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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 19:21   #1
MrL_JaKiri
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Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4665216.stm

Alito in.

This does not look like good news. Moderate replaced by Conservative, and a (relatively) inexperienced anti-abortionist Conservative as well.

Abortion is going to be a HUGE issue in the Supreme Court later this year, with Nabraska and South Dakota, among others, drafting legislature to not only make abortion illegal in those states, but also make transporting a woman out of the state to have an abortion a felony. If Roe vs Wade gets even close to even suggesting to being overturned, it'll open an astronomical can of worms. The jurisprudence of the past Supreme Court rulings, and the way in which they hold up a significant number of civil rights that are not defined in the constitution, are not things that produce good results when you question them.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 19:24   #2
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Rating judges based on their political alignment and/or stances on particular issues is stupid. The personal views of a supreme court justice are irrelevant - all that matters is their willingness to go by the letter of the constitution.

Scalia gave an excellent speech on this topic a few years back.


edit: I think Roe vs Wade was the wrong decision, and I'm a pro-abortion libertarian.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 19:27   #3
MrL_JaKiri
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Rating judges based on their political alignment and/or stances on particular issues is stupid. The personal views of a supreme court justice are irrelevant - all that matters is their willingness to go by the letter of the constitution.
Oh it's entirely possible for the judges to be impartial, or even go rogue - they're on the court for life. However, I don't think we have seen enough of Alito to make a judgement on it at this point, and the mere possibility of Roe vs Wade problems is too nightmarish to contemplate.

[edit]

Re: your edit, Roe vs Wade isn't the real issue here, it's how the court acts with respect to states drafting legislature that specifically go against Supreme Court decisions.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 19:32   #4
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Rating judges based on their political alignment and/or stances on particular issues is stupid. The personal views of a supreme court justice are irrelevant - all that matters is their willingness to go by the letter of the constitution.
I'm not sure I understand - are we supposed to ignore impact the Supreme Court has on "particular issues"?
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 19:36   #5
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I'm not sure I understand - are we supposed to ignore impact the Supreme Court has on "particular issues"?
What?

Assuming the judges are selected properly, they should have some degree of impartiality and the ability to suspend their personal beliefs on a given subject. Judges are employed to read the constitution, not to offer advice to the nation - its not important whether a given justice thinks X about Y because all that matters is his ability and willingness to correctly read what the Constitution says about Y. To go with the Roe vs Wade example, its irrelevant whether a judge personally thinks that the right to abortion is a good thing (it is), as long as he doesnt let these beliefs cloud his judgement when it comes to deciding whether the Constitution guarantees this particular right (it doesnt).

The only reason to care about the judge's personal views is if a) you dont trust the selection process (understandable these days), or b) you're in favour of judicial activism.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 19:43   #6
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

the supreme court just seems more and more like cronyism in the election process to me
i dont trust them to make the right choice -at all-
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 19:46   #7
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Assuming the judges are selected properly, they should have some degree of impartiality and the ability to suspend their personal beliefs on a given subject.
I'm not particularly fond of "judicial activism"* but that doesn't mean I can ignore the fact that the Supreme Court's ruling will have an impact on things like abortion rights, intellectual property enforcement, rights of prisoners in the war on terror, etc. I don't really believe that it is possible to consistently seperate your view on a particular issue and the justification you'd use to support / oppose it. It's a mistake to believe that someone's political ideas are held in isolation, usually there is some rough world-view which unites things.

* = I'm not a fan of such a term since any ruling could be seen as "activism" in some sense.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 19:47   #8
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

fortunately the rulings of the supreme court do not affect us.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 19:48   #9
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
the supreme court just seems more and more like cronyism in the election process to me
It's always been cronyism when you get one of the parties holding the senate and the white house. The only significant change now is that america is on one of its religious swings, with the corresponding public outcry for retarded things that this implies.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 19:49   #10
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Assuming the judges are selected properly, they should have some degree of impartiality and the ability to suspend their personal beliefs on a given subject.
problem, meet mister crux.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 19:50   #11
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
fortunately the rulings of the supreme court do not affect us.
sort of.

hypothetical situation :
president and congress decide its a good idea to take / shoot anyone they dont like in other countries because they dont say the same things they agree with. (chavez comes to mind instantly)
Supreme court, correct me if im wrong is the highest legal authority in the states, so anyone (in america) challenging the legality of such a policy would have to go there eventually no?
a supreme court, stacked with cronies would just side with their pal ( pres. ) and to hell with the right thing to do
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 19:52   #12
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I'm not particularly fond of "judicial activism"* but that doesn't mean I can ignore the fact that the Supreme Court's ruling will have an impact on things like abortion rights, intellectual property enforcement, rights of prisoners in the war on terror, etc. I don't really believe that it is possible to consistently seperate your view on a particular issue and the justification you'd use to support / oppose it. It's a mistake to believe that someone's political ideas are held in isolation, usually there is some rough world-view which unites things.
I'm not sure why, I'm perfectly capable of seperating my views on these issues from (eg) what I think the American (or Iraqi) constitution says about them. It's essentially just reading comprehension coupled with an understanding of the historical context in which the documents were written.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 19:52   #13
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
fortunately the rulings of the supreme court do not affect us.
The USA and the UK are completely isolated and never affect eachother in any way, and we shouldn't care about people in other countries.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 19:53   #14
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
hypothetical situation :
president and congress decide its a good idea to take / shoot anyone they dont like in other countries because they dont say the same things they agree with. (chavez comes to mind instantly)
I think it would be impossible for this to ever be challenged in the Supreme court (who would bring it there?).
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 19:54   #15
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
The USA and the UK are completely isolated and never affect eachother in any way.
The Law of England and Wales is totally uneffected by rulings of the American Supreme court.

But if you prefer continuing to make fatuous remarks then do carry on.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 19:56   #16
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
The Law of England and Wales is totally uneffected by rulings of the American Supreme court.
.
This isnt really true; there are indirect effects. The smoking ban debate probably wouldnt have arisen in Britain if there wasnt a precedent for it in (eg) America for instance. Ditto for the fast-food backlash and similar things.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 19:57   #17
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
The Law of England and Wales is totally uneffected by rulings of the American Supreme court.
I am affected by more things than English law, and events are not often isolated in any case.

Kill everyone in the English Department and I will not be directly affected in the slightest, but that doesn't mean it will not have an effect on my life.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 19:58   #18
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Assuming the judges are selected properly, they should have some degree of impartiality and the ability to suspend their personal beliefs on a given subject. Judges are employed to read the constitution, not to offer advice to the nation - its not important whether a given justice thinks X about Y because all that matters is his ability and willingness to correctly read what the Constitution says about Y. To go with the Roe vs Wade example, its irrelevant whether a judge personally thinks that the right to abortion is a good thing (it is), as long as he doesnt let these beliefs cloud his judgement when it comes to deciding whether the Constitution guarantees this particular right (it doesnt).
i'm not sure i understand where you are coming from.

you favor abortion, but you think it should be illegal because it doesn't say 'there shalt be abortions for everyone!' anywhere in the constitution?

i disagree with scalia. he said what he said, and argues for it, because it would lead to 'his side' winning on specific issues. but the reality is that the supreme court is the only thing in our country that can prevent majorities from pissing on minorities, and it is entirely ridiculous to pretend that the founding fathers could have conceived of every possible way majorities could try to screw their fellow man and fit it in a single document.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 20:02   #19
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
This isnt really true; there are indirect effects. The smoking ban debate probably wouldnt have arisen in Britain if there wasnt a precedent for it in (eg) America for instance. Ditto for the fast-food backlash and similar things.
It is true. Why exactly are we contradicting a lawyer on this issue?

Posters Posters quite contrary
How do your rep points grow?
With facile statements, purile spam
And of course always making a personal attack on Yahwe wherever possible so we can pretend we're tough and independant.

none of the political issues you have raised have anything to do with the rulings of the supreme court. it's a totally irrational step to try and connect the two propositions 1. "that in a global world the same political issues can crop up in similarly structured and affluent societies" and 2. "the rulings of the american supreme court affect the law of England and Wales".
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 20:03   #20
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
The only significant change now is that america is on one of its religious swings, with the corresponding public outcry for retarded things that this implies.
with the way america is going, i keep thinking back to s2-4 of babylon 5 and the way earthgov went.
theres disturbing parallels
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 20:03   #21
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
you favor abortion, but you think it should be illegal because it doesn't say 'there shalt be abortions for everyone!' anywhere in the constitution?
Yes. Having an objective system of law and governmental restrains is more important than individual issues (within reason).
Quote:
the reality is that the supreme court is the only thing in our country that can prevent majorities from pissing on minorities
America would be a far far better place today if the Supreme Court had ruled correctly on every issue from the start.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 20:04   #22
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I'm not sure why, I'm perfectly capable of seperating my views on these issues from (eg) what I think the American (or Iraqi) constitution says about them. It's essentially just reading comprehension coupled with an understanding of the historical context in which the documents were written.
is there anything you have a really strong opinion on?
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 20:04   #23
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
2. "the rulings of the american supreme court affect the law of England and Wales".
That is not what you originally said. You said we were not affected, not just our laws. Surely you appreciate there is a difference?
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 20:04   #24
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
with the way america is going, i keep thinking back to s2-4 of babylon 5 and the way earthgov went.
theres disturbing parallels
It'll go on until we get someone like Jimmy Carter, and we'll be back to talking better milage before you know it.

Re: the S2-4 comparison, the EarthGov thing is just an archetypal totalitarian kerjigger.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 20:04   #25
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
It is true. Why exactly are we contradicting a lawyer on this issue?
Because its primarilly a political issue, rather than a legal one. The laws which are passed by Parliament arent put into the heads of politicians by the ideas fairy. American case law obviously isnt considered in British courts, but that doesnt prevent it from affecting British law indirectly through (eg) influencing people involved in the system.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 20:06   #26
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
That is not what you originally said. You said we were not affected, not just our laws. Surely you appreciate there is a difference?
If gordon and mark wish to believe that the rulings of the american supreme court affect them then that is their choice.

Just as much as if they want to believe that wearing tin foil hats prevents the government from taking control of their minds then that too is their choice.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 20:09   #27
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Just as much as if they want to believe that wearing tin foil hats prevents the government from taking control of their minds then that too is their choice.
everyone knows tin foil hats amplify the mind control signals
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 20:09   #28
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

edit: fb
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 20:09   #29
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
If gordon and mark wish to believe that the rulings of the american supreme court affect them then that is their choice.
I buy things from America. I know people from America. I study with people from America. Most top level physics is done in America. I share a world with America.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Just as much as if they want to believe that wearing tin foil hats prevents the government from taking control of their minds then that too is their choice.
Tinfoil is too expensive nowadays, making it out of old CDs is the way forward.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 20:18   #30
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Yes. Having an objective system of law and governmental restrains is more important than individual issues (within reason).
i'm actually somewhat surprised to find you joining the war against governmental restraints.

anyway, i guess technically "the government can do anything it damn well pleases so long as it is run by republicans" is an objective system of law, but it feels pretty subjective to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
America would be a far far better place today if the Supreme Court had ruled correctly on every issue from the start.
i agree with you 100%. and i'm sure i would disagree with your definition of 'correctly' 100%.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 20:26   #31
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
i'm actually somewhat surprised to find you joining the war against governmental restraints.
I'm confused

Quote:
anyway, i guess technically "the government can do anything it damn well pleases so long as it is run by republicans" is an objective system of law, but it feels pretty subjective to me.
By 'objective', I mean that there should be a publically accesible, black and white specification of what the law says. As little as possible should be left to judicial interpretation, case history, or precedents. For instance, the average person should be able to know with very little effort whether a given action is legal or illegal, and have a fair idea what sort of penalties apply. They should be able to look up the Constituion and read precisely what the government is and isnt allowed to do, without having to get bogged down in 100 year long arguments over semantics, exegesis, and quibbles over the meaning of words. Allowing the Supreme Court to make things up as it goes along ('Living Constitution') does not fit well into this ideal.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 20:29   #32
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Alito has said he will not go into cases with an ideology in mind. Let's hope he sticks to his word.

I agree with nod though on the Roe vs Wade being a bit of a stretch. The thing is it's all the US has to protect this important right. The congress didn't have the balls to write legislation protecting abortion, and the current congress lacks the will entirely.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 20:32   #33
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

it wouldn't be the first time that an appointment had backfired, i genuinely hope that he does stay neutral in his views
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 20:32   #34
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
By 'objective', I mean that there should be a publically accesible, black and white specification of what the law says. As little as possible should be left to judicial interpretation, case history, or precedents. For instance, the average person should be able to know with very little effort whether a given action is legal or illegal, and have a fair idea what sort of penalties apply. They should be able to look up the Constituion and read precisely what the government is and isnt allowed to do, without having to get bogged down in 100 year long arguments over semantics, exegesis, and quibbles over the meaning of words. Allowing the Supreme Court to make things up as it goes along ('Living Constitution') does not fit well into this ideal.
But then you're basing the law on a 200 year old document, with the beliefs and constructions of that time. This is a bad idea.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 20:34   #35
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
it wouldn't be the first time that an appointment had backfired, i genuinely hope that he does stay neutral in his views
I'm hoping for Souter Mark II, but we won't be clear on that until 2010 at least.


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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 20:37   #36
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

i think there is a common misconception at play here.

the argument is that the lefties on the court don't care about the constitution at all, they just rule however whichever way their belief system pushes them, whereas the right-wing types on the court are always voting along with whatever the constitution specifically says. certainly scalia hasn't missed an oppurtunity to parrot that talking point. and certainly whoever is making that argument will point to RvW, how it had no clear constitutional basis, and lawrence vs. texas, etc. there is certainly ample evidence that SCOTUS makes left-leaning rulings that have no constitutional basis now and then.

but the fundamental argument is bullshit. the fact of the matter is that the right-leaning justices on the court don't give two shits about the constitution either. the reason they haven't made any of their own baseless rulings is that they haven't held a majority in 40 years. i don't know why people can't be bothered to look up their voting records, they aren't secret. whenever an issue has come up where the left was obviously in line with the consitution, the right-leaning justices never had any problem voting the other way (depriving someone of liberty without due process of law? right to a speedy trial? right to a public trial? right to a jury? anyone? anyone else surprised the word 'speedy' shows up in the constitution?).
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 20:40   #37
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
But then you're basing the law on a 200 year old document, with the beliefs and constructions of that time. This is a bad idea.
If the writers had realised this, they might have included some sort of procedure for amending the document
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 20:42   #38
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I'm confused
i meant that i thought you favored limited government, and fighting to pull out the restraints on government's reaching into people's lives doesn't fit with that.

apologies if i had you mixed up with someone else.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 20:44   #39
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

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Originally Posted by acropolis
i meant that i thought you favored limited government.
I do, which is why I think the sanctity of a written Constitution is so important.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 20:55   #40
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I do, which is why I think the sanctity of a written Constitution is so important.
well, you've got to make a choice.

one group wants all the limitations of the constitution to be in place (can't outlaw free speech, can't outlaw specific religions), plus a few others (can't outlaw abortion, fagg0try, etc.).

the other wants fewer limitations on government than are explicitly stated in the document (free speech is okay, as long as it doesn't include any of the BadThoughts, right to a trial, jury etc. are good too as long as the person in question isn't an EnemyofGood).

obviously perfectly intelligent people support each one. but don't pretend that there is some third option (i guess 'it doesn't matter' is arguably a third option). welcome to america, where you can only wish that it was a false dichotomy.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 20:59   #41
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
obviously perfectly intelligent people support each one. but don't pretend that there is some third option (i guess 'it doesn't matter' is arguably a third option). welcome to america, where you can only wish that it was a false dichotomy.
The third option would be a reading of the Constitution as it stands regardless of personal opinion. Scalia seems to be closer to this ideal than the rest, although I'm not claiming that he's perfect.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 21:08   #42
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The third option would be a reading of the Constitution as it stands regardless of personal opinion. Scalia seems to be closer to this ideal than the rest, although I'm not claiming that he's perfect.
Scalia is a smart man, but do you honestly believe that he's impartial?
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 21:20   #43
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The third option would be a reading of the Constitution as it stands regardless of personal opinion. Scalia seems to be closer to this ideal than the rest, although I'm not claiming that he's perfect.
in comparison to Thomas, Scalia has actually been excellent. Alito and Roberts seems more thomas than scalia, however.

Anyway, I can't help but see the issue in terms of the actual effects a given nomination will have on our society. Maybe you see some great moral principle being upheld five years from now when women are being thrown in jail for crossing state lines while pregnant, but I don't. I see a worse country. Ten years from now I see a country where Scalia may still be part of an angry minority, but a different one than before. And perhaps some intellectually honest folk will say 'well, it made sense at the time.' And it would be a worse country.
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Unread 31 Jan 2006, 21:27   #44
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Exclamation Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
It's always been cronyism when you get one of the parties holding the senate and the white house.
No, it used to be only the party holding the Presidency. The Senate, even if controlled by the other party, used to confirm any reasonably qualified candidate. That's started to change in the past 20 years, however; not with every nominee, but I suppose that's coming. :/
Quote:
The only significant change now is that america is on one of its religious swings, with the corresponding public outcry for retarded things that this implies.
If you accept the premise that the public is retarded (lol @ democracy) that sounds like an even better argument against politicizing the supreme court nomination/confirmation process.
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Unread 2 Feb 2006, 08:51   #45
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/execution...kxBHNlYwN0bQ--

lol
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Unread 4 Feb 2006, 08:02   #46
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Nice, blocks the execution of a black guy that raped and murdered a 15 year old. He should have gotten it Judeo-Bolshevist style with a bullet to the back of the head right after the trial.
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Unread 4 Feb 2006, 09:00   #47
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

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A fine start.
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Unread 4 Feb 2006, 11:58   #48
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuddley_Battleship
Nice, blocks the execution of a black guy that raped and murdered a 15 year old. He should have gotten it Judeo-Bolshevist style with a bullet to the back of the head right after the trial.
Way to go, proving that your opinion is worthless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by article
He has challenged his death sentence on the grounds that the three-drug cocktail of lethal chemicals used in executions carry the risk of undue suffering, violating the U.S. Constitution's protection against cruel and unusual punishment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by article
The way a justice votes on a stay request does not necessarily signal how the justice will rule on the merits of a death penalty case. The court earlier this week granted a similar stay of execution to another death row inmate from Florida.

Last month, the court said it would use the case of a Florida death-row inmate to decide whether last-minute challenges can be brought under the federal civil rights law to the drugs used in lethal injection.

The court appears to be holding cases that raise the same issue until it hears arguments and rules on the issue, which is expected by the end of June.
Why don't people read the entire article?
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Unread 4 Feb 2006, 13:47   #49
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuddley_Battleship
Nice, blocks the execution of a black guy that raped and murdered a 15 year old. He should have gotten it Judeo-Bolshevist style with a bullet to the back of the head right after the trial.
What does that have anything to do with nothing? Where the **** in the article does it even say he's black? ****ing racist piece of shit.
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Unread 4 Feb 2006, 13:49   #50
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Re: Supreme Court Justice confirmed.

The death penalty seems to be quite a good example of where you can't really just take the narrow "it doesn't matter what the judges personal view is" approach to this question.
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