The new underclass in Britain

[Ste]

Meet the 'Neets'

They aren't chavs, they aren't asylum seekers. They are people who are not in education, employment or training. They number 1.1m and they are 22 times more likely to be teenage mothers; 50% more likely to suffer from poor health; 60% more likely to be involved with drugs and more than 20 times more likely to become criminals.
They cost our country billions of pounds.

So, what do you think should be done?

I'm quite liking the suggestion of a choice at 16 of national service or further education.
National service could involve the fire service, the ambulance service, the armed forces etc.
This way they are given employment and also give something back to the country.

I also like the bit at the end of the article showing the three main parties solutions:

THE PARTY POLITICS

LABOUR

A target to cut the number of Neets by about 20% by 2010

Establishing new vocational qualifications and specialist vocational schools to give Neets practical skills o Restructuring the benefit system to reward those in work, education or training

The introduction of anti-social behaviour orders (Asbos) and curfews to control Neets who step out of line

CONSERVATIVES

New special turnaround schools for highly-disruptive children and more discipline in classrooms

Scrapping Labour’s ‘New Deal’ employment programme while offering Neet youngsters special vocational grants

Zero-tolerance policing, combined with a 25% rise in prison places

A greater role for charities and voluntary organisations in helping Neets

LIBERAL DEMOCRATS

Increasing taxes to fund a big increase in the education budget

Offering more personalised tutoring in smaller classes

Recruiting 10,000 more police officers

Excellent, more police and prison places... that'll solve the problem

[ceres]

Whats the difference between them and 'chavs'? And cant we just bundle them both up into the 'Scumbag' group?
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Unleashed cam

[pig]

Well I dont know if anyone watched it but Lads Army addressed many problems which I can see. If by 18 you are not in Full time education or Full time work, I believe that you should do national service. This for me would change many peoples lives, but would also show them that they have an avenue to go down to get money and respect.

[Ste]

i'd say a lot of chavs are neets but not all neets are chavs...
anyway, solutions are more useful than catagorising.

[MrL_JaKiri]

I'm not in employment, education or training.

[Ste]

T&F - they are costing the country billions. They are the group mainly responsible for a lot of crime in this country. They are a nuisance to the majority and a lot of them live in poverty.
I'm sure they'd appreciate being given a chance to do something with their life. As the family said at the end of the article.

[lokken]

the state only exists to create institutions as instruments of power to classify and villify delinquents so that they can be normalised or segregated from society.

[pig]

Originally Posted by Ste

T&F - they are costing the country billions. They are the group mainly responsible for a lot of crime in this country. They are a nuisance to the majority and a lot of them live in poverty.
I'm sure they'd appreciate being given a chance to do something with their life. As the family said at the end of the article.

[pig]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

I'm not in employment, education or training.

national service for you then :P unless ofc youre over 21

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by pig

national service for you then :P unless ofc youre over 21

I either am or am not depending on what you mean by "over 21".

[G.K Zhukov]

The Conservative approach of "Zero-tolerance policing, combined with a 25% rise in prison places ", is stupid.

a) It doesnt solve the problem permanently, as they will most likely continue on the same track as before.
b) Its very costly
c) The people sent behind bars does not learn the skills needed to be employed when they get out.

[pig]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

I either am or am not depending on what you mean by "over 21".

well 21 and over

ie if ure born in 1983 before April

[Ste]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

The Conservative approach of "Zero-tolerance policing, combined with a 25% rise in prison places ", is stupid.

a) It doesnt solve the problem permanently, as they will most likely continue on the same track as before.
b) Its very costly
c) The people sent behind bars does not learn the skills needed to be employed when they get out.

And Labours solution is Asbo's and Lib dems is more police... None of which really provide a solution.

I also thought it was funny that Labours response was "introduce a target of 20% less neets by 2010"

we have a problem with x, introduce target promising to reduce x by y% by the year z.
comedy.

[Stew]

Originally Posted by pig

well 21 and over

ie if ure born in 1983 before April

You mean 1984?

Anyway, I remember readng that article when it was in the newspaper itself. It's not often you get to call something on the internet 'old' because you've seen it in a newspaper.

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally Posted by Ste

And Labours solution is Asbo's and Lib dems is more police... None of which really provide a solution.

I also thought it was funny that Labours response was "introduce a target of 20% less neets by 2010"

we have a problem with x, introduce target promising to reduce x by y% by the year z.
comedy.

Absos are prob a hell of a lot cheaper than building more prisions.

Ofc, its an election year, thats why they focus on "WE HAVE TARGET"

[Ninja_spammer]

National service is no longer a viable idea tbh, it would completely **** up our current military budget not to mention be against our current army configuration IE a 'small' group of well trained, well equipped (thats the idea...) and dedicated professionals .

Not to mention the fact that the army was never a good career choice if you want usable skills in civvy street unless you went into one of the technical/support area...engineers/sappers/logistics which most dont.


As for the usual tory stance of 'throw em in jail' .....well thats why they still are not a serious opposition.

[pig]

Originally Posted by Stew

You mean 1984?.

ye

[lokken]

I'd propose a 'public service' whereby this category are given various tasks and skills by working in various projects in the community in return for an allowance of some kind, while giving them some time during the week to find a job.

On top of that reorganise the education system to allow for practical colleges for those who clearly aren't cut out for academics and have already learned literacy/numeracy skills.

[Ste]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

Well I would like to see some evidence of that. Furthermore presumably education and National service also costs the country billions. When you say they are mainly responsible for crime again I would like to see some figures for that assertion.

They were quoted in the article.
Of course education and national service cost, but the country would benefit from having a more educated population, less crime and more workers in the public services.

Living in poverty seems like a reason to help them rather than condemn them. Whilst everyone appreciates having opportunities, it would also be nice if they had a choice about accepting that opportunity. I am not sure I see anyone pointing to the countries with national service and saying they are crime free, low tax, utopias.

I'm certainly not condemning them. I'm suggesting a way to help them not get into the situation in the first place. And provide ways to get out if they do.
This country is one of the worst in europe for crime, teenage pregnancies etc isn't it?

It just seems like a reactionary blame culture. "Hmm how do we solve the problems of the country? Lets blame the poor and disenfranchised for being poor and dienfranchised."

"But what about those corporations who do so much damege to society and the environment?" But they create wealth so nothing they do can be bad."

Oh I agree, there are problems with corporations but that is a different matter.

"Couldn't we sort out the education system? Yes but that's too complicated, better to pick a minority group and blame them for all the problems in the country."

The education system certainly needs sorting out as well. All three main parties suggest changes to the education system in order to improve the country. How useful they would be is another matter.


Incidentally - I said National service not Military service, the military could be just one of the options.

[wu_trax]

to increase the spending on education is always a good idea. ofc that doesn't help woth those who already screwed up their lives, so to hire more police is also a good idea, at least temporarily until the problem is fixed by the better education. id go with the liberal democrats.

[Marilyn Manson]

Let them eat asbestos.

[roadrunner_0]

create reserviors that are dedicated to providing water to council estates, spike said reserviors with sterilising agent, this would solve the neet teenage pregnancy problem. force them into doing some sort of community service for their dole, rather than falsifying what jobs they have applied for this week to get their thursday morning handout.

of course, the measures i suggest are far too extreme, but i have a skewed view as i live in one of the most disadvantaged areas of the country and am sick of seeing these so called 'neets' (more properly called scum, scumbags, chavs, etc etc) get away with blue murder and putting nothing into our society as a whole whilst leaching off the rest of us

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

Well I would like to see some evidence of that. Furthermore presumably education and National service also costs the country billions. When you say they are mainly responsible for crime again I would like to see some figures for that assertion.

National service does cost money. Look at Norway, Sweden and Finland fx. On the benefit side, it can give alot back, and teach the people participating some skills and give them life experience.
Problem with Neefs and national service is that they are probably not going to be able to do it.
This is based on my own experience in the army, we have a couple of chavs in my platoon, and they were trown out (partly becouse you needed security clearence to be in the signals battalion, and they had police records).
So why do I think they wont be able to do it?
a) lack of disipline
b) anti-social behavior
c) very little skills

Do you really want these people to do important jobs, like health care? Would you really want to give these folks a gun and ammo?

I belive you have to start earlier than the age of 16. Most people are formed before that.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Ste

So, what do you think should be done?

I'm quite liking the suggestion of a choice at 16 of national service or further education.
National service could involve the fire service, the ambulance service, the armed forces etc.
This way they are given employment and also give something back to the country.

Yeah, bringing back slavery is a far better idea than not giving money to people without jobs.

[Ste]

they would get paid fs.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Ste

T&F - they are costing the country billions..

"They" arent costing the country anything. If your government insists on giving them other people's money, then perhaps you should focus your criticism on said government?

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Ste

they would get paid fs.

So if I round up black people and physically force them to pick cotton for £10 an hour, this wouldnt be slavery?

[Ste]

that would be forced employment.

Anyway, I already criticise said government. But it's not just benefit costs, it's also crime costs.

What would your solution be?

[roadrunner_0]

ok nod, come up with something better then, you seem to always criticise but never actually offer up anything remotely resembling a good idea of your own... so come on:

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Ste

that would be forced employment.
What would your solution be?

If there's a problem needing solved, then it stems entirely from the way you're looking at the situation rather than being anything inherant. A gradual move away from welfare statism would prevent them 'costing the country millions', and it's a matter of complete indifference what happens to the actual individuals.

[*donkie*]

Yes, let's leave them in their lives filled with squalor, want, idleness, ignorance and disease

[ceres]

Your quite right nod, but this isnt going to do much to deal with the millions already leeching off the state.
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Wild_Eva

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

If there's a problem needing solved, then it stems entirely from the way you're looking at the situation rather than being anything inherant. A gradual move away from welfare statism would prevent them 'costing the country millions', and it's a matter of complete indifference what happens to the actual individuals.

Becouse when they starve, they wont steal food?

[roadrunner_0]

Originally Posted by ceres

Your quite right nod, but this isnt going to do much to deal with the millions already leeching off the state.

no, he isn't right, due to that fact that as with the last thread on anything like this subject, he is just quoting pithy lines that vaguely relate to the problem at hand without actually having an opinion of his own and thinking he is clever
in essence, he has fallen into the trap of believing his own propaganda about how clever he is and how he can win any argument

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

Becouse when they starve, they wont steal food?

It's highly unlikely that they would starve, and the ones who decided to steal food could be punished by the legal system in the exact same way they are now.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by roadrunner_0

no, he isn't right, due to that fact that as with the last thread on anything like this subject, he is just quoting pithy lines that vaguelt relate to the problem at hand

No, there simply isnt a problem here. It's as if I were to ask you what you were going to do about the problem of all the brown haired people. Your only sensible reply would be "What problem?"

What you class as being 'problems' are actually specific consequences of the existing political system. They would be removed as a side effect of changing this system.

[ceres]

Originally Posted by roadrunner_0

no, he isn't right, due to that fact that as with the last thread on anything like this subject, he is just quoting pithy lines that vaguelt relate to the problem at hand without actually having an opinion of his own and thinking he is clever
in essence, he has fallen into the trap of believing his own propaganda about how clever he is and how he can win any argument

Yes, i appear to have misunderstood his post, i thought his idea of moving away from welfare was to develop education rather than just casting them out.

He is just spouting drivel
________
Nastydoll2 Live

[Dead_Meat]

Last time I looked, the stats said that keeping someone in jail costs approx £30k a year. There are currently 67,383 or so in jail.

Well, if the Tories combined their '25%' more people, thats another £500 million we'll need to spend keeping them there.
If the Tories want to get 25% more in jail, go ahead, but at least combine it with some sort of forced labour that will get these twats working and costing us less.

Look at The Shawshank Redemption, the Governor there had his inmates out in the fields and on the roads providing a valuable resource, I say we do the same thing, except maybe without the torture and violence, but only maybe...

[roadrunner_0]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

No, there simply isnt a problem here. It's as if I were to ask you what you were going to do about the problem of all the brown hair people. Your only sensible reply would be "What problem?"

of course there is a problem, this is neither the dark ages where we can just abandon a whole class of society to poverty, squallor and eventual death. Neither is it an age of enlightenment, where if you cut off welfare, they would realise that it was for the greater good and all go out and be able to get jobs
basically nod, once again, you are talking about an ideal world, which, much as we would all like to see it, simply isn't going to happen

for all of the 'hilarity' of my first post, i would be the first to say that the only way that we can actually change society as a whole, is by small reasoned steps, to increase education for the masses (not by trying to attain university targets either, but basic education) and generally make sure that everyone can be part of society, rather than having a class of undesirables such as we have today

[Hicks]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

Why? (to pig)

What could be a bad idea about teaching them to kill and fight properly before sending them back out into society with no new skills I hope you aren't trying to suggest that a reality tv show may not be the best way to solve the countries problems T&F

[Phang]

frankly i don't know the solution to people being wilfully poor and ignorant. but i'm pretty sure slavery, imprisonment and starvation are 'not the answer'

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

It's highly unlikely that they would starve, and the ones who decided to steal food could be punished by the legal system in the exact same way they are now.

They have no income, so how would they not starve? They have no social-skills, they have no job skills, so who would employ them?

[ceres]

Originally Posted by Hicks

What could be a bad idea about teaching them to kill and fight properly before sending them back out into society with no new skills I hope you aren't trying to suggest that a reality tv show may not be the best way to solve the countries problems T&F

I'd be interested to know the numbers of assaults commited by 19-25 year olds in Scandinavian countries by people having completed their national service. I'd be extremely suprised if it wasnt a very small percentage compared with Britain's 19-25's.

With regards to your "no new skills" comment, dicipline and respect are two valuable skills.
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Park Royal 1 Pattaya

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by roadrunner_0

of course there is a problem, this is neither the dark ages where we can just abandon a whole class of society to poverty, squallor and eventual death.

Why not?

Neither is it an age of enlightenment, where if you cut off welfare, they would realise that it was for the greater good and all go out and be able to get jobs

To be honest, I'm entirely uninterested what happens to them. Some might go out and get jobs, some might starve, it doesnt matter.

basically nod, once again, you are talking about an ideal world, which, much as we would all like to see it, simply isn't going to happen

How is anything I say related to an ideal world?

for all of the 'hilarity' of my first post, i would be the first to say that the only way that we can actually change society as a whole, is by small reasoned steps, to increase education for the masses (not by trying to attain university targets either, but basic education) and generally make sure that everyone can be part of society, rather than having a class of undesirables such as we have today

Most of this is hopelessly vague. Everyone has access to 'basic' education at present, and I've no idea what being 'part of society' means. In any case, I'm proposing small reasoned steps - it would be insanity to demolish the welfare state overnight, it would have to be dismantled piece by piece over 50 years or so.

[Hicks]

Originally Posted by ceres

I'd be interested to know the numbers of assaults commited by 19-25 year olds in Scandinavian countries by people having completed their national service. I'd be extremely suprised if it wasnt a very small percentage compared with Britain's 19-25's.

With regards to your "no new skills" comment, dicipline and respect are two valuable skills.

Go out in Aldershot or Colchester or any other garrison town and see how much respect the squaddies pay you.

Violent crimes per 100,000 of the population:
Sweden 705
United Kingdom 504
Finland 449

Looks like National Service solved that problem. Thanks for coming out though

[ceres]

Nodrog have you considered a career writing party manifesto's for the Conservatives?
________
Wellbutrin Injury Lawyer

[ceres]

Originally Posted by Hicks

go out in Aldershot or Colchester or any other garrison town and see how much respect the squaddies pay you.

Go out in any town where groups of young men drink and see how much respect you get.
________
The Cliff Condos Cosy Beach

[roadrunner_0]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

Why not?

To be honest, I'm entirely uninterested what happens to them. Some might go out and get jobs, some might starve, it doesnt matter.

i think that this sums you up completely

'it wont affect me so why should i care'

once again, your attitude is wrong, and, more importantly, just plain stupid.

there are none so blind as those that will not see, and you nod, most definately fall into that category

[Dante Hicks]

Everyone has some skils. If you abandoned the welfare state you would see the value of labour drop and people would start doing totally ridiculous worthless "jobs" as in the third world. If you go to South Africa, there are kids who are about 9/10 who help you park your car (i.e. motion you to the curb, etc) and then ask for twenty pence or maybe a quid to "watch your car" (i.e. not vandalise it). There are people who go round the streets collecting glass bottles to recycle them (you get about 5p per bottle delivered). You'd also have people pumping your petrol for you and this sort of thing for a minimal wage or maybe tips only. Everyone becomes an entrepeneur of sorts because you have to be to eek out a living.

I don't agree with Nod's approach obviously but it's important to realise what he's talking about and not just assume he's being totally ludicrous.

[pyirt]

I like the bit where it mentions about reducing the neet population 20% by 2010. What are they going to do? Go out and shoot them.