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Unread 9 Aug 2010, 16:39   #1
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Alliance Points System

Lucian Alliance 208 1 5,764


One man alliances to dominate?
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Unread 9 Aug 2010, 17:01   #2
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Re: Alliance Points System

This is why it's tested, first. But by all means, proceed to drama.
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Unread 9 Aug 2010, 18:07   #3
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Re: Alliance Points System

I intend to cry publicly.
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Unread 9 Aug 2010, 21:07   #4
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Re: Alliance Points System

no cap on alliance ratio, single planet alliance hitting huge alliance and capping...
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Unread 10 Aug 2010, 05:52   #5
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Re: Alliance Points System

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Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
no cap on alliance ratio, single planet alliance hitting huge alliance and capping...
what's so new about it... you can atm still land on almost anything with 2 man team up. Alliance isn't a factor on it.. it's the eta's what open alliances for incs atm as fleets are out.
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Unread 10 Aug 2010, 08:27   #6
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Re: Alliance Points System

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordNieminen View Post
what's so new about it... you can atm still land on almost anything with 2 man team up. Alliance isn't a factor on it.. it's the eta's what open alliances for incs atm as fleets are out.
Er? you seem to have completely misunderstood my point. I was explaining why the one alliance had a huge amount of points. What were you doing?
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Unread 10 Aug 2010, 11:07   #7
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Re: Alliance Points System

Rambling like a drunken old man!
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Unread 10 Aug 2010, 13:36   #8
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Re: Alliance Points System

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Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Er? you seem to have completely misunderstood my point. I was explaining why the one alliance had a huge amount of points. What were you doing?
explaining why the alliance member was able to land on anything as I was bored. Aka might want to cap the gains from first week on that area.
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Unread 10 Aug 2010, 13:43   #9
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Re: Alliance Points System

Explaining it incorrectly, sure. He landed the first day because everyone lands the first day. Simple.
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Unread 10 Aug 2010, 13:52   #10
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Re: Alliance Points System

Regardless it should be capped.
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Unread 10 Aug 2010, 17:48   #11
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Re: Alliance Points System

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Regardless it should be capped.
Maybe.

Let us assume the difference at the last day of the round between the leading alliance and the best 1 planet alliance is 250 million points, (1.5m to 251.5m score). So the modifier is 167.667... let us for the sake of mathematics say 170.
Now, this planet gets 10 points for landing and let us say he has all three lands on that alliance = 30 points. And let us say he caps 600 roids on each landing, which makes it another 1800 points. He thus scores 1830 points which then get multiplied by 170 ... yielding a whooping 306830 score.

That is not necessary a lot - the same as an alliance making 256 points a tick in a 1200 tick round. And making 256 points per tick as an alliance is not impossible; if anything this goes into direction of encouraging alliances to be proactive on gaining score.
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Last edited by Heartless; 10 Aug 2010 at 18:42. Reason: changed my mind as I spotted my calculation mistake.
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Unread 11 Aug 2010, 14:43   #12
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Re: Alliance Points System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
Maybe.

Let us assume the difference at the last day of the round between the leading alliance and the best 1 planet alliance is 250 million points, (1.5m to 251.5m score). So the modifier is 167.667... let us for the sake of mathematics say 170.
Now, this planet gets 10 points for landing and let us say he has all three lands on that alliance = 30 points. And let us say he caps 600 roids on each landing, which makes it another 1800 points. He thus scores 1830 points which then get multiplied by 170 ... yielding a whooping 306830 score.

That is not necessary a lot - the same as an alliance making 256 points a tick in a 1200 tick round. And making 256 points per tick as an alliance is not impossible; if anything this goes into direction of encouraging alliances to be proactive on gaining score.
Those numbers, while interesting, aren't truly valuable. We simply don't know what the baseline is. If PA team were to release the data, we could start talking about what effect outliers would have on rankings, but until then we're stuck waiting for this round to end before we can see what a 'normal' points total is going to look like.

Currently the average for a top alliance seems to be somewhere around 1 point per member per tick, whereas some smaller alliances have pretty high points per member:
Code:
"[NFI]" 0.81
"Apprime" 0.92
"NewDawn" 0.90
"WE ARE ASCENDANCY" 1.01
"Conspiracy" 0.63
"ODDR" 0.79
"Osiris" 1.06
"Vengeance" 0.99
"Howling Rain" 1.31
"HeX" 1.63
"the horde" 0.98
"ROCK" 1.53
"DLR" 1.92
"xVx" 1.05
"PATSA" 1.41
"TheArmy" 3.46
"BillybroNomates" 15.08
"Empire " 0.00
"The Alliance" 4.27
"Boff wink" 0.00
"SHUX" 13.06
"T&P" 0.00
"Iroquois" 0.00
"snubbis" 2.02
"NGO" 0.00
"roete" 26.44
"The Seekers" 0.00
"Lucian Alliance" 67.74
"I heart bunnies" 0.00
"The Ministry" 0.00
"Knotpongan" 0.00
"Sith" 0.00
(Ordered by score rank.)

Note Lucien matching a 70 man top alliance for points per member per tick. The "obvious" best strategy for winning therefore becomes: a shitty unallied planet alone in a tag, in a gal that gets a lot of incoming from bigger alliances. Note also that Lucien's ratio against a top alliance is about 50-60.

Capping thus becomes "sensible" in that the point is to reward team work, not playing alone. A cap means that you have a certain amount of score you can recruit without being punished in terms of points.

That said, basing it on 'counted score' rather than 'actual score' is retarded, as it incentivizes racking up a high early score outside a tag, joining a tag and then dying a bit. For example: hide 40 members in other tags, rack up score by roiding newbies, then defect to a new tag, 'counted score' hovers around 0 and you have some big fleets to play havoc with.

It'd be a cool move to pull, but not exactly a balanced game to play
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Unread 11 Aug 2010, 14:59   #13
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Re: Alliance Points System

i have a question, dont know if it has been asked/answered already.

Are alliance points added to an alliance if a merge happens?

Cos if they are, 1 or 2 planets can get tons of alliance points throughout the round then merge into one of the top alliances and win.
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Unread 11 Aug 2010, 15:48   #14
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Re: Alliance Points System

With a cap, that doesn't matter (especially because you can only merge until tick 672).
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Unread 11 Aug 2010, 16:36   #15
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Re: Alliance Points System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Those numbers, while interesting, aren't truly valuable. We simply don't know what the baseline is. If PA team were to release the data, we could start talking about what effect outliers would have on rankings, but until then we're stuck waiting for this round to end before we can see what a 'normal' points total is going to look like.

Currently the average for a top alliance seems to be somewhere around 1 point per member per tick, whereas some smaller alliances have pretty high points per member:

Note Lucien matching a 70 man top alliance for points per member per tick. The "obvious" best strategy for winning therefore becomes: a shitty unallied planet alone in a tag, in a gal that gets a lot of incoming from bigger alliances. Note also that Lucien's ratio against a top alliance is about 50-60.

Capping thus becomes "sensible" in that the point is to reward team work, not playing alone.
I think it's obvious fairly quickly that we need to have some cap, even if it might be slightly higher than the 2x. Some investigation to see the reasonable relationships between say a #1 alliance and a #10 alliance at round end might be worthwhile to see if something around 3x might be acceptable.
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Unread 11 Aug 2010, 19:46   #16
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Re: Alliance Points System

hm....seems that testing things ingame before they are used is useful.

more of the same please appoco
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Unread 11 Aug 2010, 20:01   #17
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Re: Alliance Points System

I think the system itself is an interesting idea but deciding the metric to measure the scoring leads to a few conundrums. I don't think APS should replace the normal counted scoring system for official ranking, but instead use it as a measure of relative tactical prowess. Not sure if including default actions such as routine defense is an event that should contribute to scoring and would make manipulation of the system easier. Think such a system would serve best to measure relative offense capabilities between alliances of variable score and member size.

I tried to come up with a few formulas that would not produce radically outlandish outliers for scenarios of large alliances against solo alliances but decided we need a proper mathematician to address such a problem.

For the sake of forgoing arguments over the metrics being discussed, I'm going to call my alternative AQS (Alliance Quality Scoring) rather than APS.

I decided on trying to measure three metrics: (1) The skill of the land (XP) (2) The difference in average score of the alliances (3) The difference in counted score of the alliances.

The following is closest formula that I so far found that produced relatively normalized results:

AQS = XP * {[ln(opponent_alliance_average_score) - ln(your_alliance_average_score)] * [ln(opponent_alliance_counted_score)-ln(your_alliance_counted_score)] * 2}

(pseudo-english) AQS = XP * {difference of natural logs of avg scores} * {difference of natural logs of counted scores} * 2

Example 1:
Alliance Alpha (80 members, Avg Score 300k, Score 18M)
Allaince Beta (50 members, Avg Score 280k, Score 14M)
XP=500 (constant variable of XP assumed for all test cases)

AQS=[500]*{[ln(300000)-ln(280000)]*[ln(18000000)-ln(14000000)]}*2
AQS=[500]*{[12.6115377536-12.5425448822]*[16.7058823159-16.4545678876]}*2
AQS=[500]*{[0.0689928714]*[0.2513144283]}*2
AQS=[500]*{0.0173389040327}*2
AQS=[500]*{0.03467780806}
AQS=[17.33890403]

Example 2:
Alliance Alpha (80 members, Avg Score 300k, 18M score)
Alliance Gamma (1 members, Avg Score 260k, 260k score)
XP=500 (constant variable of XP assumed for all test cases)

AQS=[500]*{[ln(300000)-ln(260000)]*[ln(18000000)-ln(260000)]}*2
AQS=[500]*{[12.6115377536-12.46843691]*[16.7058823159-12.46843691]}*2
AQS=[500]*{[0.1431008436]*[4.2374454059]}*2
AQS=[500]*{0.606382012293}*2
AQS=[500]*{1.21276402458}
AQS=[606.38201229]

As you can see from two dramatically different examples, the difference in AQS outcome between this two test cases is only a factor of 34.972338 (35x bonus for solo man alliance). This was my best solution so far with limited test case scenarios but I thought it was fairly balanced enough to merit discussion.
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Unread 11 Aug 2010, 20:33   #18
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Re: Alliance Points System

Dude. Just use a hard cap. :|
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Unread 11 Aug 2010, 20:36   #19
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Re: Alliance Points System

And find something better to do with your time
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Unread 11 Aug 2010, 21:56   #20
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Re: Alliance Points System

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
And find something better to do with your time
lol, I can identify with this sentiment but there is only so much to do between ticks :P

--------------------------

The problem with my first formula is some conditions would produce negative AQS values, so I eliminated subtraction from the formula and applied division to produce ratios of the natural logs (did I lose you yet?)... end result is a equation that under the 9 test cases I applied it to appears to produce results within a factor of +/-1 of the original value. So applying a test condition of XP=500, test scenarios produced results between 0-1000.

For normal circumstances I think the following formula would apply most uniformly though the solo tag players will disagree.

-------------------------- (full details in pastebin) --> pastebin.com/6PFrTz12

#
Alliance Quality Scoring
#
AQS=[XP]*{[ln(target_ally_avg_score)/ln(your_ally_avg_score)]*[ln(target_ally_counted_score)/(your_ally_counted_score)]^2}
#
----------------
#
Notes: Eliminate subtraction to reduce negative AQS scenarios. Combination of division and natural logs produces ratios closer to 1.
#
----------------
#
Test Case Conditions:
#
----------------
#
Example 1A: (AQS=521)
#
Alliance Alpha (80 members, Avg Score 300k, 18M score)
#
Allaince Beta (50 members, Avg Score 280k, 14M score)
#
XP=500
#

#
Example 1B: (AQS=480)
#
Allaince Beta (50 members, Avg Score 280k, 14M score)
#
Alliance Alpha (80 members, Avg Score 300k, 18M score)
#
XP=500
#

#
Example 2A: (AQS=918)
#
Alliance Alpha (80 members, Avg Score 300k, 18M score)
#
Alliance Gamma (1 members, Avg Score 260k, 260k score)
#
XP=500
#

#
Example 2B: (AQS=272)
#
Alliance Gamma (1 members, Avg Score 260k, 260k score)
#
Alliance Alpha (80 members, Avg Score 300k, 18M score)
#
XP=500
#

#
Example 3: (AQS=492)
#
Alliance Alpha (80 members, Avg Score 300k, 18M score)
#
Alliance Delta (79 members, Avg Score 320k, 19M score)
#
XP=500
#

#
Example 4A: (AQS=611)
#
Alliance Alpha (80 members, Avg Score 300k, 18M score)
#
Alliance Theta (20 members, Avg Score 240k, 4.8M score)
#
XP=500
#

#
Example 4B: (AQS=409)
#
Alliance Theta (20 members, Avg Score 240k, 4.8M score)
#
Alliance Alpha (80 members, Avg Score 300k, 18M score)
#
XP=500
#
----------------
#
Result Tallying:
#
1A: AQS=[521.075479966]
#
1B: AQS=[479.776941366]
#
2A: AQS=[918.325999059]
#
2B: AQS=[272.234479100]
#
3A: AQS=[491.733535453]
#
4A: AQS=[611.039397113]
#
4B: AQS=[409.138921647]
#
----------------
#
Notes: Factor of outmost outliers in 2A/2B is only 3.37329056222; All results are within a factor of +/-1 of the original value (500) [0-1000].
#
-------------------------- (full details in pastebin) --> pastebin.com/6PFrTz12
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Unread 12 Aug 2010, 15:10   #21
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Re: Alliance Points System

Wow. I didn't think it was possible to come up with such a vastly over complex (possible) solution and still think that it's a good solution.
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Unread 12 Aug 2010, 16:10   #22
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Re: Alliance Points System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Those numbers, while interesting, aren't truly valuable.[...]
I do fully agree with your post and thank you for providing even more detailed numbers than what I could pull from the top of my head with regards to experience values from previous rounds.

My whole purpose was to show an extreme example and outline things to consider when judging about a cap. I should probably have skipped the part containing my own thoughts in there to make that more clear.
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Unread 12 Aug 2010, 22:48   #23
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Re: Alliance Points System

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Originally Posted by ellonweb View Post
Wow. I didn't think it was possible to come up with such a vastly over complex (possible) solution and still think that it's a good solution.
You have to define good because it can be a very subjective opinion based on a poor mathematical model with arbitrary limits with no grounding other than popular opinion or you can formulate a uniform mathematical model with no arbitrary limits that produces uniform results without bias.
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Unread 12 Aug 2010, 23:12   #24
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Re: Alliance Points System

Because your suggestion isn't arbitrary and subjective at all. Just because you give it a number doesn't make it objective. Also, you just got a 3.4. See, it's science.
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Unread 14 Aug 2010, 02:26   #25
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Re: Alliance Points System

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Because your suggestion isn't arbitrary and subjective at all. Just because you give it a number doesn't make it objective. Also, you just got a 3.4. See, it's science.
I thought I was being on topic as most in the thread had already voiced opinion at having the scale capped somewhere between 2-3x the scoring, I provided one example of a model that would produce such a result without artificial caps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
I think it's obvious fairly quickly that we need to have some cap, even if it might be slightly higher than the 2x. Some investigation to see the reasonable relationships between say a #1 alliance and a #10 alliance at round end might be worthwhile to see if something around 3x might be acceptable.
Like he said.

The suggested AQS formula is easy to scale with one small change, I only squared the portion in brackets, you could eliminate the exponent to tighten the scaling, or raise the exponent to expand it. Cubing or raising to the nth power using the same formula could be used to dynamically adjust the formula until satisfactory balance is found.

AQS(^2)=[XP]*{[ln(target_ally_avg_score)/ln(your_ally_avg_score)]*[ln(target_ally_counted_score)/(your_ally_counted_score)]}^2

To tighten the scale, chop off the ^2

AQS=[XP]*[ln(target_ally_avg_score)/ln(your_ally_avg_score)]*[ln(target_ally_counted_score)/(your_ally_counted_score)]

To expand the scale, change ^2 to ^3 or greater.

AQS(^3)={[XP]*[ln(target_ally_avg_score)/ln(your_ally_avg_score)]*[ln(target_ally_counted_score)/(your_ally_counted_score)]}^3

Arguably, it might also be easier to implement a single formula over devising an entire methodology of arbitrary point assignment on mediocre tasks any good alliance is going to perform anyways. More useful to measure offense over defense, imo.

---Example 1A/B with Scaling---
1A: AQS(^1)= 510
1A: AQS(^2)= 521
1A: AQS(^3)= 531
1A: AQS(^4)= 543
---
1B: AQS(^1)= 490
1B: AQS(^2)= 480
1B: AQS(^3)= 470
1B: AQS(^4)= 460
---Example 2A/B with Scaling---
2A: AQS(^1)= 678
2A: AQS(^2)= 918
2A: AQS(^2.2)= 976
2A: AQS(^3)= 1245
2A: AQS(^4)= 1687
---
2B: AQS(^1)= 369
2B: AQS(^2)= 272
2B: AQS(^2.2)= 256
2B: AQS(^3)= 201
2B: AQS(^4)= 148
------------------------

Anyways, point being I was trying to demonstrate on the first example is two allies similar to counted score and avg score will retain relatively close AQS scoring with a variety of exponents thrown at it.

In my second test case, I illustrated the scoring of a large alliance against that of a solo one man alliance and in this case, scaling the exponent variable can greatly effect the range of AQS scoring. In fact, raising the exponent to the next whole integer may produce too much of the desired effect so I threw in a fractional exponent of 2.2 for illustration.

Point was, I haven't seen any other alternative systems thrown around Mz, perhaps you'd like to share yours?
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Unread 14 Aug 2010, 11:18   #26
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Re: Alliance Points System

It's been mentioned several times in this thread. First by jester, then by me, then by Appoco, then me again and finally JBG. KISS: cap on alliance ratio at 2x. Or 3x. Or any number you wish.
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Unread 14 Aug 2010, 13:57   #27
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Re: Alliance Points System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
It's been mentioned several times in this thread. First by jester, then by me, then by Appoco, then me again and finally JBG. KISS: cap on alliance ratio at 2x. Or 3x. Or any number you wish.
I think four important questions are:
1) what should the ratio be
on the assumption that alliance scores won't change drastically, some of the historic data shows that generally it's around the 7th-8th placed alliance that's half the top alliance score at the end of the round

2) what should the ratios be of? alliance score, counted alliance score, alliance points?

3) how much will playing styles change if we change the alliance rankings to this points system? Will medium/low planets in the top alliances become more targetted, and the bigger planets less so?

4) what else should gain points? should scans, covert ops, etc give points? should you lose points for losing ships or roids? the points system is meant to recognise "good" alliance actions - what should these actions be, beyond basic attack and defence?

Also, to note that I'm pretty sure there's still a few bugs in the system, so I need to go look at that (recall points don't appear to work properly, and apparently every alliance that's landed on another alliance captured asteroids).
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Unread 14 Aug 2010, 15:21   #28
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Re: Alliance Points System

Alliances TOTAL value, anything else is pointless and doesn't show the true state of alliance power.
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Unread 14 Aug 2010, 15:29   #29
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Re: Alliance Points System

I think those are all valid questions that should be answered, but I would first like to ask a couple of my own: what do you want to achieve with the AP system? What do you want to measure?
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Unread 15 Aug 2010, 12:43   #30
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Re: Alliance Points System

Not really arsed about reading everything, however:

There's a slight flaw in this system, as it gives out points for defensive battles fought. If, say, an alliance defended well and few if any fleets landed, then they'd get less points for it, meaning where as this style of growing value and holding on to your own works well with the old scoring system, it would hamper points growth in the new system.

Naturally, you might say this is the direction in which you want the game to go. However, I suspect it was quite unintended to create a tactic where by xp-whoring became the best strategy around.

Do we really need a repeat of rnd16?
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Unread 15 Aug 2010, 13:21   #31
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Re: Alliance Points System

you get points for making an attacker recall before landing. 10 points.
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Unread 15 Aug 2010, 15:08   #32
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Re: Alliance Points System

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you get points for making an attacker recall before landing. 10 points.
Less than for having him land on 1 ship.
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Unread 15 Aug 2010, 18:22   #33
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Re: Alliance Points System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I think those are all valid questions that should be answered, but I would first like to ask a couple of my own: what do you want to achieve with the AP system? What do you want to measure?
The APS is setup in recognition that ranking an alliance in terms of the individual planets may be the wrong approach, and so I'd like to take a different approach based on the alliance actions as a whole relative to other alliances may be better.

Of course creating a system to measure how good an alliance is (comparatively) means that that's how alliances are now defined. I guess a better question is what should we make an alliance want to be? Should we reward covert ops, waves, constructions etc, and make it something more like value? I'm currently tending towards a more pro-dynamic alliance, trying to reward those alliances that hit higher and those that attack and defend more, rather than those that don't.
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Unread 15 Aug 2010, 18:30   #34
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Re: Alliance Points System

So is at least part of the goal to allow smaller alliances to compete? Because if points are granted based on a formula that compares relative value of alliances, there will be a significant advantage to remaining somewhat smaller.
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Unread 15 Aug 2010, 18:32   #35
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Re: Alliance Points System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowch View Post
So is at least part of the goal to allow smaller alliances to compete? Because if points are granted based on a formula that compares relative value of alliances, there will be a significant advantage to remaining somewhat smaller.
currently it's relative score. I think that part of the goal was to make it more sizeless, so that (comparitively) smaller alliances can still take part. That way, the alliance limit is less of an issue - it's more who you want to play with, how you organise yourself, etc.

Of course, I didn't think it was going to go so far as the 1 man alliance stuff
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Unread 16 Aug 2010, 05:38   #36
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Re: Alliance Points System

AP = alliance xp?
/me likes your thinking yes.
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Unread 16 Aug 2010, 07:27   #37
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Re: Alliance Points System

AP(S) = Alliance Points (System). It's a way of ranking alliances.
Currently it is closer to XP than other things though.
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Unread 18 Aug 2010, 12:56   #38
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Re: Alliance Points System

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You have to define good because it can be a very subjective opinion based on a poor mathematical model with arbitrary limits with no grounding other than popular opinion or you can formulate a uniform mathematical model with no arbitrary limits that produces uniform results without bias.
No I don't. You're the one that thinks your suggestion is good, otherwise you wouldn't have posted it. I was making the point that it's clearly not good.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 18 Aug 2010 at 13:36.
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Unread 18 Aug 2010, 13:36   #39
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Re: Alliance Points System

Alright, I've given the APS system some thought over the last week or so and I've decided that I don't like it. Here's why.

Note: because the mechanisms for attaining APS and XP are pretty much identical in all the important ways and because XP has been around for much longer and thus has more available examples, for the remainder of this post, when I say "XP", please read "XP and APS".

In my view, the goal of Planetarion is stealing and holding onto roids, thus increasing your income and making it easier/possible to steal and hold onto more roids. XP departs from that basic goal and instead rewards stealing roids from certain planets and alliances more than others.

In theory, this means that strong players gather more XP and thus that high XP planets have good fleets. After all, generally speaking, you get XP by stealing roids from high value players and to steal roids from high value players, you need to have a good fleet and to cooperate with your alliance.

However, XP does not actually measure military strength. Quite the opposite, in fact; ever since r16, XP planets are commonly regarded as weak (especially defensively) one-trick ponies that contribute little to the overall strength of their alliance. Winning rounds on XP is now (correctly) viewed as impossible, even disregarding the influence of MT stats and fortressing.

This results in a strange dichotomy in which there are ways of gaining a large amount of score that are actually bad for the development of your planet in the long run, because the artificial nature of XP rewards players for doing the wrong thing.

The only way this can be avoided is by making sure that the XP of a planet accurately reflects the combat strength of same. I have 2 objections to even bothering to try to make that happen.

First, as easy as 'balancing' sounds, it is actually very hard to do. XP has been around for 28(!) rounds and still does not work correctly. Up to and including round 16 it was much too strong (changing the goal of PA and reducing cooperation and weakening intra-alliance bonds) and ever since then, despite more tweaks than I cared to count, it has been too weak and, as said above, encourages strategies that yield short-term results but are counterproductive in the long-term.

Second, even if we manage to balance it correctly, even if XP accurately reflects combat strength, it wouldn't do PA any good, because then it actually mimics that other part of score that we have: value, which is already a good way of measuring combat strength.

The last couple of months I've mentioned a few times that I'm in favour of removing XP altogether, but this is the first time I've explained why. APS is basically XP for alliances, so everything I said about XP also applies to APS.

There is only one aspect of XP that I like: it is non-removable. That's something I'd like to preserve. If XP were removed, I'd want to change score to measure how many resources a planet, galaxy or alliance has spent, regardless of current fleet size or roid count. In such a system, value would measure how much the fleet of a planet, galaxy or alliance is worth (and nothing else). I think Heartless originally came up with this suggestion, and I wholeheartedly endorse it.
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Unread 18 Aug 2010, 13:52   #40
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Re: Alliance Points System

You wholeheartedly endorse a heartless suggestion?

I'll agree on most of what Mz just said, except I do not like Heartless suggestion from before. It removes the penalties for too many kinds of behaviour. Say your in a tight spot as an alliance, you know they're coming for you and you'd need to find a solution quickly which allows you to reduce incs, what do you do?

Well, you crash your fleets on opposing alliance middle level players, reducing their ability to target you. This also takes you out of the range for the opposing top planets to hit, so you can sit safely on your roids(and income), while having neutralized your greatest contenders.

That's not a game I'd like to play.
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Unread 18 Aug 2010, 14:00   #41
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Re: Alliance Points System

The bash formula is both score- and value-based, plus losing value is still punished because it reduces your ability to grow.
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Unread 18 Aug 2010, 14:21   #42
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Re: Alliance Points System

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
The bash formula is both score- and value-based, plus losing value is still punished because it reduces your ability to grow.
It doesn't. The easiest way to get roids is by hitting as low on your bashlimit as possible, so by shedding your value and holding your roids, you get to fight the utter noobs and inactives for their roids, while your enemy is forced to fight better players higher up the ranks.
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Unread 19 Aug 2010, 01:43   #43
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Re: Alliance Points System

rofl, i gotta say that is for sure the most cowardly thing ive ever heard anyone admit. BOOOO!!!
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Unread 19 Aug 2010, 05:26   #44
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Re: Alliance Points System

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Alright, I've given the APS system some thought over the last week or so and I've decided that I don't like it. Here's why.

Note: because the mechanisms for attaining APS and XP are pretty much identical in all the important ways and because XP has been around for much longer and thus has more available examples, for the remainder of this post, when I say "XP", please read "XP and APS".

In my view, the goal of Planetarion is stealing and holding onto roids, thus increasing your income and making it easier/possible to steal and hold onto more roids. XP departs from that basic goal and instead rewards stealing roids from certain planets and alliances more than others.

In theory, this means that strong players gather more XP and thus that high XP planets have good fleets. After all, generally speaking, you get XP by stealing roids from high value players and to steal roids from high value players, you need to have a good fleet and to cooperate with your alliance.

However, XP does not actually measure military strength. Quite the opposite, in fact; ever since r16, XP planets are commonly regarded as weak (especially defensively) one-trick ponies that contribute little to the overall strength of their alliance. Winning rounds on XP is now (correctly) viewed as impossible, even disregarding the influence of MT stats and fortressing.

This results in a strange dichotomy in which there are ways of gaining a large amount of score that are actually bad for the development of your planet in the long run, because the artificial nature of XP rewards players for doing the wrong thing.

The only way this can be avoided is by making sure that the XP of a planet accurately reflects the combat strength of same. I have 2 objections to even bothering to try to make that happen.

First, as easy as 'balancing' sounds, it is actually very hard to do. XP has been around for 28(!) rounds and still does not work correctly. Up to and including round 16 it was much too strong (changing the goal of PA and reducing cooperation and weakening intra-alliance bonds) and ever since then, despite more tweaks than I cared to count, it has been too weak and, as said above, encourages strategies that yield short-term results but are counterproductive in the long-term.

Second, even if we manage to balance it correctly, even if XP accurately reflects combat strength, it wouldn't do PA any good, because then it actually mimics that other part of score that we have: value, which is already a good way of measuring combat strength.

The last couple of months I've mentioned a few times that I'm in favour of removing XP altogether, but this is the first time I've explained why. APS is basically XP for alliances, so everything I said about XP also applies to APS.

There is only one aspect of XP that I like: it is non-removable. That's something I'd like to preserve. If XP were removed, I'd want to change score to measure how many resources a planet, galaxy or alliance has spent, regardless of current fleet size or roid count. In such a system, value would measure how much the fleet of a planet, galaxy or alliance is worth (and nothing else). I think Heartless originally came up with this suggestion, and I wholeheartedly endorse it.
You are so wroooong! XP DO REWARD FIGHTING! XP DO REWARD LANDING ON A BIGGER PLANET, KEEPING THE GAME COMPETETIVE! XP DOES COURAGE FIGHTING PLAYERS ABOVE YOU and not just eat what is there below you. IT GIVES CHALLENCES AND IS THE BEST FEATURE PA EVER HAD. I am so quitting if u take away the only thing that is couragin to FIGHT instead of noob roid. What we can do is turn collected XP to goods like money, so you can actually use it in the future, instead of just increasing your score.

Its also not just about collecting roids, it should be also how u collect them and PA really need to introduce actual BATTLES to take place. ATTACKERS SALVAGE untill someone suggests anything better.

Thank you for reading and UNDERSTANDING!
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Unread 19 Aug 2010, 07:10   #45
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Re: Alliance Points System

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or if you're a blubbering fool. Please clarify.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 19 Aug 2010, 09:03   #46
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Re: Alliance Points System

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rofl, i gotta say that is for sure the most cowardly thing ive ever heard anyone admit. BOOOO!!!
Never been a fan of it myself, but it is true however. You're just less likely to encounter def if you 3fleet on smaller planets.
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Unread 19 Aug 2010, 09:03   #47
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Re: Alliance Points System

xp indeed encourages landing and actually it also encourages to claim a tad bigger planets from TP to get more score out of one`s attack.

but it also makes noobs to crashland 80% of their fleets for 3k xp and maybe 200k score boost, which kinda ruins their game imo.. as most ppl that have played this game for long time know that the thing that wins u the game is value.. noobs on the other hand dont know that and ruin it for em for a 1 time happiness from 200k score boost
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Unread 19 Aug 2010, 09:45   #48
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Re: Alliance Points System

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or if you're a blubbering fool. Please clarify.
So you didnt understand regardless how clearly I tried to tell you?
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Unread 19 Aug 2010, 11:11   #49
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Re: Alliance Points System

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Originally Posted by Ave View Post
So you didnt understand regardless how clearly I tried to tell you?
Exclamation marks and caps lock do not a clear post make. So no, I suppose I didn't. In fact, I think your post was batshit insane. I'll lift out some of the less crazy bits to comment on, though.

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Originally Posted by Ave View Post
What we can do is turn collected XP to goods like money, so you can actually use it in the future, instead of just increasing your score.
While an interesting idea, it's one in which the devil is in the details. Additionally, if done well, it takes a lot of effort to implement. My suggestion has no details and is easy to implement.

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Its also not just about collecting roids, it should be also how u collect them
If the goal of PA is collecting roids, then the best way of capping roids is rewarded. XP and APS muddy that picture by... No, you know what? I already said this in my post, which you failed to actually respond to in any meaningful fashion. Go and reread it.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 19 Aug 2010, 16:37   #50
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Re: Alliance Points System

Well how about more or simular xp for landing with no losses and a loss on the xp you gain if you loose ships landing,,30% ship loss =70% of the xp 50% loss only 50% of the xp.
Maybe that would show noobs the need to not loose ships.
On the actual alliance points system i think its good seems to suit brave alliances better
Less noob bashing the more noobs that might stay also
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