Finance Centers

[s|k]

Okay, I’m hearing a lot of nonsense about finance centers on IRC. People don’t seem to know how to do some basic mathematics. Finance centers are not providing you with more resources than a refinery after 300 roids. It is not until you have more than twice that, about 800 roids that finance centers even equal a refinery.

The confusion is happening because people are making a mistake because they think of 3 different types of resources. That’s irrelevant. Resources are resources:

A finance center brings in .5%, let’s say you have 60 roids, 20 of each. A roid brings in 250 resources in. Here is what you get for one finance center
5,000 * .005 = 25 Metal
5,000 * .005 = 25 Crystal
5,000 * .005 = 25 Eonium
25(3) = 75 Total Resouces
5,000 * 3 = 15,000
15,000 Total Resouces * .005 = 75 Total Resources

See it doesn’t matter if you separate the types or not, total resources are the same.
Now with 300 TOTAL roids you only get 375 TOTAL resources for each finance center while with one refinery you get 1,000 TOTAL resources for each refinery.

300(250) = 75,000
75,000 * .005 = 375 TOTAL

Well then you say, but a refinery is only one type of resources. But after someone builds 3 constructions it’s obvious:

3 different refineries with 300 roids (number of roids irrelevant) you get:
M refinery = 1,000 M
C refinery = 1,000 C
E refinery = 1,000 E
1,000 * 3 = 3,000 Total Resources

3 finance centers with 300 roids you get:
1st finance center = 375 TOTAL Resources (regardless of how roids are distributed)
2nd finance center = 375 TOTAL Resources (regardless of how roids are distributed)
3rd finance center = 375 TOTAL Resources (regardless of how roids are distributed)

375*3 = 1,125 TOTAL Resources

3,000 > 1125 hmm,k?
Refinery > Finance Center by far

Somebody check my math.

[NotALegend]

You also get % from the income from the refineries. So at the beginning you build refineries, and later you build finance centers (when they pay off more). Even a math-challenged person like me understands that. Heh.

[Rocko]

how dare u compare math to n00b logic :P
(Yes, i built one,. but just cus i didnt want it to feel left out :P)

[MAdnRisKy]

building 1 finance centre has other strategy involved though (such as sk)

[s|k]

Originally Posted by MAdnRisKy

building 1 finance centre has other strategy involved though (such as sk)

sk?

[noah02]

structure killers

[mens]

and I guess the stupid finance center bug (feature?) still is in place?

liek..don't build over 60 of them.

[NotALegend]

The more structures you have, the less likely is it that your factories are hit.

It is way off-topic though.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by NotALegend

The more structures you have, the less likely is it that your factories are hit.

You sir, are incorrect.

[Cochese]

I should have saved the combat report from last round where I had like 30 amps, one of each factory, and some other misc. stuff...lost my light/heavy factory, some mines, and NO amps.

[NotALegend]

Originally Posted by Banned

You sir, are incorrect.

So, if you have only factories they are just as likely to be striked as if you have one structure of each type?

Oh well, the manual is vague to say the least...

"Structure killing works similarly to roid capturing. Ships capable of structural bombardment fire at the structures. If enough damage is done to it, the structure is destroyed. "

We are still way off-topic thoug.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by NotALegend

So, if you have only factories they are just as likely to be striked as if you have one structure of each type?

Yeah. It's approved for change, but nothing's happened yet.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by s|k

Okay, I’m hearing a lot of nonsense about finance centers on IRC. People don’t seem to know how to do some basic mathematics. Finance centers are not providing you with more resources than a refinery after 300 roids. It is not until you have more than twice that, about 800 roids that finance centers even equal a refinery.

Your math looks correct (at least to me - but its not a strong point of mine ), however i have to disagree with your assessment that its 800 roids where Finance Centres > Refineries.

This is because the amount of resources that you gain from finance centres is variable (as opposed to fixed for Mines). This is important, as your finance centres grow as you grow. So the larger you become, the more beneficial it is to have more finance centres at an earlier time - assuming that there is a limited number of constructions you have have (ie opportunity cost).

Or have a totally buggered up there?

[god113]

Isn't building finance centres early instead of refineries kind of like, loosing a few resouces now to gain more later?

Because say you build 10 finance centres when you have around 300 roids instead of 10 refineries, even though you loose some income now, when you have 2000 roids will it now pay off? Because you will be 10 finance centres ahead of how you would be otherwise, and with that many roids that is a lot more resouces than you would be loose due to not building refineries.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by god113

Isn't building finance centres early instead of refineries kind of like, loosing a few resouces now to gain more later?

Because say you build 10 finance centres when you have around 300 roids instead of 10 refineries, even though you loose some income now, when you have 2000 roids will it now pay off? Because you will be 10 finance centres ahead of how you would be otherwise, and with that many roids that is a lot more resouces than you would be loose due to not building refineries.

That's kinda what i was hinting at

[god113]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

That's kinda what i was hinting at

Ah okay, sorry, I kind of missed that.


I think around 300-400 is a nice time to start building them, well, as soon as the immediate gain from the refineries stops being so significient. But if you're playing at the top it's much more beneficial to build them really early, if you're more of an averaged sized planet who it might take ages to get to 1000 roids, starting building them a bit later might be better. I always found it really hard to calc

[s|k]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Your math looks correct (at least to me - but its not a strong point of mine ), however i have to disagree with your assessment that its 800 roids where Finance Centres > Refineries.

This is because the amount of resources that you gain from finance centres is variable (as opposed to fixed for Mines). This is important, as your finance centres grow as you grow. So the larger you become, the more beneficial it is to have more finance centres at an earlier time - assuming that there is a limited number of constructions you have have (ie opportunity cost).

Or have a totally buggered up there?

Originally Posted by god113

Isn't building finance centres early instead of refineries kind of like, loosing a few resouces now to gain more later?

Because say you build 10 finance centres when you have around 300 roids instead of 10 refineries, even though you loose some income now, when you have 2000 roids will it now pay off? Because you will be 10 finance centres ahead of how you would be otherwise, and with that many roids that is a lot more resouces than you would be loose due to not building refineries.

As my mathmatics have clearly shown, unless you eventually get at least 800 roids you are only loosing resources. Not only do you need to have 800 roids at somepoint, but you have to have them early on and you have to keep the 800. I can show you the math for this too.

Most players will never see 800 roids much less acquire them early enough in the round to make it more profitable than refineries. If you're not in the top 500 right now, don't build these things.

[ChubbyChecker]

Another thing to take into account is that Finance Centres give you all resources, whereas a refinery only gives you one type.
Most races need more of one resource so this is an advantage to them. If you're say a Terran who keeps needing to trade metal with the Galaxy Fund you lose 5% of your resources every time you do it. So by having a Metal Refinery instead of a Finance Centre you are increasing your supply of metal thereby reducing the amount of metal you need to trade for with the Fund and reducing the resources lost through trading.

[TheRat]

Originally Posted by s|k

As my mathmatics have clearly shown, unless you eventually get at least 800 roids you are only loosing resources. Not only do you need to have 800 roids at somepoint, but you have to have them early on and you have to keep the 800. I can show you the math for this too.

Most players will never see 800 roids much less acquire them early enough in the round to make it more profitable than refineries. If you're not in the top 500 right now, don't build these things.

Your logic is so flawed you should be taken out the back and shot. Then revived and shot again.

1) Rank has NOTHING to do with roidcount. I am currently well within top500 (erm, lol) and have less than 200 roids. Acording to you I should build finance centers since I am top500, yet I will never get any use of em since I wont have 800 roids for a long enough period. Again, acording to your logic, top10 should certainly build FC's, yet the 2nd planet in the universe has just about 200 roids.

2) Every decent player sets out with the goal of being top50 at least, and with the experience of last round, most people in the top100 have way more than 800 roids when the round finishes. With this in mind, a player should also value the expected longterm benefits of the finance centers over the guaranteed short term benefits of mines. After all, the game is about taking chances.

[Alki]

Originally Posted by TheRat

Your logic is so flawed you should be taken out the back and shot. Then revived and shot again.

1) Rank has NOTHING to do with roidcount. I am currently well within top500 (erm, lol) and have less than 200 roids. Acording to you I should build finance centers since I am top500, yet I will never get any use of em since I wont have 800 roids for a long enough period. Again, acording to your logic, top10 should certainly build FC's, yet the 2nd planet in the universe has just about 200 roids.

2) Every decent player sets out with the goal of being top50 at least, and with the experience of last round, most people in the top100 have way more than 800 roids when the round finishes. With this in mind, a player should also value the expected longterm benefits of the finance centers over the guaranteed short term benefits of mines. After all, the game is about taking chances.

[Alessio]

Finance Centers for teh win!!
Stop this blasphemy
You guys upset my little planet

Ow wait..... im top 500... phew... thats a relief..
My Finance Centers can stay now

Originally Posted by TheRat

After all, the game is about taking chances.

Erm.. No, this game is about teh fight between evul 1up and LCH...
while letting other allies take away the nr 1 spot from both of us..
So we have something to post about on the forum between rounds..

[Alessio]

Owyeah just checked...

1000 (roids) * 0,005 = 5
So u get 1 roid for free from every 200 roids you have.. (per finance center)
so you need 800 roids to make the same profit as with mines...

Since you can get 90 roids or something from researches...
And you always mine 12 from your planet
You only need 698 roids...

With the FC's u can also get extra money from the mines who always count as 4 roids....
which u can also build when u already have the 60 finance centers

So it all just depends on how fast you can make that amount of roids and base your decision on that..
You can build FC's first as an investment in the future
Or you might wanna consider building mines first
and then FC's when you have like 618 roids, full res and 20 mines for example

[s|k]

Originally Posted by TheRat

Your logic is so flawed you should be taken out the back and shot. Then revived and shot again.

Seek help.

Originally Posted by TheRat

1) Rank has NOTHING to do with roidcount. I am currently well within top500 (erm, lol) and have less than 200 roids. Acording to you I should build finance centers since I am top500, yet I will never get any use of em since I wont have 800 roids for a long enough period. Again, acording to your logic, top10 should certainly build FC's, yet the 2nd planet in the universe has just about 200 roids.

I would say your understanding of logic is flawed but then I remembered you were an ace programmer so I'm forced to assume that your reading comprehension skills are lacking. You should read a post before commenting on it. I said if you aren't in the top 500 then you shouldn't pursue finance centers. Where you get that I said that top10 "should certainly build" FC's I don't know. My whole argument is against them. Let me put it in terms you can understand.

if($position > 500){
         dontbuildFCs();
}else{
         dowhathellyouwant();
}

Originally Posted by TheRat

2) Every decent player sets out with the goal of being top50 at least, and with the experience of last round, most people in the top100 have way more than 800 roids when the round finishes. With this in mind, a player should also value the expected longterm benefits of the finance centers over the guaranteed short term benefits of mines. After all, the game is about taking chances.

Riiight, you see you need to spend more time on the bottom seeing red after red on your screen and watching your gal mates plundered to recognize the hoplessness of being somewhere between rank 900 and 2100. Not everyone can be top 500, but if you get fiance centers when you'll never have 800 roids, then you'll never get top 1000 either. It's about doing the best YOU can do, not doing the best. Not everyone is such an amazingly good player like you who can reach the "top500 (erm, lol) ." And to be honest if you are playing that well this thread wasn't intended for you because it was all about ending the misconception of FC == Refinery @ 300 roids.

Thank you.

[Tietäjä]

A sidenote: a long term way of thinking finance centers. The prime race this applies to is Xan.

Tick1-100: finance centers.
Tick101-1001: finance centers.

At the point where you do reach the 1000 roids and have core to back up, the *old* finance centers will slowly start paying back for what you missed early on. Plus, you never utterly screwed over your resource curve.