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Unread 12 Jun 2009, 23:16   #1
lokken
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Round 31: Final Analysis

Here's your thread for your final thoughts on the outcome and play of round 31. I'd really like to hear anyone's views on how either the alliance, galaxy and planet race went. Most of all I'd really like to hear from you on what you think can be improved in the game for next round, and how we could make all three of the races more exciting.
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Unread 13 Jun 2009, 00:12   #2
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

Disable the exile jumping to avoid any super gals gettting formed. And people to "abuse" the system to fit in their politics, jumping till in friendly enough gal.
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Unread 13 Jun 2009, 00:30   #3
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ave View Post
Disable the exile jumping to avoid any super gals gettting formed. And people to "abuse" the system to fit in their politics, jumping till in friendly enough gal.
Great, so gal wins become even more of a lottery than they are now? Shit players in your gal? Sucks for you! Roll the dice and see who wins!
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Unread 13 Jun 2009, 00:42   #4
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

isn't part of every game like this to get new players to become good players?

i understand playing with newbs or inactives is less then optimal but in every new player there is a new top player, it's for the "oldbies" to get that out of them
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Unread 13 Jun 2009, 03:26   #5
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

Woah, that really threw me for a moment.

I personally enjoyed playing with some top-class players again in a group that I never thought would bother getting back together for one of these games. Even though the round was pretty much as we expected, it was fun to throw ourselves back into it. Probably scanning next round, certainly not playing actively.
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Unread 13 Jun 2009, 07:42   #6
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

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Originally Posted by Ave View Post
Disable the exile jumping to avoid any super gals gettting formed. And people to "abuse" the system to fit in their politics, jumping till in friendly enough gal.
even though this is unrelated to the OP, YOU can prevent this by not allowing your alliance to give planet naps, and by forcing YOUR alliance to take aggression to any galaxy that wants to sit and lolfence through the round.

Lok: galaxy race was boring (lolfence), alliance race was interesting only because it seemed that everyone was going to gangbang asc all round while not having hostiles at all themselves (which we saw how that worked out in the end), and the planet race was interesting until elviz was a backstabbing *bleep* which led to Achi heroically finishing 2nd after practically giving up.

but, you're probably well aware of all that.

there isn't any mechanic in the game that will prevent people from working together and forming blocks / fences / etc. all of those create boring, stagnant rounds that everyone tires of. maybe once the passport system is in place, galaxies/alliances/players that keep, nourish, and help new players could receive some kind of bonus incentive (within reason).

gosh, i had something else to add, but lilboi started talking on irc and i got distracted
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Unread 13 Jun 2009, 08:16   #7
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

Better stats might lead to a more interesting round, this rounds stats were ****
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Unread 13 Jun 2009, 08:30   #8
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raging.Retard View Post
Great, so gal wins become even more of a lottery than they are now? Shit players in your gal? Sucks for you! Roll the dice and see who wins!
They are not lottery, you can create a budypack. So there is atleast 5 players with some quality.

You know that random gals are suppoused to help individual joiners and new players. How are they gona get the aid, if peeps jumps till they have a "private" gal together. And dont get me wrong, I would rather play with priv gals too. The curent system doesnt serve the galaxies and even the randoms seems to get dumped like garbage.

Perhaps you are the one being shit if u cant make it to the top without huge amount of support behind u?
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Unread 13 Jun 2009, 08:40   #9
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

Good point: alliance ingame tools. Though there is room for improvement you can run a good alliance with them. They are better that some tools I have seen in alliances, provided people are given the right access.

Bad point: too few alliances able to meet the member limit, resulting in a real advantage in term of fleet slots available (combined with xan faking abilities) for 2 of them.

About politics: still puzzled as how xVx with the lead they were given managed to blow it all. I blame it on their HC lack of basic strategic vision, and a shyness in war close to cowardice.

I posted an idea about giving each alliance the control of a cluster
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...0&postcount=26
because I think we reached a point where galaxy cooperation has turned to a nightmare with ridiculous situations : when your gal controlled by 6 members of an alliance is attacked by that same alliance, you're screwed: mistrust and revenge shouldn't be the driving force behind galaxies.

I managed to have a fun... well, not frustrating round because I reset my terran planet around tick 300 to go Cath. Life was so much easier after that. I just hope next round stats don't kill the Cath just because they were owerpowered this time.

If we need to drop 1 race to make more easily balanced stats, I suggest getting rid of Terrans... and giving the Terran name to ETDs.
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Unread 13 Jun 2009, 10:57   #10
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
better stats might lead to a more interesting round, this rounds stats were ****
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Unread 13 Jun 2009, 12:30   #11
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

This round would never have been interesting with politics how they were. Nice aftertiming on the stats though!
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Unread 13 Jun 2009, 15:24   #12
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

Good:
- alliance ingame tools, they've seen much improvement and are really handy now
- ingame bcalc (finally!)
- ETD, good for selfcover, good in attack, bad in defence. really enjoyed playing etd this round. Especially considering how everyone thought they were crap


Bad:
- Lack of strategic vision and good politics in most alliances. Lead to a very boring round for ranks (galaxy/alliance/top planet). As usual the only alliance with skill in this department in Asc so no suprise they won again.

This is not something the game developers can fix, this is something the community itself has to solve if they want more interesting rounds in the future.
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Unread 13 Jun 2009, 15:56   #13
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

To be honest the HC's of non Asc alliances can only work with what they've got - and all they have are selfish galaxy players that wont be flexible. Until there is a cultural shift in PA the problem will remain, and most people who can make a difference will just idle in BG's.
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Unread 13 Jun 2009, 17:42   #14
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

I quite like the sentiments of Gary and Veedejem's posts and i think they need a bit more exploring:

I think Ascendancy lacked strategic vision too - their lack of strategy this round proved that you won't really win rounds by just galaxy raiding and that really if you want to win, you have to go after people. If we'd eliminated some BG's sooner, we'd have made our lives a damn sight easier and with the right discipline and motivation, perhaps reduced the universe to rubble. This lack of vision, fuelled by ill discipline and greed cost us what many of us would have considered a proper, convincing victory.

Instead what we got was a roid race with xVx, with us not really wanting to hit xVx as we were outroiding them quite comfortably and xVx not wanting to hit us in fear of the consequences. Once it became apparent we were getting bogged down, xVx made a good move to attack us in an attack that severely dented our growth.

Once Ascendancy realised we weren't going to get anywhere by letting the situation persist, we simply had to change the political situation; it's just textbook strategy. With the BG's being extremely hostile (with some appearing to have the sole aim of stopping us) from our point of view, working with them was pretty much a non starter which left us the xVx option. First of all, I think we need to look at why xVx would take a NAP of any shape or form. I can think of two reasons:

1) Fear Not of Ascendancy by any means but of the BG's going after them. I think if you look at it the BG's would certainly not tolerate the likes of LDK picking them off at the end of the round. On that basis, xVx may have viewed themselves as vulnerable to a prolonged conflict with planets that I think were reasonably competent in the way they went about their business.

2) Greed There are certainly individuals within xVx who fancied the now fat BG's for their own targeting, and maybe they wanted some targets which had a small defence pool with a good chance of them getting a big return from hitting them.

Obviously, Ascendancy offered this NAP while relinquishing the win. I find the logic of xVx quite bizarre in terms of refusing it. A chance to win planetarion doesn't come often for an alliance like xVx and I would have almost certainly snapped it up. Perhaps they felt that if we overtook them, it would be embarrassing and didn't want to defend the fallout.

The problem with the BG's were with issues that are almost contradictory. On the one hand appeared were very inflexible politically; on the other they had so many different interests it was difficult to ascertain what their true motives were and I guess that's what partly made them so inflexible. In the end the fact that they were hostile to Ascendancy from the off and you couldn't really see them holding one position cost them dearly. As that just gave Ascendancy the best advert as to who to target and who not to, particularly with their defensive vulnerability (as I've touched upon above).

If you're Ascendancy and you've played for a long time, you'll probably be disappointed as in the end our opponents probably contributed more than we did. Strategically we offered little and our discipline internally was not that great. The solace we can take from r31 is that we kept going until the end (in the end I think we were capping so relentlessly xvx just couldn't keep the pace) and that those that hate us for pretty much no other logical reason than that we exist wasted their time and got utterly utterly beaten. I've been reading the posts of some of them being utterly exasperated with xVx's decision with quite some contentment in the past couple of weeks. Nevertheless, I think if the same people unite and create a solid unit, I think they can beat us, particularly if we play like that again.

As for the universe, well I think it's shown that if you gear yourself up to win (which doesn't mean beating x, y or z at all costs) and play for what happens at the end of the round with your politics, then you have a chance of winning. This round was interesting in the sense that it was very much a 'what not to do'. If we're going to focus change, it should be around slightly smaller alliances, balancing stats (perhaps at the cost of a race), smaller galaxies and adding cluster geography to the mixer.

Finally this round's EORC was piss poor. There's no place for arguing about who landed on what and who cheated, when the results are in you just have to sit there and take it in the EORC. If you want to bitch and whine, we have a forum for those kinds of things. While the LDK galaxy stuff was amusing, I think you actually need people to describe how the galaxy actually won. I can't say the alliance section was that great either. This is no diss on Appocomaster, but really you need someone who is actively playing to ask some invasive questions to get details out of people about how they won to make the thing interesting and relevant to the existing playerbase.
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 10:55   #15
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokken
Finally this round's EORC was piss poor. There's no place for arguing about who landed on what and who cheated, when the results are in you just have to sit there and take it in the EORC. If you want to bitch and whine, we have a forum for those kinds of things. While the LDK galaxy stuff was amusing, I think you actually need people to describe how the galaxy actually won. I can't say the alliance section was that great either. This is no diss on Appocomaster, but really you need someone who is actively playing to ask some invasive questions to get details out of people about how they won to make the thing interesting and relevant to the existing playerbase.
Hi there Lokken!

Some key points for why 10:4 won are

According to rumours we were fenced. To me, fencing consist of having as many alliances as possible inside the gal to avoid galraids from other alliances. We were 7 Asc, 6 xVx, and 1 Orbit leaving us open to most of the universe. But in effect, we avoided inc nevertheless. This of course had to do with the political climate this round, but I'll not go into that here. It definitely was a major advantage for the galaxy.

Due to this climate we had piss poor incs at the start and it provided shelter throughout the round. We lost the most roids when some BG hit us with CR/BS - but that was only on our Asc members.

The gal started out with a bp of carDi, Inforza, Matas, Balamutas and Tekno with Cain taking carDi's spot at the last minute. Spectro and I shuffled in and carDi exiled in at pt72. After that we knew we would be in good shape for a top ranking galaxy.

Superior roiding - we outroided every other galaxy most nights of the round. We attacked 24/7, not only limited to the night raids.

We also had a psychological advantage of having carDi on board. Somehow he always tends to know about incs, and after last round where people ruined their lives trying to roid 6:1 I'm sure the willingness to hit his gal this round was lowered. Not sure how much this mattered.

While there probably are more points I think I managed to write down the most important ones. if you look at the sandmans graph we had negative roids on two occasions, albeit small in the larger picture towards the beginning of the round and a larger one around the middle. We had some more random inc, but they all got covered pretty much.

PS. Having inc does not mean negative roid growth as Golan tried to comment in another thread!

A lot of people stated that anyone can win with this little inc - and they're probably right.

I'm not hugely active on this board, but I'll try to reply with some sanity from my POV.
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 11:23   #16
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

Seeing that u did hold plenty of members from top 2 alliances, whom seemed to be onlyones able to play from the victory, it was quite fenced indd. Usually a player or 2 represented in the gal doesnt stop the alliances to come for a raid there.
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 11:58   #17
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

Heh Ave, it was clear in bp preround that the gal would be xvx/asc .. how could we have known preround how politics where gonna end up like..
asc plays mostly fortress galls, we decided to do fortress but then instead of just asc we did 2 alliances and it worked out very good.. it wasnt ment to be fencing..

also why every1 saying we where fencing when they didnt target us.. its not that we could do anything about the fact we never received incs.. its the other alliances that have to hit us
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 12:45   #18
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

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Originally Posted by Inforza View Post
Heh Ave, it was clear in bp preround that the gal would be xvx/asc .. how could we have known preround how politics where gonna end up like..
well when your GC who decided to make a mixed gal with the only alliances with full tag is also the HC of one of those alliances and a core member for the other in many previous rounds you can ask questions as to how much was known pre-round about politics...

(im not saying this is my opinion, just that it's an interesting observation)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inforza
also why every1 saying we where fencing when they didnt target us.. its not that we could do anything about the fact we never received incs.. its the other alliances that have to hit us
similar point to above. the only alliances who were going to actively target you were the BG's or asc. your GC arranged a nap with asc preventing them from hitting your gal, and allowing asc to hit the BG's full force which was going to result in them getting dominated or going inactive - in which case they werent going to be a threat to your gal.
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 13:00   #19
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

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well when your GC who decided to make a mixed gal with the only alliances with full tag is also the HC of one of those alliances
when did i was HC of one of those alliances??
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 13:03   #20
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
well when your GC who decided to make a mixed gal with the only alliances with full tag is also the HC of one of those alliances and a core member for the other in many previous rounds you can ask questions as to how much was known pre-round about politics...
I'm not so sure that carDi knew preround that the only two alliances filling their tags would be xVx and Asc, but it seems likely. But carDi wasn't the GC of 10:4 - Inforza was.
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 13:08   #21
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

Cardi wasnt even part of the "signed up" bp.. he "exiled" in... but we do had cardi in our bp as 6th planet, as he was so confident he would exile in, and pt76 he was
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 13:09   #22
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

The game is currently a laughing stock. There is no alliance competition (even when u rape asc, they have members who run politics for the contending ally, ie cardi, ergo nullifying any competition,) this will continue untill alliance limits are drastically lowered enough to allow more than 2 allies, 1 being asc, and the other being proxy asc (HAI CARDI AGAIN!) to contend for the round win.

Lower tag limits to 50, and bring in support planet rule, regardless of how dire it is, to allow more than a 1 horse race, such as the prearranged-withoutarrangingagreement to not agree to agree to not agree to not hit each other, or whatever the phuck it was ALLIANCE, such as we saw this round.

Support rule/tag limit. Sort it.
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 13:12   #23
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

Cardinal rejoined Ascendancy. Problem solved, right?
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 13:23   #24
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

It's not our fault if the tags that want to win any sort of tag competition are too retarded to actually create a competent tag. That won't even change with reduced alliance limits.
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 14:19   #25
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
I quite like the sentiments of Gary and Veedejem's posts and i think they need a bit more exploring:

I think Ascendancy lacked strategic vision too - their lack of strategy this round proved that you won't really win rounds by just galaxy raiding and that really if you want to win, you have to go after people. If we'd eliminated some BG's sooner, we'd have made our lives a damn sight easier and with the right discipline and motivation, perhaps reduced the universe to rubble. This lack of vision, fuelled by ill discipline and greed cost us what many of us would have considered a proper, convincing victory.

Instead what we got was a roid race with xVx, with us not really wanting to hit xVx as we were outroiding them quite comfortably and xVx not wanting to hit us in fear of the consequences. Once it became apparent we were getting bogged down, xVx made a good move to attack us in an attack that severely dented our growth.

Once Ascendancy realised we weren't going to get anywhere by letting the situation persist, we simply had to change the political situation; it's just textbook strategy. With the BG's being extremely hostile (with some appearing to have the sole aim of stopping us) from our point of view, working with them was pretty much a non starter which left us the xVx option. First of all, I think we need to look at why xVx would take a NAP of any shape or form. I can think of two reasons:

1) Fear Not of Ascendancy by any means but of the BG's going after them. I think if you look at it the BG's would certainly not tolerate the likes of LDK picking them off at the end of the round. On that basis, xVx may have viewed themselves as vulnerable to a prolonged conflict with planets that I think were reasonably competent in the way they went about their business.

2) Greed There are certainly individuals within xVx who fancied the now fat BG's for their own targeting, and maybe they wanted some targets which had a small defence pool with a good chance of them getting a big return from hitting them.

Obviously, Ascendancy offered this NAP while relinquishing the win. I find the logic of xVx quite bizarre in terms of refusing it. A chance to win planetarion doesn't come often for an alliance like xVx and I would have almost certainly snapped it up. Perhaps they felt that if we overtook them, it would be embarrassing and didn't want to defend the fallout.

The problem with the BG's were with issues that are almost contradictory. On the one hand appeared were very inflexible politically; on the other they had so many different interests it was difficult to ascertain what their true motives were and I guess that's what partly made them so inflexible. In the end the fact that they were hostile to Ascendancy from the off and you couldn't really see them holding one position cost them dearly. As that just gave Ascendancy the best advert as to who to target and who not to, particularly with their defensive vulnerability (as I've touched upon above).

If you're Ascendancy and you've played for a long time, you'll probably be disappointed as in the end our opponents probably contributed more than we did. Strategically we offered little and our discipline internally was not that great. The solace we can take from r31 is that we kept going until the end (in the end I think we were capping so relentlessly xvx just couldn't keep the pace) and that those that hate us for pretty much no other logical reason than that we exist wasted their time and got utterly utterly beaten. I've been reading the posts of some of them being utterly exasperated with xVx's decision with quite some contentment in the past couple of weeks. Nevertheless, I think if the same people unite and create a solid unit, I think they can beat us, particularly if we play like that again.

As for the universe, well I think it's shown that if you gear yourself up to win (which doesn't mean beating x, y or z at all costs) and play for what happens at the end of the round with your politics, then you have a chance of winning. This round was interesting in the sense that it was very much a 'what not to do'. If we're going to focus change, it should be around slightly smaller alliances, balancing stats (perhaps at the cost of a race), smaller galaxies and adding cluster geography to the mixer.

Finally this round's EORC was piss poor. There's no place for arguing about who landed on what and who cheated, when the results are in you just have to sit there and take it in the EORC. If you want to bitch and whine, we have a forum for those kinds of things. While the LDK galaxy stuff was amusing, I think you actually need people to describe how the galaxy actually won. I can't say the alliance section was that great either. This is no diss on Appocomaster, but really you need someone who is actively playing to ask some invasive questions to get details out of people about how they won to make the thing interesting and relevant to the existing playerbase.
The xVx option:

3) Cardinal being somewhat core asc.
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Can people please stop pretending they have no chance of winning at tick 300, you just end up looking retarded later.
^^^^ Can you blv that sh*t?
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 14:23   #26
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Re: Round 31: Final Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
It's not our fault if the tags that want to win any sort of tag competition are too retarded to actually create a competent tag. That won't even change with reduced alliance limits.
I agree wholeheartedly. The game as it is atm, is not Asc's fault in the slightest.

The shithouse situation the game finds itself in atm, is largely due to PAcrew's inability to neutralise the game with an eye to balance.

I disagree with the tag limit bit. Reducing tag limits, combind with support planet rule, will significantly reduce the effect of the Old Boys Club, which PA currently finds itself a victim of.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Can people please stop pretending they have no chance of winning at tick 300, you just end up looking retarded later.
^^^^ Can you blv that sh*t?
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