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Unread 5 Jun 2005, 21:50   #1
skiddy
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Tomorrow

As you, of course, will all know. Tomorrow is D-Day, the 61st anniversary.

I don't expect many posts in this thread, but use it if you will to remember those who paid the ultimate price for our freedom.

Let us remember those who died. French, German, American, British, Canadian and others attached to the Allied forces.

They all played a part in the current world we live in.

Never forget*.



*The irony is, I'm posting this now as I've got an exceptionally busy day tomorrow and I'll forget to post this
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Unread 5 Jun 2005, 21:58   #2
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Re: Tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiddy
French, German, American, British, Canadian and others attached to the Allied forces.
What are you talking about?

Everyone knows America won the war on their own!



...Sorry. I will remember them.
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Unread 5 Jun 2005, 21:58   #3
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Re: Tomorrow

"if final victory rewards our toils they shall share the gains, aye, and freedom shall be restored to all.

We abate nothing of our just demands; not one jot or tittle do we recede. Czechs, Poles, Norwegians, Dutch, Belgians have joined their causes to our own. All these shall be restored.

What General Weygand called the Battle of France is over. I expect that the Battle of Britain is about to begin. Upon this battle depends the survival of Christian civilization.

Upon it depends our own British life, and the long continuity of our institutions and our Empire. The whole fury and might of the enemy must very soon be turned on us. Hitler knows that he will have to break us in this Island or lose the war.

If we can stand up to him, all Europe may be free and the life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands. But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science.

Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, "This was their finest hour."
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Unread 5 Jun 2005, 22:03   #4
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Re: Tomorrow

25 million dead from the Soviet Union, an equal or larger number grievouslsly wounded and/ or made disabled.

11 million from China

7 million from Poland

Yugoslavia and Japan about 2 million each.

Remember them aswell...
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Unread 5 Jun 2005, 22:08   #5
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Re: Tomorrow

Who's free again?

Didn't the Russians help during the 2nd world war?

Will there also be threads recalling anniversaries of brave British and "allied" soldiers dying whilst slaughtering civilians throughout the world over the last hundred years?

I ask merely for information.
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Unread 5 Jun 2005, 22:11   #6
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Re: Tomorrow

I no way did my post deserve neg. rep.

Many countries lost many of their best men during WW2, to discount the Soviet Union's massive losses is unhistorical in the extreme.
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Unread 5 Jun 2005, 22:14   #7
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Re: Tomorrow

We all accept that there were huge losses for the Soviet Union, for the Polish, for the Chinese, for the Japanese during the Second World War, however - it is June 6th tomorrow - which is D-Day. This thread remembers those who stormed the beaches and lost their lives along a small portion of the French coastline.

Remember them if you will. Complain about the lack of coverage for other events in WW2 somewhere else.

edit - although it is unimportant, I'd like to add that I did not give you neg-rep for that. This thread should not be about personal opinon, but about giving thanks.
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Unread 5 Jun 2005, 22:34   #8
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Re: Tomorrow

"They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them."
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Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them.
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Unread 5 Jun 2005, 22:37   #9
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Re: Tomorrow

Remember? I've already forgotten! I think it'd be more prudent to remember the wars we're fighting now and the liberties that are being lost to goverments scaryfied by paedophilic islamic militants behind every bush than something that ended decades before i was even born.

Those men that died 61 years ago died for their own freedoms and the political aspirations of their leaders. If things had been different, they'd have been different and i wouldn't have been here.

Instead i offer this, many of us here were born in '79 - '80 or thereabouts. Well 100 years before we entered this fairly unimpressive existence another man was born (14th March 1879 to be precise) ourlives are, well, almost in sync. At about this point in his life 100 years ago the gentleman in question published four extraordinary and brillant papers that changed the world more than any man with a rifle ever could. If you want to pay tribute to something let it be him. Also note how we're wasting away when at the same point he was making history
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Unread 5 Jun 2005, 22:42   #10
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Re: Tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
Remember? I've already forgotten! I think it'd be more prudent to remember the wars we're fighting now and the liberties that are being lost to goverments scaryfied by paedophilic islamic militants behind every bush than something that ended decades before i was even born.

Those men that died 61 years ago died for their own freedoms and the political aspirations of their leaders. If things had been different, they'd have been different and i wouldn't have been here.

Instead i offer this, many of us here were born in '79 - '80 or thereabouts. Well 100 years before we entered this fairly unimpressive existence another man was born (14th March 1879 to be precise) ourlives are, well, almost in sync. At about this point in his life 100 years ago the gentleman in question published four extraordinary and brillant papers that changed the world more than any man with a rifle ever could. If you want to pay tribute to something let it be him. Also note how we're wasting away when at the same point he was making history
The nice man with the funny hair?
Albert, I think it was.
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Unread 5 Jun 2005, 22:44   #11
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Re: Tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
Remember? I've already forgotten! I think it'd be more prudent to remember the wars we're fighting now and the liberties that are being lost to goverments scaryfied by paedophilic islamic militants behind every bush than something that ended decades before i was even born.

Those men that died 61 years ago died for their own freedoms and the political aspirations of their leaders. If things had been different, they'd have been different and i wouldn't have been here.

Instead i offer this, many of us here were born in '79 - '80 or thereabouts. Well 100 years before we entered this fairly unimpressive existence another man was born (14th March 1879 to be precise) ourlives are, well, almost in sync. At about this point in his life 100 years ago the gentleman in question published four extraordinary and brillant papers that changed the world more than any man with a rifle ever could. If you want to pay tribute to something let it be him. Also note how we're wasting away when at the same point he was making history
If it wasn't for those men who died you'd probably never have even heard of Einstein.
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Unread 5 Jun 2005, 23:02   #12
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Re: Tomorrow

Saving Private Ryan was a pretty wikkid film.
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Unread 5 Jun 2005, 23:06   #13
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Re: Tomorrow

Posting in approval of remembering.
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Unread 5 Jun 2005, 23:22   #14
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Exclamation Re: Tomorrow

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Unread 5 Jun 2005, 23:25   #15
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Re: Tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weeks
Posting in approval of remembering.
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Unread 5 Jun 2005, 23:29   #16
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Re: Tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
If it wasn't for those men who died you'd probably never have even heard of Einstein.

If things had been different, they'd have been different and i wouldn't have been here.

If it hadn't have been for the english treating the irish like shit all those years ago the idea of irish republicanism wouldn't have come about and the lives of your great great grand pappys, great grand pappys, grand pappys pappys, pappys and mummys wouldn't have been what they were, with the distinct possibility that you wouldn't be here now.

All praise those english!

Im not denying that on comparison the allies of WWII were 'better' than the axis powers. But i don't understand why i should 'honour' them particularly on a non-intuitive aniversary. They fought for their own freedom. I don't get this generational debt crap, you do something because it effects you not all your future generations. If i have to remember something or someone id rather it'd be for an idea.
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Unread 5 Jun 2005, 23:37   #17
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Re: Tomorrow

I honour people who fight for their own freedom.
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Unread 5 Jun 2005, 23:37   #18
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Exclamation Re: Tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
They fought for their own freedom.
I don't see how, if you're fighting for the ultimate victory of a set of political principles, then you are not, by definition, fighting for their general perpetuation down the generations.

In any case, whatever their specific motivations, their sacrifices made our little corner of the world an infinitely better place, and they sustained the rights and lifestyles we enjoy today through that effort. You argument is, at best, extremely churlish.
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Unread 5 Jun 2005, 23:41   #19
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Re: Tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I honour people who fight for their own freedom.
only because they were forced
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Unread 5 Jun 2005, 23:48   #20
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Exclamation Re: Tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by LHC
only because they were forced
I'm sure very few people go to war entirely willingly, especially not in particularly vicious wars such as WWII. But it would be retarded to argue that the only thing that drove those men onwards was the threat of sanction.
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Unread 5 Jun 2005, 23:52   #21
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Re: Tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by LHC
only because they were forced
I severely doubt every single one of them did not wish to fight.
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Unread 5 Jun 2005, 23:56   #22
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Re: Tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
I don't see how, if you're fighting for the ultimate victory of a set of political principles, then you are not, by definition, fighting for their general perpetuation down the generations.

In any case, whatever their specific motivations, their sacrifices made our little corner of the world an infinitely better place, and they sustained the rights and lifestyles we enjoy today through that effort. You argument is, at best, extremely churlish.
If they volunteered to join the army id agree, if they were conscripted it becomes unclear.

Im not being churlish, or my intention wasn't to be. But i stand by what ive said. I don't honour specific moments in 2000 years of british history, i don't honour nelson's victory, neither do i stand for a moment in dishonour at the actions comitted by britain in those 2000 years. I just accept that it was what it was. I've already said i don't deny the allies were 'better' than the axis powers and to whatever degree im 'happy' they won.

My problem with honouring them, apart from the date being non-intuitive, is i don't see why one moment should be picked out, when britain had a distinct moral superiority over its foes, and held up as an example of all time. I take all history as it occured. Do the men who fought in WWII dishonour the memories of their fathers who set the seeds for WWII by fighting in WWI?

They did what they had to do to get along with their lifes, like every generation before and since. I accept that, and i accept that those who come after me owe me nothing.
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Unread 5 Jun 2005, 23:59   #23
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Re: Tomorrow

In this thread Nusselt launches a gallant effort to deprive MrL of his "Most Pedantic Man On the Internet" title. Will he succeed in his daring endeavour? Time vill tell, sooner or later time vill tell.








BZZZZZZT.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 00:01   #24
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Re: Tomorrow

Thats a great counter-argument.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 00:02   #25
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Re: Tomorrow

So's your face.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 00:07   #26
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Exclamation Re: Tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
If they volunteered to join the army id agree, if they were conscripted it becomes unclear.
This only applies to the second point of my post. And in any case, I've already dealt with the conscription bit in the follow up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
i don't honour nelson's victory,
Well, I don't honour Nelson's victory, either. Nelson's victory was a victory in a war between rival imperialisms with very little to distinguish between them, other than one had rather more explicit asiprations to hegemony than the other did.

But I don't see how the same point applies to WWII. By even the most basic criteria, western liberal democracy was preferable in almost every way to Nazism. You seem to be edging towards some kind of 'I don't have any moral opinions aren't I cute?' line of reasoning.

I remember the sacrifices of these men because they assisted in saving countless people from living under the sway of a genocidal ideological fantasy which claimed millions in the scope of a few years, and would have probably gone on to claim hundreds of millions more had it not been cut off when it was.

It's not a particularly hard thing to do. I suggest you do likewise.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 00:32   #27
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Re: Tomorrow

I don't remember it because I'm too young.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 00:34   #28
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Re: Tomorrow

Right well im assuming we're ignoring comrade stalin, the millions who 'voluntered' to fight for his worthy cause to the death (with certain incentives) and the clear benefit he brought, both to the land his armies happened to be camped in when the evil nazis were obliterated and the land he happened to be ruiling before hand. Honouring liberal western demoracy it is.

I don't see the point in honouring non-intuitive aniversaries.

I don't see the point in remembering or keeping foremost in our minds a point in time when britain had a clear moral superiority over its enemies.

I accept history as it occured and choose to view it as a complex tapestry and most importantly a complex lesson.

I don't dishonour moments in Britain's past when its moral compass was a more...uncertain.

That doesn't mean i ignore what happened, but i believe i am more consistant with my treatment of all those times than people who pick and choose history as it suits them. It is not a case of having no moral opinions, it is in fact the very opposite.

I accept that those who come after me owe me nothing.

But if honour a time i must, and if as stated its not a particularly hard thing to do, ill choose 172 years since the time of wilberforce and his achievments.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 00:36   #29
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Re: Tomorrow

Remembering past wars and those who served is more about remembering that there were men & women willing to make the sacrafice for thier freedom & those of their fellow countrymen. And yes that applies to both sides.

You have to remember that these were mainly young, idealistic men who no matter which side they were on endured the untold horrors that war involves.

It's not about glorifying war - but glorifying the spirit of those that did what they needed to do - no matter the cost.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 00:40   #30
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Exclamation Re: Tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
Right well im assuming we're ignoring comrade stalin, the millions who 'voluntered' to fight for his worthy cause to the death (with certain incentives) and the clear benefit he brought, both to the land his armies happened to be camped in when the evil nazis were obliterated and the land he happened to be ruiling before hand. Honouring liberal western demoracy it is.
What the **** has Stalin got to do with the Normandy landings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
I accept history as it occured
If you are not making a moral judgement about history, (Which you are not.) then there is no point in paying any attention to history. History should be about learning from error and achievement so we can better ourselves from that knowledge, and celebrating where applicable, and condemning where appropriate, and remembering in both cases. Moral judgement is at the very centre of this.

Why you make this idiotic artifical dichotomy between scientific achievement on the one hand and political achievement on the other is quite beyond me.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 00:47   #31
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Re: Tomorrow

Hear, hear (skiddy).
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 01:14   #32
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Re: Tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
What the **** has Stalin got to do with the Normandy landings?
Since the thread specifically mentioned it (id missed it beforehand) ill accept not a lot. The thread was going along the lines of western liberal demoracy being preferable to nazism, something id agree with. I only wanted to point out that western liberal demoracy chose to side with the lesser of two evils at a certain point in history, because it suited them, and to ignore the implications that would have, because it suited them. I was trying to introduce a shade of grey to honouring a moral situation seemingly given as black and white.

But as you've pointed out it has nothing to do with the normandy landings, the thread was specifically about them and i seem to have missed skiddy's second post. Therefore although it severely limits the thread, you are right.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
If you are not making a moral judgement about history, (Which you are not.) then there is no point in paying any attention to history. History should be about learning from error and achievement so we can better ourselves from that knowledge, and celebrating where applicable, and condemning where appropriate, and remembering in both cases. Moral judgement is at the very centre of this.
Thats very unfair, you've taken one specific part of one sentence of my post and quoted it completely out of context. In the preceeding sentence and in prior posts id stated that Britain had a moral superiority over the Nazis. But i didn't and don't see the point in picking it as a moment to be celebrated.

I accept Britain's history good and bad as it occured. I make moral judgements on the entire 2000+ years of it and choose to learn from it. I simply don't see the point in picking the one moment when the moral superiority was clear, and holding it for all time. Just as i don't see the point in picking one moment when britain was in the wrong, and holding it up for all time.

In either case, and to reiterate once again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
That doesn't mean i ignore what happened, but i believe i am more consistant with my treatment of all those times than people who pick and choose history as it suits them. It is not a case of having no moral opinions, it is in fact the very opposite.
I have never and will never say that lessons and moral arguments from history should not be made, i do query the logic in holding one moment up (good or bad) as an eternal example and saying remember.

In anycase assuming people learn from their mistakes, it would make far more sense to me to actively remember the times when britain was wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Why you make this idiotic artifical dichotomy between scientific achievement on the one hand and political achievement on the other is quite beyond me.
I have?

I make a dichotomy between the achievements of man in terms of ideas and the achivements of man in terms of battles. I do so unashamedly.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 07:30   #33
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Re: Tomorrow

Oh **** off Nusselt.

The aim of this thread was not to argue about some petty details.

Just shut up for 2 minutes today* and think of the people that died. OK?








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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 09:15   #34
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Re: Tomorrow

skiddy forgot the jews.

haha
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 09:22   #35
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Re: Tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoeN
skiddy forgot the jews.

haha
Skiddy forgot Poland.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 10:06   #36
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Re: Tomorrow

I'll smoke a churchill today for the cause.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 17:27   #37
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Re: Tomorrow

just out of curiosity, why do people think that brittish history began with the romans? There was a culture (ie bronse age etc) for around 3k years BC, and before that we had us a stone age, so there's at least 5000 years of british history, just because it wasn't called britan or all under one ruler doesn't mean it didn't happen.

also posting to say I havn't forgotten the sacrifice the brave men and women made for our freedom.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 17:29   #38
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Re: Tomorrow

I doubt they were thinking of you or I when they did it.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 17:43   #39
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Re: Tomorrow

Just honour the chaps who had the nuts to run onto a beach (a french beach no less) and get shot at ffs.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 17:51   #40
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Re: Tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoeN
skiddy forgot the jews.

haha
No, I didn't mention them as they Jewistan is not a country who lost people. It's a religion. Many people of the Jewish faith died, you can see their resting place marked with a star as opposed to a cross in the American Cemetary at Omaha Beach.

I didn't mention Poland as the Polish troops who fought we're attached to the armies of the USA, Britain and Canada - which isn't a difficult deduction as the only Armed Forces who took part were German, American, British and Canadian. Sure, their forces were supplemented by other armed forces, but history records each of the five beaches as being taken by either American, Canadian or British.

I win.

edit - just before someone comes back with "Well the Polish defended Poland with their army..."

a - No they didn't.
b - This thread is limited in it's entirety to June 6th 1944, not the entire second world war. If you want to start a thread remembering the deaths of those five or six French soldiers who died when they were trampled by their own retreating army, feel free, but **** off and do it elsewhere.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 17:53   #41
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Exclamation Re: Tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
I only wanted to point out that western liberal demoracy chose to side with the lesser of two evils at a certain point in history, because it suited them, and to ignore the implications that would have, because it suited them.
You say "because it suited them" as if it was some kind of calculated political judgement, instead of sheer force of circumstance, as it was. Do you think it "suited" Churchill to have Eastern Europe under the sway of Stalin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
Thats very unfair, you've taken one specific part of one sentence of my post and quoted it completely out of context.
All you've said so far to balance your argument is a single sentence to the effect that the allies were "better" than the Axis. All the rest has been generally nebulous statements about 'accepting the whole of history.'

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Originally Posted by Nusselt
But i didn't and don't see the point in picking it as a moment to be celebrated.
But you go on to celebrate specific scientific or cultural achievements? I don't see the difference.

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Originally Posted by Nusselt
I simply don't see the point in picking the one moment when the moral superiority was clear, and holding it for all time.
All that is required is a few moments reflection on the event, instead of uncharitable and priggish nonsense; that people died, and, as a result, you can now live as you do. As I said before, this is not a lot to ask.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
i do query the logic in holding one moment up (good or bad) as an eternal example and saying remember.
The Holocaust? I'd say that was a pretty good example of an incident that should be remembered for ever. In fact, the whole of World War II, both good and bad should be remembered, for the reasons I've already stated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
make a dichotomy between the achievements of man in terms of ideas and the achivements of man in terms of battles. I do so unashamedly.
People have had to fight and die in order to defend and extend freedom. There is nothing shameful about this. Indeed, sacrifices of this nature should be celebrated just as much as any cultural invention. Culture has only prospered as it has because of it.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 18:45   #42
Nusselt
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Re: Tomorrow

Well, this will almost certainly be my last posting in the thread (assuming nothing else 'new' is added), i don't like arguments where quotes are quoted and re-quoted and shuffled till all meaning is lost, it just reduces to a flame war. You have a core argument, you make it with definitive points, you move on.

I don't understand the need to commemorate non-intuitive or non-obvious anniversaries.

I don't believe in generational debt and i don't believe anyone in WWII died for me, but rather for themselves their families.

I don't believe in remembering seemingly arbitrary moments or battles in history.

I don't think history should be about commemorating in the sense of having a minutes silence, that to me anyway achieves little. Holding a minutes silence for the victims of the holocaust is a lot less important to me than understanding the events and the reasons for those events that led to it*. Remembering a particular battle in the american war of independence or of 1812 is less important than understanding the reasons that a unilateral declaration of indepence was made in the first place. Remembering that men killed each other is less important than why they did, and not just in loose terms of 'freedom' but the complex tapestry that existed at the time. Quite a few wars have been fought 'for freedom' without it meaning much.

Now some may well say 'have both!', but if events are to be remembered, officially with a moments silence id prefer it to be the mistakes that were made in our past, in our name, for us so we could benefit today.

I didn't mean to be uncharitable and priggish, this is the internet and specifically GD, it was simply a discussion. If i came across as such, i am sorry. I equally don't see the point in being emotional about it all. Ill have my own moments silence remembering the battle of stoney creek or something.

* the holocaust had nothing to do with d-day or our freedom
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 18:46   #43
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Re: Tomorrow

ITT Nusselt states he doesn't believe in heroes.

Goodbye Superman *sob*
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 18:57   #44
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Re: Tomorrow

i went to normandy last year for the 60th anniversary.

met some veterans and i was like :bow:
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 19:02   #45
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Re: Tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
i went to normandy last year for the 60th anniversary.

met some veterans and i was like :bow:
I was there for the 60th last year too, but in an official capacity.

We provided security for Chirac / The Queen / Blair etc.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 19:07   #46
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Re: Tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiddy
I didn't mention Poland as the Polish troops who fought we're attached to the armies of the USA, Britain and Canada - which isn't a difficult deduction as the only Armed Forces who took part were German, American, British and Canadian. Sure, their forces were supplemented by other armed forces, but history records each of the five beaches as being taken by either American, Canadian or British.
I was referring to George Bush's "You forgot Poland!" outburst, not saying you had actually forgotten it.
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He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 19:13   #47
Marilyn Manson
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Exclamation Re: Tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
I don't understand the need to commemorate non-intuitive or non-obvious anniversaries.
(Stop using 'non-intuitive' in every post. It's makes you sound like a mongchop.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
I don't believe in generational debt and i don't believe anyone in WWII died for me, but rather for themselves their families.
As I have already said about five times already, regardless of these men's intentions (And I personally consider your point laughable in so much as it assumes these men were not fighting on the basis of an assumed moral superiority.) they assisted in sustaining your way of life. Your totaly inability to freely admit this does you no favours.

Even so, your point is bizzare, since in an awful lot of cases, we are the families of the people who died.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
I don't think history should be about commemorating in the sense of having a minutes silence, that to me anyway achieves little.
Of course it doesn't 'achieve' anything you goit. What it does is to allow for a moments reflection, and it provides an opportunity for a person to give thanks to the sacrifices involves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
Holding a minutes silence for the victims of the holocaust is a lot less important to me than understanding the events and the reasons for those events that led to it*.
To me, they are equally important. I can't approach the event dispassionately. If you want to view all history through some kind of non-emotional lense, then feel free, but I think you're missing out on an awful lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
Remembering a particular battle in the american war of independence or of 1812 is less important than understanding the reasons that a unilateral declaration of indepence was made in the first place.
Eh? When have I argued that we should only focus on individual actions, or whatever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
Remembering that men killed each other is less important than why they did,
Okay. Can we agree that what they did was heroic by any normal definition? And can we agree that the cause of liberating western Europe from totalitarianism was a just cause?

So where's the dispute?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
* the holocaust had nothing to do with d-day or our freedom
You said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
i do query the logic in holding one moment up (good or bad) as an eternal example and saying remember.
Which is a general point regarding history. Hence my retort regarding the Holocaust.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 19:16   #48
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Re: Tomorrow

Right, the two of you.

Get the **** out of my thread.
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 19:17   #49
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Exclamation Re: Tomorrow

'Make me'
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Unread 6 Jun 2005, 19:23   #50
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Re: Tomorrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiddy
I was there for the 60th last year too, but in an official capacity.

We provided tea and biscuits for Chirac / The Queen / Blair etc.
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