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Unread 21 Jul 2007, 19:32   #1
furball
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Multiple planets per account - a consolidation of ideas

Having looked through some old threads recently, I realised that Kal came up with this very idea a couple of months ago. I've actually grown to it now, so ignore my opposition to it in that thread.

My backing isn't quite along the lines of Tomkat's recent idea though, and for that reason I'll make my opinion quite clear.


My interest was sparked by JBG's post in TK's thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I like the exploration aspect of it myself. If you could introduce it into the game at the right level you could make it a viable alternative to conventional gameplay. So you have new researches which enable you to find new planets and then build up these as per normal (perhaps with some/a total degree of cross-over with researches. This would make it so it wouldn't be a huge advantage to have extra planets and wouldn't dick over the relative "inactives" wakey mentions but it still brings a new aspect to the game which could prove beneficial for both solo and alliance players.

Certainly I think this is something which deserves serious consideration.
If you want to see my response to that and the discussion that followed, clicky-clicky on the link to JBG's post above. It goes on for too long to just paste it into this thread.


As Kal said in his own thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
In Eve you can have multiple characters with one account. This is controlled becuase a) you cna only use one at a time, and b) only one can be researching at a time.

Round 22 will see some big changes to res/con/prod that would make that sort of thing more possible in PA.

So lets say each account was allowed 3 planets. What restrictions would we need? My ideas are:

1) Only one planet can be researching, constructing, or producing at any one time.
2) One planet cannot defend a planet that another is defending or vice versa (ship farming prevention)
3) One planet cannot attack another (roid farming prevention)

Another point would be: if we wanted to do this would we want to make res/con/prod a little quicker? Or the rounds a bit longer?
Would we also want to increase the alliance limit? or define alliance limit by account rather than planet?


NOTE: This is not currently planned for any round, it is merely an idea.
The interaction rules discussed are very similar to those suggested by Kal. I would further add that a new planet would be randomly placed in the universe and that it could never exile into the creator's galaxy.

To quote another needed interaction from Tomkat:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
4. You would not be permitted to scan, covert op, attack or defend any of your multiple accounts.

With those out of the way:



My proposal is that subject to a new branch of the research tree, and levels of population and capital (i.e. resources) yet to be determined, planets can 'find' new planets that would be created as any new planet - i.e. with 0 researches/constructions done, 0 roids, 72 hours of protection, etc. - just as if someone had started a new planet normally. Alternatively, the new planet could have some researches done (e.g. half the progress on each research tree of the initial planet). I'm very open to ideas.

From their one account, the player can then control both planets in-game as if they had two accounts. All that would be needed to switch planets is a 'switch' button as part of the left-hand menu. This may remind some oldies of the Alliance Hosting feature that was once in the game.


Advantages
  1. More planets in the game, meaning that there are targets for everyone, reducing the level of stagnation.
  2. One less reason to quit - if one of a player's planets is bashed back to the Stone Age, they can keep going with their other planet(s).
  3. People being allowed to try different techniques, which could encourage newbies to join as they won't be scared if they screw up. (stolen from Tomkat)
  4. Potentially reducing temptation for people to multi - although I can't imagine us being able to do a survey on this.

Disadvantages
  1. First and foremost, balancing it all. Extensive beta testing would be required, so much so that I'd like to see over 200 people playing such a beta for quite a few weeks.
  2. Increased power of successful multis (i.e. those with more than one account) - each account could have more than one planet.
  3. Need to ensure that the winner is not just the person with the most planets.


The first disadvantage, balancing, would require a lot of thought. We would need to go through every single feature of the game and analyse the proposal's effect on it. There would need to be a lot of tweaks to many of the pre-existing features that we currently take for granted (e.g. the length of a round). However, this is not an insurmountable problem.

The second disadvantage, multis, is one that the Multihunters already put in plenty of their time combating. I'm willing to take the risk.

The third disadvantage, the effect on the planet ranks, is controllable by choosing what is needed to start up a new planet. I suggest that the requirements in research/constructions/capital/population are such that it would be quite a gamble for a planet aiming for the top 10 to start up a new planet and thus take a hit in resources. This is an issue for balancing which would require a great deal of thought.


It's at this point that I'm going to end this thread and open it up to discussion. Sorry for length, but there's a lot of issues that needed to be covered in the OP.
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Unread 22 Jul 2007, 01:33   #2
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Re: Multiple planets per account - a consolidation of ideas

1. There should be a limit to the number of planets you can have
2. Your ranking should be based on the average of all your planets scores
3. There should be a way to conquer the planets of other players (except the home planet ofc)
4. Extra planets shouldn't be normal, habitable planets, but hostile worlds with extra resources, where you can build mining facilities, amp/dist, and base ships built at your home planet (only 1 slot).
5. Why not reintroduce PDS to defend these outposts.
6. If you really want normal planets, then there should be possibilities of revolutions with the local population chosing:
a) to break away from you
b) to join another player (who would have used a special cov op to turn the local government)
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Unread 22 Jul 2007, 01:40   #3
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Re: Multiple planets per account - a consolidation of ideas

Sorry but you seem to have missed the point of the proposal: that players can have multiple independent planets in the same universe, and that the created planets are exactly the same as an original planet. The only limit on these created planets is how they interact with the player's other planet(s).
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Unread 22 Jul 2007, 04:12   #4
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Re: Multiple planets per account - a consolidation of ideas

The entire balance of the game would need redesigning.

Regardless of how interesting the idea of multiple planets are, how long would it take to design, balance and fully implement such changes if it was decided to be a good thing? How many new players would such a design changing decision attract?
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Unread 22 Jul 2007, 04:47   #5
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Re: Multiple planets per account - a consolidation of ideas

I dont think this is an idea that needs to be or should be followed up, sure it would be interesting to run more planets but in the end, this isnt something that people would signup in huge numbers to expirience, and I also think it would annoy more people than attract new people.
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Unread 22 Jul 2007, 10:50   #6
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Re: Multiple planets per account - a consolidation of ideas

Quote:
Originally Posted by GReaper
The entire balance of the game would need redesigning.

Regardless of how interesting the idea of multiple planets are, how long would it take to design, balance and fully implement such changes if it was decided to be a good thing? How many new players would such a design changing decision attract?
It would take a lot of behind the scenes work, much as there was before the advent of PaX in Round 10. We have a pre-existing development group full of able minds, and with a bit of publicity more people will join it. You could thrash this sort of thing out in a couple of days sitting around a table, so I guess via forums it'd take a month or so to work out. Let's push that out further and say that it'd take an entire round to flesh out, balance, and code.

It's difficult to say how many new players this would attract. I suspect a newsletter out to everyone on the mailing list explaining the changes would get people back to try it, but I don't think you can really know until you actually go for it. This is the problem with having a volunteer PA Team under Jolt as opposed to paid creators who have nothing else to work on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I dont think this is an idea that needs to be or should be followed up, sure it would be interesting to run more planets but in the end, this isnt something that people would signup in huge numbers to expirience, and I also think it would annoy more people than attract new people.
Can you explain why you don't think that people would be interested in this, and why you think it would annoy people more than attract them?


The problem at the moment is that Planetarion is stagnant. Things go on as ever but little is really achieved. The micromanagement/population ideas have been implemented piecemeal rather than as part of one grand project - yet we need this sort of grand project to spark the game again and attract old players back.

As I said recently elsewhere on the forums:

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I call these changes "radical" because they, well, are. But so were the changes made in PaX, and most of those turned out alright. In fact, those changes have preserved Planetarion up until the present day. However, the current version of the game, as modified in 2003, is now dated and needs a re-think.

This idea is a way of doing that.
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Unread 22 Jul 2007, 16:08   #7
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Re: Multiple planets per account - a consolidation of ideas

Maybe it's just me, but i don't find the prospect of having to manage 9 fleets each night or having to coordinate defence with different galaxies in case my 3 planets happen to get mass waves of incomings very appealing.
Not to mention the fact that, while the number of planets would increase, the number of players stays the same, and the work load on officers, DCs, scanners and HC would be much greater.
I think there is a limit on the complexity a game can have without sacrificing it's playability. I think this idea might actually backfire.
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Unread 22 Jul 2007, 16:54   #8
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Re: Multiple planets per account - a consolidation of ideas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I dont think this is an idea that needs to be or should be followed up, sure it would be interesting to run more planets but in the end, this isnt something that people would signup in huge numbers to expirience, and I also think it would annoy more people than attract new people.
I fear I can provide a little objective evidence that you may be wrong here. A few months ago I played another browser based game called Tribal Wars where the sole objective was to farm yourself to a position of dominance and then extend your control over neighbouring villages by conquering them. It was an offshoot of a similar, space-based affair entitled O-Game. Both of these games were averaging over 50,000 active players and well over 5,000 paid active players. Per World/Realm/Universe, with multiple worlds co-existing at once.

From my experience as both a shit O-Game planet and a top Tribal Wars village the main reasons were simplicity and the subsequent lack of community restrictions. These are the very same two things that Planetarion lacks despite being a far better game in most other areas. My dog could have run a good village in Tribal Wars with a little training for example.

All that being said I really do think we should focus on making the game we have more accessible and less restrictive. I personally can't think of anything more annoying to most players than artificial restrictions that serve no real purpose other than to allow meaningless tags to exist and compare scores with one another. Especially to new players who have no concept of why these tags are "important" and the "historical significance" behind them.
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Unread 23 Jul 2007, 21:39   #9
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Re: Multiple planets per account - a consolidation of ideas

Would your multiple planets be allowed to hit members of the same alliance (different home planets controlled by different players, but in the same tag) at the same time?

And would this be a good or bad thing...

Good as it could encourage wars, and on a more grandiose scale. This is after all a wargame

Bad as its all relative. If alliance A has 20 active awesome players and alliance B has 20 active awesome players, the liklehood of war between the two alliances would not change whether they each have 1 planet, 3, or 400. IT would just mean the better players / allies have more resources at their disposal to hit the smaller guys

However it would allow for greater fleet diversification, so regardless of above comment it may encourage fighting.

It's certainly an interesting idea, and one that would require a lot of thought, and no1 should be foolish enough to think this idea is bad (or good for that matter) without giving it a great deal of consideration as to the cause and effect.

p.s why is every1 so obsessed with getting the old players to return!
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Unread 23 Jul 2007, 22:07   #10
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Re: Multiple planets per account - a consolidation of ideas

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkHeart
Would your multiple planets be allowed to hit members of the same alliance (different home planets controlled by different players, but in the same tag) at the same time?
It's a difficult one. However, if we didn't ban it then we'd be opening ourselves up to in-alliance ship-farming. It therefore strikes me as necessary to ban any of the planets of Player 1 from attacking any of the planets of Player 2 where one of his (Player 1's) planets is in the same alliance as one of the planets of Player 2.


Frankly I imagine that alliances wouldn't allow their members to have planets in multiple alliances, since most alliances demand loyalty from their members if nothing else. Further, I'd like to abolish the alliance limit anyway (a separate issue for discussion) so the introduction of multiple planets wouldn't affect that per se.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkHeart
However it would allow for greater fleet diversification, so regardless of above comment it may encourage fighting.
It'd certainly make the military side of the game more interesting - what's to lose

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkHeart
It's certainly an interesting idea, and one that would require a lot of thought, and no1 should be foolish enough to think this idea is bad (or good for that matter) without giving it a great deal of consideration as to the cause and effect.


p.s why is every1 so obsessed with getting the old players to return!
I mention it because these are people who once enjoyed playing Planetarion, and then left for whatever reason. It'd be nice to try to get them back because that'd be a bonus for the community. However, if we managed to get a lot of new players in then that would be equally good.
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Unread 23 Jul 2007, 23:42   #11
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Re: Multiple planets per account - a consolidation of ideas

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
It's a difficult one. However, if we didn't ban it then we'd be opening ourselves up to in-alliance ship-farming. It therefore strikes me as necessary to ban any of the planets of Player 1 from attacking any of the planets of Player 2 where one of his (Player 1's) planets is in the same alliance as one of the planets of Player 2. Frankly I imagine that alliances wouldn't allow their members to have planets in multiple alliances, since most alliances demand loyalty from their members if nothing else.
To be honest, I didn't mean this perspective (Though having re-read what I typed the wording didnt make it completly clear what i meant)...What I mean is would Player A (in tag A), though not allowed to use his 3 planets to interact at the same planet, would he be allowed to use his 3 planets to attack 3 different members of Alliance B, as in all 3 home planets of his 3 target planets are in the same alliance as each other. Or would this be considered illegal as you are using all your planets to interact against the same alliance (allthough on different planets). Further, could you use your 3 different planets to attack the 3 different planets of 1 person.

Though the wording has confused the matter it has certainly given rise to an intresting thought from yourself, and whilst i concur multil alliance multi planet ppl would be unlikely, there would certainly be benefits ie where two different allies....ally, you could make sure all your multi planet players tag up a planet to each tag, and thus be able to defend in tag (for whichever alliance that planet is tagged too) at reduced travel times.
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Unread 24 Jul 2007, 00:09   #12
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Re: Multiple planets per account - a consolidation of ideas

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkHeart
To be honest, I didn't mean this perspective (Though having re-read what I typed the wording didnt make it completly clear what i meant)...What I mean is would Player A (in tag A), though not allowed to use his 3 planets to interact at the same planet, would he be allowed to use his 3 planets to attack 3 different members of Alliance B, as in all 3 home planets of his 3 target planets are in the same alliance as each other. Or would this be considered illegal as you are using all your planets to interact against the same alliance (allthough on different planets). Further, could you use your 3 different planets to attack the 3 different planets of 1 person.
This is the issue that has given me the greatest problems so far, in particular in relation to gal raiding. I'm not keen on the idea of one person raiding a galaxy by themselves, but nor do I want to limit players in what they can do with their planets more than necessary. For example, I'd quite enjoy seeing a player with 3 average planets using specialist fleet compositions from 3 different races to roid a top 100 player.

I think I would allow players to attack planets in the same alliance - and probably in the same galaxy as well since everyone in that galaxy has the ability to have multiple planets.


It should go without saying that I'd abolish the support planet rule at the soonest possible opportunity, given that I'm in favour of abolishing the alliance limit. This would mean that there wouldn't be any 'interaction' problems where they're not hard-coded. However, that is a discussion for another day and I'd prefer to keep this thread on topic if possible.
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