eXilition and their questionable tactics

[monkeyrand]

now who is being pedantic?

That uis just being childish making a comment about a comment that was mad to show that most of the time APA make there own decisions with no regard to anyone except them sleves. Maybe once they mad a decision that just heppend to conincide wuth someone else.

i bet ND has done this before but of course you would never admit it as it it would render your arguments pointless

[Kaisto]

Ahem.. There is a ting about taking statements just a tad too literal... When notsure says 99.99% it is a figure of speech, you should know that. It is not like she has sat down and calculated the exact percentage, like some geeks who post here probably would do
When I say a few occasions, I mean a FEW occasions. I belive I gave an estimate further up if ppl can be bothered to use the mouse wheel.

[Avenged]

alright try 99% of them originally selected by us

with 55 days, an average of 30 target a night thats 1650 targets so far this round

which means that 1% is 60 targets, this is more then exi have offered us - the facts are straight, its about 99.43 which we have selected...

and of the remaining % it was our choice of whether to attack or not!

Get real! Get over it!

[Avenged]

Originally Posted by Kaisto

Ahem.. It is not like she has sat down and calculated the exact percentage, like some geeks who post here probably would do

oi!!!

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Avenged

As i feel some of our members have already outlined, yet again Wakeys intel is inacurate!

We have attacked some targets to aid EXI and we are in a NAP with them, the outines of the NAP we have arranges are that we will assist them if it helps us in our aims to gain ranks on the table and they will help us for the same reason, without a shaddow of doubt it is easier to cover more targets if twice as many people are attacking them.

But i would also like to make it clear to everyone to take what is posted above with a pinch of salt, i feel its a case of chinese whispers and inacurate intel. And would once again like to stress that all target chosen for our alliance attacks are chosen by us, we are not under the control of EXI and never will be!

"Once again", are you refering back to the post on the APA/Coven war thread. If so I suggest you go give another look at that because as Nef clearly points out the evidence (ie the db dumps) back me up and discredit your claims.

And on this issue did I say that you go out and attack every target they suggest, I think you find I did say that they were suggesting targets which is exactly whats going on. It really doesnt matter if your taking all of them or not, they are trying to use you and everyone else they have offered this to as a smoke screen. The point is they are treating you and the other small alliances like mugs. They suugest you targets if you hit them it ties up the defence and lets them walk in later for easy roids

And I'm surpised at how defensive APA are being. If the post was critising their tactics then I could understand it but infact it makes allowences for them being so shortsighted, we've all been caught off guard at some point due to be flatered by a big alliance or player offering us something and we failed to grasp the real reason why they would be offering us such deals. It really is as if they do have something to hide

Originally Posted by various

Its a valid tactic

I never said it wasnt actually valid, its within the rules so it is valid BUT being valid doesnt stop it being questionable. Its like in RL there are things which are legal but which arent socially acceptable and from atleast my pov using whats potentially the games future top players like this doesnt strike me as being something the PA society does or should find acceptable. The problem is often tactics like this are swept under the carpit and this allows for other people to then fall foul of it and this is exactly why I posted this. Rather than sitting on the info like I could I wanted to bring it to light in the hope the smaller alliances wise up and become a bit more street wise. They have enough issues to deal with without being taken for a ride due to their lack of experiance.

[Snurx]

Can't APA decide who is treating APA as mugs? They might do that to you, but that does not mean they do it to APA, does it?

[wakey]

Originally Posted by SteInMetz

There has gone 55 days, and 99.99% of the attacks are picked by you, well Kaisto says that on some occasions you have gotten your targets of EX..

One of you are lieing, or you are contradicting yourselves...

What they are actually forgetting is that the deal allows them to be used as flak EVEN if the targets arent suggested. The deal requires all alliance attacks to be run by the other party so that alliance members can be declared off limits. Now I wonder how Exil manage to come in a few ticks later after the defence has been drawn even if the targets were choosen by the Alliance themselves. They are clearly using intel about when the smaller alliances are launching attacks on galaxies that aid their 'war' and then tagging along.

[SteInMetz]

Originally Posted by Avenged

alright try 99% of them originally selected by us

with 55 days, an average of 30 target a night thats 1650 targets so far this round

which means that 1% is 60 targets, this is more then exi have offered us - the facts are straight, its about 99.43 which we have selected...

and of the remaining % it was our choice of whether to attack or not!

Get real! Get over it!

Then again lets estimate that you picked galaxies atleast 15 of the days, 2 galaxies,
that is 30 targets, then again you gotta do 15*30=450, so that means 450-40=410 targets less from your calculations.. this is just speculations, and im just being picky, but i think you got what i meant..

Basicly helping out the winning block, by flaking for them sometimes, is something that should be considered as wrong imo..
But as said many times before, im nobody, my opinion doesnt count.. i just like to voice it.

[Squidly]

Originally Posted by Snurx

Can't APA decide who is treating APA as mugs?

something about leading a horse to water but can't make them drink etc?

Snurx is right though... it is their choice who they really want to associate with. Whatever reputation they get from associating with ex will possibly hit them in later rounds. Outblown cheating/VNC stuff from past threads is one thing to complain about... but simple choice of association isn't really something anyone here can blast. I mean, while we're on the subject, why don't we start blasting LCH and cronies for their past ties to exi. Kind of a moot series of complaints I would have thought? Gotta love them politics.

But, look on the bright side guys if Exi have to resort to 'convincing' as many people as they can to go up against SiNNd and the rest, then we must be doing something right

*shrugs*

[Avenged]

you all seem to be focusing on the benifits that these random attacks have had to EXI

havent you noticed the score jumps in our alliance, the targets we attack also have less incs!

[Avenged]

Originally Posted by Squidly

Whatever reputation they get from associating with ex will possibly hit them in later rounds

We are and always will stay the freindly crazy alliance, nothing can stop that, its a quality we require at recruitment level!

And as far as rep goes within the game, each round is a new, grudges are rarely carried accross

[The_Mad_Keg]

Hmmm as Demi God has said he mentioned this back in the APA Coven war thread. With this can we really believe u didnt have Exils help hitting Coven?? and its already all going against you APA some of ure members will have less gal defence due to exil wiping the gal members out. a gal with 2 apa bc's no less was hit last night by Exil. and denying it is pointless, people have the exil coords, logs from said gal chan backs it up. along with all the inc coords of that night. the fact hc's are coming on and saying they dont know about this either shows a ridiculous amount of lying or a lack of knowledge within the alliance. i had resepct for APA until all this bollox happend.
fight ure own fights do it urself.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Squidly

Stuff

I dont think anyone is really attacking APA for their actions. After all we can all be taken in, if it hadnt been for an unconnected SiNND message I myself was very close to reluctantly agreeing to be in the same boat and I'm one of the most experianced players in this game and have seen this type of thing many times before. So ofc they will be tempted to take it and no-one can blame them, the only time people are being negative towards them seems to be when they try and justify Exils tactic.

Originally Posted by Avenged

you all seem to be focusing on the benifits that these random attacks have had to EXI

havent you noticed the score jumps in our alliance, the targets we attack also have less incs!

Yes your gaining score reguluarry but its hardly blazing a trail. Your in that constant 2-2.5% growth level that youd expect any alliance to be in with a resonable attack and a resonable amount of incoming. Ofc maybe the gains were higher on the days you take their targets but I hardly see a major bonus tbh

[notsure]

Originally Posted by SteInMetz

There has gone 55 days, and 99.99% of the attacks are picked by you, well Kaisto says that on some occasions you have gotten your targets of EX..

One of you are lieing, or you are contradicting yourselves...

FFS - quit being so Pedantic....the point I was making is that the majority of time we pick our own targets - without getting suggestions from anyone outside of APA.

[Avenged]

we do fight are own battle, the fact still remains that the war between coven never materialized!

I wish all you people could get your facts right before critisizing and jumping to conclusions!

Quote!

[18:15] <Avenged> a war doesnt benifit us atall
[18:15] <jackle> we werent interested in the beginning. just expected incomings that never really materialised

So get off the Coven case for a start, you know nothing about it evidently!

[Avenged]

Originally Posted by wakey

Yes your gaining score reguluarry but its hardly blazing a trail. Your in that constant 2-2.5% growth level that youd expect any alliance to be in with a resonable attack and a resonable amount of incoming. Ofc maybe the gains were higher on the days you take their targets but I hardly see a major bonus tbh

But as we have said, we have only attacked acouple of times with EXI and the score increase justifies this

by my post i was atempting to justify the slight co-operation we have with EXI

[notsure]

Originally Posted by wakey

And I'm surpised at how defensive APA are being. If the post was critising their tactics then I could understand it but infact it makes allowences for them being so shortsighted, we've all been caught off guard at some point due to be flatered by a big alliance or player offering us something and we failed to grasp the real reason why they would be offering us such deals. It really is as if they do have something to hide


Rather than sitting on the info like I could I wanted to bring it to light in the hope the smaller alliances wise up and become a bit more street wise. They have enough issues to deal with without being taken for a ride due to their lack of experiance.

So we shouldn't get defensive about you calling us shortsighted - and saying we've been taken for a ride (which implies our HC's have no clue) - because you're not critising our tactics...

Just because a NAP with EXI wasn't suitable for F-Crew doesn't mean it's not suitable for us...guess what we're all big boys and girls and don't need to ask our mums and dads for permission to play with the other kids.

[notsure]

Originally Posted by wakey

What they are actually forgetting is that the deal allows them to be used as flak EVEN if the targets arent suggested. The deal requires all alliance attacks to be run by the other party so that alliance members can be declared off limits. Now I wonder how Exil manage to come in a few ticks later after the defence has been drawn even if the targets were choosen by the Alliance themselves. They are clearly using intel about when the smaller alliances are launching attacks on galaxies that aid their 'war' and then tagging along.

Only problem with this theory - is that at least to my knowledge - our choice of targets is not discussed with EXI at all - and likewise they don't discuss theirs with us....

We choose our targets, we attack our targets we do our own thing...it's really very simple

[SteInMetz]

Originally Posted by notsure

So we shouldn't get defensive about you calling us shortsighted - and saying we've been taken for a ride (which implies our HC's have no clue) - because you're not critising our tactics...

Just because a NAP with EXI wasn't suitable for F-Crew doesn't mean it's not suitable for us...guess what we're all big boys and girls and don't need to ask our mums and dads for permission to play with the other kids.

And usually the other kids doesnt ask their moms/dads to smack your head either tho..

[Amycus]

Originally Posted by The_Mad_Keg

people have the exil coords

Hmmm I wish people would get my coords right so I quit getting attacked by our own block. :eek:

But on a relevant note I have to say the real point of this thread is to try to discredit eX as usual. You can't pin cheating on us so you say we recruit to the top, you can't pin that on us so you say we have shady dealings and corrupt naps. Same nonsense over and over again round after round from the very beginning of PA.

While you worry about winning the battle of words on these forums, we will worry about winning the game.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by The_Mad_Keg

Hmmm as Demi God has said he mentioned this back in the APA Coven war thread. With this can we really believe u didnt have Exils help hitting Coven?? and its already all going against you APA some of ure members will have less gal defence due to exil wiping the gal members out. a gal with 2 apa bc's no less was hit last night by Exil. and denying it is pointless, people have the exil coords, logs from said gal chan backs it up. along with all the inc coords of that night. the fact hc's are coming on and saying they dont know about this either shows a ridiculous amount of lying or a lack of knowledge within the alliance. i had resepct for APA until all this bollox happend.
fight ure own fights do it urself.

I douby Exil were involved in hitting coven. Tactically it doesnt make sense, they are looking to make gains over their allies not hit an alliance full of smallish players.

[Neferti]

Surely if you're getting 'suggested' targets by exilition, that implies at least some degree of co-operation in attacks, no?

[Loz]

EXi weren't involved in hitting Coven. We were barely involved in hitting Coven :P

[notsure]

Originally Posted by The_Mad_Keg

Hmmm as Demi God has said he mentioned this back in the APA Coven war thread. With this can we really believe u didnt have Exils help hitting Coven??

Again to the best of my knowledge - at no time was EXI asked to hit coven on our behalf - heck we weren't overly interested in hitting coven, why would we get someone else to do it for us...

Originally Posted by The_Mad_Keg

and its already all going against you APA some of ure members will have less gal defence due to exil wiping the gal members out. a gal with 2 apa bc's no less was hit last night by Exil. and denying it is pointless, people have the exil coords, logs from said gal chan backs it up.

You know what - I can't deny it - you know why - because I don't know who EXI hit - as I keep saying - We don't choose EXI's targets - they don't choose ours...

People seem to have this facination with EXI - and our association with them...and are reading a lot more into it than exists...

To the best of my knowledge, we don't hit EXI's planets - they don't hit ours - full stop end of story...that's as far as the NAP goes.

While we may occassionally receive suggestions of good targets - we are free to ignore them...just as we are free to listen to or ignore suggestions from any other alliance/person in the game...

[Avenged]

Originally Posted by Avenged

we do fight are own battle, the fact still remains that the war between coven never materialized!

I wish all you people could get your facts right before critisizing and jumping to conclusions!

Quote!

[18:15] <Avenged> a war doesnt benifit us atall
[18:15] <jackle> we werent interested in the beginning. just expected incomings that never really materialised

So get off the Coven case for a start, you know nothing about it evidently!

FFS GET OFF THE COVEN CASE!!!

[Squidly]

Originally Posted by Avenged

We are and always will stay the freindly crazy alliance, nothing can stop that, its a quality we require at recruitment level!

And as far as rep goes within the game, each round is a new, grudges are rarely carried accross

Good! That's the spirit. Being crazy is the way to go!

Although I beg to differ with the grudges being carried over... Example... 1up got pummeled this round, as did ND for a while there... and Vsn got pummeled this round as well early on by various people.

That was kind of grudge like =p

Ooh, and wakey: yus, that seems to be the case. Might have something to do with the conflicting stories coming out of some like-allianced ppl But hey, that's what AD is all about it aint it?

[monkeyrand]

If anyone has taken a close look at Coven targets if they have any form of intel then you will see that most are tiny and the only reason Coven has some sort of score is that it has so many members. As has been said this round is not about value so bashing a smaller allliance doen't really help.
This orund is all about xp and attacking large value targets to get it if people havent't fugured that out yet your are more stupid than i thought.

Tis would explain why those of you got hit harder after by conicidence we according to you attacked with Exilition. Bigger value targets, more xp, more roids better way to incerase score

[Bodders]

Originally Posted by The_Mad_Keg

its already all going against you APA some of ure members will have less gal defence due to exil wiping the gal members out. a gal with 2 apa bc's no less was hit last night by Exil. and denying it is pointless, people have the exil coords, logs from said gal chan backs it up. along with all the inc coords of that night. the fact hc's are coming on and saying they dont know about this either shows a ridiculous amount of lying or a lack of knowledge within the alliance. i had resepct for APA until all this bollox happend.
fight ure own fights do it urself.

well Keg if u must know the planned attacked against that galaxy was indeed known to [APA] officers but there was not much we could do about it.

But then again we have attacked galaxies that have Exil members in, just not their members.

Does not mean that those members will not get defence still does it, might not be as much but it mightbe enough to stop the attackers.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by notsure

So we shouldn't get defensive about you calling us shortsighted - and saying we've been taken for a ride (which implies our HC's have no clue) - because you're not critising our tactics...

Except when you lot started being defensive I hadnt said 'shortsighted'. Perhaps shortsighted wasnt the best word for me to use in the subsequent post but you have somewhat been taken in. As ive also said its nothing to be ashamed off from your pov as everyone has been at some point.

Originally Posted by notsure

Only problem with this theory - is that at least to my knowledge - our choice of targets is not discussed with EXI at all - and likewise they don't discuss theirs with us....

We choose our targets, we attack our targets we do our own thing...it's really very simple

So you have a nap but claim to not run targets by each other. How does that work and how on earth did Exil manage to hit a galaxy and but leave the two APA bc's?

Originally Posted by Amycus

Hmmm I wish people would get my coords right so I quit getting attacked by our own block. :eek:

But on a relevant note I have to say the real point of this thread is to try to discredit eX as usual. You can't pin cheating on us so you say we recruit to the top, you can't pin that on us so you say we have shady dealings and corrupt naps. Same nonsense over and over again round after round from the very beginning of PA.

While you worry about winning the battle of words on these forums, we will worry about winning the game.

That would suggest i actually care about eX, which is something i frankly dont and anyone who pays any attention to the forums knows this. My intrest in the game is on the community and lowe end of the game and the only time that I have any real intrest in the top alliances is when their actions infringe on these areas

[Hude]

Originally Posted by SteInMetz

Basicly helping out the winning block, by flaking for them sometimes, is something that should be considered as wrong imo..

1up *cough* ND *cough*

[Squidly]

Originally Posted by Hude

1up *cough* ND *cough*

Sorry... err... I must be blind...

But the point of this post is what exactly?

[Hude]

Originally Posted by Squidly

Sorry... err... I must be blind...

But the point of this post is what exactly?

That there was a lot of hypocrisy in the post I quoted.

[Squidly]

Says you that openly participated in it Hude =/

And sorry, isn't there a large difference between being flak and being useful? No offense to APA, but I do believe Exi is just trying to get extra firepower, whereas 1up actually gave/gives a damn about ND and that has been proven in my eyes a number of times.

I don't care what kind of grudge you hold against ND now Hude, but methinks you should open your eyes and realize that useful = finishing 3rd. Flak = finishing < 10.

If you can honestly say otherwise... then I shake meh head at you

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by SteInMetz

Basicly helping out the winning block, by flaking for them sometimes, is something that should be considered as wrong imo..
But as said many times before, im nobody, my opinion doesnt count.. i just like to voice it.

So who should they help? The loosing block? So that the loosing block could gain on the winning block thus winning?

I dont really get your arguments. [APA] can do whatever they want to. As can every other alliance. You cannot, and shouldnt dictate another alliance in their doings. That is for the alliance's HC to decide.

[ComradeRob]

Originally Posted by Wakey

we've all been caught off guard at some point due to be flatered by a big alliance or player offering us something and we failed to grasp the real reason why they would be offering us such deals

I'm sure APA's HC wouldn't have agreed to the deal if they didn't think it was in their interests.

Quite simply, if they weren't being offered something that they wanted, then they wouldn't have accepted the deal. They're not fools for trying to make a deal that benefits them. Likewise, if the deal turns out to be a bad idea (perhaps it draws more attention to APA, causing more people to hit them) then their HC would have to take the consequences of that.

A good HC knows when their alliance is being exploited, and wouldn't make that judgement based on some AD posts anyway. APA's HC seem clued up enough to come to their own decisions.

[Hude]

Originally Posted by Squidly

Says you that openly participated in it Hude =/

And sorry, isn't there a large difference between being flak and being useful? No offense to APA, but I do believe Exi is just trying to get extra firepower, whereas 1up actually gave/gives a damn about ND and that has been proven in my eyes a number of times.

I don't care what kind of grudge you hold against ND now Hude, but methinks you should open your eyes and realize that useful = finishing 3rd. Flak = finishing < 10.

If you can honestly say otherwise... then I shake meh head at you

Actually this is not about ND only (I merely brought ND up since their representative was posting here). What about NoS, SiN and ToF and what was ND relations to them?

And btw, I never accepted the politics even though I was part of it.

Edit: Oh, and ND are fluffy. No grudge.

[notsure]

Originally Posted by wakey

Except when you lot started being defensive I hadnt said 'shortsighted'. Perhaps shortsighted wasnt the best word for me to use in the subsequent post but you have somewhat been taken in. As ive also said its nothing to be ashamed off from your pov as everyone has been at some point.

Just how have we been "taken in" - we have chosen not to get hit by EXI, in return for not hitting them...works for us....I don't see the problem

Originally Posted by wakey

So you have a nap but claim to not run targets by each other. How does that work and how on earth did Exil manage to hit a galaxy and but leave the two APA bc's?

At a guess - EXI have APA co-ords - but heck at a guess most people have APA co-ords

[Kaisto]

1. yeah sure, we got help from exi hitting coven...erm..coven targets were so small that most of our boys were not able to hit them..where would that leave exi..And why the hell would we need their aid to whack coven in the first place????

2. We do hit exi gals, just not their members. and we do NOT run targets by them, nor do they by us. How that is possible u bright guys should find out on your own. Im off to see Star wars

[monkeyrand]

We are a new alliance, if this is a mistake as Wakey is suggesting it is then they will be made. 14th place for the first full round for an allaince is bloody good going.

We know that we have had the problem of spys as would be expected. I am sure all alliances have spys wheter they know it or not.

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by Squidly

while we're on the subject, why don't we start blasting LCH and cronies for their past ties to exi.

Past?

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by Avenged

you all seem to be focusing on the benifits that these random attacks have had to EXI

havent you noticed the score jumps in our alliance, the targets we attack also have less incs!

You are looking at short term benefits here. There are longer term things to consider such as how you will cope with the big alliances that you are drawing defence from hitting you in large coordinated strikes when they get sick of you acting as flak for exilition (which is what you are doing whether you like it or not, you hitting targets they have suggested or telling them which ones you are hitting means that you act as flak for them as much as they do for you).

I just hope you realise that once your bed is made, you have to lie in it, even through the rough times.

[Loz]

Just to clear something up about this galaxy attack - APA officers knew about it but there was little we could do. They did not join in on the attack. And it was only one BC in the galaxy, who was mentioned to EXil before they hit.

Originally Posted by Bodders

But then again we have attacked galaxies that have Exil members in, just not their members.

Yes but we didn't absolutely rape those galaxies.

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by Avenged

And as far as rep goes within the game, each round is a new, grudges are rarely carried accross

Completely wrong, at the top level, which you are currently diving into, grudges do carry more often than not. The only occasions where they don't is when alliances have no choice but to put them aside. As in my previous post, you have to consider long term benefits and detriments as well as the short term score issue.

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by The_Mad_Keg

the fact hc's are coming on and saying they dont know about this either shows a ridiculous amount of lying or a lack of knowledge within the alliance. i had resepct for APA until all this bollox happend.
fight ure own fights do it urself.

That is politics for you. HC very rarely come onto forums and tell the whole truth. Outright lies are common enough too. If you want to play a game whre everybody is completely open about everything, you should go elsewhere as PA is very heavily politically orientated. It is one of the things that makes the game interesting and so addictive, it reflects real life.

[starbreeze]

Let APA do what they want. If they are naive enough to think that a NAP with Exi will have no lasting ramifications on them, let it be. Experiance is best learnt first hand.

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by Kaisto

2. We do hit exi gals, just not their members. and we do NOT run targets by them, nor do they by us. How that is possible u bright guys should find out on your own. Im off to see Star wars

Originally Posted by Bodders

well Keg if u must know the planned attacked against that galaxy was indeed known to [APA] officers but there was not much we could do about it.

Originally Posted by Loz

Just to clear something up about this galaxy attack - APA officers knew about it

Any of you care to clarify the position?

[Bodders]

Originally Posted by starbreeze

Let APA do what they want. If they are naive enough to think that a NAP with Exi will have no lasting ramifications on them, let it be. Experiance is best learnt first hand.

Indeed we will do what we want, advice from others is always welcome imho.

We do not believe that there will be no ramifications by having a NAP with Exi, we are fully aware of the dangerous situation this could place us in. However if we are deemed a target for just having a NAP with them then so be it.

People please do not think of [APA] as naive, we are trying to do the best we can. What has been said in this thread and others based on Exi past conduct and or roumours have been listend to. Our officers have decided on a course of action knowing full well what can happen.

God forbid but if [APA] is attacked en mass, there is no need for the 'I told you so' thread to appear and call us fools. It just means that we would have made a mistake and that we will learn from it.

[Bodders]

Originally Posted by Bashar

Any of you care to clarify the position?

Ok it is this simple.

Exi attacked a galaxy that contained an [APA] member
They did not attack our member.

The End....

We did not want this but how could we stop them, tell them that we would roid them?

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by Bodders

Ok it is this simple.

Exi attacked a galaxy that contained an [APA] member
They did not attack our member.

The End....

We did not want this but how could we stop them, tell them that we would roid them?

I said clarify it, not go off on a tangent. That exilition attacked the galaxy and not your member in the galaxy was established much earlier in the thread and seems to have no disagreement. The disagreement appears with the sharing of targetting information. You/Loz say you knew exilition were hitting the gal, which implies you tell each other which targets you are hitting. Kaisto says you don't do this. That is the point I want clarifying, and I thought something that the post made obvious.

[Bodders]

ah ok my bad, clearly not thinking.

We aint sat around all round twiddling our thumbs, we have been collecting intelligence on other alliances. That and we have good sources of information that will not be named for obvious reasons.