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Unread 22 Feb 2003, 01:42   #1
Makain
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Why haven't the British overthrown Blair?

Let me start this by saying I am from the United States, and like the thousands of people in my country (whatever the gall-up poll held in Texas might say) I now hold anti-war views. However, it has become obvious that even though the Bush Adminstration has called the 500,000 protesters who took to the streets last weekend in New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Miami, Detroit, Boston, Philidelphia, Reno and Las Vegas a 'focus group' that they cannot goto war unless Britain gives them their full backing. So unless CNN is making up lies again (like they did when Israel bombed that Palestinian Neighborhood) 80% of Britains do not support any military action whatsoever. So please tell me why these hasn't been a referendeum on Blair's impeachment? Is Britain not a democracy? While such a thing would never be plausible in the US (most likely would be entangled for years), certainly the more liberal British can accomplish this. I beg of you please explain to me why Blair ignores his people and supports the United States. Why when, British opposition would change the general view of those who lead Spain, Italy, Poland, and probably Turkey to not support the US. A million protested in Rome, 750,000 in London. I really just want an explanation.
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Unread 22 Feb 2003, 01:45   #2
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i think it was about 1.5 million in london

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Unread 22 Feb 2003, 01:46   #3
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Re: Why haven't the British overthrown Blair?

Quote:
Originally posted by Makain
Let me start this by saying I am from the United States, and like the thousands of people in my country (whatever the gall-up poll held in Texas might say) I now hold anti-war views. However, it has become obvious that even though the Bush Adminstration has called the 500,000 protesters who took to the streets last weekend in New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Miami, Detroit, Boston, Philidelphia, Reno and Las Vegas a 'focus group' that they cannot goto war unless Britain gives them their full backing. So unless CNN is making up lies again (like they did when Israel bombed that Palestinian Neighborhood) 80% of Britains do not support any military action whatsoever. So please tell me why these hasn't been a referendeum on Blair's impeachment? Is Britain not a democracy? While such a thing would never be plausible in the US (most likely would be entangled for years), certainly the more liberal British can accomplish this. I beg of you please explain to me why Blair ignores his people and supports the United States. Why when, British opposition would change the general view of those who lead Spain, Italy, Poland, and probably Turkey to not support the US. A million protested in Rome, 750,000 in London. I really just want an explanation.

Because Anarchy is the ideal tool of idiots who dont understand democracy properly.
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Unread 22 Feb 2003, 02:06   #4
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Probably 'cus the countries you speak of have small armies, primative weapons and training, and NO BALLS!!!

And about 75% of the 1.5 million people protesting against the war are probably illegals in our country, living off our benefits and supporting a maniac like Saddam...

How Controversial
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Unread 22 Feb 2003, 03:17   #5
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So we should remove someone who was elected, albeit a couple of years ago and who now seems to ignore public opinion a bit, and replace him with someone noone voted for, and because of that will probably ignore public opinion even more than Blair?
Yes, I can see why a revolution is such a good idea. Look how much good it did for Russia
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Unread 22 Feb 2003, 03:30   #6
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Yes, I can see why a revolution is such a good idea. Look how much good it did for America
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Unread 22 Feb 2003, 03:35   #7
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Russia is a more modern example. You can prove pretty much anything if you go far enough back into history.
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Unread 22 Feb 2003, 04:07   #8
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It's not that he isn't listening, he just can't hear us.

With your head that far up Bush's arse you you wouldn't be able to hear 1.5 million people.
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Unread 22 Feb 2003, 04:25   #9
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Re: Why haven't the British overthrown Blair?

Quote:
Originally posted by Makain
Let me start this by saying I am from the United States, and like the thousands of people in my country (whatever the gall-up poll held in Texas might say) I now hold anti-war views. However, it has become obvious that even though the Bush Adminstration has called the 500,000 protesters who took to the streets last weekend in New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Miami, Detroit, Boston, Philidelphia, Reno and Las Vegas a 'focus group' that they cannot goto war unless Britain gives them their full backing. So unless CNN is making up lies again (like they did when Israel bombed that Palestinian Neighborhood) 80% of Britains do not support any military action whatsoever. So please tell me why these hasn't been a referendeum on Blair's impeachment? Is Britain not a democracy? While such a thing would never be plausible in the US (most likely would be entangled for years), certainly the more liberal British can accomplish this. I beg of you please explain to me why Blair ignores his people and supports the United States. Why when, British opposition would change the general view of those who lead Spain, Italy, Poland, and probably Turkey to not support the US. A million protested in Rome, 750,000 in London. I really just want an explanation.
Britain is not known for holding referendi, the last one was quite some time ago, also no Government holds referendi, unless they know they will win.

We do not impeach our leaders in Britain, it is not the done thing, also I believe that impeachment (in the US) is a prosecution made against the encumbant President when he has broken the law. IF a British Prime Minister is found to have broken the law, the parliament tend to change the law. However as going to war, would not be breaking the Law (here or in the US) I doubt very much whether there could be a consideration of prosecution (impeachment as you call it)

As for the number of protesters, the Best estimate is/was 1 Million, although the Police estimate was slightly lower at 750K.
Whilst this is a large number of people, it only represents 1/60th of our population.
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Unread 22 Feb 2003, 06:35   #10
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4/5 not supporting the war is a big slight with public opinion. I used impeach for the lack of a better word (I believe there is an official term in the US for removing someone if they don't live up to public expectation. That said, I believe many governments re-elect a new president or prime minister if he is removed from office early. Not go into a facist-communist revolution .
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Unread 22 Feb 2003, 11:12   #11
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Re: Why haven't the British overthrown Blair?

Quote:
Originally posted by Makain
So unless CNN is making up lies again (like they did when Israel bombed that Palestinian Neighborhood) 80% of Britains do not support any military action whatsoever.
I wouldn't believe those figures if i was you.

There would be no point over throwing Blair as he is the best of a bad bunch at the moment :/
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Unread 22 Feb 2003, 11:21   #12
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The Labour Party can hold a "vote of no confidence." If they do not have confidence in Blair's leadership, then the Labour Party can select a leader to replace Blair. That is how I understand the situation, based on my graduate studies of International Relations that I never finished.
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Unread 22 Feb 2003, 13:44   #13
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Quote:
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The Labour Party can hold a "vote of no confidence." If they do not have confidence in Blair's leadership, then the Labour Party can select a leader to replace Blair. That is how I understand the situation, based on my graduate studies of International Relations that I never finished.
A vote of no-confidence in the commons is indeed the correct procedure but Blair losing would necessitate a general election, failing that a leadership contest within the labour party would potentially achieve the same ends but without the need for a general election.

None of this is going to happen though
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Unread 22 Feb 2003, 13:48   #14
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Because democracy is an imperfect ideology.
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Unread 22 Feb 2003, 14:26   #15
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because the british people are smarter than the average bear, if the war goes tits up, we can blame it all on the blair for his poodleness in respect to america, and blame america in general. If it works out than we get to strut our stuff around the world since we all thought twas a good idea from the begining, and point to the fwench and germans and go 'naa naa naa naa'. We're covering our bases see, we have scapegoats lined up for most possible outcomes.
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Unread 23 Feb 2003, 14:37   #16
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I don't believe anyone has been impeached in Britain in well over 100 years, and no Prime Minister ever has. Impeachment is usually used against Judges and legal officers, not ministers.

His government could be brought down by a vote of no confidence in the Commons (not happened since 1979, and then they had no majority, this govt has a majority of over 170) or by the denial of supply (as far as I know this hasn't happened ever, at least not in the Modern era), his party could remove him as its leader, or he could be expelled from the Commons (certainly not going to happen).
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Unread 23 Feb 2003, 14:45   #17
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Re: Re: Why haven't the British overthrown Blair?

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Originally posted by JC
I wouldn't believe those figures if i was you.

There would be no point over throwing Blair as he is the best of a bad bunch at the moment :/
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Unread 23 Feb 2003, 14:49   #18
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Re: Why haven't the British overthrown Blair?

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Originally posted by Makain
why havent the us overthrown Bush mk 2 the self imposed president of the USA

asking these questions is pointless what kind of answer are you going to get on an internet forum
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Unread 23 Feb 2003, 15:00   #19
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Exclamation Re: Why haven't the British overthrown Blair?

Quote:
Originally posted by Makain
So unless CNN is making up lies again (like they did when Israel bombed that Palestinian Neighborhood) 80% of Britains do not support any military action whatsoever.
Actually, I don't believe the figure is generally that high, and even so, it would be more accurately 80% who oppose action without the backing of The UN.

Quote:
Originally posted by Makain
So please tell me why these hasn't been a referendeum on Blair's impeachment? Is Britain not a democracy? While such a thing would never be plausible in the US (most likely would be entangled for years),
I think you sort of answered your own question there. The US has a very executive-accountable system, and yet even impeachements there are highly unlikely. And Bush is flying in the face of public opinion, and his position is still secure.

In Britain, the executive (In Britain's case, the cabinet of ministers, headed by The PM.) is very poorly accountable. To quote Lord Halisham, Britain is nigh-on an 'elective dictatorship', whereby the executive is poorly constrained in the way it goes about it's actions.

It is really a serious flaw, in my opinion. Personally, I believe that The British constitution needs a fundamental overhall, from the bottom up. But that's just my opinion.


Blair could be ousted either by a no confidence vote in Parliament, (that he lost) which would trigger a general election. Or, he could be subject to his party in parliament triggering a Labour leadership election, which requires Labour MP's, the number of which I can't quite remember, saying they want one.

Neither are particularly likely at the moment.
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Unread 23 Feb 2003, 16:57   #20
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has anyone considered where we would be if blair hadn't said "yes i agree we need a war, but let's wait for the UN" and had just opposed bush out-right.

And for the record, i'm not against the war so long as it doesn't start effecting the country en-mass. i would much sooner the west had control over the oil. i just wish they would say that's actually what it's about, all this wmd bollox is annoying me.
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Unread 23 Feb 2003, 16:59   #21
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i would much sooner the west had control over the oil.
And we have the right to take control of it because....?
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Unread 23 Feb 2003, 17:00   #22
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And we have the right to take control of it because....?
who said anything about the right to take it. i just said i would sooner we had it.
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Unread 23 Feb 2003, 17:03   #23
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who said anything about the right to take it. i just said i would sooner we had it.
There has to be a balance of power, if 'the west' controlled everything we'd be well and truly knackered.
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Unread 23 Feb 2003, 17:04   #24
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Quote:
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There has to be a balance of power, if 'the west' controlled everything we'd be well and truly knackered.
why?
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Unread 23 Feb 2003, 17:05   #25
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Quote:
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why?
1984 ahoy.

Every system has to have checks and balances, can you imagine the US government if they had no restrictions on their actions at all?

I certainly can and the thought terrifies me
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Unread 23 Feb 2003, 17:12   #26
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Exclamation

We could never control the world even if we wanted to, or even if we managed to bring the whole of it under western dominion through force. Napoleonic era-style nationalism would do us in, not to mention all the other factors, like political problems, problems of logistics, etc. It wouldn't be sustainable.
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Unread 23 Feb 2003, 17:18   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle29uk
1984 ahoy.

Every system has to have checks and balances, can you imagine the US government if they had no restrictions on their actions at all?

I certainly can and the thought terrifies me
Perhaps. but do you really think that it is the mid-east oil stopping a 1984 situation occuring in the western world?


on a side note: 1984 could never be an exact reality, as it would require the support of the army and it is highly unlikey to support such actions in this day and age.
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Unread 23 Feb 2003, 17:19   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
We could never control the world even if we wanted to, or even if we managed to bring the whole of it under western dominion through force. Napoleonic era-style nationalism would do us in, not to mention all the other factors, like political problems, problems of logistics, etc. It wouldn't be sustainable.
i wasn't suggesting the west rule the world... far from it
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Unread 23 Feb 2003, 17:20   #29
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Question

Quote:
Originally posted by Add
on a side note: 1984 could never be an exact reality, as it would require the support of the army and it is highly unlikey to support such actions in this day and age.
Wasn't there a nuclear war in the 50's in the book? Wouldn't that sort of 'killed off' the army a bit?
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Unread 23 Feb 2003, 17:21   #30
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Perhaps. but do you really think that it is the mid-east oil stopping a 1984 situation occuring in the western world?
No, but our governments wanting control over it is sypmtomatic of the disease.
Quote:
on a side note: 1984 could never be an exact reality, as it would require the support of the army and it is highly unlikey to support such actions in this day and age.
Obviously. Are you familiar with the Pentagon and Total Information Awareness? Did you know that since the EU caved in to the US the US government can now work out what passengers on inbound flights requested meals without pork?
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Unread 23 Feb 2003, 17:21   #31
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Originally posted by Add
i wasn't suggesting the west rule the world... far from it
I know, I was just going off on a tangent.
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Unread 23 Feb 2003, 17:22   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
Wasn't there a nuclear war in the 50's in the book? Wouldn't that sort of 'killed off' the army a bit?
don't know i've never read it. only the bits i had to study for history ( don't ask ), all of the big brother stuff.
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Unread 23 Feb 2003, 17:33   #33
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Originally posted by Gayle29uk
No, but our governments wanting control over it is sypmtomatic of the disease.
perhaps, but still not a lot we can do about it. if it's going to happen, it will, so we may as-well get the most out of it we can...

i think there is a little paranoia on your side though.

Quote:

Obviously. Are you familiar with the Pentagon and Total Information Awareness? Did you know that since the EU caved in to the US the US government can now work out what passengers on inbound flights requested meals without pork?
actually yes, i also know that all airports in the US have mind readers who read the minds of incoming passengers to see if any are planning any terrorist acts. I also know that Australia, The UK and Canada (and i think New Zealand - not sure about the US, if not in on this system they probably have a similar one), record, track and monitor ALL forms of electronic communications in those countries and search them for certain 'buzz words' which will trigger the alarms, so to speak. There's not a whole lot we can do about it, and so long as people can continue living their lives largely un-effected no-one will ever really care too much. But still that's not really 1984, as in 1984 everyone knew about it and were petrified of even thinking anything wrong (weren't there a pair of eyes everywhere as-well with the words "big brother is watching" or something -specifically designed to intimidate).
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Unread 23 Feb 2003, 17:39   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Add
actually yes, i also know that all airports in the US have mind readers who read the minds of incoming passengers to see if any are planning any terrorist acts. I also know that Australia, The UK and Canada (and i think New Zealand - not sure about the US, if not in on this system they probably have a similar one), record, track and monitor ALL forms of electronic communications in those countries and search them for certain 'buzz words' which will trigger the alarms, so to speak.
The US were the prime movers behind Echelon.
Quote:
There's not a whole lot we can do about it, and so long as people can continue living their lives largely un-effected no-one will ever really care too much. But still that's not really 1984, as in 1984 everyone knew about it and were petrified of even thinking anything wrong (weren't there a pair of eyes everywhere as-well with the words "big brother is watching" or something -specifically designed to intimidate).
My point is that while it's fairly innocuous now, it won't necessarily stay that way. Big Brother IS watching you, it's just that right now he doesn't really want you to know it. That might change in the future, Bush has already thrown the constitution in the bin courtesy of the (un)PATRIOT act. Habeus Corpus no longer applies in the US, nor does the right to trial by jury. You don't have the right to contact anyone to inform them of your arrest nor do you have the right to a lawyer. Big Brother in the 1984 sense is a nonsensical idea but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be worried about what western governments are doing.
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Unread 23 Feb 2003, 17:57   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Add
on a side note: 1984 could never be an exact reality, as it would require the support of the army and it is highly unlikey to support such actions in this day and age.
What actions? Bombing your own people? They seem to like doing it to everyone else, regardless of allegience, so it's a small step to that.
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Unread 23 Feb 2003, 18:09   #36
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because

we elect him to come into power for five years and do whatever he wants. Then we get the chance to vote him out if we don't like what he's done. Providing there are any of us left
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Unread 23 Feb 2003, 20:17   #37
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I see a lot of parallels to the US right now, and the Roman Republic right before it became an Empire. Perhaps a 100 years from now society will once again collapse and we are forced to repeat history, if in a more technological and probably comfortable setting.
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Unread 23 Feb 2003, 20:58   #38
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Re: Re: Why haven't the British overthrown Blair?

Quote:
Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
In Britain, the executive (In Britain's case, the cabinet of ministers, headed by The PM.) is very poorly accountable. To quote Lord Halisham, Britain is nigh-on an 'elective dictatorship', whereby the executive is poorly constrained in the way it goes about it's actions.

It is really a serious flaw, in my opinion. Personally, I believe that The British constitution needs a fundamental overhall, from the bottom up. But that's just my opinion.


Blair could be ousted either by a no confidence vote in Parliament, (that he lost) which would trigger a general election. Or, he could be subject to his party in parliament triggering a Labour leadership election, which requires Labour MP's, the number of which I can't quite remember, saying they want one.

Neither are particularly likely at the moment.
Yes, however, the people of this land elected Blair for the next 4 or 5 years for better or for worse, the idea being that if they don't like it, they can always vote him out next time.

No Government will ever do something radically unpopular, as if it did, it would almost certainly guarantee getting kicked out next time. In Britain the controls in government are mainly political rather than legal (although some legal remedies in the form of judicial review and appeal exist)

The problem in this country is the fact that the conservative party are an ineffective opposition to bring the government to account for its actions. I'm not Labour and I'm highly unhappy with Mr.Blair's Primeministership this term; I tolerated him first time round, and I'm pretty much discontent with his performance this time as he acts more like an American Diplomat rather than a Primeminister who should be dealing with issues at home as well as abroad.

Britain is stable because of the way its constitution is formed via various statues and conventions, which have only been changed gradually over time; our continued stability and relative success compared to other nations only points to the fact that our constitution has served us well.

I'm also for a war as long as the UN is behind it, as it would be politically stupid otherwise. Regardless of WOMD, I can think of no reason why Saddam shouldn't be dealt with considering his track record. If you saw John Major on Breakfast With Frost this morning, I'd say I was more or less on his wavelength that we're going about this the wrong way and should concern ourselves with issues such as Israel (he talked about problems in Gaza) and humanitarian aid on top of Iraq in dealing with this problem.
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Unread 24 Feb 2003, 13:20   #39
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Exclamation Re: Re: Re: Why haven't the British overthrown Blair?

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Originally posted by lokken
No Government will ever do something radically unpopular, as if it did, it would almost certainly guarantee getting kicked out next time.
You seem to miss the point, which is that measures to destroy civil liberties, freedoms etc, can either be popular and/or viable with a large number of 'hang 'em high' types in this country. And there is no backup system in the form of a codified constituton and/or a bill of rights to stop this from happening.

I don't understand how unpopular policies are automatically bad, and popular policies are automatically good.

Quote:
Originally posted by lokken
The problem in this country is the fact that the conservative party are an ineffective opposition to bring the government to account for its actions.
No, the problem with this country is the fact that even when an opposition is healthy, the government still has extensive reign to do what it likes.

Criticism of a government is excellent, but when the only thing you and everyone else can do is criticise it's actions, which is the effective setup in this country, you know you are in deep do-do.

Quote:
Originally posted by lokken
Britain is stable because of the way its constitution is formed via various statues and conventions, which have only been changed gradually over time; our continued stability and relative success compared to other nations only points to the fact that our constitution has served us well.
I don't know how this relates to the present, no matter how true it is.

The constitution has already undergone substantial constitutional changes in the last 5 years that have been more far-reaching than any other in post-war history. And they have been useful in seriously reforming government by making it more democratic and de-centralised. And there has been no great drop in stability - we can now change the constitution peacefully and easily. We are not living in the 18th century.

So that rules out some sort of argument that constitutional stagnation helps with stability. So what is the argument?

Are you suggesting that if we start messing with constiutions then a Robespierre figure will automatically materialise and we'll all be living in fear?

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Unread 24 Feb 2003, 13:37   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Add
on a side note: 1984 could never be an exact reality, as it would require the support of the army and it is highly unlikey to support such actions in this day and age.
The 'Big Brother' part of the book is the thing most people remember and is very unlikely at the moment (although some parts seem to be becoming reality).
What is a lot more relevent today is the part about a 'Permanent war' in which the Leader uses the fear of the people to implement laws that would never normally be acceptable and give himself complete power. Hello terrorist legislation. To do this there needs to be the fear that the enemy could strike anyone, anywhere at anytime. Hello Al-Qaeda...
It's all quite scary that a lot of people are quite prepared to give up a lot of human rights (or human rights of others) due to a fear of being attacked. And it is happening now. Unless we do something, 1984 may be much less realistic in the near future...

(BTW, I have just read Stupid White Men by Michael Moore and he mentioned all this in the Epilogue, all US citizens should read the book and decide who they want leading them)
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Unread 24 Feb 2003, 13:42   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ste
It's all quite scary that a lot of people are quite prepared to give up a lot of human rights (or human rights of others) due to a fear of being attacked.
As I said earlier in this thread.

I think Benjamin Franklin put it best though
Quote:
Anyone who gives up freedom for security
deserves neither.
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Unread 24 Feb 2003, 13:43   #42
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Why haven't the British overthrown Blair?

Quote:
Originally posted by Marilyn Manson

No, the problem with this country is the fact that even when an opposition is healthy, the government still has extensive reign to do what it likes.

Criticism of a government is excellent, but when the only thing you and everyone else can do is criticise it's actions, which is the effective setup in this country, you know you are in deep do-do.
I have to say that a decent opposition would jump on unpopular actions by the government and stir up public opinion which would make a difference.
The Poll tax lost Thatcher her position, the Iraq crisis is seemingly even more unpopular but no conservatives have jumped on it and critisized, this has been left to the Lib Dems. Iraq could be Blair's downfall but as the opposition are supporting it openly there seems to be very little the public can do. It definately won't gain the Tories any votes.
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Unread 24 Feb 2003, 13:44   #43
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Anyway, 1984 is dull. Read Brave New World and BNW Revisited by Aldous Huxley.
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Unread 24 Feb 2003, 13:45   #44
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why haven't the British overthrown Blair?

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Originally posted by Ste
I have to say that a decent opposition would jump on unpopular actions by the government and stir up public opinion which would make a difference.
The Poll tax lost Thatcher her position, the Iraq crisis is seemingly even more unpopular but no conservatives have jumped on it and critisized, this has been left to the Lib Dems. Iraq could be Blair's downfall but as the opposition are supporting it openly there seems to be very little the public can do. It definately won't gain the Tories any votes.
The Falklands conflict could have been Thatcher's downfall but it wasn't.

Iraq will either make Blair the man of the moment or it will end his career, which won't be decided for a few months yet.
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Unread 24 Feb 2003, 13:46   #45
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Quote:
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Anyway, 1984 is dull. Read Brave New World and BNW Revisited by Aldous Huxley.
Orwell has a much more flowing style than Huxley which makes him generally more pleasant to read (to me).
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Unread 24 Feb 2003, 13:49   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle29uk
Orwell has a much more flowing style than Huxley which makes him generally more pleasant to read (to me).
1984 is the worst of Orwell's books. Quite a lot of the book is rather timidly written, without his regular flow imo.

BNW is more idea than prose intense.
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Unread 24 Feb 2003, 13:53   #47
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Exclamation Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why haven't the British overthrown Blair?

Quote:
Originally posted by Ste
I have to say that a decent opposition would jump on unpopular actions by the government and stir up public opinion which would make a difference.
This assumes many things, such as the opposition actually opposing it, the measure actually being a vote winner, the issue actually stiring the public to act or actually being unpopular in the first place, etc.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ste
The Poll tax lost Thatcher her position,
It wasn't that simple.

And in any case - the poll tax was an issue that directly effected people financially. People can't always be expected to be roused in that same way over issues such as civil liberties. In fact, they aren't. It's that simple.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ste
but as the opposition are supporting it openly there seems to be very little the public can do.
And this tells you what?
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Unread 24 Feb 2003, 13:55   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ste
The 'Big Brother' part of the book is the thing most people remember and is very unlikely at the moment (although some parts seem to be becoming reality).
What is a lot more relevent today is the part about a 'Permanent war' in which the Leader uses the fear of the people to implement laws that would never normally be acceptable and give himself complete power. Hello terrorist legislation. To do this there needs to be the fear that the enemy could strike anyone, anywhere at anytime. Hello Al-Qaeda...
It's all quite scary that a lot of people are quite prepared to give up a lot of human rights (or human rights of others) due to a fear of being attacked. And it is happening now. Unless we do something, 1984 may be much less realistic in the near future...

(BTW, I have just read Stupid White Men by Michael Moore and he mentioned all this in the Epilogue, all US citizens should read the book and decide who they want leading them)
They already have Goldstein in the form of Osama, the seemingly invincible man bent on the destruction of the West, who claims responsibility for every act of terrorism ever.
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Unread 24 Feb 2003, 13:56   #49
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why haven't the British overthrown Blair?

Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle29uk
The Falklands conflict could have been Thatcher's downfall but it wasn't.

Iraq will either make Blair the man of the moment or it will end his career, which won't be decided for a few months yet.
Except that we were fighting off invaders - completely different set of circumstances. Of course if it was lost it could have been her downfall.

If we go to war without a UN resolution, Blair will not survive.
If we go to war with a UN resolution, and lose*, Blair will not survive.
If we go to war with a UN resolution, and win, Blair may survive depending on the aftermath... which won't be pretty.
If we don't go to war, Blair and Bush's friendship will be broken...
What do you think is most important to Blair now?

*by losing I mean any more than expected losses on our side and substantial civilian losses.
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Unread 24 Feb 2003, 14:07   #50
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why haven't the British overthrown Blair?

Quote:
Originally posted by Ste
If we go to war without a UN resolution, Blair will not survive.
Wrong.
Quote:
If we go to war with a UN resolution, and lose*, Blair will not survive.
Most likely correct.
Quote:
If we go to war with a UN resolution, and win, Blair may survive depending on the aftermath... which won't be pretty.
Most likely correct.
Quote:
If we don't go to war, Blair and Bush's friendship will be broken...
Whoopee doo. I think Bush will be out on his ass come the next US election anyway.

Personally I think it boils down to 2 real possibilities.

1. Bush and Blair are right, invade without a resolution, find WMDs in the process, and are the heroes of the world for sticking to their guns (no pun intended) when everyone else was wrong. This would make both of them utterly unassailable come the next elections.

2. British and American troops will die, too many civilians will die, it will drag on too long, no WMDs will be found, Bush and Blair are the pariahs of the world and get booted.
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