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Unread 16 Dec 2008, 21:48   #151
[B5]Londo
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

I disagree with both Light and Zotnam on several points, nonetheless i will not elaborate, this thread is about the proposals for the return of private galaxies, not a session on how a bp should be run, still less is it a critique of how 3:7 did or did not perform, that should be made into another thread or left to the inevitable 'who we were' thread in a few days.

While I would to to play in a priv gal again, I dont like the exclusiveness it implies and the added difficulty to new-starters, which imo is quite enough as it stands. i think that a bp expanded once more to 6 would do fine, and in compensation exiling should be harder as should self exiling, but it should be easier for bottom galaxies to disband, part of the reason for supporting such a tweak is because any radical move will anger part of our already small community and possibly shrink it further
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Unread 16 Dec 2008, 23:29   #152
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotnam View Post
Point is, you are only in the position where you can now defend properly in galaxy because of no incs for the vast majority of the round, thus the less active people in your gal actually have decent fleets instead of crap. The first two weeks is key for any gal wanting to be big and also key for the randoms. Your strat of keeping half active players only worked because of circumstances outside your control (this is otherwise known as luck) and a little because of no-one crashing/being fat (on that note I totally disagree with booji/londo hiding value in this gal, they should have dropped it much much sooner to make the gall look more unattractive to hit and have more ships to def with but in the end it didn't really matter since the gal wasn't involved in the war). You can plan to avoid inc to some degree but this round, this specific gal just got lucky, be thankfull for that instead of thinking it had anything to do with how you played.

Trust me on this, I've been in gals where we had little inc and therefor the randoms did well, I've also been in kickass gals where the randoms couldn't hold on to more than 300 roids because of constant inc, obviously the bp will prioritize eachother when being targeted more often, you simply need to.
As i said previous, i only mentioned my galaxy to show how my galaxy has helped randoms have a good round.. which is the point of this thread.

Weither you agree with my galaxy deserving to be where it is or if it was pure luck is irrelivent (Although i would add, that any galaxy in the top10 owes its place to luck or mainly due to Asc.. as they seem to be the alliance who decides exactly what place each galaxy finishes).

but the fact that you've said that you've been in galaxys where randoms have had little incs, is my point. That the buddy system in generals helps the randoms more than any private galaxy system would.
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Unread 17 Dec 2008, 07:30   #153
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

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Originally Posted by SteInMetz View Post
So you mean it's totally fair that a PRIVATE galaxy should have all the benefits that a player in a RANDOM galaxy will have, plus the fact that they are a private galaxy?
No, I was pointing out that your claim that
Quote:
I don't like that 3 alliances can team up on one alliance to outnumber them. This one applies exactly the same way you just said it.
responding to booji's post
Quote:
I dont think how likely it is enters into it tbh, I dont like the idea that it is pretty easy for an alliance to make it certain that waves will land simply because they have greater numbers and there are a limited number of fleetslots in galaxy, so there needs to be some kind of alliance system allowed either formal or informal.

If there are isolated galaxies I am pretty sure it wont take long before alliances realise that they can roid them simply by making sure there are 4 waves on every person in the galaxy.
is quite simply untrue. It does not apply in exactly the same way.
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Unread 17 Dec 2008, 09:30   #154
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

I still disagree with you, i agree its not exactly the same, but it's not far off.

And the differences could be made less by stats aswell, a statsset that have alot of higher eta defships combined with good planetmanagement means that a gal of 15 will have 45 deffleets on a night of incomings. With higher eta ships its safely to assume that 1 fleet covers 1 fleet (Most of the time, aslong as the planets have good planetmanagement).

45 attackfleets in one gal isnt realistic unless you only do one raid a night. And if you only do one raid a night, chances are that you wont even achieve 45 attackfleets.
So I don't think the numbers are unfair at all.

And the game could easily be changed for more goals than just alliance win, which the game is currently centered about, so i quite like the idea of privgals. But giving them no drawbacks is already proven that it doesnt work very good.
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Unread 17 Dec 2008, 09:49   #155
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

Why is it unrealistic to expect 45 attack fleets from a 75 man alliance, while 45 defence fleets from a 15 man galaxy is totally plausible?
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Unread 17 Dec 2008, 09:54   #156
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

tbh 45 fleets in a gal raid is few, not many, i have certainly seen 50+ on many occasions, and even if it were, you assume that 1/3rd of the fleet of each of the galaxies planet could cope each with an individuals attack fleet, and im sorry but thats not gonna happen for a lot of gals, plz dont forget the less 1337 might want to be in a gal with their m8s too!
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Unread 17 Dec 2008, 10:10   #157
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Why is it unrealistic to expect 45 attack fleets from a 75 man alliance, while 45 defence fleets from a 15 man galaxy is totally plausible?
If i were in a private galaxy, i would make sure everytime there were incs that fleets are grounded.
And I would also make sure that my private galaxy was an active one, so 45 fleets isnt THAT far off if you ground fleets, if you combine that with some stats that benefit higher eta defships it should pretty much be equal.

Ofcourse its possible to overrun a gal, but same is it with an alliance.
While JBG points out that you still have your gal to fall back on, many times that isnt the case, when 1/4 of the gal isnt allowed to defend you. Most likely those 1/4 are some of the larger planets in your random galaxy.

It is not unrealistic with 45 attack fleets if you only do one gal each night. But if you do several (2-3++), its more likely that all the alliance attack fleets get spread out over those raids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
tbh 45 fleets in a gal raid is few, not many, i have certainly seen 50+ on many occasions, and even if it were, you assume that 1/3rd of the fleet of each of the galaxies planet could cope each with an individuals attack fleet, and im sorry but thats not gonna happen for a lot of gals, plz dont forget the less 1337 might want to be in a gal with their m8s too!
Friendgals not playing hardcore will allways be roided more than the gal playing hardcore. It does sound logical.
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Unread 17 Dec 2008, 10:18   #158
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteInMetz View Post
It is not unrealistic with 45 attack fleets if you only do one gal each night. But if you do several (2-3++), its more likely that all the alliance attack fleets get spread out over those raids.

Friendgals not playing hardcore will allways be roided more than the gal playing hardcore. It does sound logical.
If alliances have a CERTAINTY of getting through if lots of attack fleets are sent they are far more likely to send many fleets at one gal, than a few at several.
Friends not playing hardcore do get roided more yes but this is no reason to make it impossible for them to do well, such a system of coded hopelessness would be a disaster, if someone started a priv gal then a few friends crash and give up then their gal is royally screwed.
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Unread 17 Dec 2008, 10:20   #159
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

Who's fault is it that they quit?
Certainly not mine..

Gals with quitters will allways be screwed anyways, just look at 5:3 this round.
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Unread 17 Dec 2008, 10:46   #160
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

5:3 are kinda exceptional: U cannot run a GAME in which your departure screws everyone else, ppl should not be compelled to dedication by their obligation to their friends, even the best gals lose a few to inactivity through attrition.
I have seen quite a few ppl quit cos they didnt get defence, stupid though it is, perhaps these ppl wont play if the Cant get def... which is counterproductive, as the primary reason for this debate is about getting more ppl to play not less.
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Unread 17 Dec 2008, 11:34   #161
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

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Originally Posted by SteInMetz View Post
If i were in a private galaxy, i would make sure everytime there were incs that fleets are grounded.
And I would also make sure that my private galaxy was an active one, so 45 fleets isnt THAT far off if you ground fleets
Do you think the current top gals are any different? That they get roided by a single alliance, as part of a raid on 2 or 3 galaxies in total?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteInMetz View Post
Ofcourse its possible to overrun a gal, but same is it with an alliance.
While JBG points out that you still have your gal to fall back on, many times that isnt the case, when 1/4 of the gal isnt allowed to defend you. Most likely those 1/4 are some of the larger planets in your random galaxy.
Maybe if people stopped trying to fence their way to the top their galaxies would be of more use.


In all seriousness, I can't tell if you're in favour of the original suggestion or not, I really can't. Please enlighten me.
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Unread 17 Dec 2008, 13:29   #162
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
As i said previous, i only mentioned my galaxy to show how my galaxy has helped randoms have a good round.. which is the point of this thread.

Weither you agree with my galaxy deserving to be where it is or if it was pure luck is irrelivent (Although i would add, that any galaxy in the top10 owes its place to luck or mainly due to Asc.. as they seem to be the alliance who decides exactly what place each galaxy finishes).

but the fact that you've said that you've been in galaxys where randoms have had little incs, is my point. That the buddy system in generals helps the randoms more than any private galaxy system would.
This is not about your gal specificly, but you seem to think its a good example of the buddy system working. It isn't. Random is random and you can be the most caring person in the world and your random gal mates can still be screwed over big time, fact. Private galaxies would in all likelyhood mean less inc for the average random player since everyone would know private gals are the ones you need to hit hard, random gals would then be "easy" roids people solo into or attack on slow nights.
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Unread 17 Dec 2008, 13:48   #163
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
In all seriousness, I can't tell if you're in favour of the original suggestion or not, I really can't. Please enlighten me.
I'm all for the original suggestion where priv galaxies arent allowed in an alliance or have the benefits that an alliance has.

I'm not in favour of giving priv galaxies more benefits.
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Unread 17 Dec 2008, 14:28   #164
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

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This is not about your gal specificly, but you seem to think its a good example of the buddy system working. It isn't.
that depends on what you think the role of the buddy system is, I think it is to have a small group of friends in your gal, and to help newbies and randoms, if this is your basis for judging a gal then I guess it is an example of the bp system working.

I was not playing when the bp system was set up so I dont know what arguments were used as a basis for it being set up, but I suspect the system we have now has mutated alot from the initial conception. I would imagine that there were arguments used about how it would help randoms, even newbies who land in the same galaxy as a reasonable bp, we have tried to do this and as such they might to stay longer playing pa.

the current system of always exiling inactives from most galaxies shows the buddy system not working as new players dont get the help they need to get into planetarion, many ppl have observed how useless the manual is, there needs to be experienced players in bps that will help overcome this by helping new players.

in many ways I believe our exceptionally few incs has been a bad thing for newer players ingal as they dont get a rounded view of what planetarion is like without regular nights of incoming, which I suspect everyone will agree is a essential part of the game!
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Unread 17 Dec 2008, 15:45   #165
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

Without reading any of the above comments and never have experienced a round with private gals i have to say:
i think this idea is shit . not knowing who you'll end up with in a gal is part of the pa charm for me.
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Unread 17 Dec 2008, 16:34   #166
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

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Originally Posted by HeimdallR View Post
Without reading any of the above comments and never have experienced a round with private gals i have to say:
i think this idea is shit . not knowing who you'll end up with in a gal is part of the pa charm for me.
So don't make use of it?
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Unread 17 Dec 2008, 20:59   #167
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

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So don't make use of it?
bleh
i can see asc players seeing nothing but advantages for it.
i think the lower allies would have more problems.

and i'd prolly would create my own priv gal anyways if the option excisted, but i don't have to like it.

the only thing that would be good for me is getting enough space for my pa buddies and having a fun relaxing gal all round long. That would prolly never make a real top gal tho.
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Unread 17 Dec 2008, 23:27   #168
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

Definately a fan of private gals, even if its just for one round to see what its like! I doubt it would change the dynamic hugely, I know alot of people will struggle to get 10-15 people together into a gal - as i know alot struggle for even 5 man bp's. So id guess there would be 10-20 private gals at most, probably full of PA's 'elite' players. As long as alliances are still availiable for some new people learning the ropes, and those seriously attached to the alliance communities (thou im sure they will all exist as attack groups in any case)

I really dont see any harm in giving it a try, if it doesnt work out then we can always revert to the previous system and have only lost a round and potentially drawn back in some old faces.
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Unread 18 Dec 2008, 10:46   #169
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
As i said previous, i only mentioned my galaxy to show how my galaxy has helped randoms have a good round.. which is the point of this thread.

Weither you agree with my galaxy deserving to be where it is or if it was pure luck is irrelivent (Although i would add, that any galaxy in the top10 owes its place to luck or mainly due to Asc.. as they seem to be the alliance who decides exactly what place each galaxy finishes).

but the fact that you've said that you've been in galaxys where randoms have had little incs, is my point. That the buddy system in generals helps the randoms more than any private galaxy system would.

There needs to be fleet morale/bash limit/xp gain, so other means to help the randoms avoid incoming. Perhaps even customized population settings for random useage, ie more free income from resource factors and more expensive roids to compensate. So they wouldnt get too attractive. Slower, but steady growth.

As it is now, also alliance players go random, hence there will be lot of free intel available and possible hostile players in your planets. Even they would be neutral, I wonder which alliances are so politic friendly and idle in offensive field that they wouldnt require your fleet in use. I REALLY DO WONDER IT! Perhaps your alliance(s) needs new leaders. Even in ASS there is action available around the clock, besides most attacks are during same time, when the fleets are required most. Perhaps some midday expections we can talk about.

If you disallow alliance players going random, the system could work, but that again requires changes in payment policies.
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Unread 21 Dec 2008, 15:25   #170
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

http://pastebin.com/mf4de3ef

is this for real? i can't see many priv gals springing up if there score doesn't count towards the alliance tag.
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Unread 21 Dec 2008, 15:40   #171
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

Really? its excellent for alliances that play for 'planet ranks'
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Unread 21 Dec 2008, 17:36   #172
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

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Originally Posted by HeimdallR View Post
http://pastebin.com/mf4de3ef

is this for real? i can't see many priv gals springing up if there score doesn't count towards the alliance tag.
This is a month-old comment for discussion with alliances.

It got totally shot down. If private galaxies are brought back, they would not be allowed to join alliances at all.
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Unread 21 Dec 2008, 23:22   #173
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

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Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post

It got totally shot down.
I, for one, am very curious as to who the perpetrators of this shooting down were.
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Unread 22 Dec 2008, 17:17   #174
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

me, it's a stupid idea. rob's idea is pure don't piss on it with your balls sticking compromises; keep it pure and it will bring a very interesting round for many players
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Unread 22 Dec 2008, 17:53   #175
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

I am with jer on that one. Compromises just for the sake of having compromises are shit. There is nothing wrong with banning people in private galaxies from joining an alliance.
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Unread 23 Dec 2008, 01:41   #176
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

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Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
This is a month-old comment for discussion with alliances.

It got totally shot down. If private galaxies are brought back, they would not be allowed to join alliances at all.

oops sorry for me pasting this here then, im a little behind on this priv gal discussion it seems
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Unread 26 Dec 2008, 15:56   #177
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

Priv gals is the way.
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Unread 28 Feb 2009, 07:56   #178
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

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Originally Posted by Bowlsey View Post
Taking on some good ideas and adding my own flavour...

One thing I have hated this round is alliance members being in BP with enemy alliance planets so the gal can try and fence sit most the round...i know planet targeting has been in play a lot but it doesn't stop members trying it.

Here's my idea:

Private gals of 5-10 players. They will only be able to receive defence from in galaxy at ETA5 or from their alliance (no ETA advantage)

Alliances consist of 5-10 galaxies. (note that the entire galaxy is placed in the alliance, not individual planets)

Random players will be put in with private galaxies but only able to recieve defence from their gal. If they choose to join an alliance they get placed in an alliance galaxy.

Anyways, my two shillings worth
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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Sounds like a great plan, if your goal is to push out all new players.
I find that Bowlsey's idea, with a few amendments, could be a very good one. I don't think it has to mean new players get pushed out at all, quite the opposite infact. Of course I haven't worked out every detail of it, but here's a rough sketch of how I believe a better game setup than today's might be (the numbers I use don't have to be final, they're just for example's sake).

Alliances:
- People sign up to the game and alliances are created.
- Everybody has until the end of protection to join an alliance. They do this by submitting an application which the alliance can choose to accept or reject.
- Players who, by the end of protection, haven't joined an alliance yet get placed in c200 until they log in. When they do they are placed randomly in one of the existing alliances.
- Alliances that by tick 72 don't contain at least 20 members are disbanded (exception for PATSA) and the members are placed in c200 until they log in.
- Alliances can contain 60 private joiners and an unlimited number of random joiners.
- Alliance score is calced from the top 40 private joiners and top half (or so) of the random joiners (an equal number of random players for each alliance).

Galaxies:
- Alliances set up galaxies and have passwords for these. They can set up as many as they want, but each galaxy has a maximum of 16 free spots, where a private joiner takes up two spots and a random joiner takes up one. This means in turn that a galaxy can contain 8 privates or 16 randoms or a mix of the two (e.g. 5 privates and 6 randoms)
- When a player (private) joins an alliance he can use one of the alliance's galaxy passwords to be placed in the galaxy of choice. If he doesn't he will be randomly placed in one of the alliance's gals (though he will still take up two galaxy spots), as will all the random joiners.

Players:
- Once a player has joined an alliance he can not be kicked out, but inactivity will still get him placed in c200 if set unwanted by the alliance.
- Alliances can, for a fee, relocate a planet to a different, randomly selected gal that has free space. (Might have to think this better through)
- Private joiners can self exile from the alliance for a very steep price and become a random in another alliance. Random joiners can not self exile. (Might have to reconsider this as well)

Possible benefits and drawbacks from this kind of setup:
- Every player in the active universe will belong to an alliance, which means randoms and beginners get a good platform to start from as they automatically belong to an active community.
- Since a lot of them will count towards alliance score it will be in every alliance's interest, even the top alliances, to educate and help these become better players. Once they have been trained their playing experience will become more fun and they are more likely to stay with the game for coming rounds - possibly even as private joiners with the same alliance that taught them.
- It will be possible to set up private gals for those who wish. By having all gal members in the same alliance we avoid ultra fenced gals and pave way for more alliance wars.
- There's a good chance this will either lead to a bigger gap between the top and the bottom alliances or to the game having fewer but a lot larger alliances.
- When competing for top galaxy, even with privates taking up two gal spots, it might prove to be too big an advantage to have an all private gal. Then again, that gal could also become a primary target for all enemy alliances.

I'm sure there are potentially lots of pitfalls I haven't thought of, so feel free to point them out.

Last edited by Whoops; 28 Feb 2009 at 08:06.
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Unread 8 Mar 2009, 01:33   #179
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoops View Post
Galaxies:
- Alliances set up galaxies and have passwords for these. They can set up as many as they want, but each galaxy has a maximum of 16 free spots, where a private joiner takes up two spots and a random joiner takes up one. This means in turn that a galaxy can contain 8 privates or 16 randoms or a mix of the two (e.g. 5 privates and 6 randoms)
- When a player (private) joins an alliance he can use one of the alliance's galaxy passwords to be placed in the galaxy of choice. If he doesn't he will be randomly placed in one of the alliance's gals (though he will still take up two galaxy spots), as will all the random joiners.
Does this mean that if an alliance sets up a galaxy all players within it then become in that alliance? If so im not sure this would work as I can say that i wouldnt want randomers put into my alliance who i don't know etc. So logically alliances would most likley insist that they are all made up into gals of 8 and if neccessary allocate people into gals so that there are no spaces left.

Only thing I could see though! Good ideas!
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Unread 8 Mar 2009, 20:27   #180
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Re: Bring back private galaxies...

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Originally Posted by Rio View Post
Does this mean that if an alliance sets up a galaxy all players within it then become in that alliance? If so im not sure this would work as I can say that i wouldnt want randomers put into my alliance who i don't know etc. So logically alliances would most likley insist that they are all made up into gals of 8 and if neccessary allocate people into gals so that there are no spaces left.

Only thing I could see though! Good ideas!
You join an alliance -> then you join one of their galaxies. So yes, every planet in a galaxy have to be in the same alliance.

The private joiners have the possibility to be put in a specific gal upon joining the alliance, so having all your privates in 8 planet gals and all your randoms in up to 16 planet gals is an option for the alliance. Whether or not that would be the optimal choice is another discussion.
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