How do you feel about the new face of Britain?

[CrashTester]

More diverse, caring and single - the new face of Britain

Whites in minority in two boroughs, census reveals

John Carvel, social affairs editor
Friday February 14, 2003
The Guardian

The first places in Britain where white people are no longer in the majority were officially identified yesterday when the government disclosed detailed results from the 2001 census.
The office for national statistics said black and Asian people comprised 60.6% of the population in the London borough of Newham, and 54.7% in the London borough of Brent. Sixteen other London boroughs had black and Asian minorities that accounted for a quarter or more of the population.

Among the facts and figures that will reshape perceptions of Britain's multi-racial society, it emerged that Leicester was the city-wide authority with the largest proportion of non-whites: its mainly Indian minority group comprised more than a third of the population. In Slough the black and Asian minority was 36.3%, in Birmingham 29.6% and in Luton 28.1%.

John Pullinger, director of economic and social statistics, said the minority ethnic population in England rose from 6% in 1991 to 9% in 2001. But part of this increase may have been due to a new classification that allowed people to record themselves as mixed race. He said that some of these 823,000 people might have described themselves as white in 1991.

The commission for racial equality welcomed the figures as an important contribution to its campaign to substitute myths with facts.

Beverley Bernard, the commission's acting chairwoman, said many commentators over-estimated the ethnic minority population. A recent Mori poll found people thought it was 22.5% of the total, when the census showed across the UK as a whole it was only 7.6% - about 4.5 million people. The first big wave of information from the £200m census showed large areas of the country with almost all-white populations, headed by Berwick-upon-Tweed and Alnwick in Northumberland where the black and Asian minority was 0.4%. In Sedgefield, Co Durham - the constituency of Tony Blair - it was 0.7%.

In England and Wales, 2% of the population describe themselves as Indian, with Leicester at the top (25.7%). Pakistanis make up 1.4%, with Bradford having the largest population in this category (14.5%). Bangladeshis form 0.5% of the population, with Tower Hamlets in London having the most (33.4%).

Skewed


Other groups include 1.1% of people who describe themselves as black Caribbean and 0.9% black African. The district with the most black Caribbeans was Lewisham in south London with 12.3%. The proportion of English-born people in England has fallen 2% to 87%, and the proportion of Welsh-born in Wales also fell 2% to 75%. Scotland was not included in the census.

Britain is changing in other ways, too. For the first time the 2001 census asked an optional question about religion. Answers may have been skewed by just over 4 million people refusing to answer, but the result showed 37.3 million in England and Wales describing themselves as Christian (71.7%), 1.5 million Muslims (3%), 552,000 Hindus (1.1%), 329,000 Sikhs (0.6%), 260,000 Jewish (0.5%), and 144,000 Buddhists (0.3%).

There were 7.7 million (14.8%) who said they had no religion or adhered to one not recognised by the statisticians. This compared with 44% declaring no religion in the 2000 British social attitudes survey.

Iqbal Sacranie, secretary general of the Muslim Council of Britain, said: "Up to now, Muslims have been statistically invisible, and thus easily marginalised. The census output is a strong signal to central and local government, social services and employers that the needs of all sections of Britain's multicultural society must be fairly and equitably addressed."

The Bishop of Lichfield, the Rt Rev Keith Sutton, said the figures on religion were a "wake-up call" for the Church.

"These figures prove as a lie claims by the National Secular Society and others that England is no longer a Christian country. The Christian faith is still relevant to many, many people.

"But welcome as they are, the statistics are a wake-up call to all of us in Christian leadership. While the Christian faith remains relevant to the vast majority of society, the church is clearly no longer seen as important."

Terry Sanderson, vice-president of the National Secular Society, said: "It will be dangerous if the Church of England is now allowed to start claiming all sorts of privileges on the basis of these figures, when in fact the number of people who go to church is minuscule."

The census is used to plan government services such as health care and officials said they were surprised by answers to a new question on whether householders were caring for a sick or disabled adult relative or neighbour. They found 5.2 million people in England and Wales were providing unpaid care - nearly one in 10 of the population. More than 1 million of them were providing 50 or more hours a week.

Diana Whitworth, chief executive of Carers UK, said the number of 50-hour carers was double past estimates and a devastating reminder of the struggle experienced by carers on low incomes and little support, saving the UK economy billions of pounds a year.

The census found almost 9.5 million people (18.2%) declaring a long-term illness, health problem or disability that limited daily activities or the work they could do. Of these 4.3 million were of working age. Easington in Co Durham had the highest proportion of people providing care more than 50 hours a week (31% of carers) and was also the area where people were most likely to have been born in England (97.5%).

In another sign of how Britain is changing, the census was the first to show less than half the households were occupied by a married couple. Mr Pullinger said the proportion of married couples had fallen from 64% in 1981 to 45%.

Nearly a third of adults remain single and one-person households make up 30% of the total. Lone parents account for 10% of households and nine out of 10 lone parents are women. Mr Cook said there were now more people over 65 than children under 16. In 30 years time there would be 4.5 people over 65 for every three children.



http://society.guardian.co.uk/news/s...895420,00.html

[Kegluneq]

or adhered to one not recognised by the statisticians.

That'll be the Jedis

[Marilyn Manson]

In any given area of any country, whites will be in a minority.

Which is besides the point, though, which is that I personally couldn't give a toss, although I'm sure the figures will be utilised to good effect by The Sun, elements within The Tory Party and The BNP in their variously thinly diguised intolerant and/or racist agendas.

[Judge]

Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
In any given area of any country, whites will be in a minority.

I would argue against this, there are very few people from Ethnic Minorities in large parts of North Yorkshire, in fact I cannot recall the last time I saw a Black person in either, Richmond, Bedale, Northallerton or Thirsk.

[CrashTester]

Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
In any given area of any country, whites will be in a minority.

Which is besides the point, though, which is that I personally couldn't give a toss, although I'm sure the figures will be utilised to good effect by The Sun, elements within The Tory Party and The BNP in their variously thinly diguised intolerant and/or racist agendas.

Out of interest, do you live in eirther of those two boroughs or any with similar figures? And can I assume you are white?

[Radical Edward]

I think it is appaling that we allow ourselves to be overrun by these people who clearly only come bere because they want to take all our money then invite all of their families over here and then start up terrorist sects so they can turn us into an inslamic state they should all be evicted immediately they should be put on planes and sent back to france where they all come from because france is the reason this world is going to pot oh and while they are at it all single mothers should be shot as well as their offspring and all liberal minded people who say that the above does not need doing yada yada yada.

oh, an people who post huge sections of quoted material rather than just paraphrase and give a link should be banned

[Radical Edward]

Originally posted by CrashTester
Out of interest, do you live in eirther of those two boroughs or any with similar figures? And can I assume you are white?

he comes from one of the tips up north like Middlesborough.

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally posted by Judge
I would argue against this, there are very few people from Ethnic Minorities in large parts of North Yorkshire, in fact I cannot recall the last time I saw a Black person in either, Richmond, Bedale, Northallerton or Thirsk.

Okay okay. But you could say, measure the areas just over the way from me, and whites would be in the extreme minority.

The fact that they measured the ethnicity in a council borough and it amazingly turned out that whites were in the minority in that borough, seems fairly meaningless to me. It's just as equally arbritary and meaningless as if you measured a two foot strip outside Bradford Public Baths.

Ethnic minorities are on the rise. We know this already.

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally posted by CrashTester
Out of interest, do you live in eirther of those two boroughs

Nope. I live in Newcastle.

Originally posted by CrashTester
or any with similar figures?

?

Newcastle is fairly racially diverse, and my University is as racially diverse as it gets. Stockton, where I come from, has a quite substantial Asian community.

Not really sure what all this has to do with anything, though.

Originally posted by CrashTester
And can I assume you are white?

I am white, and I'm whiter when I put my powder on.

I aim to be pale, not white though with my powder. Too much powder is ruinous. Just look at Dani Filth.

[Judge]

Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
Okay okay. But you could say, measure the areas just over the way from me, and whites would be in the extreme minority.

The fact that they measured the ethnicity in a council borough and it amazingly turned out that whites were in the minority in that borough, seems fairly meaningless to me. It's just as equally arbitary and meaningless as if you measured a two foot strip outside Bradford Public Baths.

Ethnic minorities are on the rise. We know this already.

You were making a generalisation that any area of the country could be shown to have an increase in the numbers of Ethnic minorities.

Which is clearly not the case.

I do not wish to continue to pointlessly argue about this, it is clear that there is a rise in population in regard to Ethnic Minorities, but it is not everywhere.

People tend to stick with their own, and that applies equally to all strata of society as well as the Ethnic Minorities.

[Judge]

Originally posted by Radical Edward

oh, an people who post huge sections of quoted material rather than just paraphrase and give a link should be banned

Yes.

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally posted by Judge
Which is clearly not the case.

Perhaps I should have originally said 'Any areas which you cared to target and specify' in the original post.

My point still stands.

[CrashTester]

Originally posted by Marilyn Manson

The fact that they measured the ethnicity in a council borough and it amazingly turned out that whites were in the minority in that borough, seems fairly meaningless to me.

Its very meaningful. Far from being integration, these areas have been flooded with people of all races. A lot of the time it is the councils fault for encouraging this with ethnic schemes, job opportunities, etc, all at the expense of the people who used to call it home.

Its segregation at the expense of white peopl who live there or should I say once lived there.

To those people they dont live in a multi cultural society, they have had their home flooded with all sorts of other cultures and races probably to an entent they didnt expect nor ask for. And this isnt typical of the whole country, as is evident in the article above.

[Judge]

Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
Perhaps I should have originally said 'Any areas which you cared to target and specify' in the original post.

My point still stands.

What you should have said, was that in some areas etc........

Which is the case.

[Mong]

Originally posted by Judge
I would argue against this, there are very few people from Ethnic Minorities in large parts of North Yorkshire, in fact I cannot recall the last time I saw a Black person in either, Richmond, Bedale, Northallerton or Thirsk.

That's because being black makes you inherently cool. Cool is a genetic right, if you're black. North Yorks isn't cool. Therefore there's no black people there. It wouldn't be cool you see.

M.

[Nodrog]

It makes no difference whatsoever what ethnic makeup a country has, just as long as "foreigners" arent members of a stupid culture which they are trying to aggressively promote.

[Radical Edward]

Originally posted by Nodrog
It makes no difference whatsoever what ethnic makeup a country has, just as long as "foreigners" arent members of a stupid culture which they are trying to aggressively promote.

whose culture is the stupid one though?

[Nodrog]

Originally posted by Radical Edward
whose culture is the stupid one though?

Any one that involves forcing personal choices upon other people.

[Nodrog]

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
So perhaps you should quailfy your position.

Why? I agree with you (although 2 of your examples are incorrect, but thats irrelevant)

[JonnyBGood]

Originally posted by Nodrog
Any one that involves forcing personal choices upon other people.

Like the culture that forces people to be responsible for their own actions right? Or the culture that enforces liberty on people? Or a culture which believes it's right to make choices abrogates anything anyone else might say?

[Radical Edward]

Originally posted by JonnyBGood
Or the culture that enforces liberty on people?

how can you enforce liberty on someone?

[JonnyBGood]

Originally posted by Radical Edward
how can you enforce liberty on someone?

Refuse to help them punish them or take any responsibility for any of their actions which can damage themselves or consenting others. Basically you follow the fundamental precepts of objectivism.

[Radical Edward]

Originally posted by JonnyBGood
Refuse to help them punish them or take any responsibility for any of their actions which can damage themselves or consenting others. Basically you follow the fundamental precepts of objectivism.

but that is "allowed" rather than enforced.

[Vaio]

Newham and Brent are used as a dumping ground for imigrants who are less likely to be white and/or christian.

Vaio

[JonnyBGood]

Originally posted by Radical Edward
but that is "allowed" rather than enforced.

I'd argue that it hasn't been enforced yet. It still remains possible for it be enforced.

[CrashTester]

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
There are countries which don't allow people with certain views to live there, China, Saudi Arabia, McCarthyist America, but do we wish to emulate these countries?

No, but at the same time we should be maintaining this countries traditions and beliefs, and those coming to settle here should respect that.

Problem is, in places like Newham, you are not allowed to have a white english identity for fear of offending the 'locals'.

Hot cross buns anyone?

[Nodrog]

Originally posted by CrashTester
No, but at the same time we should be maintaining this countries traditions and beliefs

What traditions and beliefs are you referring to, how do you wish to maintain them, and why should they be maintained?

[CrashTester]

Originally posted by Nodrog
What traditions and beliefs are you referring to, how do you wish to maintain them, and why should they be maintained?

Okey dokey, how about hot cross buns. Not allowed to be on school menus for easter in case they offend the non christians.

As a Christian country these little traditions should be maintained because, however small, they are traditions and harmless at that. Being told they cannot be consumed, or put on school menus in the instance, simply causes tension where it otherwise would not be.

Now, I dont believe for one minute this kind of errosion to enbglish culture is soley the work of asians/blacks etc, but more so by white do gooders intent on wiping out our past identity.

And lets not even mention the flag.

[Slidey]

Originally posted by CrashTester
No, but at the same time we should be maintaining this countries traditions and beliefs, and those coming to settle here should respect that.

Problem is, in places like Newham, you are not allowed to have a white english identity for fear of offending the 'locals'.

Hot cross buns anyone?

whilst i definately agree with you that people that come to live in this country should attempt to fit into its customs, traditions, way of life etc, i dont think that the country will stand still forever, and regardless of whether people move to an area, that area will change over time..

i also think (and dislike) that quite often, asians (especially) are far more racist than whites..

[JonnyBGood]

Originally posted by CrashTester

Hey guys, now that we've advanced this far let's stop and never go any further!

[Sub]

I live in Dorset and I've only met one non-white person.

[Nodrog]

Originally posted by CrashTester
Okey dokey, how about hot cross buns. Not allowed to be on school menus for easter in case they offend the non christians.

Agreed on this particular example. However, was it an isolated case? It certain sounds like retarded multi-culturualism, but I'd need more details to know for sure.

Originally posted by CrashTester

As a Christian country these little traditions should be maintained because, however small, they are traditions and harmless at that..

No, Christian traditions should not be maintained, at least at state level. There is no legitmate reason whatsoever for the state to get involved in religion in any way whatsoever. The reason that people are starting to object to "Christian traditions" more and more has very little to do with immigrants, and a lot to do with the average person becoming less attached to irrational orthodox religions ideals. Blaming immigrants for people losing faith in an outdated church seems like scapegoating.

Originally posted by CrashTester

Now, I dont believe for one minute this kind of errosion to english culture is soley the work of asians/blacks etc, but more so by white do gooders intent on wiping out our past identity.

Being a "Christian country" is dumb. I applaud any move that helps to erode detrimental traditions, whether it is initiated by immigrants or not. Again, there is no valid reason whatsoever for state promotion of religion.

Originally posted by CrashTester

And lets not even mention the flag.

The reason the flag has became "un-PC" is because it was hijacked by racists who used it for their own agenda. How is this the fault of immigrants? Its (almost) comparable to germans blaming the jews for making the swastika un-PC.

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally posted by CrashTester
Okey dokey, how about hot cross buns. Not allowed to be on school menus for easter in case they offend the non christians.

I don't believe this for one minute. Probably some Murdoch crock.

And, even if it's true, I'll bet it was solely initiated by some Marxist crudbucket of a council like Kneecappingsborough or some other such improbable place.

In either case, I wouldn't give a toss, personally. I can't see how the criminality, or the lack of hot-cross buns leads to a serious degredation in English/British culture.

If British culture were built on hot-cross buns, we would be in trouble. More so than we are today, with the rapidly advancing materialist junkvilles swirling in on all sides.

[CrashTester]

Hey people, read my last post. I cant answer all the things raised just yet but I'll try later. However..

The hot cross bun thing was an example, after Nodrog asked what traditions and beliefs I was talking about, I chose that one since it was recently published. My whole point of view is not based on a hot cross bun, ffs.

I am also not really against people coming into the country. What I do object to though is having areas dominated by small ethnic communities especially when they are 'dumped' onto the existing community and then are seen to get special treatment, as has happened in Newham.

And I did state that I dont believe for one minute all of the things that cause tension are down to the ethnic minorities themselves.

Toccata & Fugue, I lived in Newham - all my life until I was 26 then I moved out, not far but I moved out. To be honest, I was driven out by the way the area had become. Sure, some of the people were nice - we lived between an asian family and a black family. Each year we exchanged Christmas presents and we likewise gave the children gifts for ead (be buggered if I can spell it though) and we all got along just fine, no religious problems, nothing. But then there are the dregs. And unfortunately, due to the area having an influx of what seems every other nationality under the sun, most of the dregs were from the ethnic minorites. So I moved, but unfortunately not everyone is in a position to do that.


I am well aware of why the flag became un-PC but that is no reason to have our waving of our flag at our queen (and other absurdities) banned. That is a matter of law and order, they should clamp down on those responsible for using it as a weapon of hate.

I dont expect to be treated or looked upon as a racist for wanting to display my national flag. Its crazy.

Anyway, more later, gotta go.

[Proteus]

Originally posted by Nodrog
Being a "Christian country" is dumb. I applaud any move that helps to erode detrimental traditions, whether it is initiated by immigrants or not. Again, there is no valid reason whatsoever for state promotion of religion.

Just out of curiosity, would you be in favour of allowing polygamy in Britain, as some non-Christian religions allow it?

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally posted by Proteus
Just out of curiosity, would you be in favour of allowing polygamy in Britain, as some non-Christian religions allow it?

Is this a bollocksy 'religion and morality are inseperable' argument?

[Nodrog]

Originally posted by Proteus
Just out of curiosity, would you be in favour of allowing polygamy in Britain, as some non-Christian religions allow it?

Yes, of course. Obviously they wouldnt be married within the Catholic church, but I see no problem with having it recognised at state-level.

[Proteus]

Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
Is this a bollocksy 'religion and morality are inseperable' argument?

It actually wasn't an argument at all, hence the "just out of curiosity", but now you mention it, I do think that they are at least related.

For instance, in some (not sure how many) Islamic countries, it is acceptable to kill a woman who has committed adultery.

In a Christian society this would be considered completely unacceptable.

Note that I did not say "for Christians", but "in a Christian society". I am sure that most (if not all) Atheists in Britain would say that this sort of killing is wrong, purely because of the religion that is prevalent in our country.

Non-religious people tend to keep the morality of the religion of their society, either because they were brought up to believe it or because of the attitude of others (news reports condemning these sorts of murders etc).

Laws are based on morals (except for things like traffic laws), because they essentially say what is wrong and what is right, and because people's views on this are inevitably influenced by religion.

Christian morality says everyone has the right to life, whereas Islamic morality says that killing is sometimes okay. These two are mutually exclusive, and any country has to choose one or the other, or end up in the ridiculous situation of allowing people to choose which laws apply to them.

[Proteus]

Originally posted by Nodrog
Yes, of course. Obviously they wouldnt be married within the Catholic church, but I see no problem with having it recognised at state-level.

When a man in certain occupations (the armed forces for instance) dies, should each of his four/thirteen/seventy-nine wives receive a widow's pension?

[Nodrog]

Originally posted by Proteus
When a man in certain occupations (the armed forces for instance) dies, should each of his four/thirteen/seventy-nine wives receive a widow's pension?

It would be up to the insurance/pension company and the individual in question to negotiate the terms of the policy.

[Nodrog]

Originally posted by Proteus
snip

Countries in which the predominant belief is that "morality" is independant from an externally existing God-like figure (see most of Eastern Asia for starters) still manage to have functional legal systems and laws. Morality does not have to come from religion, and neither do laws.

[edit - ta]

[Umbrall]

Nodrog, I think you meant to say "morality does not have to come from..."

And personally I think that when you move to a country, you should accept and respect their laws and customs, even when they do not agree with your own.

Speaking as someone who did move to Britain once.

[Nusselt]

im not sure what traditions and beliefs you're on about but wouldnt it be logical to presume that for the most part the reasons that these 'traditions and beliefs' are dying out is because the majority of white people no longer feel part of them? rather then 7.6% of the country going round fcking with our ways, the bastards!!!!!

i suppose this comes down to what it 'means' to be english/scottish/welsh/British. Go and read the English by paxo, it might help. One interesting point he brought up is that most immigrants can easily identify themselves as British, but less easliy as english, part of the reason for this is that 'British' tends to be a more open ended 'ideal', ie it is in effect more of a multicultural, even just taking in white scots/english/welsh. Whereas the idea of being 'english' (football aside) is on the one hand the poxy idea of the countryside, green and pleasant land (John Majors idiotic fairmaiden cycling down the cricket pitch or whatever) and on the other people with skinheads screaming rather nasty things. The cities in england are given a british identity rather than an english one, so you're left with a vacumn of english identity.

Im not sure what these traditions are that you speak off, but im sure that i probably wont have any sense of them being 'mine'. Are you sure that this isnt a case of, omg people with strong but different sense of identity are living next to me and i feel threatend!!! im not saying that thats wrong, its a natural reaction, but i cant see how you're sense of who you are is affected by them.