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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 18:32   #51
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceres
Go out in any town where groups of young men drink and see how much respect you get.
So national service won't work in reducing crime if the people are exposed to alcohol ? It can't teach them much discipline or respect if that's the case, regardless in order to counter this we need to combine national service with an alcohol ban, this will surely cure all societies problems.

I'm yet to hear your excuse for Sweden and Finland's violent crime rate.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 18:39   #52
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
i think that this sums you up completely

'it wont affect me so why should i care'
But this isnt my attitude at all. The rich being heavily taxed in order to support a welfare state doesnt affect me, nor is it ever likely to, yet it's something which I care deeply about and find horrendously wrong.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 18:41   #53
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks
So national service won't work in reducing crime if the people are exposed to alcohol ? It can't teach them much discipline or respect if that's the case, regardless in order to counter this we need to combine national service with an alcohol ban, this will surely cure all societies problems.

I'm yet to hear your excuse for Sweden and Finland's violent crime rate.
Alcohol corrupts even the most respectful, this is unavoidable, short of a alcohol ban.

I'm yet to see figures showing Sweden and Finlands violent crime to be greater than the British for the age group i mentioned..
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 18:41   #54
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
But this isnt my attitude at all. The rich being heavily taxed in order to support a welfare state doesnt affect me, nor is it ever likely to, yet it's something which I care deeply about and find horrendously wrong.

so, the rich shouldn't be taxed? but the poor should i assume?
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 18:42   #55
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
But the Government subsidises the rich don't they Nod?
No, but I'm unsure why this is relevant?
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 18:43   #56
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
so, the rich shouldn't be taxed? but the poor should i assume?
Oh dear god man but no.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 18:43   #57
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
But this isnt my attitude at all. The rich being heavily taxed in order to support a welfare state doesnt affect me, nor is it ever likely to.
What the hell? Who are you counting as "the rich" here? You are most definitely affected by the taxation rates / welfare state in this country, as were your parents no doubt, unless you've never purchased any VAT-leviable goods.

Do you think millionaires are the only people who pay tax or something?
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 18:44   #58
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceres
Alcohol corrupts even the most respectful, this is unavoidable, short of a alcohol ban.

I'm yet to see figures showing Sweden and Finlands violent crime to be greater than the British for the age group i mentioned..
you actually have no point here.

you say 'national service makes people respectful'
he says 'actually it makes them less respectful' (and cites examples)
you say 'pfft, alcohol' (which makes no sense at all)

you ask for specific figures
he gives you general figures
you ask for specific figures again in the hope that they go against a dramatic trend in the general ones

do you see why you aren't winning?
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 18:44   #59
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
What the hell? Who are you counting as "the rich" here? You are most definitely affected by the taxation rates / welfare state in this country, as were your parents no doubt, unless you've never purchased any VAT-leviable goods.

Do you think millionaires are the only people who pay tax or something?
I think nod was talking more along the lines of capital gains tax.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 18:46   #60
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

i think that nod was talking more along the lines of out of his arse
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 18:46   #61
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
What the hell? Who are you counting as "the rich" here? You are most definitely affected by the taxation rates / welfare state in this country, as were your parents no doubt, unless you've never purchased any VAT-leviable goods.

Do you think millionaires are the only people who pay tax or something?
I was more meaning something like "I wouldnt be directly affected by a proposal to increase the upper band of income taxation in order to fund social programs XYZ", but I can see why what I wrote didnt make this clear.

The majority of tax funds come from the top few percent in the country - the idea of an 'average tax payer' who is somehow losing money to immigrants and single mothers is nonsense upon stilts.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 18:49   #62
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

What about those that have a large inheritance, or those living with parents? They cost nothing (less than students or conscripts).

Being in education wouldn't actually stop them committing crimes; it doesn't provide them with any money. Some young people just fancy some time off before 'entering the real world', and why shouldn't they. Adult life is hard enough without being forced quickly into labour to prevent involuntary armed service?

Why would this only apply to those 16-18, or 16-21? Why not force everybody out of work into the armed services? Lost your job at the steel works? No need to worry my friend, because you are going on a peacekeeping mission to Serbia! What's that? Dont fancy it? In that case, you're going to jail! Problem solved.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 18:50   #63
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by LHC
What about those that have a large inheritance.
duh those who have rich parents are the ones that need to learn discipline and humility the most
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 18:52   #64
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

why, does having rich parents make you automatically ill-diciplined or something?
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 18:54   #65
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
you actually have no point here.

you say 'national service makes people respectful'
he says 'actually it makes them less respectful' (and cites examples)
you say 'pfft, alcohol' (which makes no sense at all)

you ask for specific figures
he gives you general figures
you ask for specific figures again in the hope that they go against a dramatic trend in the general ones

do you see why you aren't winning?

I said respect is a skill which can be learned during national service, correct.

He then said, it makes them less respecful and cited an example which is in no way limited to just servicemen and women. As is well established, binge drinking is a serious problem in this country and regardless of an individual's past alcohol will turn them into a completely different person. You cannot judge a person by their behaviour whilst binge drinking. This isnt a respect issue, more a culture issue.

With regards to the figures, i'm not in the habit of arguing statistics without the correctly validated ones infront of me.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 18:56   #66
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceres
He then said, it makes them less respecful and cited an example which is in no way limited to just servicemen and women. As is well established, binge drinking is a serious problem in this country and regardless of an individual's past alcohol will turn them into a completely different person. You cannot judge a person by their behaviour whilst binge drinking. This isnt a respect issue, more a culture issue.
surely if they are usually more respectful, when drunk they will be, if any different, more respectful rather than less? and if they're so disciplined, surely they won't be binge drinking in the first place?

is it possible your perception and reality dont quite correspond?
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 18:58   #67
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

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Originally Posted by ceres
I said respect is a skill which can be learned during national service, correct.
What does the word 'respect' mean here? To me, respect involves the conscious and voluntary decision of an individual to treat another person in a certain way, due to a favourable response to that person's character such as his values, intelligence, or integrity. I don't think that this could be learned in a national service environment - instead you would have a situation where someone learns to act in a certain manner due to fear of being disciplined if they do otherwise. Perhaps this is what 'respect' means to you and, if so, I don't think it's a particularly valuable thing for people to learn.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 18:59   #68
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

NCO's are trouble to loads of 'garrison' towns across the country this is fact.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 18:59   #69
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Your talking about respect, dicipline and education as the same thing.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 19:30   #70
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The majority of tax funds come from the top few percent in the country
Not really. The top 10% of income tax payers share about 50% of the burden of income tax*. However, income tax only constitutes a proportion of government income. A lot of the rest which comes from direct taxes (VAT, duty on fags + booze) is a lot more evenly shared. I don't have any stats to hand on totals (and I suspect they're hard to obtain) but it's probably something like the top 15-20% pay 50% of the total tax burden.

Not that these things are terribly meaningful since anyone who is even a vaguely skilled business person (i.e. genuinely wealthy, not some shitty salaried person) will be avoiding paying large sums of tax on a regular basis. That is after all the point of accountants.

* = (Source : Inland Revenue)
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 19:34   #71
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Well, there's various corporate taxes and the like as well. And the wealthy pay a lot more sales tax than the poor/average (yes it's regressive, but they spend significantly more).
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 20:41   #72
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Everyone has some skils. If you abandoned the welfare state you would see the value of labour drop and people would start doing totally ridiculous worthless "jobs" as in the third world. If you go to South Africa, there are kids who are about 9/10 who help you park your car (i.e. motion you to the curb, etc) and then ask for twenty pence or maybe a quid to "watch your car" (i.e. not vandalise it). There are people who go round the streets collecting glass bottles to recycle them (you get about 5p per bottle delivered). You'd also have people pumping your petrol for you and this sort of thing for a minimal wage or maybe tips only. Everyone becomes an entrepeneur of sorts because you have to be to eek out a living.

I don't agree with Nod's approach obviously but it's important to realise what he's talking about and not just assume he's being totally ludicrous.
I agree with what you write Dante, but thats just part of the picture. There is still hunger in South-Africa, there is shitloads of crime (my mother got shot at when she was there) and such a labour market breads ineffecient use of labour. Besides that you also get increased demand for police, security guards for those who can pay for it and prisions becouse of the crime.

The one thing I dont agree on is that "Everyone becomes an entrepeneur of sorts". People who are born with so little resources, maybe even without parents, tend to not be very good at taking iniatives.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 20:45   #73
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Shoulnd't it be less about how many £, but more of a case of how much respectively?

Those on low income still pay more of their cash respectively than those with higher income.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 20:50   #74
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by *donkie*
Shoulnd't it be less about how many £, but more of a case of how much respectively?
Why exactly? I know we tell children that it's the thought that counts, but this is pretty much meaningless once you've moved past the level of birthday presents. If I were starving and had the choice between receiving £5000 by someone on a £15000 salary, and £50000 by someone maknig a million a year, I know which one I'd be most grateful for.

The contributions of those making £15000 a year are neglible. The apparatus of government is largely funded by those who produce the most money.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 21:05   #75
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

It's not a case of "i'm starving and I want money". It's a case of "I am a single mother raising two children on low income and I pay 60% of my income in tax leaving me with pittance. Yet, someone who is earning a million a year is paying x% lower than me of their income and they're still rolling in it, and I'm struggling."

From your above income, I'd be more greatful; for the person giving up 1/3 of their salary whilst on low income - a millionaire can afford to pay slightly more tax to allieviate the poor.

And if the contruibutions of those making £15k a year are so negligable, then theoretically they should be able to ask for less tax.

Yet they dont, and the poorest families are still left paying the majority of their income, putting them in a worse of situation.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 21:05   #76
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The contributions of those making £15000 a year are neglible. The apparatus of government is largely funded by those who produce the most money.
Negative. The Senior Citizens in Norway pay more in direct tax than bizniss does.

The 1-3% of the citizens who owns bizniss pays next to nothing, becouse they take out their profits from owning companies, not from working. Thats tax free in Norway, and Im pretty sure its that in GB too. However, if you take your salery from actually working, its easily 35% tax.

(Then there is the whole thing of were the rich money came from. They come from the working people, who create added value.)
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 21:07   #77
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

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Norway
socialist shithole, dont care
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 21:11   #78
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by *donkie*
It's not a case of "i'm starving and I want money". It's a case of "I am a single mother raising two children on low income and I pay 60% of my income in tax leaving me with pittance. Yet, someone who is earning a million a year is paying x% lower than me of their income and they're still rolling in it, and I'm struggling."
In that case she shouldnt have had kids. It's not his fault that he is more successful than her, nor should he be forced to support her simply because he is in a superior position. In any case, the poor derive benefits from the productive that dont involve stolen money - such as cheaper products, more access to facilities, etc etc. Most successful entrepreneurs could pay zero tax and still be "contributing more to society" than the average person.

Quote:
And if the contruibutions of those making £15k a year are so negligable, then theoretically they should be able to ask for less tax.
They do pay less tax - x% of £15000 is a lot less than x% of £100000.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 21:14   #79
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
socialist shithole, dont care
And yet one of the only countries in the western world not to have a pensions crisis, as far as I last heard.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 21:19   #80
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by *donkie*
And yet one of the only countries in the western world not to have a pensions crisis, as far as I last heard.
I imagine its easier to fund pensions when you have a lower rate income tax of 28%, extending to nearly 60% for higher earners, in addition to a 24% sales tax. How much does someone in a well-paying job actually get to spend - 19% of what he earns?
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 21:19   #81
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by *donkie*
And yet one of the only countries in the western world not to have a pensions crisis, as far as I last heard.
Not correct.
Our right-conservative coalition who currently is in goverment has fabricated such a claim.
With the backing of our former socialdemocratic Labour party.

There is no crisis in our pension system today, and the so-called crisis that they claim will hit us in 2030 is easily avoided by raising taxes with 0.1% or so.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 21:21   #82
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I imagine its easier to fund pensions when you have a lower rate income tax of 28%, extending to nearly 60% for higher earners, in addition to a 24% sales tax.
25% VAT, 11% on food, tnx you.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 21:21   #83
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

well now i am confused.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 21:22   #84
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
In that case she shouldnt have had kids.
What in the name of greek buggery are you advocating here? That she should have her children removed? What about the rising number of divorcees who have the children but still have a low income? The majority of divorce cases end with the mother with majority child custody, and yet its usually the woman on a lower-paid job - does this mean we should take her children away? I don't understand what you're saying here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
It's not his fault that he is more successful than her, nor should he be forced to support her simply because he is in a superior position.
If he dosn't want to pay taxes then he can go to a different country, if a country with no obligatory taxes exists; if he is accepting to stay in the UK then he is accepting of the social contract, which currently involves paying taxes to support a sucessful welfare state. (note, the WS isn't brilliant, but in 95%+ of the cases it does its job).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
They do pay less tax - x% of £15000 is a lot less than x% of £100000.
If you looked at my example, it's all about being able to afford. x% of 15000 is a higher percentage of y% of £1000000. On a salary of £15k, could you afford to pay £5k+ in tax and still have enough expandable cash to raise children, or enjoy the quality of life you have? Because I'm pretty sure that you could live a comfortable life on an income of £1000000 where 75% of it goes to tax - because I know i sure as hell bloody could.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 21:39   #85
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by *donkie*
What in the name of greek buggery are you advocating here? That she should have her children removed? What about the rising number of divorcees who have the children but still have a low income? The majority of divorce cases end with the mother with majority child custody, and yet its usually the woman on a lower-paid job - does this mean we should take her children away? I don't understand what you're saying here.
I was suggesting that she probably shouldnt have had children if she was a single mother with no means to support them. Given that she already has them, I'm not advocating anything in particular other than that the government stops giving her other people's money.


Quote:
If he dosn't want to pay taxes then he can go to a different country, if a country with no obligatory taxes exists; if he is accepting to stay in the UK then he is accepting of the social contract, which currently involves paying taxes to support a sucessful welfare state. (note, the WS isn't brilliant, but in 95%+ of the cases it does its job).
Social contract theory is bullshit and you can justify almost anything that way ("If you want to be black, go to Africa!").


Quote:
If you looked at my example, it's all about being able to afford. x% of 15000 is a higher percentage of y% of £1000000. On a salary of £15k, could you afford to pay £5k+ in tax and still have enough expandable cash to raise children, or enjoy the quality of life you have? Because I'm pretty sure that you could live a comfortable life on an income of £1000000 where 75% of it goes to tax - because I know i sure as hell bloody could.
This isnt the point though. I'm sure you could live a comfortable life without a television and computer, but this wouldnt justify me stealing these from you and giving them to poor people. The question isnt whether rich people are CAPABLE of supporting the poor, its whether they should be forced into doing so.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 21:43   #86
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I was suggesting that she probably shouldnt have had children if she was a single mother with no means to support them.
PROTIP: SHE PROBABLY WASN'T SINGLE WHEN SHE CONCIEVED THEM.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 21:46   #87
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
PROTIP: SHE PROBABLY WASN'T SINGLE WHEN SHE CONCIEVED THEM.
It's odd that a certain class of people seem to do worse, on average, than everyone else when it comes to predicting the future of their relationships and career for the purposes of deciding whether to continue a pregnancy.

You dont become a mother when you 'conceive' a child, you become a mother when you give birth.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 22:15   #88
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

So what do you propose Gordon?

Obliterate income tax and tax consumables/the transfer of property more to compensate? I'm unsure if that would work.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 22:21   #89
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Obliterate income tax and tax consumables/the transfer of property more to compensate?
I dont think we need the latter part of that statement. Though I would suggest phasing out rather than obliterating.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 22:25   #90
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
It's odd that a certain class of people seem to do worse, on average, than everyone else when it comes to predicting the future of their relationships and career for the purposes of deciding whether to continue a pregnancy.
Its not odd at all.
Just like I predict that my friend would get a child with his child-obessesed stupid gf, after meeting her for the first time.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 22:47   #91
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I dont think we need the latter part of that statement. Though I would suggest phasing out rather than obliterating.
The rise in the latter half need only be minor with the increase in spending that will inevitably arise from falling income tax.

Presumably income tax would be driven down until the state started losing money from the deal.

The money has to come from somewhere and I can't see another option but up taxes such as VAT to cushion it.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 22:54   #92
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
The rise in the latter half need only be minor with the increase in spending that will inevitably arise from falling income tax.
.
But why raise it at all? I think it should be cut along with the income tax. My reasons for opposing income tax involve the fact that 90% of the actions carried out by a modern state are illegitimate and should cease to exist. What is the extra money actually needed for? I'm not suggesting that we should remove income tax and look to other sources for money to fund social programs, I'm saying that the programs themselves should be scrapped.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 23:08   #93
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Why exactly? I know we tell children that it's the thought that counts, but this is pretty much meaningless once you've moved past the level of birthday presents. If I were starving and had the choice between receiving £5000 by someone on a £15000 salary, and £50000 by someone maknig a million a year, I know which one I'd be most grateful for.

The contributions of those making £15000 a year are neglible. The apparatus of government is largely funded by those who produce the most money.

Nod, seriously, either back your agruments up with figures or stop talking shit, you know nothing about what you are talking about
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 23:17   #94
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The contributions of those making £15000 a year are neglible.
On an individual level this might be true but taken as a whole it is not. Don't you think governments would simply buy the votes of that group if this was the case? Someone earning £15,000 probably pays about £5k in direct taxes. Once you factor in indirect taxes (about 20% of their income give or take) you might be talking £7k in tax per individual. Now this might be negligible but once you factor in the vast number of people on roughly this wage (and those just above it in the £25k - £15k range) you start to talk about a sizable proportion of total income tax receipts.

Whether someone is a net recepient or contributor is of course not as simple as looking at their income. I earn a relatively low amount (compared to the top few percent who allegedly fund everything) but I don't have kids, don't use public hospitals, don't drive, etc.
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The apparatus of government is largely funded by those who produce the most money.
Wrong. Government is funded by those across the spectrum but especially those who earn the most money. If you can't tell the difference between earning and producing then there is very little hope for you. A senior civil servant on £120k administering some totally worthless arts council or something pays vastly more tax than someone working in a factory or even a small business man who "generates" (this is a dubious notion but you know what I mean) income through his own efforts. Taxes occur on profits and earning not turnover or production. A company (or individual as a business agent) could increase production two, ten or a hundred fold and end up paying less tax (or direct taxes at least).
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 23:23   #95
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

as i said, nod knows not of what he talks
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 23:39   #96
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Oh yeah and one more thing : Even though wealthier people obviously spend more money they are also far more likely to spend (more of) their money on things which do not attract VAT (or taxation in the same form) - most specifically savings, pensions and investments.

In addition poorer people (who are more likely to rent) are penalised tax-wise compared to someone who is paying a mortgage (which is effectively a tax-free investment, and not even counted as a capital gain when the house is sold).
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 23:50   #97
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

i do hope dante that your message is 'the poor shouldn't be taxed' rather than 'the poor suffer the rich should to'
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 23:56   #98
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

I don't believe in taxation of any form. Nodrog just has a habit of getting over excited sometimes and saying things which aren't strictly true.
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Unread 4 Apr 2005, 23:59   #99
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

taxation in some form has to occur, as otherwise there can be no form of public spending, hence no NHS, no schools, no roads etc, you get the idea


i do agree that any from of across the board tax is intrinsically unfair, but as we do need some form of taxation, then there could be worse ways than the current (there could be a lot better ways as well, but what nod suggests simply wouldn't/couldn't work)
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Unread 5 Apr 2005, 00:02   #100
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Re: The new underclass in Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
taxation in some form has to occur, as otherwise there can be no form of public spending, hence no NHS, no schools, no roads etc, you get the idea


i do agree that any from of across the board tax is intrinsically unfair, but as we do need some form of taxation, then there could be worse ways than the current (there could be a lot better ways as well, but what nod suggests simply wouldn't/couldn't work)
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