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Unread 19 Jul 2016, 16:58   #51
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
quick look, but the pegasus and clippers a.c d.c are both done??

edit: tbh looks like u want a very offensive set of stats... i sux looking into it, but almost all att classes pre fires def class...
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Unread 19 Jul 2016, 17:01   #52
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Here's the output of my new and improved stats analysis tool:

Short: contains only 'immune' or 'vulnerable' for each fleet to every other fleet.
Long: also contains the value change after each possible battle.
Full: also has the full brep of each possible battle.

My analysis tool works as follows.

An algoritm is used to create a reasonable (not "perfect", whatever that is!) fleet composition around each pod. For each pod that is selected, first all the escorts for that pod are added (more downward than upward firing ships) and then the remaining targetting gaps are filled with defense ships. Value distribution is roughly 2/3 attack fieet, 1/3 defense ships, for 1m value total. For example, for Ter De, 568 Demeter are built as pods, 35926 Pegasus and 11468 Chimera are added as escorts, and 10417 Phoenix, 4187 Syren, 3333 Wyvern and 3193 Dragon fulfill the role of defense ships.

Each fleet is then pitted against every other fleet, with the following modification: the value of the defender is reduced to 70%, to take into account that people mostly either attack downward or team up. When a fleet is attacked by another fleet, the defender has a choice of which ships to defend with. Because I could not figure out a way to determine the best possible outcome for the defenders in advance, I just simulate all options. Each ship that fires at the given attacker is tried individually, with and without flak. Afterwards, all defense ships that fire at the given attacker are used together, again both with and without flak. See Mosquito vs Illusion for an example where the defender has a choice between no less than 8 fleet compositions: flakked and unflakked Phantom, flakked and unflakked Ghost, flakked and unflakked Peacekeeper, and flakked and unflakked Phantom + Ghost + Peacekeeper. Flak in this context is 1) all 'useless' ships that are in the same class as a 'useful' defense ship (classic flak) and 2) all ships that the attacker doesn't kill or steal (covers 0-loss defense and EMP flak). T2 flak is not tried (sending Phantom to flak for Harpy against Ghost, for instance).

This results in a number of possible battles, which I run through a homegrown bcalc.

If all of these battles would result in the attacker choosing to land, then that means the defender is vulnerable to being roided by the attacker. On the other hand, if one or more of them would result in a reasonable attacker choosing to recall, then the defender is immune to being roided by the attacker, because that's obviously the combination of defending ships the defender would pick. Whether or not the simulated attacker is willing to land depends on how much the they lose compared to the defender, as well as the outcome of !roidcost: the more the defender loses, the more the attacker is willing to lose. However, I find that 80%-90% of lands are no contest: they are either nearly lossless for the attackers, or total massacres in the defender's favour.

In the Mosquito vs. Illusion example above, all 8 possible choices for the defender are lossless for the attacker, so Illusion is vulnerable to Mosquito. The same is not true for the very next matchup, Mosquito vs. Vampyre, in which the attacking Mosquito fleet needs about 71 ticks (roidcap of 200, Corp, 30 FCs) to recoup its losses and the defenders gain 11k value to boot (standard salvage).


The weakest aspect of my simulator is the fleet compositions. The program doesn't make straight-up stupid choices, but sometimes they could be more optimal. For example, if you're going Ter De, you might prefer building Harpy (makes ally def ETA) rather than splitting your value between Syren (T2 overlaps with Chimera) and Wyvern. Or you might not, because having both Wyvern and Dragon (which you need anyway) gives you 2 roiding fleets. There are choices to make that depend on more than just the raw data in the stats sheet and the user should be given the option to make those choices.

The format of the output also isn't the greatest.

No teamups, neither for attack nor defense: too much work.


[edit] I think I fixed all the formatting errors in my links now, plus I included the fleet compositions the program decides on.
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 19 Jul 2016 at 17:21.
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Unread 19 Jul 2016, 17:49   #53
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph View Post
quick look, but the pegasus and clippers a.c d.c are both done??

edit: tbh looks like u want a very offensive set of stats... i sux looking into it, but almost all att classes pre fires def class...
This is how it has to be with so much defense readily available these days.
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Unread 19 Jul 2016, 23:12   #54
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by Papadoc View Post
This is how it has to be with so much defense readily available these days.
I thought they were gonna remove the feature...
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Unread 20 Jul 2016, 12:30   #55
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Why would they?
Finally an improvement to a dying game.

Just bring offensive stats
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Unread 20 Jul 2016, 14:54   #56
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
Why would they?
Finally an improvement to a dying game.

Just bring offensive stats
Well i think you gotta ask them that.
Or ask yourself if it was the right improvement, wich it obviously wasnt so far.
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Unread 20 Jul 2016, 20:02   #57
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Well i think you gotta ask them that.
Or ask yourself if it was the right improvement, wich it obviously wasnt so far.
Why do you say it wasn't the right improvement? What makes you think so?

For me it has several advantages like

* reducing the waking up in the middle of the night for many

* enables defence for players in lower ranked alliances

* evens the field a little between top gals and medium ones through it

* makes dcing a lot more comfortable, probably resulting in more ppl willing to actively DC ( in p3n at least)


The only downside to me seems the combination with a defensive set like eg last rounds. But usually those defensive sets lead to stagnation in every round, no matter ally def feature. Just with the feature the gap between top and medium gals isnt that huge, as the top shots will have unusual issues landing ( for them)

Overall it makes the game less elitist in my eyes
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Unread 20 Jul 2016, 22:36   #58
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Well i think you gotta ask them that.
Or ask yourself if it was the right improvement, wich it obviously wasnt so far.
(Hijacking the thread anyone?)

It was the right improvement.
I'm sorry that the defence fleet gave the less active alliances a chance to actually defend which made your bottom feeding a harder..
(And don't attempt to claim you didn't bottom feed, RainbowS clearly did)

And I guess since RainbowS did not have any serious incs it has no advantage for RainbowS and only disadvantages..
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Unread 21 Jul 2016, 00:32   #59
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Well papadoc just said a reason why it is gonna get removed.
and Bram gave another reason why its gonna get removed, there is no point attacking alliances that you cant land, resulting into the only alliances losing roids is VGN and HR.
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Unread 21 Jul 2016, 03:14   #60
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

I for one would like to see a continuation of the ally def fleet.
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Unread 21 Jul 2016, 11:02   #61
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Well papadoc just said a reason why it is gonna get removed.
and Bram gave another reason why its gonna get removed, there is no point attacking alliances that you cant land, resulting into the only alliances losing roids is VGN and HR.
I did not gave a reason to get it removed.
I am in HR;
I want to keep the alliance def fleet feature;
We did make RainbowS attacker recall on most of the occasions. Without the alliance def fleet we would've lost roids in a lot more cases.

The alliance def fleet is a benefit for the less active alliance, i.e. for HR.
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Unread 21 Jul 2016, 11:59   #62
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by Bram View Post
(Hijacking the thread anyone?)

It was the right improvement.
I'm sorry that the defence fleet gave the less active alliances a chance to actually defend which made your bottom feeding a harder..
(And don't attempt to claim you didn't bottom feed, RainbowS clearly did)

And I guess since RainbowS did not have any serious incs it has no advantage for RainbowS and only disadvantages..
Rainbows tried to hit HR the same as the others. But Rainbows also put as many targets with no intel as it could. That's probably why it ended hitting HR more than planned.

And I totally agree with you. The defense fleet is what made it hard to land against alliances known for its lack of defense. ND, CT, Bows, Norse, PENG and HR def improved a lot.

Imho, all agreements to control incs are two-sided. If one makes it easier to cover incs from a certain alliance, the other way around should be expected..
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Unread 23 Jul 2016, 19:58   #63
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Is there any chance of the silly emp t2 thing being fixed? If not, please take into consideration that emp t2 is insanely overpowered when making stats.
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Unread 23 Jul 2016, 21:32   #64
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

What are you referring to, bass? This is the first I hear of T2 EMP being overpowered.
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Unread 23 Jul 2016, 22:04   #65
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

OK, If I'm understanding it correctly, the problem is this:

ERes falls in a range from 0 to 100. If you want the smallest ship to cost about 150 resources and have an ERes of 0, then each EMP gun that fires at that ship hugs 150 resources. If you want to have some room for tweaking at the top end of the range, then the highest ERes you can use is about 95. That means 5% of guns go through, and if you want that 5% to also stop 150 resources worth of ships, then the biggest ship you can make should cost 150 * 20 = 3000.

It is not uncommon for Ter BS to be on the order of 10K resources. That kind of disparity between small and large ships has some flavour to it. A real world naval battleship has a complement of a few thousand, not 20.

Therefore, you have a problem. If a gun firing at a Cr/Bs stops 500 resources and a gun firing at Fi/Co stops 150 resources, then if a ship fires at Co T1 and Cr T2, then at 60% efficiency it is still twice times as strong against T2 than it is against T1. And vice versa, if it fires at Cr T1 and Co T2, then its T2 efficiency is just 18% of its T1 efficiency.

In an example from last round, a Guardian stops 6825 resources worth of Drake (T1) and 6711 resources worth of Wyvern (T2).

I ran into this problem with my r50 stats as welland I solved it by not having EMP ships fire at multiple meta-classes. No Co/Fr, no De/Cr. With that rule, you can have different target efficiencies for different metaclasses, say 100 resources per gun against Fi/Co, 400 against Fr/De and 1000 against Cr/Bs. You could also put the boundaries elsewhere, for example between Fr and De.

Ultimately, there is no bug there. The combat engine does what you tell it to do, and if you tell it something stupid, it'll do something stupid. It's just one more thing to keep in mind when doing stats.
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Unread 24 Jul 2016, 22:23   #66
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
In an example from last round, a Guardian stops 6825 resources worth of Drake (T1) and 6711 resources worth of Wyvern (T2).

I ran into this problem with my r50 stats as welland I solved it by not having EMP ships fire at multiple meta-classes. No Co/Fr, no De/Cr. With that rule, you can have different target efficiencies for different metaclasses, say 100 resources per gun against Fi/Co, 400 against Fr/De and 1000 against Cr/Bs. You could also put the boundaries elsewhere, for example between Fr and De.
I'm not sure if I understand what the problem actually is. If you want the Guardian to be less effective T2, why not simply raise all Bs's ERes? (and increase guns on ships with T1 Bs accordingly).
It only becomes a problem when you have multiple EMP ships firing in different directions. What ship on which stats would be problematic?

PS. the silence on stats this close to signups has me slightly worried...
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Unread 25 Jul 2016, 00:03   #67
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
PS. the silence on stats this close to signups has me slightly worried...
I got to admit i was expecting more moans about my beta stats
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Unread 25 Jul 2016, 00:16   #68
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Not really a moan, but clipper init 4 and steal?
No beta testing on these stats required then?
No other rivals either by the looks of it....tad worrying
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Unread 25 Jul 2016, 05:26   #69
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Not really a moan, but clipper init 4 and steal?
No beta testing on these stats required then?
No other rivals either by the looks of it....tad worrying
that was an error on the stats part and has been corrected
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Unread 25 Jul 2016, 08:53   #70
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
I'm not sure if I understand what the problem actually is. If you want the Guardian to be less effective T2, why not simply raise all Bs's ERes? (and increase guns on ships with T1 Bs accordingly).
You can, to an extent. This would've worked for last round's stats, I think. Wyvern ERes to 90 and an adjustment of anti-Bs EMP guns accordingly. That's the same as saying anti-Bs guns should hug fewer resources.

But this does not always work, because you cannot keep raising ERes indefinitely. There's a hard limit at 100, a nearly-as-hard limit at 99, and a somewhat softer one (for balancing reasons) at ~95.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
It only becomes a problem when you have multiple EMP ships firing in different directions.
Indeed. This is why having (an) artificial barrier(s) in the stats that ship targetting cannot straddle is so useful. In essense, it splits your stats in two, allowing you to balance each half independently.
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Unread 25 Jul 2016, 10:19   #71
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Just a thought, what's stopping the odd steal ship having a lower init? and potentially firing before some other ships? e.g. Clipper init 4 - just corrected?

Is there an issue with doing this?
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Unread 25 Jul 2016, 11:32   #72
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by H1dd3n_Ag3nda View Post
Just a thought, what's stopping the odd steal ship having a lower init? and potentially firing before some other ships? e.g. Clipper init 4 - just corrected?

Is there an issue with doing this?
Probably not however some players don't like it when you don't stick to the familar
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Unread 25 Jul 2016, 23:10   #73
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

I would be surprised if the combat engine couldn't handle certain steal ships firing before certain kill ships. After all, it has at various points been able to handle pods firing before steal ships.
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Unread 25 Jul 2016, 23:39   #74
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Something to do with stealing a ship before it fires, then the stolen ship participates in combat...leading to issues arising from that.

I vaguely remember that coming up a long time ago.
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Unread 26 Jul 2016, 05:39   #75
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

That was 'subverting' but the ships were stolen just for the combat tick.
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Unread 26 Jul 2016, 07:35   #76
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochese View Post
Something to do with stealing a ship before it fires, then the stolen ship participates in combat...leading to issues arising from that.
Hmm, I don't think that should occur any more, seeing as stolen ships cannot be targetted in the tick they're stolen either. Easy to test though, by someone who has access to the beta stats. Paisley?
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Unread 26 Jul 2016, 11:45   #77
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Hmm, I don't think that should occur any more, seeing as stolen ships cannot be targetted in the tick they're stolen either. Easy to test though, by someone who has access to the beta stats. Paisley?
I could ask appoco for a beta to try it out and see what happens but I prefer to do it post round as im pretty much done with my set and is ready for selection.
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Unread 26 Jul 2016, 12:17   #78
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Go with the beta, worse case, we run your stats through the mill a little
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Unread 26 Jul 2016, 19:52   #79
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
I could ask appoco for a beta to try it out and see what happens but I prefer to do it post round as im pretty much done with my set and is ready for selection.
I mean you could temporarily set a low init ship to steal and test it in the bcalc.
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Unread 26 Jul 2016, 20:58   #80
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I mean you could temporarily set a low init ship to steal and test it in the bcalc.
I tried it when I changed the clipper's damage to steal the calc would go "wonky" between stealing and damage when I was playing around with the calc... not sure how record it on to forums
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Unread 27 Jul 2016, 05:51   #81
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

quick analyze of paisley's set (currently on beta server)

pro's:
* offensive
* a lot of faking options (specially when stealing pods)

con's:
* no synergy between ter/zik de combo - specially for terran
* only 2 teamups possible (without stealing); e.g. ter/zik de, cat/zik cr
* high potential for shipfarming due to a lot of options for 1 ship = full attack fleet; e.g. terran getting fi pods, ter getting cr pods, cat getting de pods, xan getting de pods, xan getting cr pods, zik getting fi pods, zik getting bs pods

you see, there is 1 point about this set, i got listed for pro' and con's:
the shipstealing/faking factor
its a good thing there are several options for covopping/stealing pods and do succesful fakes, however it seems overpowered (speciallly for xan) to me, simply due to the fact that e.g. fi, de, cr and bs class only target 2 classes which can be covered by a single ship if you get the pods

as much as i like this from my own single player perspective (i love playing xan covops) i know it will be abused by many ppl using shipfarms/shipdonations.

so sadly i think this set (as much as i like its look) is way too much of a farmers set

fazit: please dont use (in its current state) until we established an effective and active MH-Team
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Unread 27 Jul 2016, 22:03   #82
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

your set of stats have the same issue then, u are almost asking terran to covop fr PODS... and then u give only one ship (etd cr) to stop a FR combo, despite u have emp power against it...

atleast paisley stats have a ship that single cover DE incs (wyvern), CR vs BS kinda make each other doable, etc.
only problem i see is xan too strong with FI FR fake option..

anyway...

both set os stats have problems, but both are doable...
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Unread 28 Jul 2016, 08:03   #83
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

I think you might have missed my point.

Im not about that i dont wanna See steal/fake options.

Im about single ship = full attack Fleet

Paisley stats hold several of those
Mine none

If Paisley could removr those (specially for xan) it would fix. He can't though as it would mean a complete overhaul of targeting .
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Unread 28 Jul 2016, 11:14   #84
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
I think you might have missed my point.

Im not about that i dont wanna See steal/fake options.

Im about single ship = full attack Fleet

Paisley stats hold several of those
Mine none

If Paisley could removr those (specially for xan) it would fix. He can't though as it would mean a complete overhaul of targeting .
Idd
Now i see it
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Unread 28 Jul 2016, 12:10   #85
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Im not seeing it.

I just dont like the set
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Unread 28 Jul 2016, 17:46   #86
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

i dont like PA BB, thats the truth..

anyway, both sets are doable..

let them pick one and players will fit in!!

good luck pa team
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