teams who play in the CL would've had trouble matching, so in that regard, it is good enough to compete within the English top rankings.
Considering Liverpool reached the quarters and lost to the finalists, and went through their first stage with 7 points. (Incidently, Boavista were group winners with 8 points) and celtic went out with 9 points. The other three games we were humiliated by rosenborg, anhialated by Porto.. and in the game in Turin against Juventus by all accounts we were all over them, and we were robbed first of a victory, and then of a point by a diving ****face who goes by the name of Nicola Amoruso.

Then we lost to Valencia on penalties after matching them and then some.


You see, you are only willing to judge celtic on their european games - which even this season (a long long run) has been what, 16 games? if that. And even then, you call it a fluke that weve outplayed good team after good team.

With the team Celtic have, i feel theyd be in the UEFA Cup / CL place race right now.

With the stadium, the fanbase, the resources and youth academy celtic have, as well as the existing talent, Celtic would be mounting an attempt on the Premiership in around 5.
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 11:59   #66
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How can you launch a claim on Prem in 5yrs?

a) you're in Scotland
b) your only decent striker is retiring at end of next season?
c) Hartson and Sutton and Prem rejects (and yes Hartson did score a good goal against Liverpool and has looked good in Europe this year, but that doesn't make him Prem standard)

Incase you didn't notice - Man U went to Turin and beat a full-strength Juventus side 3-0, a Juventus side which is now somehow in the CL semi-finals!

League games are played completely differently than European games, different pace, approach etc. Just because a Scottish side does well one season in Europe you automatically assume that you'd do well in our Premiership

When you can do well in the CL year after year like the likes of Real Madrid, Valencia, Man Utd, La Coruna and Barcelona have done over the last few years, then come back spouting how good Celtic are - until such time you have a lot to prove imo
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 13:19   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rommel
Hartson and Sutton and Prem rejects
I will remind you that Sutton has won the Premiership. He is a fairly high class reject if you ask me.

a) He is saying if they moved into the Premiership they would be challenging for the title in 5 years, them being in Scotland has no relevance.
b) I'm sure they have resources to replace him.
c) Arsenal cant put great runs together in Europe, however it doesnt mean they cant win the Premiership. Blackburn did sweet FA in europe but we challenged for the title in 3 consequtive seasons (92-95). How great you are or arent in the european competitions does not necessarily represent how well you will do in the Premiership.
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 13:33   #68
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Re: So , Scottish Football is crap , eh?
Quote:
Originally posted by Kurashima
Celtic would walk into the Premiership. And Rangers with them.
That's the funniest thing you've ever said :)
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 13:34   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rommel
How can you launch a claim on Prem in 5yrs?

a) you're in Scotland
b) your only decent striker is retiring at end of next season?
c) Hartson and Sutton and Prem rejects (and yes Hartson did score a good goal against Liverpool and has looked good in Europe this year, but that doesn't make him Prem standard)

Incase you didn't notice - Man U went to Turin and beat a full-strength Juventus side 3-0, a Juventus side which is now somehow in the CL semi-finals!

League games are played completely differently than European games, different pace, approach etc. Just because a Scottish side does well one season in Europe you automatically assume that you'd do well in our Premiership

When you can do well in the CL year after year like the likes of Real Madrid, Valencia, Man Utd, La Coruna and Barcelona have done over the last few years, then come back spouting how good Celtic are - until such time you have a lot to prove imo
So because Celtic arent quite as successful as manchester united - one of the most successful teams of all time - they arent "good" ? I suppose Real Madrid arent "good" because they dont always win La Liga. And i mean, Juventus - didnt make it to the quarters for a few seasons - lets forget where they are now, and how often theyve won the CL / European Cup.

"Launching an attempt on the premiership" is of course dependant on us being there. In a scenario if celtic were in the premiership next season etc.

a) Cardiff city are welsh. If they made it to the premiership, thered be no outcry. Whats the difference?

b) Hes not retiring, hes moving on, perhaps to england. Teams have wanted him for years. And hes not just decent, hes incredible.

c) Chris Sutton. Premiership Reject? JC might have something to say about that. Had a bad time at chelsea, hes came back from it and played brilliantly.

I suppose you've forgotten all about the SAS pairing, eh.

John Hartson. Such a premiership reject that he returns to Anfield and hits a cracker of a goal past One of the best keepers in the premiership. I cant find his scoring record for Arsenal, but i know it was good.

Yet people like you call him a premiership reject just because you can, just because he plays in scotland. You arent willing to give them a chance, or evaluate his abilities on a neutral level. Even now when we won 1-0 2-0 against blackburn and 1-1 2-0 against liverpool you are finding excuses why we won, why these two teams (5th & 7th in the premiership no less) combined to score one goal against rab douglas.

All year england fans go on about the left sided midfield problem. Yet alan thompson (7 goals this year, 3 of them in europe, including one at anfield) has been stellar for celtic, a great crosser, a hard worker, and more importantly, hes actually left footed. Hes not even MENTIONED in the hoards of players that england have tried, or considered for the ML slot. Because he was only "ok" at Villa, at Celtic, he must be a premiership reject, surely! I mean its not as if a player could play well for a team outside of england, heaven forbid! Hes actually just put away a penalty at Ibrox as well to give us the lead in the Old firm, so i think hes a pretty good pressure handler too.

I dont see how its justifiable to say Celtic couldnt cut it in the top 8 of the premiership.
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 13:40   #70
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The two big teams imho would do pretty well in English football as they have an extremely large fanbase, good stadiums and quite a bit of money. Whether they would be any better than, say, Liverpool and Everton, is another question.
HOWEVER the whole of scottish football would suffer then as the smaller teams would lose the revenue of playing the big teams especially in the scottish cups. They wouldn't be able to afford the travel costs of joining the English leagues and in any case most would probably sink into non-league obscurity.
Of course there is the Wales model of things where you have 3 main teams in the English league and the rest have there own league. But those teams are all semi-professional at best and the clubs in scotland would not like the idea.

So Scottish footbal is crap. But the top two sides are pretty good.
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 13:46   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ste
The two big teams imho would do pretty well in English football as they have an extremely large fanbase, good stadiums and quite a bit of money. Whether they would be any better than, say, Liverpool and Everton, is another question.
HOWEVER the whole of scottish football would suffer then as the smaller teams would lose the revenue of playing the big teams especially in the scottish cups. They wouldn't be able to afford the travel costs of joining the English leagues and in any case most would probably sink into non-league obscurity.
Of course there is the Wales model of things where you have 3 main teams in the English league and the rest have there own league. But those teams are all semi-professional at best and the clubs in scotland would not like the idea.

So Scottish footbal is crap. But the top two sides are pretty good.
Happy?
Your conclusion is accurate. Roughly. Scottish football is crap at the moment. It was only 16 years ago that Alex Ferguson's Aberdeen won a couple of titles and of course the Cup winners cup though. Nowadays though its unlikely anyone other than celtic or rangers will ever win the title.

Another seperate debate is whether Scottish football would be better or worse without the old firm. Thats for another thread though.
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 14:26   #72
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Maccabi Haifi (3-0 anybody?)
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 14:27   #73
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How can it be a "one off" ? Each game is over two legs.
Drawing a game then winning a game won't win you the Premiership. You need to win most games.
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 14:38   #74
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Originally posted by Deffeh

Another seperate debate is whether Scottish football would be better or worse without the old firm. Thats for another thread though.
both i'd say. They'd lost the money generated from playing the big Scottish teams like Celtic and Rangers, but they'd get money in from playing in Europe.
Without going into detail i'd say it'd be worse of without them financially at least - but that's for another thread like you said
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 14:44   #75
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Originally posted by Rommel
both i'd say. They'd lost the money generated from playing the big Scottish teams like Celtic and Rangers, but they'd get money in from playing in Europe.
they would lose in the first qualifying round every year - like the welsh and Irish teams. It would cost them loads to get to the other side of Europe anyway!
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 14:47   #76
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ste
they would lose in the first qualifying round every year - like the welsh and Irish teams. It would cost them loads to get to the other side of Europe anyway!
yep more than likely but i was just saying that they may get some money from it - you know the stupid amounts of money seen for just qualifying for Europe these days so who knows
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 17:28   #77
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 21:38   #78
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Re: Re: So , Scottish Football is crap , eh?
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That's the funniest thing you've ever said
Only because ive never said "Danae is stunningly attractive"
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 21:43   #79
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Man U went to Turin and beat a full-strength Juventus side 3-0
Wasn't that the game where Juventus' half selection was in bed with the flu?
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Unread 27 Apr 2003, 23:50   #80
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Wasn't that the game where Juventus' half selection was in bed with the flu?
no that was the game at Old Trafford where United were lucky to win 2-1 i think
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Unread 28 Apr 2003, 13:46   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by Deffeh
So because Celtic arent quite as successful as manchester united - one of the most successful teams of all time - they arent "good" ? I suppose Real Madrid arent "good" because they dont always win La Liga. And i mean, Juventus - didnt make it to the quarters for a few seasons - lets forget where they are now, and how often theyve won the CL / European Cup.

"Launching an attempt on the premiership" is of course dependant on us being there. In a scenario if celtic were in the premiership next season etc.

a) Cardiff city are welsh. If they made it to the premiership, thered be no outcry. Whats the difference?

b) Hes not retiring, hes moving on, perhaps to england. Teams have wanted him for years. And hes not just decent, hes incredible.

c) Chris Sutton. Premiership Reject? JC might have something to say about that. Had a bad time at chelsea, hes came back from it and played brilliantly.

I suppose you've forgotten all about the SAS pairing, eh.

John Hartson. Such a premiership reject that he returns to Anfield and hits a cracker of a goal past One of the best keepers in the premiership. I cant find his scoring record for Arsenal, but i know it was good.

Yet people like you call him a premiership reject just because you can, just because he plays in scotland. You arent willing to give them a chance, or evaluate his abilities on a neutral level. Even now when we won 1-0 2-0 against blackburn and 1-1 2-0 against liverpool you are finding excuses why we won, why these two teams (5th & 7th in the premiership no less) combined to score one goal against rab douglas.

All year england fans go on about the left sided midfield problem. Yet alan thompson (7 goals this year, 3 of them in europe, including one at anfield) has been stellar for celtic, a great crosser, a hard worker, and more importantly, hes actually left footed. Hes not even MENTIONED in the hoards of players that england have tried, or considered for the ML slot. Because he was only "ok" at Villa, at Celtic, he must be a premiership reject, surely! I mean its not as if a player could play well for a team outside of england, heaven forbid! Hes actually just put away a penalty at Ibrox as well to give us the lead in the Old firm, so i think hes a pretty good pressure handler too.

I dont see how its justifiable to say Celtic couldnt cut it in the top 8 of the premiership.
Sunderland would crush Celtic, no fear
Kevin Kyle would kill the big wuss Hartson in a fight
rar!
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Unread 28 Apr 2003, 14:04   #82
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Kevin Kyle ((((((((((((((


There are many bad times as a Scotland fan, but the worst of the whole lot was seeing Kevin Kyle put on the Scotland #9 jersey.

He brought disgrace to new level in a below par team.
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Unread 28 Apr 2003, 16:13   #83
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Kevin Kyle would be the luckiest man alive if Bert Konterman was Scottish.
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Unread 28 Apr 2003, 19:27   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by Reidy
Sunderland would crush Celtic, no fear
Kevin Kyle would kill the big wuss Hartson in a fight
rar!
He certainly volleyed O'Brien's head well on Saturday!
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Unread 29 Apr 2003, 14:11   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by Deffeh
So because Celtic arent quite as successful as manchester united - one of the most successful teams of all time - they arent "good" ? I suppose Real Madrid arent "good" because they dont always win La Liga. And i mean, Juventus - didnt make it to the quarters for a few seasons - lets forget where they are now, and how often theyve won the CL / European Cup.

"Launching an attempt on the premiership" is of course dependant on us being there. In a scenario if celtic were in the premiership next season etc.

a) Cardiff city are welsh. If they made it to the premiership, thered be no outcry. Whats the difference?

b) Hes not retiring, hes moving on, perhaps to england. Teams have wanted him for years. And hes not just decent, hes incredible.

c) Chris Sutton. Premiership Reject? JC might have something to say about that. Had a bad time at chelsea, hes came back from it and played brilliantly.

I suppose you've forgotten all about the SAS pairing, eh.

John Hartson. Such a premiership reject that he returns to Anfield and hits a cracker of a goal past One of the best keepers in the premiership. I cant find his scoring record for Arsenal, but i know it was good.

Yet people like you call him a premiership reject just because you can, just because he plays in scotland. You arent willing to give them a chance, or evaluate his abilities on a neutral level. Even now when we won 1-0 2-0 against blackburn and 1-1 2-0 against liverpool you are finding excuses why we won, why these two teams (5th & 7th in the premiership no less) combined to score one goal against rab douglas.

All year england fans go on about the left sided midfield problem. Yet alan thompson (7 goals this year, 3 of them in europe, including one at anfield) has been stellar for celtic, a great crosser, a hard worker, and more importantly, hes actually left footed. Hes not even MENTIONED in the hoards of players that england have tried, or considered for the ML slot. Because he was only "ok" at Villa, at Celtic, he must be a premiership reject, surely! I mean its not as if a player could play well for a team outside of england, heaven forbid! Hes actually just put away a penalty at Ibrox as well to give us the lead in the Old firm, so i think hes a pretty good pressure handler too.

I dont see how its justifiable to say Celtic couldnt cut it in the top 8 of the premiership.
What alot of you need to remember is that the UEFA cup only requires you to win a handful of games. Games which your normally the underdog and can go out and play your own game with no Pressure. A premiership campaign would require you to play 38 games, all of which would be tough but with many games expected to be walk overs due to your rep. BUT no game is really a walk over in the prem, Every team is a danger and can cause an upset and they all play at a level much greater than that found in the scottish league.

For Celtic and Rangers to be able to even challenge for a Uefa Cup place it would require them to throw vast amounts of money at the problem simply to get hold of enough quality players with ample top class experiance that were not in the twilights of their career's. And as we have seen at fulham, leeds ect Money doesnt quarentee success and such over spending can actually be the clubs downfall.

If Celtic and Rangers wish to make a smooth transition to the EPL at any point they really should be looking at ways they can help increase the quality of the SPL so they actually get some games outside the old firm ones. Once the SPL quality is greatly increased so they get 20+ tough games a season as opposed to the 4 they currently have then they will be in a much better position to enter the EPL and be a force to be reckonned with.

As for your comment about the fact there would be no outcry if Cardiff made the EPL, your totally right. THE DIFFERENCE howevre is Cardiff would do it the hard way instead of being placed immediatly into the EPL.

Also on the Alan Thompson matter, its not that his form was poor in the past its the fact he DOESNT play enough top class games. Its bad enough when alot of our players dont get a chance to play against the best the world has to offer (We have Owen, Heskey, Gerrard ect stuck playing the lesser European teams in the UEFA cup, We have the Likes of Smith and Mills at Leeds, Rooney at Everton, Vassell at Villa ect with very little experiance of playing Internationals or European games, We have the likes of Southgate who while experianced internationally hasnt regularry played agaisnt the best as his teams have always struggled to break into Europe, Even when teams do make the CL only the Man Utd Players really get the chance to play in the big games against the big players as the others seem to get star struck and not play how they can) we do not need a player who is only Garenteed 4 tough games a season.

Oh and Finnally FIFA have indicated in the past IF celtic and Rangers were to join the EPL then we would lose the justification each nation in the UK has for having seperate teams. Do you really want a UK team Rather than an English or Scottish or Welsh or N.Irish teams. Yes would be great for England finnally we would get a Left Footed Midfielder with enough skill and experiance to cut it BUT apart from Giggs how many other players would make their way into the Squad over the English ones (Bellemy and Ferguson being the only ones that jump to midn immediatly) so its not really that great for each of the nations. Not to mention I'm English, my football alligence is to England not to teh United Kingdom and I'm sure alot of people feel the same
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Unread 29 Apr 2003, 17:12   #86
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Quote:
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What alot of you need to remember is that the UEFA cup only requires you to win a handful of games. Games which your normally the underdog and can go out and play your own game with no Pressure. A premiership campaign would require you to play 38 games, all of which would be tough but with many games expected to be walk overs due to your rep. BUT no game is really a walk over in the prem, Every team is a danger and can cause an upset and they all play at a level much greater than that found in the scottish league.

For Celtic and Rangers to be able to even challenge for a Uefa Cup place it would require them to throw vast amounts of money at the problem simply to get hold of enough quality players with ample top class experiance that were not in the twilights of their career's. And as we have seen at fulham, leeds ect Money doesnt quarentee success and such over spending can actually be the clubs downfall.

If Celtic and Rangers wish to make a smooth transition to the EPL at any point they really should be looking at ways they can help increase the quality of the SPL so they actually get some games outside the old firm ones. Once the SPL quality is greatly increased so they get 20+ tough games a season as opposed to the 4 they currently have then they will be in a much better position to enter the EPL and be a force to be reckonned with.

As for your comment about the fact there would be no outcry if Cardiff made the EPL, your totally right. THE DIFFERENCE howevre is Cardiff would do it the hard way instead of being placed immediatly into the EPL.

Also on the Alan Thompson matter, its not that his form was poor in the past its the fact he DOESNT play enough top class games. Its bad enough when alot of our players dont get a chance to play against the best the world has to offer (We have Owen, Heskey, Gerrard ect stuck playing the lesser European teams in the UEFA cup, We have the Likes of Smith and Mills at Leeds, Rooney at Everton, Vassell at Villa ect with very little experiance of playing Internationals or European games, We have the likes of Southgate who while experianced internationally hasnt regularry played agaisnt the best as his teams have always struggled to break into Europe, Even when teams do make the CL only the Man Utd Players really get the chance to play in the big games against the big players as the others seem to get star struck and not play how they can) we do not need a player who is only Garenteed 4 tough games a season.

Oh and Finnally FIFA have indicated in the past IF celtic and Rangers were to join the EPL then we would lose the justification each nation in the UK has for having seperate teams. Do you really want a UK team Rather than an English or Scottish or Welsh or N.Irish teams. Yes would be great for England finnally we would get a Left Footed Midfielder with enough skill and experiance to cut it BUT apart from Giggs how many other players would make their way into the Squad over the English ones (Bellemy and Ferguson being the only ones that jump to midn immediatly) so its not really that great for each of the nations. Not to mention I'm English, my football alligence is to England not to teh United Kingdom and I'm sure alot of people feel the same
This was an excellent well written post. But i have to take you up on a few points.

Im aware the premiership is not easy,and there are no guarentees. Dont get me wrong. You look down the bottom of the league and you see Bolton, Leeds, and West Ham fighting against relegation. Are you kidding me? Okocha, Defoe, and Viduka in a relegation scrap?

But celtic are a good enough side to cope with this. Its a different tempo, i know, having to give it your all in almost every game in the league, 30 of the 38 being "big" games. Theres no argument teams play on a different level to the SPL. But, SPL teams are a lot more physical. Even when your winning, and have skill in excess in an SPL game, its tough tiring work. The way the SPL works is basically every team has 2 or 3 "good quality" skilful players. Then they fill the rest of the pitch with hoofters, concentrated on long balls and physical play. Its stamina sapping.

I dont see why Celtic couldnt make a UEFA cup place with their current team. Douglas is a competent keeper, but he never has much to do behind Valgaeren (Man utd wanted him for a while, experienced international), Mjallby (Swedish captain), and Balde (****ing awesome, if you saw him against liverpool youll know that, hes been like that all season). Agathe on the right hasnt really recaptured his form of last season when he took Juventus Porto and Valencia to pieces, but hes still a great player to have - probably the fastest player in britain right now. Thompson on the left has like i said, been fantastic all season. Lambert is the holding dig-in player that every team needs, and hes been excellent this season. Lennon is a weak link. He was excellent the two seasonbs prior, but his form has slumped this season. Petrov is the Bulgarian captain at 22 years of age, a great free kick taker etc - hes superb. Sutton is still doing the business and will for quite few years yet, hes as good a "hold up" striker as there is in the premiership. Larsson needs no summary from me.

and i mean, the rest of the squad.. Hedman (swedish int. keeper), Laursen (solid defender, young), Hartson, Maloney (one of the next big things in british football), Healy (rep ire int.), and all sorts of utilities players that are capable of doing a job

This is of course the squad that we have BEFORE wed get the extra revenue from playing in the EPL. Spending big as such wouldnt be the problem considering how little money Celtic and Rangers take in a year from the SPL, even mid tablle stagnation would be a goldmine.

What you dont see is that Scottish football is mutually dead because of the Old firm. If Celtic and Rangers were being challenged, the whole EPL move thing would probably never have came up in the first place. Because of the old firm, the other SPL clubs have usually 1 or 2 UEFA cup places to fight for between them - and even then in the very early rounds of the competition. Whenever a new player arises in non Old firm SPL he is snatched for relative pennies, because the other clubs cant afford to say no to Rangers and Celtic. Laursen cost £2 million which was a fair price for hibs. But from the same club Celtic stole Agathe. Douglas came on the cheap from Dundee. Sylla on the cheap from St Johnstone. Fernandez from livingston.
Rangers are prolly worse. McCann stole from hearts, Dodds from Dundee United (hes back there now), Thompson from Dundee United, Cannigia from Dundee, and others its hard to remember. Even now anyone who plays well outside the Old firm is an old firm target. Ian Murray, James McFadden etc. And while the other clubs arent making money they have no choice but to sell all their good players and start from scratch.

Also, this effect creates Glory hunters. People from all over Scotland support Celtic or Rangers because no one else ever wins much. If they left, the league would be competitive, and people might support their local teams thus bring revenue. Celtic are my "local team" as such as im actually from Glasgow, but if they left for the EPL id adopt Motherwell as my Scottish club, because ive been to see them a few times and i quite like them. Im sure others would do the same.

Going straight into the EPL is probably unfair, yes. Probably if the old firm took a bankrupted Division 1/ Division 2's teams place - theres no reason why they shouldnt consider this as a route.

Now, i know alan thompson isnt exposed much, but i think hes proved himself over a number of tough games that hes up to the challenge. Also, if friendlies arent for getting squads together and trying out new players that dont often play at a big level, then what are they for? Surely hes earned a berth in a friendly squad, where Sven can assess his talent against the likes of Sinclair for the left sided position. He doesnt even neccesarily have to play him for long, just needs to see him train, see what he can do.

Also, i know it is "just the SPL" but a cross is a cross. There isnt a HUGE gap in talent between the SPL and EPL in terms of closing a crosser down so he doesnt have time to pick out a man, because its a fairly basic attribute of a right back / right mid.

FIFA have changed rules in the past. If cardiff can play in england and wales and England can be seperate footballing nations, why cant celtic and rangers play in England, and Scotland and england be seperate footballing nations?

FIFA have wanted Britain to play as a "country" for a long long time for conveniance sake. Nobody would like that, granted, but i see it as only a minor consideration.
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Unread 29 Apr 2003, 17:47   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by Deffeh

Going straight into the EPL is probably unfair, yes. Probably if the old firm took a bankrupted Division 1/ Division 2's teams place - theres no reason why they shouldnt consider this as a route.

If the old firm took a bankrupted league sides place i can see sides who were relegated or who just missed out on promotion being extremely annoyed. I mean as an example, say a Div 2 side becomes bankrupt, and Celtic take their place from next season, how do you think a side relegated from Div 1 would feel when they could've let the side who finished 3rd or 4th from bottom stay up and the side who lost the play-off final in Div 3 could've gone up to take their place, hence shifting 1 up from all previous leagues to make up the numbers. This imo would annoy the lower league clubs.

Quote:
Originally posted by Deffeh

FIFA have changed rules in the past. If cardiff can play in england and wales and England can be seperate footballing nations, why cant celtic and rangers play in England, and Scotland and england be seperate footballing nations?
I don't know how long they've been playing in the English leagues, but i've always known them as playing in them. They're the only non-English team that has won te FA Cup and that was in the 1920s, but like i said i don't know if they've been playing in England since 1927 or earlier or after etc. At that time they were one of the biggest clubs in the UK, which leads me to believe they've been playing in the English leagues since then - but i don't know for certain that that's the case.

Quote:
Originally posted by Deffeh

FIFA have wanted Britain to play as a "country" for a long long time for conveniance sake. Nobody would like that, granted, but i see it as only a minor consideration.
If the old firm playing in the EPL means the end of the English national team then you won't be playing in the EPL in the foreseeable future.

I think it'd be unfair if you came straight into the EPL or even Div 1, if you want to play in England then start in non-league football and work your way up through the leagues ala Wimbledon. Harsh i know, but that's the only way you won't have clubs moaning.

Even better still you could actually give the other SPL clubs some money to make your league more competitive. You even more or less admit to the old firm weakening the league by signing the smaller clubs better players for next to nothing.

In response to the title of the thread, yes Scottish football is still crap and by the old firm leaving the SPL (which i can't see happening), you'll be weakening it even further and the SPL would probably cease to exist as there would be little of no TV revenue - i mean who wants to see Motherwell v Dundee???
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Unread 29 Apr 2003, 18:29   #88
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Celtic and Rangers, like almost all football clubs, are in debt. This is one of the main reasons they want to move to the EPL, thus there is no charity money to give to other SPL clubs.

Not sure about the other thing you said. Can see why teams might be a little dissapointed, but if you come 18th then you pretty much cant have a lot of complaints when you are relegated after all.

Also, Motherwell vs Dundee WILL be an exciting game when theres something at stake. Given a little bit of time the overall quality fo the SPL will increase. All clubs are roughly the same size and stature, if you were to pick a winner next season from the other 10 clubs, youd be as well picking a name out of a hat, seriously.
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Unread 29 Apr 2003, 19:45   #89
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If the International Teams were to merge, then the FA's would definitely not allow it; they would not give up 3 FIFA seats just to placate 2 medium sized teams, on the grand scale of things.
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Unread 29 Apr 2003, 19:52   #90
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If the International Teams were to merge, then the FA's would definitely not allow it; they would not give up 3 FIFA seats just to placate 2 medium sized teams, on the grand scale of things.
no ****, but fifa wouldnt go through with it. they wouldnt be able to.
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Unread 30 Apr 2003, 10:57   #91
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Is Scotland a country? :eek:
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Unread 30 Apr 2003, 11:29   #92
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If celtic and rangers were any good at all they would do well (second stage minimum) in the CL over a number of years.
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Unread 30 Apr 2003, 11:43   #93
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no ****, but fifa wouldnt go through with it. they wouldnt be able to.
Although having said that, it's not like FIFA actually HAS much power any more.
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Unread 30 Apr 2003, 12:27   #94
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The Liverpool chairman was saying something about Rangers and Celtic joining the premiership the other week. It'd have to go to a vote of the current clubs in the premiership at the time and since it would adversley affect the placing a lot of the teams would end up on at the finish of the season he said there was no way it would ever happen. "Like turkeys voting for Christmas" I believe was the phrase he used.
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Unread 30 Apr 2003, 14:46   #95
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Quote:
Originally posted by Deffeh
no ****, but fifa wouldnt go through with it. they wouldnt be able to.
I think youd find they would simply because they would have to. Failure to impose any kind of penalty against the nations would set a precedent that they couldnt allow to happen.

You would open the floodgates to allow the likes of Ajax, PSV and Feyanood (Sorry if spelling is wrong) joining the German league, or the top Danish, Finish and Norweign teams joining the Sweedish league or even the creation of the much talked about Super leagues.

FIFA would be forced to impose something to say "you do this and your be punished" to discourage such issues.


And also as mentioned the EPL clubs wont agree to it. They cant even get an agreement that was agreed during the formation of the EPL to reduce the number of teams into action becuase the clubs dont want to risk their position. I also doubt the Div 1 clubs would agree upon them joining there simply becuase the teams would fear for their chance of being promoted to the prem where they can make the big money.

ofc Div 2 or lower may agree upon it. Attendances and TV fees are pretty low for these clubs and the addition of rangers and celtic could be a huge boost to the lower levels but how long will your players stay without the chance of european football as it will destroy their international chances.

Also I would like to add that Sutton really isnt a great striker. He was made to look good at Blackburn due to the players surrounding him (Shearer in particular). He also was made to look good at Norwich where the name of the game was long ball but this was only due to the fact he knows how to handle himself in the air due to the fact hes actually a DEFENDER. I'm not sure if you remember but he only was played up front becuase Norwich has a striker shortage due to injury, he was moved up front where he scored his fair share of goals and setup a fair few as the ball was hoofed upfield. BUT if you saw his form at chelsea at a team that wasnt playing well as a team but played the ball around the field in a nice manner (ie no long balls) he really did struggle and looked out of his depth
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Unread 30 Apr 2003, 18:06   #96
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Quote:
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I think youd find they would simply because they would have to. Failure to impose any kind of penalty against the nations would set a precedent that they couldnt allow to happen.

You would open the floodgates to allow the likes of Ajax, PSV and Feyanood (Sorry if spelling is wrong) joining the German league, or the top Danish, Finish and Norweign teams joining the Sweedish league or even the creation of the much talked about Super leagues.

FIFA would be forced to impose something to say "you do this and your be punished" to discourage such issues.


And also as mentioned the EPL clubs wont agree to it. They cant even get an agreement that was agreed during the formation of the EPL to reduce the number of teams into action becuase the clubs dont want to risk their position. I also doubt the Div 1 clubs would agree upon them joining there simply becuase the teams would fear for their chance of being promoted to the prem where they can make the big money.

ofc Div 2 or lower may agree upon it. Attendances and TV fees are pretty low for these clubs and the addition of rangers and celtic could be a huge boost to the lower levels but how long will your players stay without the chance of european football as it will destroy their international chances.

Also I would like to add that Sutton really isnt a great striker. He was made to look good at Blackburn due to the players surrounding him (Shearer in particular). He also was made to look good at Norwich where the name of the game was long ball but this was only due to the fact he knows how to handle himself in the air due to the fact hes actually a DEFENDER. I'm not sure if you remember but he only was played up front becuase Norwich has a striker shortage due to injury, he was moved up front where he scored his fair share of goals and setup a fair few as the ball was hoofed upfield. BUT if you saw his form at chelsea at a team that wasnt playing well as a team but played the ball around the field in a nice manner (ie no long balls) he really did struggle and looked out of his depth
and when valgaeren and mjallby were injured, he played in defence for us

And when we needed more strength, he played in midfield (versus blackburn)

JC would probably agree he was the best player over the two legs.
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Unread 30 Apr 2003, 18:19   #97
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ofc Div 2 or lower may agree upon it. Attendances and TV fees are pretty low for these clubs and the addition of rangers and celtic could be a huge boost to the lower levels but how long will your players stay without the chance of european football as it will destroy their international chances.
The lower division teams wouldn't like it - especially the ones from the south. Can you imagine teams like Plymouth and Exeter having to do the 400 mile (estimated) trip up to Scotland on a saturday morning? There was a reason why there used to be a 3rd division North and South and a possible return to that format is being discussed.

England have got more professional clubs than any other country in the world and that is one reason why all the lower league clubs are going bankrupt. In Italy they even allow reserve teams to play in Serie B. We don't need any more.
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Unread 30 Apr 2003, 18:31   #98
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JC would probably agree he was the best player over the two legs.
I'd agree on that too actually.
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Unread 30 Apr 2003, 19:14   #99
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Chris Sutton was indeed the best player in the Celtic/rovers matches.

When Sutton was at Rovers Kenny Dalglish once said "Sutton is the best defender i have ever worked with". He is a very good defender, and sometimes slotted in at the back for us, as i'm sure he probably does for Celtic, but he is also a very good striker.

We bought Sutton for what was then a record signing in England, and it was money very well spent. He was half of what imo has been the best partnership ever in the Premiership, the SAS. He holds the ball up well, he can finish, he is big and strong, he is very good in the air, he could play in most Premiership teams without a problem. Everyone thinks Rovers fell away after Shearer left, but we didnt. Sutton became the main (only) striker and fired us into a UEFA spot. He isnt a 2nd rate striker.

The only thing i dont like about Sutton is that he jumped ship as soon as we got relegated, that lost him a lot of respect from Rovers fans.
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