Round 17 Stat balance

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by Gate

Beetles EMP spiders

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

I guess in hindsite, the Spider init 1 would open up Cathaar far more to Fr pods.

:-)

[JonnyBGood]

But xans don't keep their roids that well this round. Cath fr just annihilates them.

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

I do have to point out that in Round 14, when we had a not dissimilar (although perhaps not quite so extreme) situation, a Cathaar still won, but there were a lot less Cathaar near the final rankings. I think it's worth waiting a few more weeks before making such a strong analysis. While admittedly Terran are the best anti Cath around and Cath are good against themselves, if one race is overpowered the universe generally adapts to some degree - i.e. building more anti fr/de.

Is it just me or is the universe adapting slowly, as the top cathaars keep on adding their distance. An occasional one gets dropped down by - most of the time - terran destroyers, though. Cathaars have a fair lead all over, and they're tough to target.

The fact that Terrans are doing well is nothing to do with the fact they're anti Cathaar, it's to do with the fact that they're playing for XP (as I myself have found).

Disagreed. I see it happening very differently in my alliance. Being a decently ranking terran myself, I do have more XP than a lot others, but that's mainly because I attack big caths because they give roids. Playing it the way I do, I'd admantly claim that terrans can play through value and do very good because there's so much good or brilliant cathaar targets around.

Over the coming weeks, Cathaar will be targetted strongly. They are good targets, possibly the best for Bs (especially due to the low amounts of black widows compared to say Scorpions), and even though fi and co suffer from the large amounts of EMP they're still 0 loss. At the moment, they are in a strong position as they do best against Xan and not badly against Zik.

Looking a lot into the incomings my alliance gets, it's terrans and xandathrii that get targetted heaviest. Cathaars get least incomings, in my experience. And in attacks, they get picked rather scarcely in compared to the amount of roids they got (we do have some terrans here, though). Cathaar get targetted strongly by cruisers and destroyers, remains to be seen how long it takes for them to counter cruisers through bwid/mantis. Doesn't take much to ruin the day for a weakly armored zikonian cruiser fleet, or a cathaar fleet of cruisers that has no way dealing with mantis.

We'll see how strongly cathaar end up being targetted after all.

As Terran are the strongest opponents to Cathaar apart from Cathaar themselves, Cathaar are obviously in the best position to attack.
However, Zik steal more as the round goes on and are always a late round race as furball has just said, and Xan also benefit late on from lack of activity, fast ships, and the fact they keep their roids extremely well. Personally, I can see anti fr built up beyond 'normal levels', forcing Cathaar to use Cr more and Xan to use Fi more mid/late round, which will if anything benefit Xan!

I can't see cathaar being able to roid a cathaar to be honest. It's very difficult. Mantis and scorpion make it real painful. Adding other shipclasses generally just makes attacking harder and heavier. Zikonian cruisers are an apparent threat, though, but they have trouble against terrans and xandathriis on the other hand. Remains to be seen how well the zikonians will be able to grow. Yeah, you can add spider to an attack fleet to stop scorpions. Beetle fires before them, though.

If you'd care to elaborate exactly how cathaars attack cathaars easily, I'd be pleased. At least the cathaars in my alliance constantly complain if target galaxies contain "much cathaars".

The immense threat to cathaar would be strong xandathrii migration into fighter fleets. This isn't as likely, though, as fighter fleets experience trouble against the three other races. At the moment xandathrii are happier targetting themselves, zikonians, and terrans, than just caths alone.

[Benneh]

Well tbh, im cath and ive lost over 1.1k roids now to terran de.

even tho i have 6k spiders myself argh i hate spiders so much

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Tietäjä

FR-based cathaars are not vulnerable to CR at that large (Scarab is so much stronger than the cruisers you usually get tossed at with; also, even if you were on Mantis/Cruiser, Black Widows don't have it so hard with Pirates).

The problem with scarabs is that you have to spend almost as much on scarabs as teh attacker does on CR. Or you get roided and/or have your ships stolen.

Corvettes are a joke when it comes to recluses.

See above.

No, black widow is rather strong, and the terran BS generally is a lot weaker than terran DE. Also, the amount of terrans is rather tiny.

See above. And notice that the black widow is the second worst defensive EMP ship, at 133% efficiency. (spiders being by far the worst)

Cathaars already form 43% of the top100.

Cathaars had 61% of the t100 last week or so. They are no longer top on average value, the average roids is getting closer slowly, and ziks are catching up quickly on average score.

And frankly, under the current schematics, cathaars have already gotten too big (and zikonians and xandathrii too small) for them to be challenged by anything but terrans.

I'd disagree and say that atm, ziks can also have a field day with many caths. Xands will, as usual, catch up (they're maintaining second highest average roids, and are slowly catching up),

Let's be honest and realistic here, will we. Destroyers is the way to take down cathaars: black widow is so much stronger than spider, and battleships also suffer from clippers which are far more annoying than chimeras - and seem to appear more often.

However, big caths can buy roach. Combined with ingal spectre, or defending spider/illusion, they can make things really messy for terrans.

Caths going EMP makes it nearly impossible, long term, for them to be genuinely immune. For example, less us assume that the average attack fleet at one stage in the game is worth 500,000 value. In order to stop these fleets, a cath will need:
Vs. Terran DE = ~26,900 spider = ~510k value
Vs. Terran BS = ~2,350 widow = ~400k value
Vs. Zik CO = ~2,800 recluse = ~390k value
Vs. Zik CR = ~3,400 scarab = ~340k value
Vs. Xand FI = ~10,400 beetle = ~300k value

In order to make oneself immune to all average 500k value fleets, a cath would need to spare 1.94 million value. It can of course be done cheaper, by concentrating on certain classes, but this only makes you more vulnerable to other attack fleets and means attackers can afford to hit you with more waves.

I think that cathaar's typical early round good performance (I'm pretty sure htey had 40ish in t100 by this stage last round? Perhaps earlier in the round though) is giving them an aura of immunity which is quite frankly wrong. Some large cathaar planets will prove tough to roid if you're not targetting them, and if they're defsinks, i agree. But that can be said for every race...

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Tweaker

Well tbh, im cath and ive lost over 1.1k roids now to terran de.

even tho i have 6k spiders myself argh i hate spiders so much

I prefer roach myself

6k spiders = 300 roach. Means you wipe out 100 barghest or less, so can force smaller terrans to team up (so less waves!), and gives you another attack fleet

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by Tietäjä

Playing it the way I do, I'd admantly claim that terrans can play through value and do very good because there's so much good or brilliant cathaar targets around.

but it's far more fun and easier hitting big caths and getting relatively more xp!
I was commenting on the top Terrans, who seem to match rather closely with the top ranking XP players in the universe.

Looking a lot into the incomings my alliance gets, it's terrans and xandathrii that get targetted heaviest. Cathaars get least incomings, in my experience.

this round or generally?

And in attacks, they get picked rather scarcely in compared to the amount of roids they got (we do have some terrans here, though).

I guess the issue is that it's easier at the moment to get roids off other races. However, the fact they're relatively 0 loss on most classes and can't concentrate on all classes does mean that there are going to be gaps.

I can't see cathaar being able to roid a cathaar to be honest. It's very difficult. Mantis and scorpion make it real painful. Adding other shipclasses generally just makes attacking harder and heavier. Zikonian cruisers are an apparent threat, though, but they have trouble against terrans and xandathriis on the other hand. Remains to be seen how well the zikonians will be able to grow. Yeah, you can add spider to an attack fleet to stop scorpions. Beetle fires before them, though.

If you'd care to elaborate exactly how cathaars attack cathaars easily, I'd be pleased. At least the cathaars in my alliance constantly complain if target galaxies contain "much cathaars".

My point was that Cathaar and Terran were the most anti Cathaar races. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough.

The immense threat to cathaar would be strong xandathrii migration into fighter fleets. This isn't as likely, though, as fighter fleets experience trouble against the three other races. At the moment xandathrii are happier targetting themselves, zikonians, and terrans, than just caths alone.

If scorpions become more common to combat Cathaar Fr fleets that are hitting Xans, then the general increase in anti fr and relatively low anti fi could surely shift Xans into a more Fi/Co stance?

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Gate

I think that cathaar's typical early round good performance (I'm pretty sure htey had 40ish in t100 by this stage last round? Perhaps earlier in the round though) is giving them an aura of immunity which is quite frankly wrong.

No way. Must have been way earlier. Like tick 72 earlier

[Appocomaster]

No, tick 72 is Terran central, as they get construction bonuses to lift them relatively higher.

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by Gate

The problem with scarabs is that you have to spend almost as much on scarabs as teh attacker does on CR. Or you get roided and/or have your ships stolen.

Scarab power: 62.
Rogue armor: 43

Recluse power: 58
Assassin armor: 42

Given that the two ships are part of quite a few cathaar's attack fleets, they're built en'masse. At the moment, we're experiencing "shock CR". There's a lot of cruisers flying around, and little anti-Cr. I see people gradually building more, though. Should observe the universe composition to see which grows faster: anti-Cr or anti-Fr.

See above. And notice that the black widow is the second worst defensive EMP ship, at 133% efficiency. (spiders being by far the worst)

This, added to the fact that anti-BS around is generally better than anti-DE around (wraiths fire before wyvs, clippers are faster than chimeras and hit harder, bwids also hit harder), makes destroyers a more viable option on the long run. Yeah, barghests also beat the poop out of roaches and maradeurs.

Cathaars had 61% of the t100 last week or so. They are no longer top on average value, the average roids is getting closer slowly, and ziks are catching up quickly on average score.

A lot of cathaars have pooploads of resources stocked. Very few zikonians have. Yes, they've come down, but I really can't see them coming down below 35-40%, or being pushed out of dominating top ranks.

However, big caths can buy roach. Combined with ingal spectre, or defending spider/illusion, they can make things really messy for terrans.

I think Barghest is a bit stronger than roach, but spectres are nasty agreed. On the long run, xandathrii are good defending themselves against pretty much everything BUT cath FR and ter BS to a certain extent.

In order to make oneself immune to all average 500k value fleets, a cath would need to spare 1.94 million value. It can of course be done cheaper, by concentrating on certain classes, but this only makes you more vulnerable to other attack fleets and means attackers can afford to hit you with more waves.

These are just facts of life. You'll never be immune to everything, hence why you need teamwork. Try counting how much terran or zikonian ships it takes to be "immune" to attacks. A lot more.

The problem is, cathaar do have a bit stronger jump start than they've usually had: how long things go like this remains to be seen, but I dare predict cathaar will be the dominant race of the round to the very end of it. Also, the issue with the top caths is that they usually appear to have quite a bit of resources stocked. Planet scan the top10 caths just to see, and then check how much value they would gain - and what they could build - should they.

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

but it's far more fun and easier hitting big caths and getting relatively more xp!
I was commenting on the top Terrans, who seem to match rather closely with the top ranking XP players in the universe.

Top terrans are both gaining and loosing more roids than top cathaars. This is because terran DE is stronger in roiding and terrans have a lot more trouble holding on to roids: part because of metageme (little terrans, DEs have less resistance), part because of statistics (cathaars can hold onto roids easily).

I could talk to you about defence sinks, but I took that into PM.

this round or generally?

This round. Browse through the Roids Gained and Roids lost of planets of different races.

I guess the issue is that it's easier at the moment to get roids off other races. However, the fact they're relatively 0 loss on most classes and can't concentrate on all classes does mean that there are going to be gaps.

My point was that Cathaar and Terran were the most anti Cathaar races. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough.

Cathaars can build pretty okay zero-loss defence ships against both cathaar attack fleets. How come cathaar is a good anti-cathaar race, ie. in attacking cathaar? Of course, they stop cathaar incomings easily: this is why cathaars attack xandahtrii and zikonians mostly.

If scorpions become more common to combat Cathaar Fr fleets that are hitting Xans, then the general increase in anti fr and relatively low anti fi could surely shift Xans into a more Fi/Co stance?

As I answered to Gate, that would seriously render targetting options: shadows, pegasus, and brigands are quite nasty to xandathrii fighters, and a small amount can break a havoc. I don't see too many xans moving off frigates, as frigates combined with certain niches just make up for far more versatile attack fleet. And, there is at the moment 245,609 beetles in the universe. Compare it to those 379k spiders. There's plenty of anti-fi around as it is. Fighter fleets can crack up opportunities, but, well, cathaars have a good solution to them too. Little more defences and it's covered. Beetles nicely fit to the scheme protecting you from spider tricks too.

Of course, you cannot protect yourself against all classes, but I see cathaars loosing very little roids overall. Wonder why...

[Proxi]

I remain convined that a value cat is going to win this round, simply because it is so easy to hold onto your roids.
I think ive lost around 100 so far this round, and that was to a suicide frig fleet whom I gladly accepted as salvage.

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by Proxi

I remain convined that a value cat is going to win this round, simple because it is so easy to hold onto your roids.

Now, just why, do you not believe Gate and Appocomaster when they say cathaars will be targetted hard and will be loosing a lot of roids? Uhm, err... I could list reasons, probably, but I'm with you on this one. Value cathaars will dominate, value/xp mix of terrans will come second.

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by Tietäjä

Now, just why, do you not believe Gate and Appocomaster when they say cathaars will be targetted hard and will be loosing a lot of roids? Uhm, err... I could list reasons, probably, but I'm with you on this one. Value cathaars will dominate, value/xp mix of terrans will come second.

Sounds like a challenge to all the fine BCs out there...

[Benneh]

Originally Posted by Paisley

Sounds like a challenge to all the fine BCs out there...

heh, who seem to of left the #1 planet growing for far to long..

[Proxi]

Originally Posted by Tietäjä

Now, just why, do you not believe Gate and Appocomaster when they say cathaars will be targetted hard and will be loosing a lot of roids? Uhm, err... I could list reasons, probably, but I'm with you on this one. Value cathaars will dominate, value/xp mix of terrans will come second.

Ill save you the hassle and list them for you

1. The most prevalant attack fleet in the universe is fr. Cathaar are immune to fr. (Not merely hard to hit with: immune)
2. There is very little bs about, and as such res sink into BW is low, which leaves money free for other ships.
3. Cathaar planets have more roids. This means more ships, which in turn makes it easier to hold onto their roids again. A vicious circle don't you know!
4. The Cathaar frigate fleet is a relatively powerful force, which is capable of capping more often than not.
5. Most Cathaar top planets have massive res stores, which make them unappealing targets come TP in most alliances.

Im quite sure theres a few i'm missing, but these are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Tietäjä

Now, just why, do you not believe Gate and Appocomaster when they say cathaars will be targetted hard and will be loosing a lot of roids? Uhm, err... I could list reasons, probably, but I'm with you on this one. Value cathaars will dominate, value/xp mix of terrans will come second.

I think it's very probable a value cath will win the round. Given enough time with no incomings or being a defence sink, a value advantage will just get larger and larger until they're extremely difficult to touch.

However, a cath that isn't on top will find things much harder. I've seen caths knocked out of the t100 and then relentlessly smacked up, and caths in the t100 getting relentless CO, DE, CR and/or BS incs...

As it is, I'm not so worried I overpowered caths that I underpowered xands, though xands should improve far more over the last couple of weeks as they wheel out spectres and can therefore save resources previously sunk into anti DE on other ships.

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by Gate

However, a cath that isn't on top will find things much harder. I've seen caths knocked out of the t100 and then relentlessly smacked up, and caths in the t100 getting relentless CO, DE, CR and/or BS incs...

Do yourself a favor and visit Sandman's Planetarion Wotsit and click around on the top100 cathaars and other races. You might find out that cathaars around in top100 have lost very litte roids in compared to the others. You see cathaars in top100 knocked. I see terrans, zikonians, and xandathrii in top100 ****ED IN THE ASS. There are planets there that have lost more than a thousand roids, and they aren't cath.

[Paddy]

From experience I can tell you that caths outside the very top ranks have a very hard time of it. I was around t20 as cath earlier in the round with a high value. However about 1 week after tick 72 I got 8 waves on me and have been falling down the ranks very fast since (admittedly not helped by suiciding an attack fleet once).

My point is that if a cath has very high value and plenty of roids then yes they are hard to touch and as such a cath value planet will probably win the round. However once you are outside the top 50 or so for value then as a cath you are wide open to fi/co/de/bs fleets from any planet bigger than you. The frigate fleet is also becoming far less effective, mostly due to its early round dominance forcing alliances to focus on frig defence.

As the round goes I expect the biggest caths to continue growing as the slightly smaller caths get roided frequently. As has been said in earlier in the thread, caths do very well early in the round because the amount of res needed to stop fleets is viable to be stored. As the round continues and fleets get bigger this won't be viable except for the t5-10 value caths. Any cath outside t5-10 will be roided frequently, as caths always have been in the past.

[XelNaga]

Xan keep their roids extremely well? That's complete non-sense, any Cath FR that doesn't get covered by someone else will take their roids without any resistance. If you grow big as Xan, prepare for lots of Cath incoming, every Xan that got to a size comparable to that of the big Caths (not even those at top) got roided down in no time.

[rshih]

Originally Posted by Tietäjä

Do yourself a favor and visit Sandman's Planetarion Wotsit and click around on the top100 cathaars and other races. You might find out that cathaars around in top100 have lost very litte roids in compared to the others. You see cathaars in top100 knocked. I see terrans, zikonians, and xandathrii in top100 ****ED IN THE ASS. There are planets there that have lost more than a thousand roids, and they aren't cath.

2:2:6 and 2:3:6 are at least 2 caths I can think of who are near the top in total roids lost.

[Lei~]

Xans Point of view on the Caths:

Ive been playing xan for many rounds now and seldom has playing xan been as fun as this round for me. There are mainly two reasons for this:
a, ive build myself a nice swarm of fi as any good xan should, and they rock!
b, theres loads of targs for my swarm.

So cath are strong against basically all races and i cannot defend against them. Who gives a damn tho? I can still get those roids back and my ships are faster and can therefore fly more attacks. I think those few xan who survive this round til the end with their fleet intact, will have a good time of killing of the value-caths at the end. Alrdy theres seldom a cath being able to defend against me.

Thanks for the nice stats gate i feel theyre very playable for all races. Even those alrdy prophesized dead or unplayable.

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

The only real way to roid cath is terran de plus suicide beetles. I built 300 scorpions myself for gal defence and it pretty much stops anything and everything going.

At this point of the game caths have got my de fleet and bs fleet due to 0 loss, but as some caths are getting the cr fleet up. I will be looking to focus more on other races.

Nothing like taking the cream away from a fat cat.

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Lei~

Thanks for the nice stats gate i feel theyre very playable for all races. Even those alrdy prophesized dead or unplayable.

I do feel I underpowered the banshee though. I took a gamble on there being significant numbers of mandrakes and scorpions available, I definitely overestimated the mandrake.

On the plus side for xands, they are eaten up by caths but in most cases simply don't lose ships, which allows them to keep value, whilst in saving their roids, if caths can't self cover completely, they get small chunks taken out of their fleet each time.

Hence why we're now up to 17 xands in top 100.

[Tietäjä]

No, you did not overestimate the mandrake - you overestimated the amount of mandrakes around. It's a very good fast reliable defence ship against cathaars, and I've probably never had a cath land on my mands.

There is just so few terrans around (it is why there are still 35 cathaars in top100). Fighter xandathrii has the problem of being a one hit wonder only geared up against cathaars, with very limited efficiency against terrans, and not really a chance against reasonable xans and ziks.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Gate

I do feel I underpowered the banshee though. I took a gamble on there being significant numbers of mandrakes and scorpions available, I definitely overestimated the mandrake.

I disagree with Keizari, the Mandrake was overestimated. See my previous calc on r15 vsh v r17 mandrake for the reasons.

On the plus side for xands, they are eaten up by caths but in most cases simply don't lose ships, which allows them to keep value, whilst in saving their roids, if caths can't self cover completely, they get small chunks taken out of their fleet each time.

I think the cath 'dominance' is a bit overrated because of this. People don't see that Banshees never die, so if you start lagging behind as Cath you only get worse and it's easier to flak through your EMP def etc. Whereas if you're ahead of the curve it only gets easier to get through defense and easier to build enough EMP def.

This is why Cath remain, as furball quoted on the Banshee thread, the 'winner' or 'scanner' race.

[WeaponX]

Originally Posted by Gate

I do feel I underpowered the banshee though. I took a gamble on there being significant numbers of mandrakes and scorpions available, I definitely overestimated the mandrake.

On the plus side for xands, they are eaten up by caths but in most cases simply don't lose ships, which allows them to keep value, whilst in saving their roids, if caths can't self cover completely, they get small chunks taken out of their fleet each time.

Hence why we're now up to 17 xands in top 100.

4 xan in top 50, only one of them being in the top 25...

[Banned]

Originally Posted by WeaponX

4 xan in top 50, only one of them being in the top 25...

Give it time.

[rshih]

As for top 100 though, xans now have more than terran at 21 to 16 and ziks have passed caths at 33 to 30

[robban1]

Originally Posted by rshih

As for top 100 though, xans now have more than terran at 21 to 16 and ziks have passed caths at 33 to 30

hehe point is? :

[Rocko]

but look at top 10,.. ziks have none in top 10 atm,.. cath have 6,.. and i don't see them loosing out to many terrans or xans,.. maybe the ziks will take over in a couple of weeks time,.. time will tell :P

[furball]

Originally Posted by Rocko

but look at top 10,.. ziks have none in top 10 atm,.. cath have 6,.. and i don't see them loosing out to many terrans or xans,.. maybe the ziks will take over in a couple of weeks time,.. time will tell :P

Give it time. I doubt you're even halfway through the round yet. The last third of the round is when xans and ziks come to the fore.

[JonnyBGood]

Xans won't come to the fore as much at the end of this round. What happened previously, and say especially last round, was that it became impossible to hit a xan without losses, and the bigger xans grew exponentially. This round a straightforward cath fr fleet will be able to go right through a xan, theoretically the same was true last round but a) you have more value caths this round and b) it's fr targetting co, which is not part of the xan attack fleet and therefore won't always be present in huge numbers, as opposed to last round's cr targetting fr, which was a xan's main attack fleet. You always have the quite marvellous faking potential of a cath against a xan this round.

[Illmaticks]

Cathaar are way too powerful.

Xandathrii are way too weak, and too easily defended against. Decent at defending, though, but thats it.

And that was my three lines on the subject.

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Illmaticks

Cathaar are way too powerful.

Xandathrii are way too weak, and too easily defended against. Decent at defending, though, but thats it.

And that was my three lines on the subject.

I'm finding myself disagreeing here.

I think I may have overpowered zik, and underpowered terran. Going by % playing and % in top 500:

___________Playing___Top 500___% difference
Terran______33________14________-58
Cathaar_____18________23________+28
Xandathrii___25________28________+12
Zikonian_____24________33________+38

From this point of view, ziks are overperforming whilst terrans are massively underperforming. Some of this can be accounted for: I expect a lower proportion of terrans as I know very few regular t100 players who went terran (Paisley, Keizari?), whilst some top alliances went terran light. On the other hand, there is the expected higher proportion of caths in there... however, ziks are doing very well with highest avg value, score, and filling up more t100/t500 spots than anyone else...

[WeaponX]

Originally Posted by Gate

I'm finding myself disagreeing here.

I think I may have overpowered zik, and underpowered terran. Going by % playing and % in top 500:

___________Playing___Top 500___% difference
Terran______33________14________-58
Cathaar_____18________23________+28
Xandathrii___25________28________+12
Zikonian_____24________33________+38

From this point of view, ziks are overperforming whilst terrans are massively underperforming. Some of this can be accounted for: I expect a lower proportion of terrans as I know very few regular t100 players who went terran (Paisley, Keizari?), whilst some top alliances went terran light. On the other hand, there is the expected higher proportion of caths in there... however, ziks are doing very well with highest avg value, score, and filling up more t100/t500 spots than anyone else...

i think its wrong to look at it that way Gate...

i would look at it in different steps, <- first top 10, then top 30, then top 50, then top 100 and then top 200

looking at the whole top 500 gives a total wrong picture

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by Gate

: I expect a lower proportion of terrans as I know very few regular t100 players who went terran (Paisley, Keizari?),.

It's not about "underperforming" or "overperforming". It's the fact that the statistics are rather unbalanced, and the bias making cathaar a winner race has resulted in an ackward universe structure. Terran is a good race offensively, but really, I've had more than 150 incoming hostile fleets this round...

... Which says a lot, sapper saying "Every zik and xan think they and their dogs can walk right over us". The statistics are at the moment a set of zero-loss defences that form a network of "whatnot and whatcan walk right over race a or c without needing half assed effort to it".

[Thefoundation]

Well overpowerdness of Cath will decline (look how many mandrakes are around!, how many scorpions). Frigs will decline in nr and Xan Co and Cath cr will take over

[XelNaga]

Yes, Xan CO will take over. \o/

[DunkelGraf]

\o/

[Dotatrix]

Originally Posted by XelNaga

Yes, Xan CO will take over. \o/

Xel, why don't you attack with the fecking xan CO!!11

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by Thefoundation

Well overpowerdness of Cath will decline (look how many mandrakes are around!, how many scorpions). Frigs will decline in nr and Xan Co and Cath cr will take over

No, we're actually reaching a stage of the round where attacking becomes dodgy. Tech trees are done, and there's now zero-loss (a fetish which I feel was taken too far) against most classes, so wherever you go, you might easily bump into a ton of mandrakes/wyverns/spectres/scorpions/clippers whatsoever. Because we're at the point where fleets are becoming larger and roids are less significant (as in compared to first half where fleets were smaller and a cap of 200 roids could rather fast pay itself back), attacking becomes (more or less) stagnant in compared to what it was early on. Cruisers are many and get through because there's only so much anti-cr floating (and it's often in attack fleets), and the zero-loss anti-cr won't get everywhere (though smart cathaars and terrans are saved from cr incs vastly).

[Thefoundation]

ask top 50 cath's this past days there has been a major increase in anti frig def. There is always some 700 scorps or 4k mandrakes waiting for you. (and these arnt even top 100 TARGETS)

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Thefoundation

ask top 50 cath's this past days there has been a major increase in anti frig def. There is always some 700 scorps or 4k mandrakes waiting for you. (and these arnt even top 100 TARGETS)

My frigs have been defended against almost all round long :/

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Gate

I'm finding myself disagreeing here.

I think I may have overpowered zik, and underpowered terran. Going by % playing and % in top 500:

You can't decide if stats are balanced based solely on how many of them there are, and how many are in the top100.

The problem is that if a race is shit for 800 ticks, and then starts taking over, you've effectively made half that race's round boring. The effectiveness of a fleet, at all stages, should in my opinion to be up to the fleet builder, not the stats designer.

In this round I've felt that my fleet's quality has been up to me. I don't feel that my Zik galmates had that impression for the first half of the round, but they're definitely more so now. Whereas I now feel that big Zik will just ruin my day (privs are hard to stop and priv incoming means I can't go out roiding).

I suspect Xandathrii players felt (and probably still feel) very much at the mercy of Recluses.

Mind you, none of this is an accusation against Gate. I think the current stats have some problems, but overall they're enjoyable. I like this round, and the stats have contributed to that.

[isildurx]

Originally Posted by Banned

I like this round, and the stats have contributed to that.

I tend to agree on that

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Tietäjä

No, we're actually reaching a stage of the round where attacking becomes dodgy. Tech trees are done, and there's now zero-loss (a fetish which I feel was taken too far) against most classes, so wherever you go, you might easily bump into a ton of mandrakes/wyverns/spectres/scorpions/clippers whatsoever. Because we're at the point where fleets are becoming larger and roids are less significant (as in compared to first half where fleets were smaller and a cap of 200 roids could rather fast pay itself back), attacking becomes (more or less) stagnant in compared to what it was early on. Cruisers are many and get through because there's only so much anti-cr floating (and it's often in attack fleets), and the zero-loss anti-cr won't get everywhere (though smart cathaars and terrans are saved from cr incs vastly).

I think in general we're going to find ziks being the only race consistently able to cap thanks to their faking capabilities. I've liked the stats for the round so far, I've felt they've struck the balance nicely, but I am worried about the rest of the round.

[Rocko]

first round as a zik for me,.. i think they've been balanced very well,.. Terrans i think were week from the start and still do,. they just needed one more advantage, probably against co/fi,... while caths could have done with not having both of their pod classes the same as another races (crui shared with zik, frig shared with xan).

[Tearz]

Originally Posted by Gate

My frigs have been defended against almost all round long :/

I still dont have CR, and have managed ok with a pure FR fleet.

It's been damned frustrating at time, landing on mandrakes has pretty much been "the norm"

[rshih]

Much more xans in top 100 now... tied with cath atm, but caths still dominate top 50 with most of the xans being barely in top 100.