User Name
Password

Go Back   Planetarion Forums > Non Planetarion Discussions > General Discussions

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 13:34   #1
Texan
Prince of Amber
 
Texan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 1,313
Texan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these parts
Mideast strides lift Bush

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7121415/
Pace of developments surprises even White House
ANALYSIS
By Peter Baker
A powerful confluence of events in the Middle East in recent weeks has infused President Bush's drive to spread democracy with a burst of momentum, according to supporters and critics alike, and the president now faces the challenge of figuring out how to capitalize on it in a region long resistant to change.

Successful elections in Iraq and the Palestinian territories in January have been followed by tentative changes in Egypt, Qatar and Saudi Arabia and a popular street uprising in Lebanon that toppled an unpopular government. With the encouragement of the American president, reformers across the region are applying escalating pressure on regimes to loosen their grip over autocratic societies.

The rapid pace of developments has surprised even Bush advisers and silenced or even converted some skeptics in Washington less than two months after the president opened his second term with an inaugural address setting the goal of "ending tyranny in our world." As he prepares to give another major speech today to mark the progress, Bush has been in a buoyant mood, aides said, seeing the recent moves as vindicating his expansive vision. "He feels validation," said one aide.

snip

‘Snowball effect’
"There is an element of snowball effect here," said a senior administration official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. "There's now some momentum, and I think we . . . and democracies all around the world are now pushing this a little bit harder. There's a kind of virtuous cycle here, because with each success more and more people want to join, and secondly more people in the democratic world want to join the project."

The cascading images of democracy in the region have made these particularly heady days for Bush, who began talking about Middle East democracy in his first term with little evident success. Aides were thrilled with a Newsweek cover story on Lebanon's so-called Cedar Revolution headlined "People Power," followed by a secondary headline that said "Where Bush Was Right."

This is very scary stuff. I predict that in 15 years or so, the Middle East might rival South America for freedom.
__________________
"We sleep safe at night in our beds because rough men stand ready to visit violence upon those who wish to do us harm." -- George Orwell.

Last edited by Texan; 8 Mar 2005 at 13:35. Reason: added the URL to article
Texan is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 13:40   #2
xtrasyn
Lonely analytic
 
xtrasyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,390
xtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud of
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

I don´t want to fire up any bandwagons so my opinion stays where it is.
__________________
For real
xtrasyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 13:43   #3
Radical Edward
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: South Pacific
Posts: 4,911
Radical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriendRadical Edward needs a job and a girlfriend
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
This is very scary stuff. I predict that in 15 years or so, the Middle East might rival South America for freedom.
an impressive feat..... isn't SA kind of ruled by military juntas and drug lords?

</uneducated misconceptions>
__________________
I think it's time we blow this scene, get everybody and the stuff together..........

ok 3..... 2..... 1.. let's jam
Radical Edward is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 14:17   #4
JammyJim
Godfather
 
JammyJim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: England
Posts: 5,185
JammyJim has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JammyJim has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JammyJim has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JammyJim has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JammyJim has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JammyJim has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JammyJim has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JammyJim has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JammyJim has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JammyJim has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JammyJim has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

id be very wary of sources from MSN and the like. infact all US based news sources. Propaganda and 'careful interpretation' is still very much alive even after the cold war folkes.
__________________
Forum Administrator
Mail : [email protected] // IRC : #forums
__________________
It's not personal, it's just business.
JammyJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 14:31   #5
Super
Sub
 
Super's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: University of Bath
Posts: 444
Super is a jewel in the roughSuper is a jewel in the roughSuper is a jewel in the rough
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

I don't understand why Lebanon is anything to do with the US. The US didn't ask Syria to pull out of Lebanon until they were already on their way to agreeing to it, because of the people of Lebanon. They gave themselves freedom. Is America going to take credit for every democracy that springs up in the future?
Super is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 14:34   #6
Knight Theamion
Miles Teg
 
Knight Theamion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Dom City
Posts: 5,192
Knight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like him
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

I think it is more 'despite' US actions that this is happening.
__________________
Audentes Fortuna Iuvat
Knight Theamion is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 14:46   #7
G.K Zhukov
Evil inside
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
G.K Zhukov is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
an impressive feat..... isn't SA kind of ruled by military juntas and drug lords?

</uneducated misconceptions>
It used to be, when USA and CIA ruled the sub-continent. (see also; Contras, Pinochet, Military Dictatorship(s), Torture, Genocide).

Now SA is more democractic than for decades, now that USA have stopped controlling it.

Funny isnt it.
__________________
<Germania>but you called Fury a bully, and that is terribly unfair
<Hicks>Occassionally individuals do things without Executive consent
<Dreadnought>You cant whois on Eclipse server without a registered nic, which mr ****stirrer doesnt have.
<Almeida> well i like to grow fat myself too, and when i have enough ships then i can engage in big battles
<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
<Jakiri> (Windows)XP was fine on release
G.K Zhukov is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 14:47   #8
Bashar
Idle Git
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wandering
Posts: 1,550
Bashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet society
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Freedom? You have to admit, Bush's freedom is kinda like the freedom Rome offered its colonies: " We're giving you a better way of life whether you like it or not". Isn't forcing democracy on those who might not want it tyrannical?

The whole human rights issue is based on civil and political rights, and that is pretty much what enforcing democracy is about. To quote a popular academic phrase on the subject: "What is the point in being able to participate in politics if you have nothing to eat". Personally, I think that Bush has his priorities wrong. We shouldn't assume that, just because democracy is the pinnacle of what we currently have, that everybody is ready or even right for it. This whole attitude is classed by many in the East as a new form of Western Imperialism, and I can see why.
Bashar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 14:53   #9
G.K Zhukov
Evil inside
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
G.K Zhukov is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Wouldnt it be an idea, Bashar, that the americans started to look at their own "democracy" before they started exporting it?

With 2 parties (sorry, factions of one party) and with such a low percent voting (and lets not go into the details of vote rigging in Florida), a press dominated by a few big companies, its hardly something you would like to export.

Who would buy Heineken if the beer tasted like sh*t?
__________________
<Germania>but you called Fury a bully, and that is terribly unfair
<Hicks>Occassionally individuals do things without Executive consent
<Dreadnought>You cant whois on Eclipse server without a registered nic, which mr ****stirrer doesnt have.
<Almeida> well i like to grow fat myself too, and when i have enough ships then i can engage in big battles
<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
<Jakiri> (Windows)XP was fine on release
G.K Zhukov is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 15:25   #10
Bashar
Idle Git
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wandering
Posts: 1,550
Bashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet society
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Absolute democracy is not possible with our current levels of technology, and declining political turnout is a problem in most democratic states. However, the US democracy is a particlularly undemocratic one due mainly to the method of assigning public office (president gives to biggest contributors to his campaign fund). The 2 party issue and voting system is a little harder to criticise, the vote rigging allegations aside, the system does lead to greater stability than say, a PR system, and it also leads to less sway from extremists, and I think there are enough of those in the US as it is. But certainly, the US democratic system is not the best it could be, and certainly their attentions would be better placed at home.

Forcing others to your way of life just because you are richer and more powerful than them just because you think it is best for them is completely wrong, immoral and tyrannical.
Bashar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 15:30   #11
Bashar
Idle Git
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wandering
Posts: 1,550
Bashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet society
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I don't think there are may people in the East who don't want democracy, and people will never be right for democracy until they try it. Clearly though invading countries and shooting civilians is undesirable too and ultimately the people of the Middle East would have benefitted from a lack of Western interference, well intentioned or otherwise. In any case I don't think that the US has brought serious democracy to Iraq.
How many of them have you asked? The democracies that we impose are based around our idea of human rights. If you think that the East wants this, then I suggest you read up on the Asian Values debate (it is quite interesting, and it is also becoming very prominent in the Asian Tigers), as whilst it doesn't exclude democracy, it does say that it isn't their priority. Their priority is getting their people off the poverty line, getting them all fed, clothed, educated and healthy. And that might not mean giving them political and civil rights yet. They prefer the traditional family model for community for this. Of course this doesn't mean they won't be democratic, but it means they won't be democratic by Bush's terms.
Bashar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 15:54   #12
Kurashima
Has Soup On His Head
 
Kurashima's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 10,095
Kurashima has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Kurashima has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Kurashima has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Kurashima has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Kurashima has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Kurashima has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Kurashima has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Kurashima has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Kurashima has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Kurashima has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Kurashima has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

TBH , when the US has been making serious wording to Syria to sort itself out for a few years now, it was obvious to anyone watching that when something happened in Lebanon, someone there was going to make it a backlash onto the Syrians since they had their eyes firmly fixed elsewhere. Pressure from the US Syria could handle, but pressure from Arabic neighbours was always going to cause them more problems than they can handle.

PS : Anyone care to bet theyll never find who was behind the carbombing of the former PM in Lebanon a few weeks back that started all this? I seem a recall a certain war in Europe being caused by the bombing of a dignitary in a car .....
__________________
And the Banker, inspired with a courage so new
It was matter for general remark,
Rushed madly ahead and was lost to their view
In his zeal to discover the Snark
Kurashima is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 16:35   #13
Bashar
Idle Git
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wandering
Posts: 1,550
Bashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet society
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
PS : Anyone care to bet theyll never find who was behind the carbombing of the former PM in Lebanon a few weeks back that started all this? I seem a recall a certain war in Europe being caused by the bombing of a dignitary in a car .....
Doubt the same will happen here, the circumstances were so vastly different and more extreme. Things were much more tense.
Bashar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 16:42   #14
Tactitus
Klaatu barada nikto
 
Tactitus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,237
Tactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Exclamation Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
Isn't forcing democracy on those who might not want it tyrannical?
No, because they can always vote some tyrant into power to take away their rights and oppress them if they enjoy it so much. I very much doubt they will though (at least, not deliberately).
Quote:
We shouldn't assume that, just because democracy is the pinnacle of what we currently have, that everybody is ready or even right for it. This whole attitude is classed by many in the East as a new form of Western Imperialism, and I can see why.
I find the whole 'asians/africans can't handle democracy' argument to be rather condescending.
__________________
The Ottawa Citizen and Southam News wish to apologize for our apology to Mark Steyn, published Oct. 22. In correcting the incorrect statements about Mr. Steyn published Oct. 15, we incorrectly published the incorrect correction. We accept and regret that our original regrets were unacceptable and we apologize to Mr. Steyn for any distress caused by our previous apology.
Tactitus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 17:57   #15
Bashar
Idle Git
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wandering
Posts: 1,550
Bashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet society
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
The Asian values debate is just put out by Asian elites justifying their backward and regressive policies, don't get sucked in..
It also came out of the countries in Asia that are making the most progress with their economies, and have the best improvement in living standards. That is a quantifiable fact, what you said is an opinion that I have not yet seen any evidence for. As for backwards and regressive, that is actually demonstrably false also.
Bashar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 18:02   #16
Bashar
Idle Git
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wandering
Posts: 1,550
Bashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet society
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
No, because they can always vote some tyrant into power to take away their rights and oppress them if they enjoy it so much. I very much doubt they will though (at least, not deliberately)..
And I wonder what would happen then? Oh yes, the US would go back and make them 'democratic' again. Democracy is not the be all and end all in life. I am UK, and obviously I support our democracy, and I appreciate it, however, this doesn't mean that everybody else will. I am not saying that they shouldn't have democracies, I am saying it should be THEM that decides they want a democracy, not us in the West.

Quote:
I find the whole 'asians/africans can't handle democracy' argument to be rather condescending.
Whoever said they can't handle democracy? You clearly misunderstood what I said. Read my above point. I never said or even implied they cannot handle it, I said that it might not be right for them. There is a major difference, saying they cannot handle it implies they are inferior and incapable, which would be condescending. What I was saying suggests that it shouldn't be our place to judge whether or not they should have it, it should be theirs. What justification do we have to dictate to people how they will live their lives and what culture they will have?
Bashar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 18:06   #17
Bashar
Idle Git
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wandering
Posts: 1,550
Bashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet society
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Oh, and a tastelessly amusing sidepoint (but still relevant to the thread): Of all the occasions that the USA has 'gone into' a country to 'democratise it' or for 'regime change' (which incidentally I believe is illegal by the US' own laws), none have ever led to a long-term stable democratic government. If Afghanistan lasts, it will be the first.

This is hardly a good sign for George Bush and his policies.
Bashar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 18:42   #18
Kurashima
Has Soup On His Head
 
Kurashima's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 10,095
Kurashima has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Kurashima has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Kurashima has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Kurashima has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Kurashima has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Kurashima has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Kurashima has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Kurashima has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Kurashima has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Kurashima has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Kurashima has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Can I be the first to follow the US foreign policy initiative that was given to us by Dubbya before his invasion of Afghanistan, and start shouting

AHHH. BASHAR!. THAT SOUNDS ARABIC OR SOMETHING. TERRORIST! QUICK, KILL HIM!
__________________
And the Banker, inspired with a courage so new
It was matter for general remark,
Rushed madly ahead and was lost to their view
In his zeal to discover the Snark
Kurashima is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 20:37   #19
G.K Zhukov
Evil inside
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
G.K Zhukov is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
Doubt the same will happen here, the circumstances were so vastly different and more extreme. Things were much more tense.
Indeed. The austrian-hungarian prince who was killed in Sarajevo, was shot. The PM of Lebanon was blown to pieces by a explosion. Gun - TNT = clear difference
__________________
<Germania>but you called Fury a bully, and that is terribly unfair
<Hicks>Occassionally individuals do things without Executive consent
<Dreadnought>You cant whois on Eclipse server without a registered nic, which mr ****stirrer doesnt have.
<Almeida> well i like to grow fat myself too, and when i have enough ships then i can engage in big battles
<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
<Jakiri> (Windows)XP was fine on release
G.K Zhukov is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 21:38   #20
Tactitus
Klaatu barada nikto
 
Tactitus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,237
Tactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Exclamation Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
And I wonder what would happen then? Oh yes, the US would go back and make them 'democratic' again.
I think you're equating democracy with something else. Maybe that's why you put it in quotes but I don't know what you're referring to.
Quote:
Democracy is not the be all and end all in life. I am UK, and obviously I support our democracy, and I appreciate it, however, this doesn't mean that everybody else will. I am not saying that they shouldn't have democracies, I am saying it should be THEM that decides they want a democracy, not us in the West.
Unfortunately, deciding that you want democracy if you live in non-democratic country generally means you have go stand in front of a tank or something (and the tank almost always wins that argument). I can certainly understand not wanting to get involved in other people's problems, but don't assume that's necessarily doing them a big favor.
Quote:
Whoever said they can't handle democracy? You clearly misunderstood what I said. Read my above point. I never said or even implied they cannot handle it, I said that it might not be right for them. There is a major difference, saying they cannot handle it implies they are inferior and incapable, which would be condescending. What I was saying suggests that it shouldn't be our place to judge whether or not they should have it, it should be theirs. What justification do we have to dictate to people how they will live their lives and what culture they will have?
I don't understand what constraint you think democracy puts on a people's culture or how they live their lives. The only thing democracy does is allow a people to change their government if/when they want to in a non-violent manner. I don't understand how you can think that's a bad thing unless you don't think (some) people are competent to rule themselves.
Quote:
Oh, and a tastelessly amusing sidepoint (but still relevant to the thread): Of all the occasions that the USA has 'gone into' a country to 'democratise it' or for 'regime change' (which incidentally I believe is illegal by the US' own laws), none have ever led to a long-term stable democratic government. If Afghanistan lasts, it will be the first.
Are you serious? Germany and Japan are the poster children for regime change. Are you suggesting they're not democratic, not stable, not long-term, or are you just ignoring history to try to make a point?
__________________
The Ottawa Citizen and Southam News wish to apologize for our apology to Mark Steyn, published Oct. 22. In correcting the incorrect statements about Mr. Steyn published Oct. 15, we incorrectly published the incorrect correction. We accept and regret that our original regrets were unacceptable and we apologize to Mr. Steyn for any distress caused by our previous apology.
Tactitus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 22:06   #21
Summanus
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 433
Summanus is just really niceSummanus is just really niceSummanus is just really niceSummanus is just really niceSummanus is just really nice
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus

Are you serious? Germany and Japan are the poster children for regime change. Are you suggesting they're not democratic, not stable, not long-term, or are you just ignoring history to try to make a point?
Important distinction. I'm fairly sure democracy was imposed on the Axis powers after the war was over, and to assist the rebuilding of these countries with vast amounts of capital. In Iraq the conflict is still transpiring, and the introduction of a democratic regime, seen to be sponsored by the Americans, has only given the insurgents a prime target to destroy, if not disrupt.

The major point, however, is that Germany and Japan were already stable
Summanus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 22:54   #22
Super
Sub
 
Super's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: University of Bath
Posts: 444
Super is a jewel in the roughSuper is a jewel in the roughSuper is a jewel in the rough
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Summanus
The major point, however, is that Germany and Japan were already stable
Stable as in Germany was run by a dictator and opposition parties were banned?
Super is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 23:47   #23
G.K Zhukov
Evil inside
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
G.K Zhukov is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Germany under Adolf&co was VERY stable

I mean, those who could cause any "instability" was either a) in camps b) killed c) had fled d) so afraid they hardly went out of the house
__________________
<Germania>but you called Fury a bully, and that is terribly unfair
<Hicks>Occassionally individuals do things without Executive consent
<Dreadnought>You cant whois on Eclipse server without a registered nic, which mr ****stirrer doesnt have.
<Almeida> well i like to grow fat myself too, and when i have enough ships then i can engage in big battles
<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
<Jakiri> (Windows)XP was fine on release
G.K Zhukov is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 8 Mar 2005, 23:49   #24
Marilyn Manson
Gone
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
Marilyn Manson has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Marilyn Manson has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Marilyn Manson has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Marilyn Manson has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Marilyn Manson has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Marilyn Manson has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Marilyn Manson has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Marilyn Manson has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Marilyn Manson has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Marilyn Manson has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Marilyn Manson has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Exclamation Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

You knew where you were under Nazism. In a ditch outside Dachau, mostly.
Marilyn Manson is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 00:05   #25
Bashar
Idle Git
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wandering
Posts: 1,550
Bashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet society
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Indeed. The austrian-hungarian prince who was killed in Sarajevo, was shot. The PM of Lebanon was blown to pieces by a explosion. Gun - TNT = clear difference
Triple Alliance/Triple Entente, large-scal propaganda from each side for some time in advance against each other etc.
Bashar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 00:18   #26
Bashar
Idle Git
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wandering
Posts: 1,550
Bashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet societyBashar is a pillar of this Internet society
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
I think you're equating democracy with something else. Maybe that's why you put it in quotes but I don't know what you're referring to.
The reason for the quotes there is because democracy is a very debateable idea. Each democracy is different, but if you go with broad analysis of the democracies that we genuinely accept to be very democratic (Western Europe, US etc.), it has still been argued there are different types of democracy that relative to each other are more/less kind (e.g. Majoritarian(Westminster)/Consensus model suggested by Lijphart). You also have states that are often classed as semi-democratic.

The point is that democracy is not a fixed entity. It varies drastically across the board, and some are more gentle/harsh than others. It is not as straight forward as being democratic/non-democratic.

Quote:
Unfortunately, deciding that you want democracy if you live in non-democratic country generally means you have go stand in front of a tank or something (and the tank almost always wins that argument). I can certainly understand not wanting to get involved in other people's problems, but don't assume that's necessarily doing them a big favor.
It is not a case of wanting, it is a case of whether or not it is right to do so. In the end, it should be up to those people to decide, you may not be able to see a way you would like to live differently, but you only know democracy. In the end, we are not asking those people if they want democracy and offering them help to get it if they do, we are telling them they want it.

Quote:
I don't understand what constraint you think democracy puts on a people's culture or how they live their lives. The only thing democracy does is allow a people to change their government if/when they want to in a non-violent manner. I don't understand how you can think that's a bad thing unless you don't think (some) people are competent to rule themselves.
You have no idea of my point. As I said somewhere in this thread, what is the point in being able to choose who runs your country if you are hungry? Politics might be your priority when it comes to rights and culture, but if you were living in the third world not knowing where your next meal would come from in a few days time, I wonder if it would be the same. You are judging other peoples cultural desires by your own.

Quote:
Are you serious? Germany and Japan are the poster children for regime change. Are you suggesting they're not democratic, not stable, not long-term, or are you just ignoring history to try to make a point?
Post WW 2 then, I forgot that (admittedly quite major) issue.
Bashar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 02:02   #27
JonnyBGood
Banned
 
JonnyBGood's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
And I wonder what would happen then? Oh yes, the US would go back and make them 'democratic' again. Democracy is not the be all and end all in life. I am UK, and obviously I support our democracy, and I appreciate it, however, this doesn't mean that everybody else will. I am not saying that they shouldn't have democracies, I am saying it should be THEM that decides they want a democracy, not us in the West.
There are tears streaming down my face here.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
JonnyBGood is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 02:51   #28
Texan
Prince of Amber
 
Texan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 1,313
Texan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these parts
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by JammyJim
id be very wary of sources from MSN and the like. infact all US based news sources. Propaganda and 'careful interpretation' is still very much alive even after the cold war folkes.
Try this one then --
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...ixnewstop.html

Bullish Bush hails 'shift to democracy'
By Alec Russell in Washington
(Filed: 09/03/2005)

President George W Bush yesterday hailed a democratic "thaw" in the Middle East, saying that authoritarian rule was the "last gasp of a discredited past".

Clearly buoyed by the hectic recent turn of events in Lebanon Mr Bush sought, in his first major foreign policy address since his inauguration in January, to capitalise on a series of encouraging developments in the region by stepping up the pressure on the region's autocrats.

He told them to reform or to risk fading into oblivion. "The chances of democratic progress in the broader Middle East have seemed frozen in place for decades," he said. "Yet at last clearly and suddenly the thaw has begun."

Mr Bush had strong words for Damascus, calling on Syria to pull all its troops and personnel out of Lebanon before Lebanese parliamentary elections scheduled for May.

But he did not refer to yesterday's rally of thousands of Lebanese in support of the Syrian forces. Rather, he said America and the world were backing the "people of Lebanon".

"All the world is witnessing your great movement of conscience. In the words of one Lebanese observer, democracy is knocking at the door of this country. And if successful in Lebanon, it is going to ring the door of every Arab regime."

He also maintained the pressure on Iran over its nuclear ambitions and its history of supporting terrorist groups, explicitly backing the opponents of the mullahs in Teheran. "We look forward to the day when the Iranian people are free," he said in his speech to Washington's National Defence University.

Mr Bush had a softer message for Washington's traditional Arab allies, in particular Egypt and Saudi Arabia, who have in the last two months made faltering steps towards democratic reform. "Each country in the Middle East will take a different path of reform," he said.

Just two months ago Mr Bush faced scepticism at home and abroad when the soaring rhetoric of his inauguration address, with its calls for the spread of freedom, fuelled concern that America was planning a new series of military adventures.

But after January's election in Iraq and with a reformist mood sweeping Lebanon, Mr Bush's aides are at their most bullish in nearly two years.

With some of their staunchest critics in the US media starting to hail their Middle Eastern record, they feel increasingly confident that Mr Bush's policy of spreading freedom is being vindicated.

Officials in the United Nations fear that the next focus of his revolutionary fervour will be in their own building, following his nomination of John Bolton, his most outspoken "hawk" and a prominent UN-sceptic, as America's ambassador to the organisation.

The White House spokesman, Scott McClellan, said the nomination was intended to send a message that change was needed at the UN.
__________________
"We sleep safe at night in our beds because rough men stand ready to visit violence upon those who wish to do us harm." -- George Orwell.
Texan is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 03:55   #29
CamelToe
You Know I'm Right
 
CamelToe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Under The Sea
Posts: 241
CamelToe is infamous around these partsCamelToe is infamous around these partsCamelToe is infamous around these partsCamelToe is infamous around these partsCamelToe is infamous around these parts
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by JammyJim
id be very wary of sources from MSN and the like. infact all US based news sources. Propaganda and 'careful interpretation' is still very much alive even after the cold war folkes.
Well, the same story did appear here about a week ago. It must be true.
__________________
Yeah bro, make that twat get the jelly.

Don't act like you weren't thinking the same thing...

you should stop posting on these forums as you're CRAP
CamelToe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 03:57   #30
Dace
so f*cking zen
 
Dace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Hitting Bottom
Posts: 8,499
Dace has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dace has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dace has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dace has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dace has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dace has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dace has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dace has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dace has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dace has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dace has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

<3 Bush
__________________
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
Dace is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 05:27   #31
Texan
Prince of Amber
 
Texan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 1,313
Texan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these parts
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
It used to be, when USA and CIA ruled the sub-continent. (see also; Contras, Pinochet, Military Dictatorship(s), Torture, Genocide).

Now SA is more democractic than for decades, now that USA have stopped controlling it.

Funny isnt it.
It is funny.

When the Middle East becomes democratic, maybe the United States will leave it alone.

Think about. The United States mucked around in South America for decades. Now that the South Americans have quite a bit of freedom, the United States does not bother them as much. I think that shows that it is in their own best interest for the Middle Eastern countries to become democratic.
__________________
"We sleep safe at night in our beds because rough men stand ready to visit violence upon those who wish to do us harm." -- George Orwell.
Texan is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 06:42   #32
demiGOD
the Sacred Pervert
 
demiGOD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,492
demiGOD is just really nicedemiGOD is just really nicedemiGOD is just really nicedemiGOD is just really nicedemiGOD is just really nice
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

all for democracy
__________________
"....some might say, we will find a brighter day...."
-Oasis

Veneratio | Insomnia | F-Crew | Subh
demiGOD is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 07:58   #33
Summanus
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 433
Summanus is just really niceSummanus is just really niceSummanus is just really niceSummanus is just really niceSummanus is just really nice
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super
Stable as in Germany was run by a dictator and opposition parties were banned?
Read my post again.

Understand that I'm talking about after the war. There was no insurgency. They had a democratic system of government imposed by other democracies.

In Iraq, the war isn't over, and they're trying to impose democracy.

Logic failure
Summanus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 13:50   #34
Texan
Prince of Amber
 
Texan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 1,313
Texan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these partsTexan is infamous around these parts
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Summanus
There was no insurgency.
False. There was a post-World War II insurgency in Germany -- although it was nothing like what we are seeing in Iraq now.

There is so much crap on the Internet, it is difficult to separate fact from fiction; however, it appears to me that an insurgency was set up, trained and eventually proved ineffective.
__________________
"We sleep safe at night in our beds because rough men stand ready to visit violence upon those who wish to do us harm." -- George Orwell.
Texan is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 14:02   #35
arbondigo
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 386
arbondigo is a jewel in the rougharbondigo is a jewel in the rougharbondigo is a jewel in the rougharbondigo is a jewel in the rough
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan

When the Middle East becomes democratic, maybe the United States will leave it alone.
Do you actually belive that the Middle East will become democratic? It might not be the best way to live, according to us at least, but they don't know any other way. Unless they've lived in the West, they've always lived under a strict Islamic regime. Surely even you noticed how many protests there were during the "war" and even after Saddam was toppled, how the insurgents are still operating, and if anything they're getting stronger not weaker. There might be a slight change now that the American puppet PM lost the elections, but if you look at what he was saying in the election campaign it wasn't exactly democratic. As for the US leaving the Middle East alone if they become democratic, i doubt it.
arbondigo is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 14:06   #36
xtrasyn
Lonely analytic
 
xtrasyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,390
xtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud of
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Create an export market for their shit products perhaps
__________________
For real
xtrasyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 14:08   #37
arbondigo
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 386
arbondigo is a jewel in the rougharbondigo is a jewel in the rougharbondigo is a jewel in the rougharbondigo is a jewel in the rough
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Oil
arbondigo is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 15:11   #38
xtrasyn
Lonely analytic
 
xtrasyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,390
xtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud of
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

No that´s not true but your marketing strategies fail when people constantly have to stand in a line for something basic whilst being shot at by seperatists.

Democracy is a modern form of slavery, never forget that. Once you´ve become a consumer you´ve bought it (NPI).
__________________
For real
xtrasyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 15:29   #39
xtrasyn
Lonely analytic
 
xtrasyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,390
xtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud of
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Eh? I think your conflating democracy with capitalism.
No they have become one and the same. As soon as leading industrialist figures started getting involved in politics it was like this.
__________________
For real
xtrasyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 15:38   #40
Hicks
Raaaaaaaah!
 
Hicks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,296
Hicks is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHicks is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHicks is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHicks is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHicks is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHicks is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHicks is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHicks is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHicks is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHicks is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himHicks is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like him
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Now SA is more democractic than for decades, now that USA have stopped controlling it.

Funny isnt it.
Clearly the US laid the groundwork for this new found freedom and democracy by supporting and encouraging the torture and murder of all the pinko liberals who were causing trouble.

If anything South America provides us with a real example of why the US should get involved helping the poor oppressed people of the world (So long as there is strategic significance) throw off the shackles of tyranny even if it means anyone who dissents ends up in a ditch.
__________________
Hicks
Mercury & Solace
Always [Fury]
Hicks is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 15:39   #41
JonnyBGood
Banned
 
JonnyBGood's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by xtrasyn
No they have become one and the same. As soon as leading industrialist figures started getting involved in politics it was like this.
Now you're just making things up as you go along.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
JonnyBGood is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 15:47   #42
xtrasyn
Lonely analytic
 
xtrasyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,390
xtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud ofxtrasyn has much to be proud of
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
But you are suggesting you can't have democracy without capitalism or capitalism without democracy. That is just not true. There are a number of non-democratic capitalist countries. Burma for instance or Saudi Arabia..
Yeah you´re right. I was only thinking of non-capitalist democratic countries, like, ehhh, ehhm, will get back on that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Certainly the state and capitalism are bound up together but democracy in the liberal sense of the word is simply a system of accountable adminstration.
It´s a system where the people think they have something to say while this is not true. All you have is your right to vote, noone will ever listen to your opinion, nor do you have the power to add anything to any discussion as you are cunningly side-tracked by the voting system.

(I must add that I have been in some kind of moral political vacuum for the last 8-10 years where I can only see negative issues in sociotypes... Bring back the absolute monarchy is what I think now but I´m not even 100% sure of that. )
__________________
For real
xtrasyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 16:05   #43
Boogster
I dunno...
 
Boogster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: manchester
Posts: 1,502
Boogster has much to be proud ofBoogster has much to be proud ofBoogster has much to be proud ofBoogster has much to be proud ofBoogster has much to be proud ofBoogster has much to be proud ofBoogster has much to be proud ofBoogster has much to be proud of
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Now you're just making things up as you go along.
Aren't we all?
__________________
He shall drink naught but brine, for I'll not show him / Where the quick freshes are.
Boogster is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 16:10   #44
Knight Theamion
Miles Teg
 
Knight Theamion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Dom City
Posts: 5,192
Knight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like him
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

The way it is heading in the middle-east is that a proces started long long ago is coming to an inevitable conclusion, Bush only has the luck to be there at the time. It could've been Clinton, it also could've been his successor. The Israel/Palestine question would be settled.

The Saudi-Arabia case is worse, they were heading for mayor debts since in essence, they paid for the liberation of Iraq in 1991. They paid that whole war. After that the goverment of S/A had less funds to actually run their own country and buy their own security, so they became more dependant on the US for security (look at all the military orders they placed). This went to a point that within S/A there was enough tension that 'something' has to be done. These 'local elections' were the result, but when S/A differentiates itself from the US a bit more it will settle itself.

The question in Syria, them removing themselves from Lebanon is more a result of the 'revolution' within Lebanon then of international pressure. Because wasn't it so that 3 months ago Lebanon and Iran signed a treaty that they would consider an attack on either of them an attack on both? This is a clear indication that they care **** all about what America and the rest say.

The Iraq situation is only going worse, more casualties will fall and it will look more and more like a second Vietnam. The international forces have to leave at some point and then the situation will or be uncontrollable or a puppet-regime will be put in place there, but it still won't be the will of the Iraqi people, because that will simply differs to much with the international will.

If Bush was actually doing stuff, why hasn't he tackled Iran then? Other then just labeling them

The mayor changes in the arab world are of this moment initiated by themselves.
  1. Marocco. The new and fresh king gives his people more and more civil liberties and also gives women more rights.
  2. Egypt. President Mubarrak will get competition during the upcoming elections.

Bush has done **** all with that.
Conclusion: his efforts are or negligiable (sp?) or they are making matters worse.
__________________
Audentes Fortuna Iuvat
Knight Theamion is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 16:23   #45
Knight Theamion
Miles Teg
 
Knight Theamion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Dom City
Posts: 5,192
Knight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like himKnight Theamion is an inspiration to us all and we should try to be more like him
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Clinton had no intention of settling the Israel/Palestine situation, the policy of the United States has always been to keep the conflict going.

I asume you have some reliable source of this?

The Jewish lobby in the US is strong enough that the US should always push for some kind of 'Israeli safety', whereas your statement seems to be a bit rubbish
__________________
Audentes Fortuna Iuvat
Knight Theamion is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 16:38   #46
JonnyBGood
Banned
 
JonnyBGood's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
Aren't we all?
No?
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
JonnyBGood is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 17:08   #47
MrL_JaKiri
The Twilight of the Gods
 
MrL_JaKiri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Who would buy Heineken if the beer tasted like sh*t?
You mean it doesn't?
MrL_JaKiri is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 17:14   #48
Tactitus
Klaatu barada nikto
 
Tactitus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,237
Tactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldTactitus spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Exclamation Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
The United States doesn't want democracy in the Middle East. Why would it?
Because the current cesspool of authoritarian regimes have yielded nothing but oppression and terrorism? The old strategy of supporting tyrants for the sake of stability didn't work--time for a new strategy.
__________________
The Ottawa Citizen and Southam News wish to apologize for our apology to Mark Steyn, published Oct. 22. In correcting the incorrect statements about Mr. Steyn published Oct. 15, we incorrectly published the incorrect correction. We accept and regret that our original regrets were unacceptable and we apologize to Mr. Steyn for any distress caused by our previous apology.
Tactitus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 17:25   #49
MrL_JaKiri
The Twilight of the Gods
 
MrL_JaKiri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Surely "What do you mean if" is the traditional retort in these circumstances?
This is nonconformity week.
MrL_JaKiri is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 9 Mar 2005, 17:27   #50
JonnyBGood
Banned
 
JonnyBGood's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Mideast strides lift Bush

MY COUNTRY EXTENDS A BILLION MILES AND I'M ENTITLED TO A SAY IN ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS IN MY COUNTRY AND IF YOU DISAGREE YOU'RE A ****ING NAZI WHO RAPES CHILDREN.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
JonnyBGood is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:47.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2002 - 2018