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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 00:53   #1
HobbieRogue4
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Gay Marriage

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
The fact you can vote on banning gay marriage at all is immensely disturbing to me.
Why? Clearly a significant portion of Americans feel threatened or are otherwise opposed to homosexuality and as you can be socially hanged for denouncing it, why not cast an anonymous vote in favor of saying "up yours?"
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 00:54   #2
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Re: Gay Marriage

because shitting on someone over something that doesn't affect you just to make yourself feel better makes you an arsehole

and they're clearly worried about what homosexuals do to arseholes, so wish to discourage them

-mist
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 00:55   #3
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Re: Gay Marriage

It's a legal issue. That is why it can be voted upon. People can call themselves married, even find a minister and have a ceremony, they can go on a honeymoon, and then live together. However, the contractual issue was what was in question.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 00:57   #4
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Re: Gay Marriage

I really don't like miscegenation can I vote on banning it please?

In fact, I don't like Republicans also, can I ban them?

And Jews.

And you get the idea.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:01   #5
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Re: Gay Marriage

If men want to stick their cocks up each others arses, its no concern of mine or yours, so long as those involved are consenting.

If they want to make a life long commitment to sticking cocks up each others arses in a loving manner and have it recognised then it is still no concern of mine or yours so long as those involved are consenting.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:02   #6
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Re: Gay Marriage

The gay marriage ban was the biggest one-sided issue yesterday. I just dont think that they should have the same title that traditional heterosexual marriages have had forever. I support giving homosexuals every single right that heterosexuals have, but just not terming it marriage. I think it is a religous issue.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:03   #7
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Re: Gay Marriage

We already have discrimination in our contract law, minors are not allowed to sign contracts. The contract law regarding marriage was vague. Is the contract of marriage between one man and one woman? Between two women and one man? Between a man and a child? Between a man and a man? Why is gay marriage acceptable and polygamy is not? We had the chance to decide what the boundries are, and we did.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:04   #8
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by HobbieRogue4
Why? Clearly a significant portion of Americans feel threatened or are otherwise opposed to homosexuality and as you can be socially hanged for denouncing it, why not cast an anonymous vote in favor of saying "up yours?"
Dante phrased it well. The state should not play a part in the private lifes of it's citizens. I have no objection to the catholic church, or any other church, banning gay marriage but when the state does so those people are having their essential rights infringed upon.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:06   #9
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavinBrahm
It's a legal issue. That is why it can be voted upon. People can call themselves married, even find a minister and have a ceremony, they can go on a honeymoon, and then live together. However, the contractual issue was what was in question.

Was it presented as a legal or political (or possibly moral/religious) issue?

What part of the contract was in question?

Should matters which are purely legal be dealt with by public vote or by your appointed representatives (Senators/congressmen/councilors/judges etc) ?
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:07   #10
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Re: Gay Marriage

"I support giving homosexuals every single right that heterosexuals have, but just not terming it marriage."

I disagree. Take for example two bachelors. Set aside the social stigma. They start a business. Tax laws are far more favorable to married couples. If a partner dies, they automatically inherit everything with no tax punishment. Two men could marry as a business agreement. They could divorce to nullify it. It was a huge loophole.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:07   #11
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Event_Horizon
I think it is a religous issue.
For the majority of like-minded voters, probably. Religion may not dictate everyone's policy, but it certainly affects their decision-making.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:07   #12
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Re: Gay Marriage

Polygamy should be legal in any rational society.

Minors can sign contracts by the way (if it concerns necessities) but this is rarely used in law (at least in the UK). But minors can't sign contracts because they are presumed to not be aware of the full ramifications of what they are doing. Similarly people certified insane can't necessarily sign certain contracs. This is a rational discrimination in other words, not like the mindless bigotry that anti-Gay restrictions are.

I'd abolish the state recognition of "marriage" and let whomever wanted to get on with it, get on with it. You want to be called married to ten people? Go for it. Want to be married in a church to your pet pig? Find a church which will do it. If you can't, form your own. In the UK there are almost no tax benefits (or similar) for married couples.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:08   #13
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavinBrahm
I disagree. Take for example two bachelors. Set aside the social stigma. They start a business. Tax laws are far more favorable to married couples. If a partner dies, they automatically inherit everything with no tax punishment. Two men could marry as a business agreement. They could divorce to nullify it. It was a huge loophole.
A man and a woman could marry as a business agreement and then divorce to nullify it. Are there no women outside the kitchen where you come from?
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:10   #14
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavinBrahm
"I support giving homosexuals every single right that heterosexuals have, but just not terming it marriage."

I disagree. Take for example two bachelors. Set aside the social stigma. They start a business. Tax laws are far more favorable to married couples. If a partner dies, they automatically inherit everything with no tax punishment. Two men could marry as a business agreement. They could divorce to nullify it. It was a huge loophole.

Are a man and a woman somehow magically incapable of doing this?

/edit Damn you Johnny and your super speedy posting.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:11   #15
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Re: Gay Marriage

"Was it presented as a legal or political (or possibly moral/religious) issue?

What part of the contract was in question?

Should matters which are purely legal be dealt with by public vote or by your appointed representatives (Senators/congressmen/councilors/judges etc) ?"

On the ads, they played up the contract issue, which is why I was concerned. The religious right obviously made it a moral issue, which is their right. They can ban liquor sales due to moral issue, they can certainly have an effect on contract issues.

The law in Ohio is that constitutional amendments are passed by our state congress, and then must win a majority of the popular vote. The reason it had to be a constitutional amendment was because some reactionary judges were making calls on the matter, instead of allowing those respective states to vote on the issue. Since the US Supreme Court has said this is a state issue, a change to the state constitution prevents gays from getting married in Mass. and moving to Ohio. Their marriage would not be legally recognized.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:13   #16
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
...having their essential rights infringed upon.
So what rights? Being recognized contractually?

There are some things that are available through marriage, such as items pertaining to children, but ask yourself, could it just be an acceptance issue?

Dante's point is hugely valid, so it begs the question, "what's the problem?"

Religion, if it dictates choice, can be argued to be utterly flawed. The Bible certainly never states "everybody is equal and should be afforded equal rights."

The "silent majority" in America seems to be no longer silent, as policy and political figures are steadily moving ahead...
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:15   #17
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Re: Gay Marriage

I have seen reasons for a vote to clear up state contractual laws but I have seen no argument that would support the denial of gay civil unions/marriages .
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:16   #18
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Re: Gay Marriage

"Are a man and a woman somehow magically incapable of doing this?"

No, they obviously could. In fact marriages are happening for tax benifits alot more often. However its unlikely that anyone is going to vote for a ban on all marriage. The odds, because of the two populations, is that it could happen alot more often. This is what alot of people sought to avoid. And again, If two men can be married, why not a man and two women?
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:17   #19
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by HobbieRogue4
bleagh

I thought all men were equal in gods eyes or some such bollocks?
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:20   #20
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavinBrahm
This is what alot of people sought to avoid. And again, If two men can be married, why not a man and two women?

I see no reason why they should not be bound together, if they wish to do so and can consent.

Is this not something you can do in certain US states (Utah?) ?
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:22   #21
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Re: Gay Marriage

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Originally Posted by Ninja_spammer
I thought all men were equal in gods eyes or some such bollocks?
Not if they are taking the same advantage of men as they should be of women, by no less than divine right.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:23   #22
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Re: Gay Marriage

"...having their essential rights infringed upon."

There is no right to marry whomever one likes. You would have people wanting to marry children or multiple partners, and those partners would recieve all the benifits of marriage under the law. No one says they can't do whatever they like together, but most people feel that contractual regonition of the union is not appropriate, if for no other reason than the slippery slope argument.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:24   #23
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by HobbieRogue4
So what rights? Being recognized contractually?
The right to not be discriminated against by the state. Personally I don't support tax breaks for married people but if you're going to give them to one type of union then it's discriminatory in nature to not give them to another type of union, unless there is something separately wrong with that type of union (ie that between a man and a cockroach or a woman and a lunatic or a man and a four month year old baby).

Quote:
Religion, if it dictates choice, can be argued to be utterly flawed. The Bible certainly never states "everybody is equal and should be afforded equal rights."

The "silent majority" in America seems to be no longer silent, as policy and political figures are steadily moving ahead...
No single religion should be allowed to affect the runnings of the state. If I set up my religion tomorrow which was pro-gay marriage and anti-heterosexual marriage (we'd procreate via artificial insemination) would I be allowed, if I gained enough followers, to ban heterosexual marriage. I'd sincerely hope not.


PS general post supporting polygamy

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavinBrahm
There is no right to marry whomever one likes. You would have people wanting to marry children or multiple partners, and those partners would recieve all the benifits of marriage under the law. No one says they can't do whatever they like together, but most people feel that contractual regonition of the union is not appropriate, if for no other reason than the slippery slope argument.
There is a right (implied usually) to marry whoever one wishes to as long as that person is able to consent to being married to the first individual.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:27   #24
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Re: Gay Marriage

"Is this not something you can do in certain US states (Utah?) ?"

No its been illegal for nearly 100 years. Moral issues aside, think about issues like health care. Does "family coverage" cover ten wives and their kids? You know someone would go to court over this, and as such, we'd prefer to quelch the whole aurgument alltogether.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:28   #25
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
No single religion should be allowed to affect the runnings of the state.
Banning religion is against my rights.

Separation of church and state exists, but separation of religion motivating my thinking, does not. It would, only if I don't get the support of 50 million people in this country.*

*And 270 Electoral votes.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:28   #26
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Re: Gay Marriage

"unless there is something separately wrong with that type of union (ie that between a man and a cockroach or a woman and a lunatic or a man and a four month year old baby)."

This gets into the slippery slope argument. Who gets to decide what is fundementally wrong? The voters? They just did.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:30   #27
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Re: Gay Marriage

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Originally Posted by DavinBrahm
Who gets to decide what is fundementally wrong? The voters? They just did.
Not if they're "wrong."
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:31   #28
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavinBrahm
"unless there is something separately wrong with that type of union (ie that between a man and a cockroach or a woman and a lunatic or a man and a four month year old baby)."

This gets into the slippery slope argument. Who gets to decide what is fundementally wrong? The voters? They just did.
Rationality? Can a lunatic consent to being married to someone? Can a baby? I'd answer no to both of these questions (as I hope you would). One "normal" man can consent to being married to another though. The issue is one of consent.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:32   #29
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Re: Gay Marriage

how does the argument against having 10 wives relate to having a husband? if you wanted to stop people having 10 husbands, i can see your point - tho one would expect that the health insurance controct, or whatever, would cover this

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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:35   #30
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Re: Gay Marriage

"One "normal" man can consent to being married to another though. The issue is one of consent."

That may be true, but its largely irrelevent. Who gets to decide what is acceptable? In a system of nearly endless chacks and balances, what better chioce than the people? Ultimately they are the ones who have to live with their decision. If they do something legally, they should not be stopped. No one has a right to interfere with the will of the people. That is the highest right, the one that superceedes all others. The checks and balances protect us from the mob, but if someone can navigate that gauntlet, whatever they vote for their area should become law. This is why our system works.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:37   #31
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavinBrahm
"One "normal" man can consent to being married to another though. The issue is one of consent."

That may be true, but its largely irrelevent. Who gets to decide what is acceptable? In a system of nearly endless chacks and balances, what better chioce than the people? Ultimately they are the ones who have to live with their decision. If they do something legally, they should not be stopped. No one has a right to interfere with the will of the people. That is the highest right, the one that superceedes all others. The checks and balances protect us from the mob, but if someone can navigate that gauntlet, whatever they vote for their area should become law. This is why our system works.
The will of the people?


COMMUNIST!
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:42   #32
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Re: Gay Marriage

Democracy. A represenative one at that, not mob rule.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:44   #33
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Re: Gay Marriage

your system doesn't work tho, that's rather the problem. anyway, the right of the individual is more important than the will of the people whom it doesn't affect

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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:45   #34
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavinBrahm
That may be true, but its largely irrelevent. Who gets to decide what is acceptable? In a system of nearly endless chacks and balances, what better chioce than the people? Ultimately they are the ones who have to live with their decision. If they do something legally, they should not be stopped. No one has a right to interfere with the will of the people. That is the highest right, the one that superceedes all others. The checks and balances protect us from the mob, but if someone can navigate that gauntlet, whatever they vote for their area should become law. This is why our system works.
The entire concept on which the USA is based is that people have inalienable rights based on the ideals of life, liberty and the pursuit if happiness. If you wish to live under the tyranny of the majority go ahead but please do not still pretend you live in the land of the free.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:48   #35
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Re: Gay Marriage

Does a democracy not protect and respect the minority as well as the majority?
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:48   #36
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavinBrahm
Democracy. A represenative one at that, not mob rule.
"Give them liberty, or give them death"

How can you defend a country founded on the principle of individuality, yet take away that right for a few?
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 01:59   #37
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Re: Gay Marriage

It does, which is why we have a list of unalienable rights. The right to enter a contract with whomever you want is not one of them.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 02:03   #38
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Re: Gay Marriage

perhaps it should be?

the right to happiness seems about as basic as you can get...

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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 02:04   #39
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Re: Gay Marriage

You still haven't actually given any reason as to why they should not be allowed to have such a contract apart from some very vague 'slippery slope' type arguments.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 02:28   #40
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavinBrahm
"Is this not something you can do in certain US states (Utah?) ?"

No its been illegal for nearly 100 years. Moral issues aside, think about issues like health care. Does "family coverage" cover ten wives and their kids? You know someone would go to court over this, and as such, we'd prefer to quelch the whole aurgument alltogether.


Because the insurance companies wouldn't catch on pretty damn quick and ask questions like "how many people are you married to?" and "how many children do you have?" when figuring out the insurance premiums OHHHHH NO
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 02:31   #41
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Re: Gay Marriage

BTW ...



BLACKS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO MARRY WHITES!
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 02:37   #42
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Re: Gay Marriage

Dear Osama Bin Laden.

Next time you hit the U.S, please hit the freaking reactionary rednecks of Texas instead of the progressive northerners!
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 02:39   #43
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
BTW ...



BLACKS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO MARRY WHITES!
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 02:57   #44
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavinBrahm
It does, which is why we have a list of unalienable rights. The right to enter a contract with whomever you want is not one of them.
The pursuit of happiness and liberty would rationally lead to the freedom to enter consensual contracts.
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 02:59   #45
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Re: Gay Marriage

lol adam and steve not adam and steve lol

Marriage is a legal institution and always had been, religion just decided to step in
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 03:05   #46
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
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lol adam and steve not adam and steve lol

Marriage is a legal institution and always had been, religion just decided to step in


:in before edit: \o/
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 03:12   #47
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Re: Gay Marriage

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:in before edit: \o/
aw ****. ..... well you get the idea....
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 03:14   #48
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Re: Gay Marriage

sometimes i think all the nanny state shite we get is bad

then i remember it could be much worse

-mist
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 03:25   #49
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Re: Gay Marriage

i suppose that if i were to step in now and spoil all your fun then i should be overcome with such a wave of nostalgia from my childhood that i would blush to my roots....


marriage is not a contract.
contracts exist in all jurisdictions (what you might call a country; an area of land which is govened by a legal system) and few restrict them.
thus a contract between two men saying that they will both buy a one bedroom flat and live in it together and that upon one of them deciding to leave for someone else the other should get the whole flat, is binding in law.
as a contract.
a marriage is a word invented by some religious groups.
religious laws are not laws.
religions are not legally binding.
some laws include the word 'marriage'. to describe contractrual (relationships considered a contract) relationships when in fact there was never actually a written contract (just cake and a white dress).
that's just laziness.

there is no need for gay men to be allowed to marry in the US or anywhere.
there is no need for straight people to be allowed to marry each other in the US or anywhere.

people bind themselves to each other by what they frequently call promises.
promises are not legally binding.

marriage is a promise.

all that matters is how assets (property or things) are divided when the promise breaks down.

the courts decide this.

the US courts and the courts of all western countries (perhaps others too but i can not promise because i do not no) make the decision by looking into the relationship between the parties.
that means what actually happened.

so. gay marriage.

should any christian church accept and endorse gay marriage?
there are two answers:
1) it doesn't matter because the law doesn't care.
2) there is no reason for citizens who are governed by law to give two hoots.


xxx
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Unread 4 Nov 2004, 03:29   #50
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Re: Gay Marriage

actaully, a promise would be a verbal contract, and therefore they would actually be legally binding - at least here.

thanks for playing

[edit] wonder if calling god as a witness would get you chucked out of court [/edit]

-mist
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Last edited by mist; 4 Nov 2004 at 03:37.
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