Planetarion Forums - To whoever bidded for PA

Auro · 2 Dec 2002, 03:19

Registered Members: 9,122

9 bucks a month for a possible audience of 9,122. I say it's good. May I also predict the rise of an alliance called [what]?

Starbucks · 2 Dec 2002, 03:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Auro
Registered Members: 9,122

9 bucks a month for a possible audience of 9,122. I say it's good. May I also predict the rise of an alliance called [what]?

and every galaxy called I {> manbabies

Auro · 2 Dec 2002, 03:34

Can I recommend the anti-bot question "Do you have stairs in your house?" also

Starbucks · 2 Dec 2002, 03:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Auro
Can I recommend the anti-bot question "Do you have stairs in your house?" also

what if you live in a bungalow

You have to think about these things

ReDRuM · 2 Dec 2002, 21:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Starbucks
i like ideas as long as they are feasable

the controversial ideas are interesting way of controlling bandwidth

Not that I'm bitter or anything, but back in about round 4 I suggested FS make a client that players could use instead of a browser if they wanted to.. I suggested some parts of a protocol that could be used that would cut bandwidth by about 90%.

The client would be skinnable so alliances would be able to make their own skins and things, etc.. and I put forward loads of things that would have made make a client cost effective and attractive to the players.

But anyway..........

Tactitus · 2 Dec 2002, 23:00

Quote:

Originally posted by ReDRuM
Not that I'm bitter or anything, but back in about round 4 I suggested FS make a client that players could use instead of a browser if they wanted to.. I suggested some parts of a protocol that could be used that would cut bandwidth by about 90%.

A proprietary client would be a bad idea imho. It would only make sense if you charged for it and used it as another revenue stream, but then you'd have to worry about bootleg copies. It would also invariably exclude many non-wintel platforms, plus many people use computers at work or school which they are not able to install s/w on.

A better way to reduce bandwidth would be to just offer a text-only interface option (for which some of us players have been begging for years). That way, the 90% (or whatever) of the community that doesn't care about the stupid graphics, the lame frames, the gee-whiz mouseover effects, etc. wouldn't have to put up with them. An added bonus would be that the game would once-again be usable from non-latest-IE browsers.

I don't think Planetarion is ever going to be profitable selling eye candy--the bandwidth is just never going to be that cheap. The strength of PA is the game itself. I think players would gladly ditch the special effects if it meant getting their pages to load quicker.

ReDRuM · 2 Dec 2002, 23:39

A proprietary client would be a bad idea imho. It would only make sense if you charged for it and used it as another revenue stream, but then you'd have to worry about bootleg copies. It would also invariably exclude many non-wintel platforms

I meant for FS to make their own client. It shouldnt take much more than some google searching then abit of copying and pasting before designing the layout of the pages. There's bound to be just as many open-source linux/bsd/whatever networking programs out there as there are windows to use code from.

plus many people use computers at work or school which they are not able to install s/w on.

There's nothing stopping a client from being a solitary ~200kb program that can be run from a floppy. if an os can connect to the internet it should have adequate support for a networking program to run without any extra required files

A better way to reduce bandwidth would be to just offer a text-only interface option

The majority of users/browsers cache images... HTML makes up for a hell of a lot of the bandwidth useage. If a client was used, no HTML would have to be sent at all.

I don't think Planetarion is ever going to be profitable selling eye candy--the bandwidth is just never going to be that cheap. The strength of PA is the game itself. I think players would gladly ditch the special effects if it meant getting their pages to load quicker.

I'd have to agree with you there.

pablissimo · 2 Dec 2002, 23:49

Originally posted by ReDRuM

I meant for FS to make their own client. It shouldnt take much more than some google searching then abit of copying and pasting before designing the layout of the pages. There's bound to be just as many open-source linux/bsd/whatever networking programs out there as there are windows to use code from.

I'd think there's a little more to the process than that, for a start a total overhaul of the server code would be required in the way that data is exchanged with the user

There's nothing stopping a client from being a solitary ~200kb program that can be run from a floppy. if an os can connect to the internet it should have adequate support for a networking program to run without any extra required files

Not all users can access floppy drives, whereas an HTML document can be accessed from any machine with a connection to the internet.

The majority of users/browsers cache images... HTML makes up for a hell of a lot of the bandwidth useage. If a client was used, no HTML would have to be sent at all.

HTML generated serverside allowed tweaks and optimisations to be made to the code being sent, as well as layout changes, added functionality without the need for auto-updating software which requires much more testing than just a webpage

Tactitus · 3 Dec 2002, 00:33

Quote:

Originally posted by ReDRuM
I meant for FS to make their own client. It shouldnt take much more than some google searching then abit of copying and pasting before designing the layout of the pages. There's bound to be just as many open-source linux/bsd/whatever networking programs out there as there are windows to use code from.

I'd rather Fifth Season (and whomever buys PA) spend their time working on the game; not on a client. HTML is the standard and--if one can resist the temptation to avoid the bleeding-edge IE featuers--platform independent way for passing textual information around the net. I don't see sufficient value-add to reinvent that wheel.

Quote:

There's nothing stopping a client from being a solitary ~200kb program that can be run from a floppy. if an os can connect to the internet it should have adequate support for a networking program to run without any extra required files.

I don't really have ready access to a floppy drive at work. Plus the two computers at work I have the most access to are an Apple PowerBook running Mac OS 9.2 and an sgi Indy workstation running IRIX 6.5--is your client going to run on either of these systems? I thought not.

Quote:

The majority of users/browsers cache images...

Indeed; and yet caching hasn't eliminated the bandwidth problem. I know that I access PA from at least a half-dozen different computers--most of which are shared with other people. Expecting that all the PA images will always be cached on all of these systems is not very realistic.

Quote:

HTML makes up for a hell of a lot of the bandwidth useage. If a client was used, no HTML would have to be sent at all.

The point is, a text-only page doesn't need much HTML. It also doesn't need a very sophisticated browser (i.e., the lastest version of IE) either. Virtually all of the computers connected to the net already have a browser of some form, that can at least display simple text-only pages. I think an online game that requires only a browser to play and doesn't need any additional software installed has a tremendous advantage in the marketplace.

Mong · 3 Dec 2002, 01:17

I'm assured that the buyer of PA won't merely be the person with the most cash! I'm assured that it will go to the person who offers the best overall deal FOR THE PLAYERS, and not just the creator's pockets.

So don't worry Starbucks; just because somebody bid 3x more than you, it's not certain they'll get it.

M.

Deathjam · 3 Dec 2002, 01:27

yus starbucks u must buy it

on a side note in the whole pa package u get, do u get the early rounds code too

JammyJim · 3 Dec 2002, 03:36

there is no 'early round' code to have. the code evolved and i dont believe backups were made of the early stuff. not backups that they have anyway.

i might be wrong but i dont think i am...

"to the best of my knowledge"

Dead_Meat · 3 Dec 2002, 10:15

Rnd #1 PA Code. Feb 2000 by Fudge

Code:

if fleet makeup == destroyers AND fighters AND astropods
then yuo == teh win !!!

hinch · 3 Dec 2002, 10:26

well ive put in my little bid for the thing.

good luck to whoever gets it hope you have a clue as the middleware code is abit over your head 8o)

ta
hinch

PS. only 2 actual players have worked directly on the pa servers as far as im aware neither of which are starbucks. your also a first year unistudent without a clue in business sence or code ability + i sencerly doubt you have a clue how to setup palinux if you ever break 10k players.

see pa is a funny thing it puts so much load on a system you have to use a special recoded kernel and multiple httpd`s which arent apache.

but whoever gets it gets to find the joys of that out i`ll be available for consultation at a cost of £500 a day 8o) or you can just give me pa and let me do it properly 8o)

clx · 3 Dec 2002, 10:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Ragnarak
new campaign:

Starbucks for creator-type person: what's the worst that could happen? \0/

he could employ nodrog as public relations, db manager, and to genraly manage the game.....

Mong · 3 Dec 2002, 10:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Iniluki
As an impartial PA player I know Starbucks will look after the community and will listen to it!

Starbuck's rantings and general temper displayed here, and in the past isn't exactly heartwarming! But that said, he's better than a lot of other bidders.

If I could raise the money, I'd do it - and not make a loss!

M.

Grimble · 3 Dec 2002, 10:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Mong
rantings and general temper

it's more fun than the old creators

Mong · 3 Dec 2002, 10:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Grimble
it's more fun than the old creators

Hehe, maybe. Don't get me wrong cos Starbucks generally amuses me - I just don't think he's got the right attitude to manage a game of 10,000 players - in his SPARE TIME!

M.

xtrasyn · 3 Dec 2002, 11:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Iniluki
I f*cking hope so!

As an impartial PA player I know Starbucks will look after the community and will listen to it!

anyway

peace!

Ini

SECONDED

IF and IF Starbucks gets it, I promise to devote my efforts to PA, and if he wants me for anything, I will do it to its best.

Bumsex not included. Nor oral.

If however some party like "Amerikkka Onlien" gets it I SWEAR I will do anything in my power to destroy and annoy.

Deffeh · 3 Dec 2002, 19:47

Quote:

Originally posted by hinch
well ive put in my little bid for the thing.

good luck to whoever gets it hope you have a clue as the middleware code is abit over your head 8o)

ta
hinch

PS. only 2 actual players have worked directly on the pa servers as far as im aware neither of which are starbucks. your also a first year unistudent without a clue in business sence or code ability + i sencerly doubt you have a clue how to setup palinux if you ever break 10k players.

see pa is a funny thing it puts so much load on a system you have to use a special recoded kernel and multiple httpd`s which arent apache.

but whoever gets it gets to find the joys of that out i`ll be available for consultation at a cost of £500 a day 8o) or you can just give me pa and let me do it properly 8o)

"bitter"

if you fail with your bid, this quote will come back to haunt you

if you succeed, then this quote will be used to call you arrogant

xtrasyn · 3 Dec 2002, 19:54

Quote:

Originally posted by hinch
well ive put in my little bid for the thing.

good luck to whoever gets it hope you have a clue as the middleware code is abit over your head 8o)

ta
hinch

PS. only 2 actual players have worked directly on the pa servers as far as im aware neither of which are starbucks. your also a first year unistudent without a clue in business sence or code ability + i sencerly doubt you have a clue how to setup palinux if you ever break 10k players.

see pa is a funny thing it puts so much load on a system you have to use a special recoded kernel and multiple httpd`s which arent apache.

but whoever gets it gets to find the joys of that out i`ll be available for consultation at a cost of £500 a day 8o) or you can just give me pa and let me do it properly 8o)

This is different

he will have me to help him

and I have excellent cavalry

Ragnarak · 3 Dec 2002, 19:58

Quote:

Originally posted by hinch
well ive put in my little bid for the thing.

starbucks would be my choice as i still don't trust you since you cheated at i8 ;(

Leshy · 3 Dec 2002, 20:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Mong
I'm assured that it will go to the person who offers the best overall deal FOR THE PLAYERS, and not just the creator's pockets.

The money will go to the investors and they're the ones selling it. Most likely they don't give a rats ass about the game, and will sell it to the highest bidder.

xtrasyn · 3 Dec 2002, 20:22

Witch in turn could account for the fact that Spinner is going mental.

Starbucks · 3 Dec 2002, 21:26

I've been meaning to speak to you hinch

your never online when i am, i might just ring you later

anyway the time is nearing short

I know about the problems with the system and it going above 10k users, the Database server will look like a dog on rabies and start shouting in hex "i cannot take anymore captain I JUSS CANT TAKE ANYMORE!"

These require a few* modifications to the linux kernel,

Quote:

PS. only 2 actual players have worked directly on the pa servers as far as im aware neither of which are starbucks. your also a first year unistudent without a clue in business sence or code ability + i sencerly doubt you have a clue how to setup palinux if you ever break 10k players.

I havent worked on the PA Servers Before, but i have worked on BAE Systems before, which probably runs the same amount of processes that PA does in a month in Round 4, in a day. Those were a real bitch to screw around with

/me throws a HP File server at monkey boy

Anyway, business sense, i have managed to convince Barclays to give me a 60k loan secured on practically **** all, that requires more that "pfft you boy big up me 60 large so i can buy PA jeeeez". Code ability....oh sorry, my site isnt up yet so you cant comment on that, anyway i know you can code well and im sure it wont take me long to get to grips with the PA code (im sure as hell i will add a lots of comments into it when i get it to get my head round it) and i know about the kernel modifications you will need to put in place due to excessive connections, this requires a bit of tweaking* im sure.

If i need you then you will get that price and a nice train ticket to the server loc.

*understatement

Starbucks · 3 Dec 2002, 21:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Leshy
The money will go to the investors and they're the ones selling it. Most likely they don't give a rats ass about the game, and will sell it to the highest bidder.

usted mejora esperanza no mi amigo

mikay · 3 Dec 2002, 22:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Starbucks
I've been meaning to speak to you hinch

your never online when i am, i might just ring you later

anyway the time is nearing short

I know about the problems with the system and it going above 10k users, the Database server will look like a dog on rabies and start shouting in hex "i cannot take anymore captain I JUSS CANT TAKE ANYMORE!"

These require a few* modifications to the linux kernel,

I havent worked on the PA Servers Before, but i have worked on BAE Systems before, which probably runs the same amount of processes that PA does in a month in Round 4, in a day. Those were a real bitch to screw around with

/me throws a HP File server at monkey boy

Anyway, business sense, i have managed to convince Barclays to give me a 60k loan secured on practically **** all, that requires more that "pfft you boy big up me 60 large so i can buy PA jeeeez". Code ability....oh sorry, my site isnt up yet so you cant comment on that, anyway i know you can code well and im sure it wont take me long to get to grips with the PA code (im sure as hell i will add a lots of comments into it when i get it to get my head round it) and i know about the kernel modifications you will need to put in place due to excessive connections, this requires a bit of tweaking* im sure.

If i need you then you will get that price and a nice train ticket to the server loc.

*understatement

If you had £60k why on earth don't you actually pay to get an original game developed. There's £60k worth of developed idea in PA but there certainly isn't that much code by a long way.

The other point is that while you may have dabbled on unix systems you don't have the serious experience to deal with things when they go wrong and the real worry is you wouldn't even be able to get it going at all.

xtrasyn · 3 Dec 2002, 23:14

Well, I think Starbucks knows his ****.

I hope we'll be told on midnight

Leshy · 3 Dec 2002, 23:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Starbucks
usted mejora esperanza no mi amigo

no hablo espagnol, fs

I do hope they sell it to you though - seems like you got stuff worked out

Edit: Arrepentido acerca de no mejorar su esperanza

Starbucks · 3 Dec 2002, 23:24

Quote:

Originally posted by mikay
If you had £60k why on earth don't you actually pay to get an original game developed. There's £60k worth of developed idea in PA but there certainly isn't that much code by a long way.

The other point is that while you may have dabbled on unix systems you don't have the serious experience to deal with things when they go wrong and the real worry is you wouldn't even be able to get it going at all.

thats the thing, i will get help from the community until i fiddle with the code to work on the server platfroms im used to (not NT by the way)

WIll take a bit of doing, but everyone will expect a few teething problems, its justifyable

ReDRuM · 4 Dec 2002, 00:31

I'd rather Fifth Season (and whomever buys PA) spend their time working on the game; not on a client. HTML is the standard and--if one can resist the temptation to avoid the bleeding-edge IE featuers--platform independent way for passing textual information around the net. I don't see sufficient value-add to reinvent that wheel.

up to 90% savings on game bandwidth not sufficient value-add? If we were to go free again, bandwidth would probably be the highest cost.

The client should pay for its self in a month, even if they were hire in outside help.

I don't really have ready access to a floppy drive at work. Plus the two computers at work I have the most access to are an Apple PowerBook running Mac OS 9.2 and an sgi Indy workstation running IRIX 6.5--is your client going to run on either of these systems? I thought not.

If you have access to the internet, you could always just download the program afresh, and I don't see why they wouldn't make a version for Mac OS.. I think IRIX is pushing it a little though.

Please note, I did say that the client should be made as an alternative not a replacement.

caching hasn't eliminated the bandwidth problem. I know that I access PA from at least a half-dozen different computers--most of which are shared with other people. Expecting that all the PA images will always be cached on all of these systems is not very realistic.

The reason I mentioned the image caching is that removing the images wouldn't save massive amounts of bandwidth when compared to HTML. 100kb of images downloaded once every time you log in doesnt really compare to 30kb of HTML downloaded once every pageview.

The point is, a text-only page doesn't need much HTML. It also doesn't need a very sophisticated browser (i.e., the lastest version of IE) either. Virtually all of the computers connected to the net already have a browser of some form, that can at least display simple text-only pages. I think an online game that requires only a browser to play and doesn't need any additional software installed has a tremendous advantage in the marketplace.

After cutting a version of the production page down to a text-only version, it came out at ~20kb. The only required information on the production page is; whether or not a ship can be built, how many are in stock and how much are in production. This could be done in what.... 100-200 bytes?

Sure, FS was never too careful in optimizing their HTML. The page could easily be cut down to 5-10kb, though 5kb down to 200 bytes is still some quality saving.

Tactitus · 4 Dec 2002, 05:51

Quote:

Originally posted by ReDRuM
up to 90% savings on game bandwidth not sufficient value-add?

90% savings compared to their already bloated HTML perhaps, but compared to a basic text-only option the savings would be less--a lot less.

Quote:

After cutting a version of the production page down to a text-only version, it came out at ~20kb.

You must not have cut very deep. I did my entire Round 3 unit stats, which has far more information than the Production page, in ~20KB. There's no way a text-only production page should be more than a few thousand bytes--tops, and probably quite a bit less.

Auro · 4 Dec 2002, 06:46

I knew someone who bid fifty thousand United States Dollars. It's getting big!

I don't know who to support. Starbucks is a goon, but the other guy would make me a creator.... mmm

Crackmonkey · 4 Dec 2002, 07:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Auro
I knew someone who bid fifty thousand United States Dollars. It's getting big!

I don't know who to support. Starbucks is a goon, but the other guy would make me a creator.... mmm

Quote:

Originally posted by Starbucks
i have managed to convince Barclays to give me a 60k loan secured on practically **** all

I think your friend better make his bid a little higher. Personally I never thought it would get this high.

Ragnarak · 4 Dec 2002, 10:25

Quote:

Originally posted by ReDRuM
[BI think IRIX is pushing it a little though.
[/b]

oi

i use IRIX at uni

Mong · 4 Dec 2002, 10:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Starbucks
usted mejora esperanza no mi amigo

Was that supposed to be spanish?

M.

roadrunner_0 · 4 Dec 2002, 13:18

ReDRuM, i can safely say that i cannot use a client for 90% of my pa playing, but if it went text only, i could use it at work a lot easier and probably hide it from my boss better as well