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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 12:25   #101
Radical Edward
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I'm talking in a more general sense. In America for example on after the first London bombings they started random bag searches on the subway.

Now, is it right that they carry out random searches or should they impliment racial profiling and only search those who look like they may be a terrorist as they are statistically more likely to be a terrorist.

It then becomes a civil liberties issue. Should people who have no connection whatsoever to terrorists be treated as terrorists just because they have the same skin colour?
I see your point. but then what would be the use in searching white peoples' bags, since they aren't going to find anything there. If a certain group gets profiled, that is due to the fact that all the suicide bombers belong to that group. It certainly wouldn't bother me if I were part of a group under suspicion that the police searched me. If anything it would make me more confident that they are not wasting resources and are, as you say, statistically more likely to catch the people who are damaging my image.
The thing is, it is not just the police that racially profile, it is everyone else. if we could compile statistics on whose bags get stared at on the trains, nobody would stare at my bag or a japanese guys bag or whatever, but they will be staring at muslims' bags.
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Whether they said 'armed police, stop' or 'police, stop' would make a difference in his reaction.
true, which is why at this stage I am reserving my opinion as to whether they did the right thing or not.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 12:35   #102
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
I see your point. but then what would be the use in searching white peoples' bags, since they aren't going to find anything there. If a certain group gets profiled, that is due to the fact that all the suicide bombers belong to that group.

Don't you think that this would lead to greater levels of animosity and segregation of these communities and therefore increase the possibility of more attacks?

It certainly wouldn't bother me if I were part of a group under suspicion that the police searched me. If anything it would make me more confident that they are not wasting resources and are, as you say, statistically more likely to catch the people who are damaging my image.
If you're a Jew you shouldn't have a problem wearing the star of david round your neck.

I don't think it's as simple as saying 'I don't care if they searched white people' because it's not going to happen, being a majority white country. It also challenges innocent until proven guilty as well as the liklihood of non-white people being charged with drug offences and the such and in essence criminalises an entire group of people because of a violent minority.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 13:02   #103
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Edit: Apparently his UK visa had expiredand that is a posible reason why he run. It didn't say how long ago though. It woud also explain why he was acting 'suspiciously'.
the beeb said he was here legally.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 13:13   #104
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Re: London today

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713753.stm

Maybe they did before.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 13:17   #105
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
If you're a Jew you shouldn't have a problem wearing the star of david round your neck.

I don't think it's as simple as saying 'I don't care if they searched white people' because it's not going to happen, being a majority white country. It also challenges innocent until proven guilty as well as the liklihood of non-white people being charged with drug offences and the such and in essence criminalises an entire group of people because of a violent minority.
All that'll happen is that police will search random white people's bags anyway to make the stats look favourable.

Anyway, there are white Muslims.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 13:18   #106
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
In most civilised countries armed enforcers (be it police or military) are trained to identify a target as a threat before they shoot, I see no evidence of this in any of the reportings.


It'll come out in the investigation, but from 'lol reports lol' he was living at an address that was under surverlence, wearing a 'padded jacket' and ran towards a train fully of commuters. Under present circumstances practically every po-leace man in the country would consider him a threat.




I am shaken by the killing, apparently the man in question was an innocuous working class hombre
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 13:20   #107
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Re: London today

btw the most interesting thing here was said by dante, im wondering if 'can we check you bag?' will become a back door method to stop and search.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 13:28   #108
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
I am shaken by the killing, apparently the man in question was an innocuous working class hombre
He came from Tulse Hill which is about two minute walk from where myself, T&F and sbolly used to live. They're all thieves, whores, druggies and copyright infringers there. He probably had it coming to him.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 13:34   #109
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
If you're a Jew you shouldn't have a problem wearing the star of david round your neck.
of course, and if some jews start blowing themselves up in crowded places under a religious argument, then other jews should not be suprised if they get searched.
Quote:
I don't think it's as simple as saying 'I don't care if they searched white people' because it's not going to happen, being a majority white country.
as dante said, yes it will, but for statistical reasons only, because the police know full well that the odds of them finding a white suicide bomber are lower than (the already incredibly low) odds of finding an asian suicide bomber. Whites will still get searched "just to even the numbers"
Quote:
It also challenges innocent until proven guilty as well as the liklihood of non-white people being charged with drug offences and the such and in essence criminalises an entire group of people because of a violent minority.
I see no challenge to "innocent until proven guilty" - this is a preventative measure. there are a large number of these kinds of preventative measures in a number of fields, from medicine, where dialysis patients must be tested for HIV before being allowed dialysis, through to police background checks for a variety of jobs. It is unfortunate that certain groups will ultimately be investigated more thoroughly for this, but the fact of the matter is, that when you look at the 8 photos of suicide bombers in london, not one of them is a white guy. As I mentioned before, the muslims and asians will already be stared at far more than anyone else. why? because all the bombers were from those ethnic groups. Also the other boat full of asians at the whitewater rafting club will also be investigated. Do you think it is fair that more police time is put into investigating this group than is put into invesitigating all the white people who turned up that day or do you think it is unfair?

your issue regarding drugs and so on is an interesting one in that, since muslims might be searched more, more drugs will be found amongst muslims, regardless of whether more muslims carry drugs than other groups, but I think it is a bit of a diversion, and would quite easily be illuminated through the percentages involved.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 13:34   #110
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
He came from Tulse Hill which is about two minute walk from where myself, T&F and sbolly used to live. They're all thieves, whores, druggies and copyright infringers there. He probably had it coming to him.
which one of you was the whore ?
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 13:36   #111
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
He came from Tulse Hill which is about two minute walk from where myself, T&F and sbolly used to live. They're all thieves, whores, druggies and copyright infringers there. He probably had it coming to him.
I've seen this mentioned. I have also seen mentioned the fact that he came from brazil, and in brazil, if someone points a gun at you, you should run away whoever they are or you will get shot. You can take the brazillian out of brazil, but you can't take the mortal fear of being shot for no reason out of the brazillian.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 13:36   #112
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Re: London today

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Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3
which one of you was the whore ?
depends on how much you are willing to bid.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 13:52   #113
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
I've seen this mentioned. I have also seen mentioned the fact that he came from brazil, and in brazil, if someone points a gun at you, you should run away whoever they are or you will get shot. You can take the brazillian out of brazil, but you can't take the mortal fear of being shot for no reason out of the brazillian.
The Brazilian police (in particular Sao Paulo) are also fairly notorious for shooting people.

Quote:
The Eldorado case is not an isolated one: Brazilian police are often accused of murder, torture and other crimes. Veja, a weekly newspaper, reported this month that 15,000 police officers, or 3% of the national total, are currently charged with serious crime. Even when ostensibly fighting crime rather than committing it, the police often shoot first and ask questions later. In Sao Paulo, the most populous state, the number of killings by the military police (who despite their name and weaponry, act as a general constabulary) hit a peak of 1,421 in 1992.
From http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~poli354/...il_police.html
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 14:03   #114
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
The Brazilian police (in particular Sao Paulo) are also fairly notorious for shooting people.


From http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~poli354/...il_police.html
this is what I was getting at, sorry for not making myelf a bit clearer.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 14:06   #115
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
i still say anyone stupid enough to run away (its not like he just ran a little bit either, vaulting the ticket things, etc) had something to hide and quite possibly deserved to be shot
[sarcasm/]
I strongly suspect that fare dodging on the tube is a capital offence (yet)
[/sarcasm]
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 14:11   #116
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
as dante said, yes it will, but for statistical reasons only, because the police know full well that the odds of them finding a white suicide bomber are lower than (the already incredibly low) odds of finding an asian suicide bomber. Whites will still get searched "just to even the numbers"
My point was that you would have a problem if they searching white people only. Essentially, it's harassing a large group of people due to the actions of a minority.therefore you are increasing the liklihood of alienating increasing proportions of that group. there is also the question about how long the searches would continue for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
I see no challenge to "innocent until proven guilty" - this is a preventative measure. there are a large number of these kinds of preventative measures in a number of fields, from medicine, where dialysis patients must be tested for HIV before being allowed dialysis, through to police background checks for a variety of jobs.
these checks aren't just on people of a certain colour, they are on everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
It is unfortunate that certain groups will ultimately be investigated more thoroughly for this, but the fact of the matter is, that when you look at the 8 photos of suicide bombers in london, not one of them is a white guy. As I mentioned before, the muslims and asians will already be stared at far more than anyone else. why? because all the bombers were from those ethnic groups. Also the other boat full of asians at the whitewater rafting club will also be investigated. Do you think it is fair that more police time is put into investigating this group than is put into invesitigating all the white people who turned up that day or do you think it is unfair?
I don't really know much about this. Did the Asian have any type of contact with the terrorists on this exercise? Where were they from? How many Asians are Muslim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
your issue regarding drugs and so on is an interesting one in that, since muslims might be searched more, more drugs will be found amongst muslims, regardless of whether more muslims carry drugs than other groups, but I think it is a bit of a diversion, and would quite easily be illuminated through the percentages involved.
You are saying Muslim but it's not just Muslims, it's people who look Middle Eastern or whatever. Religion really doesn't come into it unless you are suggesting just searching people wearing religious clothes. If you look at the pictures you will see that none of them were wearing anything of the sort.

So, I don't know about the British statistics but people with different ethnic backgrounds are statistically more likely to commit certain types of crimes than people from other backgrounds, (e.g. black people may be more likely to be involved in gun crime while Jamacians may be more likely to commit drug offences, for example).

So whether these people use drugs more or less isn't really relevant to the discussion. the fact that they are being searched specifically means that they are more likely to find these people carrying drugs than if they weren't being racially profiled.

If correct me if I'm wrong here but I don't believe that racial profiling is legal i.e. you can't search someone just for looking a certain way. the police can't search Jamacians just because they are more likely to be carrying weed. So all the police can do is ask to search they bag or refuse entry to the train. this seems like a waste of time.

Good god, I really didn't think this race thing was going to drag on for quite so long.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 14:36   #117
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
i.e. you can't search someone just for looking a certain way. the police can't search Jamacians just because they are more likely to be carrying weed. So all the police can do is ask to search they bag or refuse entry to the train. this seems like a waste of time.
Well, perhaps not but obviously you can search someone who "matches the description" of someone they are looking for. Since most descriptions are hopelessly vague ("black male between 18 and 25 of about 6ft tall) you can quasi-legitimately search lots of people for the way they look.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 14:56   #118
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Well, perhaps not but obviously you can search someone who "matches the description" of someone they are looking for. Since most descriptions are hopelessly vague ("black male between 18 and 25 of about 6ft tall) you can quasi-legitimately search lots of people for the way they look.
If you have intelligence which indicates a crime is going to be committed (e.g. terrorist attacks) by a certain individual or group then that may give some legitimacy to specific searches.

Right now we have a 'war on terror' which could last 10-20 years if not more. to continuinly search only Arabs at random for this length of time based on a general threat may do more harm than good.

Seeing as the liklihood of these searches being sucessful is quite remote (if not a total failure in finding any devices) then the antagonism caused by this may not really be worth it.


Just for the record I don't even care that much about this whole thing and am pretty much just playing devil's advocate here.

I just thought that it was worth exploring the worth of bag searches. Bag searches may deter from terrorists taking bombs onto trains. Just searching people who look like Muslims is unlikely to mke any difference to the sucess rate of the searches, unless these terrorists are unbelievealby stupid (seeing as there is supposed to be a 'mastermind' behind the attacks you would assume that he would then pick an 'easier' target) except the negative ones I've previously mentioned.

Edit: All the terrorists have been males aged between 18 and 30 so far. Should we not search the women or old men?
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Last edited by All Systems Go; 25 Jul 2005 at 15:11.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 15:12   #119
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Re: London today

On a side note, it has become apparent that their was some pre-knowledge of the impending attacks prior to 7/7.

I have it from a couple of soures that procedures at various military establishments had been changed the day before the attack on 7/7, specifcally all vehicles entering the facilities were searched and personal belongings searched of everyone entering. Also that security had been beefed up, with the inclusion of sniffer dogs and armed police at the gates.

This is not "normal" procedure, prior to this only random searches were carried out and the norm was one or two guards (military no civilian) on the gate.

It may well be pure coincidence but I doubt that it would be coincidental that the above procedures were changed at 3 facilities where I have personal knowledge?
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 15:43   #120
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
On a side note, it has become apparent that their was some pre-knowledge of the impending attacks prior to 7/7.
no it hasn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
I have it from a couple of soures
really Mr Bond. do tell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
that procedures at various military establishments had been changed the day before the attack on 7/7, specifcally all vehicles entering the facilities were searched and personal belongings searched of everyone entering.
this is standard military procedure for the level of security alert before the london attack.
If you are aware of any military base not employing this level of security, please inform the MOD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
Also that security had been beefed up, with the inclusion of sniffer dogs and armed police at the gates.
sniffer dogs and armed guards are also standard.
I imagine what you are getting is 'pub talk' from drunk squaddies.

the need to make a conversation more exciting than it infact is leads to exaggeration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
This is not "normal" procedure, prior to this only random searches were carried out
no.
everybody was to be searched.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
It may well be pure coincidence but I doubt that it would be coincidental that the above procedures were changed at 3 facilities where I have personal knowledge?
I think it's a combination of exaggeration and the inability to think clearly.

where for instance would the military have got this so called warning from?
why was there no change to security any where in the capital?
If you assume MI5 or the intelligence service tipped off the military, why do you assume that military targets are more valuable to the intelligence service?

where the moon landings faked ?
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 16:14   #121
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
On a side note, it has become apparent that their was some pre-knowledge of the impending attacks prior to 7/7.
I'm pretty sure you're wrong. This is the only link I found but it was the main story in the UK a few days after the attack.

http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/afx...fx2144530.html
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 16:22   #122
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Re: London today

You gullible fools, haven't you all read the truth?!?!? This website explains what really happened :

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles...gexercises.htm
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 16:26   #123
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Exclamation Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Edit: All the terrorists have been males aged between 18 and 30 so far. Should we not search the women or old men?
But of course. New York City has implemented random searches of packages and bags. Although there have been no documented cases of 60-year-old women terrorists we wouldn't want to resort to profiling. :/
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 16:53   #124
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
[sarcasm/]
I strongly suspect that fare dodging on the tube is a capital offence (yet)
[/sarcasm]

quite frankly, if all i had done was fare dodging, and three armed police were chasing me (not that i would have been stupid enough to run in the first place) i would move to a different country (and claim political asylum lolly roffle)
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 17:02   #125
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Re: London today

he was shot 8 times in the head




with bullets not cum


(and once in the shoulder)
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 17:04   #126
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
You gullible fools, haven't you all read the truth?!?!? This website explains what really happened :

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles...gexercises.htm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dante's link
The bombing in Bolognia was part of a CIA operation code named Gladio, where the US government would pay right-wing terrorists to carry out bombings to be blamed on leftists in Europe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dante's link
From Putin blowing up his own apartment buildings to Israel being behind Hamas, the evidence is consistently clear that large scale terrorism is always state sponsored.


The last paragraphs were ace!
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 18:36   #127
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
no it hasn't.



really Mr Bond. do tell.



this is standard military procedure for the level of security alert before the london attack.
If you are aware of any military base not employing this level of security, please inform the MOD.



sniffer dogs and armed guards are also standard.
I imagine what you are getting is 'pub talk' from drunk squaddies.

the need to make a conversation more exciting than it infact is leads to exaggeration.



no.
everybody was to be searched.



I think it's a combination of exaggeration and the inability to think clearly.

where for instance would the military have got this so called warning from?
why was there no change to security any where in the capital?
If you assume MI5 or the intelligence service tipped off the military, why do you assume that military targets are more valuable to the intelligence service?

where the moon landings faked ?
1. I work at a number of Military establishments including one that is on full alert at all times.
2. The normal procedure has been, random searches of vehicles and pedstrians, normally all they check is your ID, it is now the case that everything is checked.
3. I was not on a Military base on the day before or anytime after untill today, where I was subjected to the procedure as described,
4. When you have personal experince matey, then comment, otherwise get a grip and shut the ferk up asshole
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 23:06   #128
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
1.2.3. Words
4. When you have personal experince matey, then comment, otherwise get a grip and shut the ferk up asshole
I am sure if you were to google up any number of quaint conspiracy theories or UFO sightings a good proportion of them would say the same thing.

"There could have been 24354 other reasons but my imagination has cooked up this whacky explanation and I'm going to post about it on the internet!!1"

Can't argue with that kind of logic now can we? You were there
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 23:09   #129
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Re: London today

Has anyone here ever been searched since 9/11?

Here in the US they don't seem to racially profile. Myself and my wife have both been searched getting onto an airplane. By this I mean more than just the bag search and the metal detector. We were part of the old white people quota. I was happy to do my part.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 23:29   #130
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Re: London today

Yeah, I was searched at almost every point on any trip I made to the US since 9/11, starting with the local police as I came into the airport.

I must have the 'I'd like to blow most of these people up look'

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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 23:39   #131
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Re: London today

In the future don't book the fligt under the name Ninja.
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Unread 27 Jul 2005, 22:34   #132
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling
I am sure if you were to google up any number of quaint conspiracy theories or UFO sightings a good proportion of them would say the same thing.

"There could have been 24354 other reasons but my imagination has cooked up this whacky explanation and I'm going to post about it on the internet!!1"

Can't argue with that kind of logic now can we? You were there
It may well have been that there was intelligence to suggest an attack was imminent and not a specific threat.

This has happend on several occasions that I can recal, but fortunately nothing had happend.

All I am saying is that it is strangely coincidental that security levels were increased prior to the attacks on the Tube/Bus.

I dont think for a minute there were any specifics, otherwise security in London itself would have been tightened.
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Unread 27 Jul 2005, 22:50   #133
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Has anyone here ever been searched since 9/11?

Here in the US they don't seem to racially profile. Myself and my wife have both been searched getting onto an airplane. By this I mean more than just the bag search and the metal detector. We were part of the old white people quota. I was happy to do my part.
Last time I was flying back from the US I was searched, my bags were searched, my shoes were searched (2 sniffer dogs needed vetenary attention afterwards) and I had to show them my laptop working. A small price to pay to keep democracy and freedom I say (or something)
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Unread 30 Jul 2005, 10:41   #134
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Re: London today

My brother is a Metropoliton police officer. He works Sutton and Croydon, sometimes he works up London. He has been told by his big boss man that he can search whoever he suspects as being a bomber (well he can search whoever he likes anyway, which he does, but regarding the suicide bombings) but that it isn't white men in their forties who are bombing people, it's young middle-eastern men. So he has basically been told to search people that look asian or middle eastern and that he shouldn't really bother with anyone else unless he suspects them of having drugs or whatnot on them. Thought that might be of interest.
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Unread 30 Jul 2005, 17:18   #135
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Re: London today

I heard the blokes who pumped the bullets into Jean Charles de Menezes got kicked off the British Police Snooker team.













Well, it did take them eight bullets to pot a black.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 13:30   #136
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by *donkie*
I heard the blokes who pumped the bullets into Jean Charles de Menezes got kicked off the British Police Snooker team.













Well, it did take them eight bullets to pot a black.

this should go in the bombing jokes thread really. "eight shots" would have been better than "eight bullets" too.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 13:38   #137
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by HAL-9000
So he has basically been told to search people that look asian or middle eastern and that he shouldn't really bother with anyone else unless he suspects them of having drugs or whatnot on them.
Yes, the Home Office confirmed this.

See here : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4734725.stm among other stories.
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