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Unread 24 Sep 2012, 10:26   #151
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Re: Well done Ult

So essentially we have two problems. The first problem causes the second problem and is a little complex I'm sure for some people to figure out....

Problem 1) People don't know how to block any more. Alliance A,B,C come together in pm and say holy crap alliance x is gonna win. People then say we need a chan and need to worth together. "Block" is formed.

The "Block" then identifies the gals that need to be hit. The biggest alliance, we'll use alliance A, in the block says we'll hit this fort, while alliances B,C say right we'll hit 4 or so targets in this fence in a normal gal raid. Presumably because they don't want to be in a war and regard it as alliance A's war.

The first night of attacks come alliance A's target gets leaked block target grounds and laughs at the slightly higher incs but otherwise un coordinated incs. This is not how a block is going to work and a block will never work while people continue to block in this way.

Problem 2) The block is so god aweful that the members of alliance A lose interest in not landing despite supposedly having X number more fleets. Alliances A gets hit back and loses millions of roids and the target of the block wins.

Blocks should indeed work however they should work by systematically taking apart a target alliance there is no way any alliance in PA can stand up to a fully committed block incoming. I'm talking proper war rather than a BC putting up a gal and saying "go get em guys big targets today need everyone involved". Before people say the block would have had to choose between ult or app this round that is utter shite. If the block worked together they could have probably made most of app/ult quit the round then started on the other side. no1 will play PA if they get 8+ waves of inc a night for a sustained period its just not fun. Either the alliances that are left need to learn to work together properly to take out ult ( whoever else seems to be winning) or just accept the fact without bitching/ moaning that ult ( whoever else) is going to win multiple rounds.
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Unread 24 Sep 2012, 12:47   #152
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebos View Post
So essentially we have two problems. The first problem causes the second problem and is a little complex I'm sure for some people to figure out....

Problem 1) People don't know how to block any more. Alliance A,B,C come together in pm and say holy crap alliance x is gonna win. People then say we need a chan and need to worth together. "Block" is formed.

The "Block" then identifies the gals that need to be hit. The biggest alliance, we'll use alliance A, in the block says we'll hit this fort, while alliances B,C say right we'll hit 4 or so targets in this fence in a normal gal raid. Presumably because they don't want to be in a war and regard it as alliance A's war.

The first night of attacks come alliance A's target gets leaked block target grounds and laughs at the slightly higher incs but otherwise un coordinated incs. This is not how a block is going to work and a block will never work while people continue to block in this way.

Problem 2) The block is so god aweful that the members of alliance A lose interest in not landing despite supposedly having X number more fleets. Alliances A gets hit back and loses millions of roids and the target of the block wins.

Blocks should indeed work however they should work by systematically taking apart a target alliance there is no way any alliance in PA can stand up to a fully committed block incoming. I'm talking proper war rather than a BC putting up a gal and saying "go get em guys big targets today need everyone involved". Before people say the block would have had to choose between ult or app this round that is utter shite. If the block worked together they could have probably made most of app/ult quit the round then started on the other side. no1 will play PA if they get 8+ waves of inc a night for a sustained period its just not fun. Either the alliances that are left need to learn to work together properly to take out ult ( whoever else seems to be winning) or just accept the fact without bitching/ moaning that ult ( whoever else) is going to win multiple rounds.
Ult got hit for 20 days+ for atleast 2 rounds, cant remember which ones exactly.
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Unread 24 Sep 2012, 12:55   #153
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Re: Well done Ult

The 2 rounds before this one. It was so bad that clouds offered everyone a credit if we won! ;p
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Unread 24 Sep 2012, 13:12   #154
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
Even worse than that - we haven't even been able to rely on Stylez. Not that I blame him in the slightest for refusing to DC for a whole alliance while the rest of the members sleep.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.
Teach a man how to fish and you feed him for a life time.

Any player should be capable of defence coordinating else teach him freaking how to.
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Unread 24 Sep 2012, 13:20   #155
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Wouter View Post
dont think anyone in apprime feels superior to ult, so yes..
ofc we do
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Unread 24 Sep 2012, 14:59   #156
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by jelle View Post
ofc we do
arent you the one i kicked from an ally for being shit ?
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Unread 24 Sep 2012, 15:35   #157
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by jelle View Post
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.
Teach a man how to fish and you feed him for a life time.

Any player should be capable of defence coordinating else teach him freaking how to.
"Capable" yes, "willing" (and available) no.

(I'm sure I already said that).
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Unread 24 Sep 2012, 15:42   #158
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter View Post
arent you the one i kicked from an ally for being shit ?
nah was because you thought i leaked att/def info(atleast that was the official reason)
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Unread 24 Sep 2012, 15:58   #159
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
"Capable" yes, "willing" (and available) no.

(I'm sure I already said that).
If one is not willing to secure atleast his own and galmates roids then i really dont see the reason for that person to play in a "top" ally.

You know what the problem is here and just refuse to solve it and then go around trying to change the game when its the player u need to change/kick.
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Unread 24 Sep 2012, 18:06   #160
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by jelle View Post
If one is not willing to secure atleast his own and galmates roids then i really dont see the reason for that person to play in a "top" ally.

You know what the problem is here and just refuse to solve it and then go around trying to change the game when its the player u need to change/kick.

I think the problem we are all making is saying CT/ND and so on.. are top allies.. they arent they are definatly in the 2nd teir now.
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Unread 24 Sep 2012, 18:46   #161
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
Even worse than that - we haven't even been able to rely on Stylez. Not that I blame him in the slightest for refusing to DC for a whole alliance while the rest of the members sleep.

I've tried to explain this in the (many) threads about tag sizes. There aren't enough "proper" DCs to go around. Even most of those who are capable are no longer willing to put in the time and effort. The only viable solutions (as has been pointed out) are:
1/ To change alliance structures to manage without DCs (as per Ult and other "hardcore" alliances);
2/ To reduce the number of alliances so that there are enough "proper" DCs to go around or;
3/ To accept that if you sleep and you get incs then you get roided.

This round has been very little fun - I'm getting too old to do without sleep all night as often as I've had to do that.
Jelle already touched on this, albeit in a crude manner. The truth is you have to evolve. One DC doing all of the alliance is a thing of the past (unless your name is shaz). Much of Ascendancy's success 15-25 rounds ago were built on the system both Apprime and Ult use today. You need to trust your members enough that the best person to DC your own inc is yourself, or if not available a gal mate. You are forced to be more accountable that way and the game will be what you make it instead of what some DC you barely know decides. Members also get to interact with each other in a different way and you usually get a pretty good idea if someone is a selfish idiot pretty fast. In an alliance like CT or ND, the main motivation to DC is that you get to cover yourself first. But even DC's will get roided and if they were only DC'ing to avoid that, then they will stop straight away after that.

This round there was too much bullshit. ND were allowed to be in the block despite being NAP'ed to Ult the whole round. Even when the rest of the block hit Ult, they were hitting Apprime. Haven joined too late to make a real difference, and even then we had to drag Ult kicking and screaming towards hitting them.

Forest talks a lot of bullshit in this thread, any good HC should explore all options available to them. For Apprime in this case that involved talking to the block about hitting Ult. Unfortunately in PA, some people make that out as "going around begging for a NAP"..

The biggest mistake of many alliances in rounds past, and particular ND this round is to get too locked into one thing and leaving yourself no alternative options. They played most of the round with Apprime to hit and pretty much no-one else. Politics need to be fluent for a good meta game and that never happened this round. Though I did enjoy DS running into vac after they had screwed up trying to avoid hitting ANYONE for 2/3's of the round. And then folding like a house of cards.

The block didn't decide the winner of this round. Ult were already 10-15 mill ahead with hidden prod and could probably have outroided Apprime anyway. But the more powerless someone becomes, the more they just want to decide _something_ to satisfy their ego.

6:6 sucks btw, deal with it
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Unread 24 Sep 2012, 19:00   #162
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Re: Well done Ult

tbh ultores is an alliance with potential to win... until someone stops them they will keep on winning ....
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Unread 24 Sep 2012, 20:13   #163
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Re: Well done Ult

Forest talks a lot of bullshit in this thread, any good HC should explore all options available to them. For Apprime in this case that involved talking to the block about hitting Ult. Unfortunately in PA, some people make that out as "going around begging for a NAP".. [/quote]

I dont think I ever said anyone 'begged' for naps.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotnam View Post
The block didn't decide the winner of this round. Ult were already 10-15 mill ahead with hidden prod and could probably have outroided Apprime anyway. But the more powerless someone becomes, the more they just want to decide _something_ to satisfy their ego.
Actually I did the scans and App were ahead on score once res was taken into account and had the luxury of more roids also.
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Unread 24 Sep 2012, 20:14   #164
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Re: Well done Ult

From an out of ND mouth. shav seems to be good at covering herself, not so much for covering nd.
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Unread 24 Sep 2012, 20:34   #165
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest View Post
Forest talks a lot of bullshit in this thread, any good HC should explore all options available to them. For Apprime in this case that involved talking to the block about hitting Ult. Unfortunately in PA, some people make that out as "going around begging for a NAP"..
I dont think I ever said anyone 'begged' for [/quote]

Yes you did
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Unread 24 Sep 2012, 21:04   #166
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Re: Well done Ult

Apprime HC spoke with our block about the potential for us to nap app, IF app were to launch on Ult.
The same Apprime hc did so without being approached and of his own free will.


From my post on page 1.

Feel free to show any quotes that show I said you begged
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Unread 24 Sep 2012, 23:41   #167
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Re: Well done Ult

jelle, Zotnam, you're both missing the point.

I understand exactly what you're saying but you're not acknowledging that the majority of players want (need?) to be able to sleep at night. These players aren't going to stick around for long when they wake up most mornings to find that they have undefended incs. Under the "old style" DC regime they'd at least see that someone had tried to cover them.

Personally, I always stay awake all night to DC my own incs but only because that's the only way I can get cover. Even then I've lost over 1500 rocks this round due to lack of activity in the rest of the alliance If it wasn't for my gal-mates I'd have lost far more.

What I'm trying to say is that I should be the exception rather than the rule. A game that demands its players disrupt their lives if they want defence is doomed to perish - and we've been seeing that happen for many, many rounds.
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Unread 24 Sep 2012, 23:47   #168
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Re: Well done Ult

that is the nature of PA. if people cannot be bothered to DC their own incs then dont play PA. yes that is a major problem and that is why PA is dying. that is the single biggest reason for PA dying, people do not want to lose sleep and so they stop playing PA.

but i still hold to, if you cannot be f*cked to DC your owns incs, why the f*ck should someone do it for you?
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 00:18   #169
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Re: Well done Ult

As a matter of interest did getting rid of prelaunch make any difference to the whole dcing/incs at night thing?

Also we've gone a little bit off topic of a congratulations thread to Ultores. Although I never like congratulating prematurely I think we're safe on this one. Well done guys. I don't quite know how this compares to your other victories (it seemed relatively easy from my vantage point but you can't really tell in these things sometimes) but a W is a W as they say in the States.

Remember to thank Forest in the EORC as well!
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 00:31   #170
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
As a matter of interest did getting rid of prelaunch make any difference to the whole dcing/incs at night thing?!
I don't expect any significant effects for this round. -4 is too high to make a difference.

There was a clear effect when it was reduced further, in r45, but that round also had a slighly bigger dip in player numbers than is usual. I think Remy posted some useful data on CT's incomings over the rounds, but I can't find it right now.
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 02:01   #171
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Re: Well done Ult

The moral of the story is.. ODDR is unbelievably shit.
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 03:07   #172
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Re: Well done Ult

I like the part where Apprime and Ultores have been blocked against for the majority of the round, and they both sit 1 and 2 and have a lot of top 100 planets...so the block achieved none of their goals.
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 06:24   #173
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
As a matter of interest did getting rid of prelaunch make any difference to the whole dcing/incs at night thing?
From personal experience DCing and BCing this round it didnt have massive effect it just led to more EU players not waking up to launch and more attacks coming in at 2-3am which is a harder time to wake people up for defence as they are normally in deep sleep.

Im not saying that its a bad thing, we all have opinions on alliances having to change their attacking times to suit changes but that is mainly what i noticed.

There was a lot of 'player A didnt launch ffs.. its a recall' and a lot of the earlier waves relied on ingal defence more.

Personally i think you either have a big PL (like 6 or something which allows people to set an attack and sleep) or you have no PL at all which should force attacks to be launching later than they currently do. +4 just ended up being an awkward number, it gave the illusion that BC's could leave attacking times as they were when in hindsight they probably shouldnt have.
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 09:39   #174
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Re: Well done Ult

i just realised why i dislike forest so much! he reminds me of Lordn in the way that he takes credit for shit that was going to happen anyway. (ie apprime not winning this round.)
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 10:34   #175
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Re: Well done Ult

He is trying to take credit for something that is utter rubbish. He had no intention whatsoever of wanting ULT to win. It was made perfectly clear to us (App) that the block of girls (oh nice job today 5 alliances on 1 planet and you land 3 waves) yes the block want to hit App to force us to hit ULT but when they were given the get lost card they were stuck with what to do.

So what did they do 1st King Forest came and graced me with his prescence (You truly are a tool) explaining to me how he is the person who make PA tick and he can do what the hell he likes. If this is the case perhaps come back and try and convince me again to work with you.

The answer will be the same as this one Get stuffed.

I can see Cain has been having issues trying to explain out App and the round win situation. I honestly do not recall the last time App wanted to win a round.

I see you acheived your aim of 6:6 being roided flat and killed and longer #1
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 11:53   #176
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Re: Well done Ult

He tried convincing me also pal :]
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 12:44   #177
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
I like the part where Apprime and Ultores have been blocked against for the majority of the round, and they both sit 1 and 2 and have a lot of top 100 planets...so the block achieved none of their goals.
Id wait untill Appoc releases the fleet stats post round before making any jugdement on who had it worse.
R46 Ultores had 2/3 of the total incs that round that the other alliances had, yet they claim to being unfairly blocked against.
Its the same story every round, Ultores claims being unfairly targetted, and stats usualy show theyve had it as easy as everyone else.
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 12:59   #178
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Id wait untill Appoc releases the fleet stats post round before making any jugdement on who had it worse.
R46 Ultores had 2/3 of the total incs that round that the other alliances had, yet they claim to being unfairly blocked against.
Its the same story every round, Ultores claims being unfairly targetted, and stats usualy show theyve had it as easy as everyone else.
Actually you normally find that ultores get most of their incs in a concentrated time period compared to other alliances, so yes over 1200 ticks they have less total incs but most of theirs are in a period of 300-400 ticks then everyone goes fighting each other and leaves ult alone
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 13:01   #179
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Re: Well done Ult

I will be surprised if Ultores got a lot of incs this round, what with the block hating on Apprime. Matters **** all though.
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 13:05   #180
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Re: Well done Ult

where in that quote does it say anything about "unfairly targetted" butcher? do you even read the words of what you type? (as you clearly dont read what you are responding to.)
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 13:16   #181
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Reincarnate View Post
where in that quote does it say anything about "unfairly targetted" butcher? do you even read the words of what you type? (as you clearly dont read what you are responding to.)
ofc i read what im responding to, and i fail to read it in any other way than "all the other alliances ganged up on ultores, and ultores got WAAAAY more incs than everyone else, and still we are l33t lulz omfglol".
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 13:30   #182
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Re: Well done Ult

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ofc i read what im responding to, and i fail to read it in any other way than "all the other alliances ganged up on ultores, and ultores got WAAAAY more incs than everyone else, and still we are l33t lulz omfglol".
I didn't make comment on incs at all. infact this is by far the easiest round in terms of # of incs received and the sustained period of them that ive played in ultores. I was making comment on the fail of the block not achieving any of their goals actually. feel free to make up your own argument topics though...
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 14:48   #183
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
I didn't make comment on incs at all. infact this is by far the easiest round in terms of # of incs received and the sustained period of them that ive played in ultores. I was making comment on the fail of the block not achieving any of their goals actually. feel free to make up your own argument topics though...
We will see if the combined incs on Appthores is bigger than the incs on "the block" then. Everyone gas had their fair share of incs.
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 14:54   #184
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
We will see if the combined incs on Appthores is bigger than the incs on "the block" then. Everyone gas had their fair share of incs.
OMFG. this post is confirmation that you ignore what others post and just reply to what you wanted them to say, not what they actually said.
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 14:59   #185
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Re: Well done Ult

I give up.
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 15:03   #186
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Re: Well done Ult

Who cares? The block failed ONCE AGAIN. Nuff said.
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 16:31   #187
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Re: Well done Ult

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OMFG. this post is confirmation that you ignore what others post and just reply to what you wanted them to say, not what they actually said.
No, im saying that one reason for "the block" to fail could be theyve had it much worse than Appthores, meaning they couldve had a lot more incs from the Appthores block and other allies.
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 16:37   #188
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Re: Well done Ult

Dont bother with him he is mentally challenged.
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 16:48   #189
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Re: Well done Ult

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Who cares? The block failed ONCE AGAIN. Nuff said.

Its okay man, between 4 alliances and 200+ fleets they managed to land 3 ticks on me.

They are pretty awesome.

Guess they want an ult planet win
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 17:13   #190
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Smile Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
No, im saying that one reason for "the block" to fail could be theyve had it much worse than Appthores, meaning they couldve had a lot more incs from the Appthores block and other allies.
Yes it completely acceptable that ultores and apprime put more incommings on the fail block than those 5 alliances + fockers could manage. Especially when you consider the fail block put 300 ticks of incs on ult and app at round start and then another 200 ticks on apprime at round end. Compared to what? About 6 nights of apprime/ultores on ct/nd and ds and a 3 night free roid session on haven who weren't even a part of the block till tick 800
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 19:35   #191
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benneh View Post
Its okay man, between 4 alliances and 200+ fleets they managed to land 3 ticks on me.

They are pretty awesome.

Guess they want an ult planet win

Im sure Forest will claim this was all his doing
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 21:23   #192
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Re: Well done Ult

what can you take credit for then?
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 21:35   #193
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Re: Well done Ult

yay buly arrives with a sarcastic comment... i wonder what had been missing from this thread...

I dont have to take credit for anything Buly, im not saying that i did anything this round worth taking credit for but atleast im not making up things like Forest
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 22:43   #194
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Re: Well done Ult

Just out of curiosity:

Has anyone ever succeeded to bend an alliance into a war with a third party by hitting said alliance excessively? I know someone tries this strat every round, just wondering if anyone has seen it succeed as of lately(i vaguely remember one or two incidents in the early days where it semiworked, but not the later years)?
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Unread 25 Sep 2012, 22:51   #195
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Re: Well done Ult

I was unhappy with ultores i aproached gm myself etc. We talked and shit we were about to change or minds then forest pmed :]wit his i control who wins shit etc.
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Unread 26 Sep 2012, 08:10   #196
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Re: Well done Ult

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Id wait untill Appoc releases the fleet stats post round before making any jugdement on who had it worse.
R46 Ultores had 2/3 of the total incs that round that the other alliances had, yet they claim to being unfairly blocked against.
Its the same story every round, Ultores claims being unfairly targetted, and stats usualy show theyve had it as easy as everyone else.

Everybody knows you never go full retard.

Check it out. Dustin Hoffman, 'Rain Man,' look retarded, act retarded, not retarded. Counted toothpicks, cheated cards. Autistic, sho'. Not retarded. You know Tom Hanks, 'Forrest Gump.' Slow, yes. Retarded, maybe. Braces on his legs. But he charmed the pants off Nixon and won a ping-pong competition. That ain't retarded. Peter Sellers, "Being There." Infantile, yes. Retarded, no.

You went full retard, man. Never go full retard. You don't buy that? Ask Sean Penn, 2001, "I Am Sam." Remember? Went full retard, went home empty handed...
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Unread 26 Sep 2012, 12:38   #197
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Re: Well done Ult

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Everybody knows you never go full retard.

Check it out. Dustin Hoffman, 'Rain Man,' look retarded, act retarded, not retarded. Counted toothpicks, cheated cards. Autistic, sho'. Not retarded. You know Tom Hanks, 'Forrest Gump.' Slow, yes. Retarded, maybe. Braces on his legs. But he charmed the pants off Nixon and won a ping-pong competition. That ain't retarded. Peter Sellers, "Being There." Infantile, yes. Retarded, no.

You went full retard, man. Never go full retard. You don't buy that? Ask Sean Penn, 2001, "I Am Sam." Remember? Went full retard, went home empty handed...
Im just saying that if Ultores got less incs than say CT, HaveN or dS, its no wonder they are doing so good.
Same reason as Ultores won r46 when fang had a few thousand more incs than Ult
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Unread 26 Sep 2012, 14:21   #198
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Re: Well done Ult

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Originally Posted by Reincarnate View Post
that is the nature of PA. if people cannot be bothered to DC their own incs then dont play PA. yes that is a major problem and that is why PA is dying. that is the single biggest reason for PA dying, people do not want to lose sleep and so they stop playing PA.

but i still hold to, if you cannot be f*cked to DC your owns incs, why the f*ck should someone do it for you?

So your solution for CT is to tell their members to stop playing pa. Fantastic.
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Unread 26 Sep 2012, 15:46   #199
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Re: Well done Ult

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The moral of the story is.. ODDR is unbelievably shit.
obviously still good enough to land on you
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Unread 26 Sep 2012, 15:49   #200
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Re: Well done Ult

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obviously still good enough to land on you
Taking a whole tag to land ONE wave. Well done!
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