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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 09:08   #1
s|k
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Time to rethink?

Another stroke for the terrorist. Boy they're just 3 for 4 in the western hemisphere aren't they now. Not too shabby results.

1) Was the first bombing of the WTC - that seems like now like a big failure with no lasting repercussions.

2) 9/11 - The U. S. responds by helping to overthrow the Taliban in Afghanistan and invade Iraq creating a breeding ground for fanaticsm and a training ground for future islamic fighters. Also allowing the US to portray themselves to the Arabs as the Satan they've been made out to be.

3) Madrid Train Bombing - Mostly a PR victory - but also possibly changed the outcome of the Spanish election and got Spanish troops out of Iraq.

4) The London Bombings - led to those five shots that removed the illusionary stoicsm that seemed to cover the face of Britons. Note: if you're of Asian or Middle Eastern descent it is advised that you don't go running through London, especially in crowded areas - it may be hazerdous to your health - even if you did not just leave a house under surveillance.

See now it is You in the spot, now it is you who is angry, aggresively patriotic and nationalistic. Go neg rep the angry American.

I don't think what happened here was a good thing. And I'm not taunting any of you - all though I'd be lying if there wasn't just a bit of spite in me - but the truth is none of us really know how to deal with terrorism or how to fight it. I think we continually try to dismiss these non uniformed warriors as cowards and petty thugs. But the damage they are doing is not petty at all, is it.

Maybe terrorism does work. Lebanon in the 1980's got the US to leave after hundreds of Marines were killed (I have met a Marine who was there that day the barracks were blown up). It has led to the victories I have already mentioned. Israel is leaving the Gaza strip - you don't really think that's because they've suddenly realized that they've been wrong all along and had serious change of heart do you? There are far fewer U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia then before the U.S. A.F. base was blown up. And now what do you think most Britons are talking about? What are most people in the world talking about right now? A certain someone having been shot five times. FIVE TIMES. I have fired semi-automatic hand guns (if that's what was used - an automatic rifle you wouldn't have been able to count the shots so easily) - five times is not just a calculated professional way to bring down a fugitive, at least it doesn't seem that way to most people who aren't getting emotionally defensive about it.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 09:40   #2
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Re: Time to rethink?

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Originally Posted by s|k
The London Bombings - led to those five shots that removed the illusionary stoicsm that seemed to cover the face of Britons.
What has stoicism got to do with anything?
Quote:
five times is not just a calculated professional way to bring down a fugitive, at least it doesn't seem that way to most people who aren't getting emotionally defensive about it.
I doubt all shots were fired by the same person, but they were trying to kill him after all. Five shots seems a fairly certain way of killing someone.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 09:47   #3
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Re: Time to rethink?

The reason five shots were used (it's rumoured, I'm not quite sure what to make of the BBC at the moment) is that low velocity bullets were used to minimise the risk to civilians hence more than one shot was needed to finish the fella off. If you've got someone who's been under surveillance for days for terrorist activity, then runs for it with wires coming out of him down a tube, I don't see any other option than restraining him, shooting him, and bloody well making sure he's out for the count cos if he isn't the last thing he's going to try and do, is blow himself up. From my view if what we've learned is true, everything is above board.

Seriously, as long as the security services have some kind of justification for it, I think people are pretty comfortable with the shooting. We're well aware that there might be some terrorist cell trying to beat us into submission, we can't let that happen, I'm afraid. And last I checked Northern Ireland was part of the UK, so terrorism doesn't always 'win'.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 10:07   #4
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Re: Time to rethink?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I doubt all shots were fired by the same person, but they were trying to kill him after all. Five shots seems a fairly certain way of killing someone.
eyewitnesses said that the dude fell and the police officers stood over him and fired 5 shots at him... would take a pretty crap police officer to miss from point blank range
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 10:15   #5
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Re: Time to rethink?

I've no problem with our police force shooting someone five times.

He was in the station, he was running for a reason, given the current situation that wasn't really a good move for an innocent foriegner.

Either way, guilty of something or not, he shouldn't have ran. Natural selection took care of itself, with a little help from a 9mm round (or five). Win / win.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 10:18   #6
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Re: Time to rethink?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Another stroke for the terrorist. Boy they're just 3 for 4 in the western hemisphere aren't they now. Not too shabby results.

2) 9/11 - The U. S. responds by helping to overthrow the Taliban in Afghanistan and invade Iraq creating a breeding ground for fanaticsm and a training ground for future islamic fighters. Also allowing the US to portray themselves to the Arabs as the Satan they've been made out to be.
I'm not sure that I would consider the overthrow of the Taliban to be part of a complete success for the Islamists, assuming that is what you meant. The United States was already portrayed as the Great Satan by much of the Muslim world long before the Taliban were overthrown.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 11:17   #7
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Re: Time to rethink?

that part is larger now though. and the taliban isnt dead yet. as far as i know things become worse again in afganistan at the moment. and then you gave them a whole new playground in iraq.

madrid, london, egypt, turkey, ... i would not exactly call the war on terror a success just yet.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 11:55   #8
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Re: Time to rethink?

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Originally Posted by wu_trax
that part is larger now though. and the taliban isnt dead yet. as far as i know things become worse again in afganistan at the moment. and then you gave them a whole new playground in iraq.

madrid, london, egypt, turkey, ... i would exactly call the war on terror a success just yet.
I was not calling the war on terror a success, only that the Taliban are no longer running Afghanistan, and the Islamist probably should not consider that a success.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 12:38   #9
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Re: Time to rethink?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
See now it is You in the spot, now it is you who is angry, aggresively patriotic and nationalistic.
What?
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 12:45   #10
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Re: Time to rethink?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
See now it is You in the spot, now it is you who is angry, aggresively patriotic and nationalistic. Go neg rep the angry American.
Part of the difference is how we've dealt with it. Sure, theres always been racial tension in Britain, sure its heightened. But for the most part we're all going on with our dailly lives and not buying in political/emotional crap, hanging flags out our windows, crossing the street if you see a man in a turban. Dont get me wrong, the bombings concern and interest me, but i can also load a website, turn on the tv or radio without being smothered by people telling me why Britain is so morally right and these terrorists are morally wrong, and how its time to unite and celebrate our freedom and liberty. We're discussing with the Islamic leaders in Britain how to deal with it, and theres a sense of empathy with Islamic (or frankly, just asian looking) Britons who are going to get a hard time of things in the coming months which you just didnt get from America. Im not making any real point here, just a few observations.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 14:59   #11
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Re: Time to rethink?

no matter how many threads you decide to make on the topic, or how many inflamatory posts you type, you can not change the fact that nothing has changed in Britain.

I don't know why the latest phase of your mental breakdown has become fixated on Britain, but we've had terrorist attacks for an awfully long time dear and nothing of our national psyche changed then, nor will it change now.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 16:54   #12
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Re: Time to rethink?

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
I don't know why the latest phase of your mental breakdown has become fixated on Britain...
Probably because he is nearing a thousand posts on GD. Just a guess, though. :eek:
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 17:15   #13
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Re: Time to rethink?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
A certain someone having been shot five times. FIVE TIMES. I have fired semi-automatic hand guns (if that's what was used - an automatic rifle you wouldn't have been able to count the shots so easily) - five times is not just a calculated professional way to bring down a fugitive, at least it doesn't seem that way to most people who aren't getting emotionally defensive about it.
If they shout "armed police, stop!" multiple times, as they're required to do by law, and a man who's just exited a house being watched under suspicion of housing terrorists runs towards a train with wires coming out from underneath a bulky coat (worn in summer nonetheless, slightly out of seaon), I'd prefer they shot him rather than ran the risk of allowing him to detonate another bomb.

If they're shooting him, and he could have volatile explosive material strapped to his body, I'd prefer they shot him in the face rather than do his job for him.

If they're going to shoot him in the face, you're going to kill him. What difference does 5 shots make over 1 shot, rather than making it more certain you are performing the task you set out to do? Killing someone with one bullet or 5 doesn't really seem that different to me.

I sincerely doubt anyone completely innocent would run from armed police shouting repeatedly at him with weapons drawn. Unless they had a death wish, and in which case, wish granted.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 17:28   #14
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Re: Time to rethink?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supernova9
Unless they had a death wish, and in which case, wish granted.
If he was a Muslim, then he's in heaven now having sex with 72 Virginians. If he was not a Muslim, maybe he should have stopped running. Running is supposed to be good for your health. In this case it was not. If he was listening to his iPod, maybe he should have been paying more attention to his surroundings. I mean, he could have been hit by a bus or something.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 17:28   #15
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Re: Time to rethink?

If you somehow think that the Palestinians have beaten Israel you are quite mistaken. Current plans will have the Palestinians cut off into 3 separate groups and leave at least 3000 (I'm gonig from memory so I could be wrong here) cut off by the wall. What this move is I'm not really sure but I would imagine it is more of a move to try to improve it's international image rather than cowering at the feet of the mighty Palestinians.

In regards to the guy who was shot five times. We do not know all the facts. Even if the man was innocent (which I think is highly unlikely) and the cop(s) who shot him 5 times were racists looking for revenge it is still a totally different reaction and an isolated incident. Even though the London bombings were not an isolated incident and there is still the potential for more we haven't started a war over this.

When the country was being bombed by the IRA we didn't go in and bomb Ireland. So if you are saying that this particular event is representitive of all of Britain you are wrong. If you are trying to imply that Britain is in some way reacting in a similar manner to the USA after 9/11 then you are very wrong.

If you are saying that the role of 9/11 was to make the USA invade Afghanistan and Iraq then I think you are seriously deluded. It is possible that the attacks were meant to provoke the USA into making a relalatory strike but I don't think they would have expected anything on this scale.

You say that you are likely to be shot if you are running and Asian. How can you possibly back that nonsense up? One person, who was being tracked by police was shot dead in unclear conditions.

I wouldn't say that Britain has really changed at all. there is going to be a heightened level of awareness and nervousness amongst some people, but this is to be expected after a number of attacks. I would also expect this to fall back to normal levels in the not too distant future (if the bombings stop).
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 17:32   #16
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Re: Time to rethink?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supernova9
If they're going to shoot him in the face, you're going to kill him. What difference does 5 shots make over 1 shot, rather than making it more certain you are performing the task you set out to do? Killing someone with one bullet or 5 doesn't really seem that different to me.
I'm not a weapons expert but would it be possible to shoot him in the face 5 times at close range?

Would there be enough of his head left after the first few?

I've not heard any mention of him being shot in the head, but maybe I've overlooked this.

I assumed that they shot him 5 times in the chest, in which case if he had been wearing a bomb belt it woud have exploded.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 17:36   #17
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Re: Time to rethink?

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I'm not a weapons expert but would it be possible to shoot him in the face 5 times at close range?
low velocity bullets to avoid civilian injury.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 17:37   #18
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Re: Time to rethink?

Most cop bullets are turned out of nylon bar stock. they make a huge wound cavity but wont exit at all.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 17:42   #19
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Re: Time to rethink?

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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 17:46   #20
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Re: Time to rethink?

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he gave up on brazilian women.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 19:19   #21
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Re: Time to rethink?

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Originally Posted by All Systems Go
In regards to the guy who was shot five times. We do not know all the facts. Even if the man was innocent (which I think is highly unlikely)...
Turns out he is...
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 19:31   #22
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Re: Time to rethink?

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Originally Posted by Deffeh
Part of the difference is how we've dealt with it. Sure, theres always been racial tension in Britain, sure its heightened. But for the most part we're all going on with our dailly lives and not buying in political/emotional crap, hanging flags out our windows, crossing the street if you see a man in a turban. Dont get me wrong, the bombings concern and interest me, but i can also load a website, turn on the tv or radio without being smothered by people telling me why Britain is so morally right and these terrorists are morally wrong, and how its time to unite and celebrate our freedom and liberty. We're discussing with the Islamic leaders in Britain how to deal with it, and theres a sense of empathy with Islamic (or frankly, just asian looking) Britons who are going to get a hard time of things in the coming months which you just didnt get from America. Im not making any real point here, just a few observations.
The london bombings were hardly comparable in scale to 9/11 (which incidentally caused several changes to British law, none of them especially pleasant). Yesterday, the most popular newspaper in Britain wrote on its opinion page that harsh new laws were needed to combat the terrorist threat, and included the following gem; "MPs should also heap pressure on Mr Blair to announce that he will ditch the Human Rights Act and the UN Asylum Convention. These ridiculous statutes have shackled and hindered the fight against extremism for too long. ". Derogatory phrases like 'the civil liberties brigade' are becoming increasingly common in popular discourse. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see what happens, but I doubt its going to be particularly praiseworthy. If the london bombings had been comparable to 9/11, I assume it would be a lot worse.

The British 'stiff upper lip' attitude is largely a cultural myth - it has very little bearing on the actual responses to these kind of events.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 19:34   #23
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Re: Time to rethink?

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Originally Posted by s|k
We still don't know why he was shot though.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 19:39   #24
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Re: Time to rethink?

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Originally Posted by _Kila_
eyewitnesses said that the dude fell and the police officers stood over him and fired 5 shots at him... would take a pretty crap police officer to miss from point blank range
If you have reason to believe someone is a suicide bomber, leaving them prone after shooting them would be incredibly dangerous. The point is to stop them activating whatever they are carrying, which isnt going to be achieved by a single shot in the back. I suppose they could have clubbed him over the head with the gun barrel instead, but they probably thought that killing him was a lesser risk.

The only issue here is whether the police had good reason to believe this person was a suicide bomber. If so, then their actions were commendable. If not, then those responsible for the incident need to be charged.


edit: 'those responsible' doesnt necessarily mean those that actually shot him.

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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 19:42   #25
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Re: Time to rethink?

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
The British 'stiff upper lip' attitude is largely a cultural myth - it has very little bearing on the actual responses to these kind of events.

I agree.


All this crap about the 'blitz spirit' is just...crap. I don't want to take a chance of being blown up, noone sane does. I have to go out to earn a living and i have to use the underground because transporters don't exist. Whats really going through everyones head is

'theres a remote possibility of me being blown up if i decide to go to work, theres a real possibility of me being fired if i don't'

Im not sure who the people who bang on about how much better we are at dealing with this than any 'other people' are trying to kid. I have to earn my bread. Thats what drives me, ****ing capitalism not bullshit nationalism.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 19:46   #26
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Re: Time to rethink?

On a sidenote, it does seem like cold blooded murder to me. I cant understand why the police would follow him to the tube station, and then let him enter it, without stopping him beforehand? What exactly were they expecting to happen? If they believed he was carrying a bomb, why not confront him before he entered the station? What possible justificaiton is there for allowing someone you think is carrying a bomb to walk into a crowded tube station in front of your eyes? Were they thinking this was like a drugs bust where you have to wait until the last minute to see the dealer in the process of selling his stash? And given that he wasnt actually carrying anything (apparently), what precise reason did they have to believe he was, other than that they found his address in the possessions of a bomber? Were there any reasons whatsoever to believe this person had links to terrorism?

I hope more facts will come out later because the story so far makes no sense ; I'd like to think that nothing will be supressed.

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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 19:48   #27
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Re: Time to rethink?

Not that I experienced it but I also think that the 'Blitz Spirit' during the Blitz was a myth. then, like now people have to get on with their lives. You can talk about how great people were with dealing ith it but they didn't exactly have any choice. I would bet that if the coud have afforded it, most people would have left the country.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 19:58   #28
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Re: Time to rethink?

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
The British 'stiff upper lip' attitude is largely a cultural myth - it has very little bearing on the actual responses to these kind of events.
Perhaps, although the vast majority of people I've encountered (and I'm not just talking about young "liberal" people) are fairly unmoved by all of this. Especially with regards the recent events (i.e. the Oval/Warrent Street "bombings"), most people found it quite funny.

Sure, the newspapers are going to be calling for fascism - that's what they're there for. I also wouldn't call them particularly in touch (or at least, not in touch with people who live in London - they might represent the home counties quite well, I'm not sure).

In Britain after Diana died you had media nonsense for at least a week where no sane words could be heard. But only 1/2 days later in comedy clubs there were jokes about it (and at her expense). These jokes were not heard on TV/radio and any foriegn witnesses would genuinely think that "the country was in mourning". I'm sure the same could be said of America. I'm sure plenty of people (even in NY) shrugged off 9/11 to an extent, but they're not the voices we get to hear about.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 20:14   #29
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Re: Time to rethink?

This fellow who got shot 5 time by the police because they _tought_ he were a terrorist, is confirmed NOT to be linked to the terrorism. Congrats to the London police, you're now murderers.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 20:15   #30
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Re: Time to rethink?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Perhaps, although the vast majority of people I've encountered (and I'm not just talking about young "liberal" people) are fairly unmoved by all of this. Especially with regards the recent events (i.e. the Oval/Warrent Street "bombings"), most people found it quite funny.
I'm more concerned with what people do, than with what they say or claim to believe. There's no point stating that youre unphased by a bombing if youre one of the people cheering on governmental responses aimed at curbing civil liberties. Being unmoved isnt just about cracking a few jokes down the pub - its also about the responses you are willing to tolerate and sanction in a wider context.

Quote:
Sure, the newspapers are going to be calling for fascism - that's what they're there for. I also wouldn't call them particularly in touch (or at least, not in touch with people who live in London - they might represent the home counties quite well, I'm not sure).
And yet people continue to buy these papers. If a tabloid ran a story about why new laws should be passed requiring black people to be put in concentration camps, there would be a national outcry and boycott. But there is no real opposition to media claims that radical new 'anti-terrorist' measures are needed, and that human rights are irrelevant, because as far as I can tell most people either a) agree, or b) dont have any strong beliefs either way.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 20:19   #31
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Re: Time to rethink?

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Originally Posted by Nadar
This fellow who got shot 5 time by the police because they _tought_ he were a terrorist, is confirmed NOT to be linked to the terrorism. Congrats to the London police, you're now murderers.
Yes. Every single one of them. Also the fire department, doctors, lawyers and bus drivers as well. I hope the International Criminal Court decides to take immediate action by arresting all of the inhabitants of England, Wales, Scottland and Northern Ireland and transporting them to the Hague to stand trial. If not, then NATO should get involved. By God, this will not stand!
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 20:30   #32
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Re: Time to rethink?

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Originally Posted by Nadar
This fellow who got shot 5 time by the police because they _tought_ he were a terrorist, is confirmed NOT to be linked to the terrorism. Congrats to the London police, you're now murderers.
I dont think this follows - mistakes can happen, even mistakes which result in innocents being killed. I dont think the man's guilt is the most important factor here - I'm more concerned with whether the police had good reason to believe he was guilty. If all available evidence made it reasonable to assume this man was a bomber, then I dont think the police are murders - just people who made a tragic mistake for which they cant be held responsible. People arent omniscient, and all that you can ask is that they make the correct decisions based on the knowledge which is actually available to them.

Before you could say the police were murders, you'd have to show that the situation was mishandled. As I said before, it certainly does look that way, but actually establishing this requires more than just showing the man was innocent.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 20:40   #33
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Re: Time to rethink?

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Originally Posted by Texan
Yes. Every single one of them. Also the fire department, doctors, lawyers and bus drivers as well. I hope the International Criminal Court decides to take immediate action by arresting all of the inhabitants of England, Wales, Scottland and Northern Ireland and transporting them to the Hague to stand trial. If not, then NATO should get involved. By God, this will not stand!

Better take the French and Germans in as well, just to be certain, eh
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 20:58   #34
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Re: Time to rethink?

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Originally Posted by Sarina_Joy
Better take the French and Germans in as well, just to be certain, eh
And the Dutch people, too.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 20:59   #35
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Re: Time to rethink?

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
I'm more concerned with whether the police had good reason to believe he was guilty.
They did, he was an asian running through the tube. </sarcasm>

Muslims should always make sure they don't enter and exit houses under surveillance and then run through a crowded area. </more sarcasm>
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 21:23   #36
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Re: Time to rethink?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
They did, he was an asian running through the tube. </sarcasm>

Muslims should always make sure they don't enter and exit houses under surveillance and then run through a crowded area. </more sarcasm>
He was Brazilian.

...

OMG...he was Muslim.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 21:45   #37
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Re: Time to rethink?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
He was Brazilian.

...

OMG...he was Muslim.
zomg
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 01:39   #38
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Re: Time to rethink?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
Yes. Every single one of them. Also the fire department, doctors, lawyers and bus drivers as well. I hope the International Criminal Court decides to take immediate action by arresting all of the inhabitants of England, Wales, Scottland and Northern Ireland and transporting them to the Hague to stand trial. If not, then NATO should get involved. By God, this will not stand!
you mock because your lot derogated from justice?
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 11:27   #39
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Re: Time to rethink?

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
you mock because your lot derogated from justice?
I'm not really sure why the U.S. government chose to do that, but it might have had something to do with people screaming that Clinton, Kissinger and Rumsfeld should be the first tried under the ICC.
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 11:32   #40
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Re: Time to rethink?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
I'm not really sure why the U.S. government chose to do that, but it might have had something to do with people screaming that Clinton, Kissinger and Rumsfeld should be the first tried under the ICC.
Due process of law? In America? With my reputation? Has no-one thought of the consequences?
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 12:18   #41
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Re: Time to rethink?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I'm more concerned with what people do, than with what they say or claim to believe. There's no point stating that youre unphased by a bombing if youre one of the people cheering on governmental responses aimed at curbing civil liberties. Being unmoved isnt just about cracking a few jokes down the pub - its also about the responses you are willing to tolerate and sanction in a wider context.
But that's what I'm talking about - I don't think these people are the ones "cheering on" the government in any sense.
Quote:
And yet people continue to buy these papers.
Only a minority of people buy a newspaper though, and I'm not convinced it's a representative sample. The Daily Mail is quite a high selling newspaper for instance, yet you're still talking about a relatively small group. If you broke it down by region / age / ethnicity / class then it'd be even more stark. Even if we presume that 100% of people who buy the Daily Mail support the editorial line (as opposed to not giving a shit in general and buying the newspaper because they like the comics/cooking section/crossword/tits/etc) then that's still less then 1 in 25 people in the UK. If you're talking about Londoner's between 16 and 35 I'd be surprised if the Daily Mail even hit 1 in 100.
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 14:25   #42
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Re: Time to rethink?

What i don't seem to understand is that the government seems to want to legislate against the preparation of terrorism, when they have such a provision under the Terrorism Act anyway. By all means, they should make phone tap evidence available in terrorist cases for scrutiny, simply because of the security concerns we have, it seems prudent to do so. Aside from that we don't need any 'radical' anti-terror measures, they are already here.

The only way we can do better is to ensure better physical security that is reasonably practical and cost-effective. Simply re-legislating for the sake of it to show that someone is doing something about it makes little to no sense.
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 16:12   #43
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Re: Time to rethink?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I dont think this follows - mistakes can happen, even mistakes which result in innocents being killed. I dont think the man's guilt is the most important factor here - I'm more concerned with whether the police had good reason to believe he was guilty. If all available evidence made it reasonable to assume this man was a bomber, then I dont think the police are murders - just people who made a tragic mistake for which they cant be held responsible. People arent omniscient, and all that you can ask is that they make the correct decisions based on the knowledge which is actually available to them.

Before you could say the police were murders, you'd have to show that the situation was mishandled. As I said before, it certainly does look that way, but actually establishing this requires more than just showing the man was innocent.
But is it worth sacrificing even one innocent life to possibly save others? Maybe the policeofficers that followed him acted on their information (There are still a lot of unaswered questions, like the ones you asked before), but what about the police officers that gathered that intel? Should they be punished? I disagree, the fact that he is innocent is enough to say it's mishandled. Maybe not the shooters, but somewhere somebody did something that made a innocent dead. If the people handling these types of cases can't stop these types of mistakes, then other people should handle these situations.

I strongly think that any forms of action to stop something, no matter what it is, is not worth it if innocents are killed/imprisoned. I would rather live in fear in a free society then comfort in a shoot-before-thinking society. I can accept that people are unjustly stopped, detained and even imprisoned (for a few hours anyway) to stop massive killings of innocents, but to KILL a innocent person is too extreme.
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 16:57   #44
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Re: Time to rethink?

This shooting on the tube is simply a case of self defence and whether that self defence was warranted or excessive from the perspective of the person who shot the guy.

An innocent may have died, this is regrettable - but this is no different to a police officer shooting someone he believes to be a dangerous armed criminal.
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 17:36   #45
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Re: Time to rethink?

An English guy who works at Alexander's of London here in Hanau said Jean Charles de Menezes was an illegal alien and the reason he ran was because he did not want to be deported. I did a quick search of the news and could not verify that information. Anyone on here seen something indicating he was in Britain illegaly? I found one site that said he was working in London legally, but the site seems to be an anti-Semitic propaganda site. At least they blamed Israel for the guy's death.
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 17:51   #46
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Re: Time to rethink?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
An English guy who works at Alexander's of London here in Hanau said Jean Charles de Menezes was an illegal alien and the reason he ran was because he did not want to be deported. I did a quick search of the news and could not verify that information. Anyone on here seen something indicating he was in Britain illegaly? I found one site that said he was working in London legally, but the site seems to be an anti-Semitic propaganda site. At least they blamed Israel for the guy's death.
bbc says he was here legally, and probably ran because he'd grown up in a sao paulo slum.
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 17:59   #47
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Re: Time to rethink?

Knowing what the poilce did at the time or thought they knew, if they had held back and the suspect had jumped onto the train and blew the shit out of it, do you suppose there would have been any criticisim? Do you think it would have been justified?
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 18:04   #48
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Re: Time to rethink?

He was legal.
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 18:08   #49
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Re: Time to rethink?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Knowing what the poilce did at the time or thought they knew, if they had held back and the suspect had jumped onto the train and blew the shit out of it, do you suppose there would have been any criticisim? Do you think it would have been justified?


The point of concern was that he already was on the train, he either tripped or was pushed (or a combination of the two) on to the floor of the train having run. Whilst on the floor and with the police grappling (or by other accounts with the police still at the door) they shot him 5 times.
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 18:39   #50
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Re: Time to rethink?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
bbc says he was here legally, and probably ran because he'd grown up in a sao paulo slum.


Where they breed 'em stupid?!
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