r55 Stats debate thread

[vuLgAr]

Mid round sumup... the stats are poor this round, maybe the crayons were too blunt or some shit i dunno, but whoever let their child do stats needs to go have a quiet word with theirself.

[BloodyButcher]

Originally Posted by vuLgAr

Mid round sumup... the stats are poor this round, maybe the crayons were too blunt or some shit i dunno, but whoever let their child do stats needs to go have a quiet word with themselves.

I think the stats are interesting enough.

[Androme]

Most retarded stats I can remember for a long time tbh.

[Blue_Esper]

this is a recurring theme with this rounds stats maker. hopefully PATeam wake up to the fact that some people shouldn't make stats.




EVER.

[Scott]

Terrible terrible stats! Ruins rounds! Should be able to change race when in anarchy, keep all res/cons and get same value in ships! Bad, bad stats.

[Paisley]

who made the stats this round?

[BloodyButcher]

i dont get it.
Whats wrong with the stats?
And looking back at it now, saying you should be able to change race, what race would you rather be?

[Blue_Esper]

they're broken

[Mzyxptlk]

Originally Posted by Paisley

who made the stats this round?

Tia.

[BloodyButcher]

Originally Posted by Blue_Esper

they're broken

excelent reply....

[Hunterrrr]

Originally Posted by BloodyButcher

i dont get it.
Whats wrong with the stats?
And looking back at it now, saying you should be able to change race, what race would you rather be?

The one with the best kill ships ofc zik.

Tia ofc made stats,

He is in love with ZIK.

I made a calc today attacking side losing 3mill value all ships killed defending side still in the red.

[BloodyButcher]

Originally Posted by Hunterrrr

The one with the best kill ships ofc zik.

I thought App was 100% xan more or less?

[Forest]

Are they that bad really?

Or do people just moan for the sake of it?

[Scott]

Zik are ridicilously over-powered. They are supposed to be a steal race.
All ziks pretty much have just clipper and maras.
Neither are steal ships.
Both shoot before the other ships.
So they're pretty much impossible to defend against, nevermind attack.

Xan is supposed to be quick shooting, weak, fast ships.
Zik shoots first.

[BloodyButcher]

Originally Posted by Scott

Zik are ridicilously over-powered. They are supposed to be a steal race.
All ziks pretty much have just clipper and maras.
Neither are steal ships.
Both shoot before the other ships.
So they're pretty much impossible to defend against, nevermind attack.

Xan is supposed to be quick shooting, weak, fast ships.
Zik shoots first.

We how ever knew this before the round started, and shouldve picked races accordingly.
Tia got no clue what the "original" stats looked like, ie in ter you got Harpy as a CO, and Phoenix as a FI, wich for me just sounds stupid as originaly it was the other way around.

[lokken]

This is like Real Madrid complaining they are losing to Rotherham because of the pitch.

[Scott]

Not really Lokken. I've pretty much not been able to land attacks or even defend without losing a lot of value because of the race I chose.

Fair point that the stats are given before round so effectively I could have known that xan would suck.

But stats are difficult to understand without actually using them. It's just all numbers on a page to me. I have neither the time nor the skills to be able to work out what race is good and what race is bad. Especially as every round there are completely different stats, so I would need to do this before every round.

Lets see xans DE fleet for example...

Ter has 1 ship that fires at the same time and one ship that shoots before bomber. Cant attack.

Cath have two two ships that fire before bomber, so unless you out number their value by more than 160% you cant attack them, and if they get anything in defence you're screwed. Cant attack.

Zik have one ship that fires before bombers. You really cant attack a Zik, you cant even defend against them. Not even with fi. Maras and Clippers are very powerful and shoot first.

So, unless you do big waves with some emp pals, then you can only attack ETD. There's 50 ETDs in the game. Most are inactives or late starters.

So theres a maximum of 20 planets in the universe that I can attack solo.

[BloodyButcher]

Originally Posted by Scott

Not really Lokken. I've pretty much not been able to land attacks or even defend without losing a lot of value because of the race I chose.

Fair point that the stats are given before round so effectively I could have known that xan would suck.

But stats are difficult to understand without actually using them. It's just all numbers on a page to me. I have neither the time nor the skills to be able to work out what race is good and what race is bad. Especially as every round there are completely different stats, so I would need to do this before every round.

Lets see xans DE fleet for example...

Ter has 1 ship that fires at the same time and one ship that shoots before bomber. Cant attack.

Cath have two two ships that fire before bomber, so unless you out number their value by more than 160% you cant attack them, and if they get anything in defence you're screwed. Cant attack.

Zik have one ship that fires before bombers. You really cant attack a Zik, you cant even defend against them. Not even with fi. Maras and Clippers are very powerful and shoot first.

So, unless you do big waves with some emp pals, then you can only attack ETD. There's 50 ETDs in the game. Most are inactives or late starters.

So theres a maximum of 20 planets in the universe that I can attack solo.

I dont know what alliance you are in, but i suppose its Apprime.
Very very very few rounds enables to option on going only one race.
Thats why alliance set up their race strategy according to the stats, so they can actualy can put up some half decent attacks with mixing diffrent races.

[Scott]

Stats shouldn't depend alliances. As a solo player, you should at the very least be able to defend yourself against some planets in the universe. I cannot self cover myself against any race without being -value. Heavy -value at that.

Anyway, i'm not just moaning for the sake of it.

What i'm wonder is, when this set of stats was made, did anyone from PA team actually check them? Is there some vetting process for stats?

I know there used to be beta testing for stats, but it's been a while since i've played so i'm not sure if that still happens?

[Paisley]

Tia has made the stats on several occasions and should allow other folk to have a go. on topic Im glad to see spore on top.

[Mzyxptlk]

Originally Posted by BloodyButcher

I thought App was 100% xan more or less?

Assuming I wasn't lied to, Apprime went Xan to troll, then suddenly everyone started playing seriously. And now they're screwed.

Originally Posted by BloodyButcher

Tia got no clue what the "original" stats looked like, ie in ter you got Harpy as a CO, and Phoenix as a FI, wich for me just sounds stupid as originaly it was the other way around.

The way the ships were names is not exactly the most pressing of issues.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk

Assuming I wasn't lied to, Apprime went Xan to troll, then suddenly everyone started playing seriously. And now they're screwed.

Apprime did go xan to troll. This part is true, relaxed round. The part about us taking it seriously is far from accurate. We've inited like 80% of our roids this round, hardly anyone has put much effort in since a week after the round started, when we realised that the stats are so fail.

[BloodyButcher]

Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk

Assuming I wasn't lied to, Apprime went Xan to troll, then suddenly everyone started playing seriously. And now they're screwed.


The way the ships were names is not exactly the most pressing of issues.

Well Scott just mentioned a few of the Things xan should be good for.
Now, look at zik.
Their EMP res is as good as ter ships.(zik FR as emp resitant as ter FR)
Their effeciency is as good as any xan ships basicly(look at ghosts to clippers)
They prefire most attack fleets basicly(FI/(CO)/FR/DE)

I think names is a pressing issue, as this is something that people know from round to round, this does not change.
Same with the races, its not just to make it look tactical interesting, its keeping some of the heart and soul of PA post r6.

[Blue_Esper]

Originally Posted by Scott

Stats shouldn't depend alliances. As a solo player, you should at the very least be able to defend yourself against some planets in the universe. I cannot self cover myself against any race without being -value. Heavy -value at that.

Anyway, i'm not just moaning for the sake of it.

What i'm wonder is, when this set of stats was made, did anyone from PA team actually check them? Is there some vetting process for stats?

I know there used to be beta testing for stats, but it's been a while since i've played so i'm not sure if that still happens?

i believe a lot of complaints were made before the round about the stats, but the changes made, made things worse, like the targetting of etd removing the co targetting from the emp ship and allowing fireblades to be OP for example effectively nullifying DE as a viable attacking option

[lokken]

This is priceless. If you know the stats are unbalanced, pick the obvious race or stop complaining about it. If you want to complain about the stats (I have no view on if they are any good), this forum doesn't see nearly enough action: http://pirate.planetarion.com/forumdisplay.php?f=5

[Scott]

Originally Posted by lokken

This is priceless. If you know the stats are unbalanced, pick the obvious race or stop complaining about it. If you want to complain about the stats (I have no view on if they are any good), this forum doesn't see nearly enough action: http://pirate.planetarion.com/forumdisplay.php?f=5

I signed up two days after the round started after not having played for over a year. I had no idea about the stats when I signed up.

Also, this is a mid round sum up thread and i'm summing up the round so far from my point of view.

But i've said what I wanted, so people can carry on talking about round 18 now.

[BloodyButcher]

Originally Posted by Blue_Esper

i believe a lot of complaints were made before the round about the stats, but the changes made, made things worse, like the targetting of etd removing the co targetting from the emp ship and allowing fireblades to be OP for example effectively nullifying DE as a viable attacking option

Its like, 30 xan planets within the top6 alliances, when you look away from App that is all xan, how is this a big problem?
DE is extremly OP if you look at it this way.

[Blue_Esper]

Originally Posted by BloodyButcher

Its like, 30 xan planets within the top6 alliances, when you look away from App that is all xan, how is this a big problem?
DE is extremly OP if you look at it this way.

thats great! and rather irrelevant. De is awful. it just plain sucks and is easy to stop, hence why no one chose it as an alliance strategy ship of note

[BloodyButcher]

Originally Posted by Blue_Esper

thats great! and rather irrelevant. De is awful. it just plain sucks and is easy to stop, hence why no one chose it as an alliance strategy ship of note

A ETD/XAN DE combo is hard to stop.
Im sure a XP strat with ETD and XAN de would be a decent option this round.

[Blue_Esper]

de combo gets raped by BS def/fireblade def/and gets a hiding with when you send some vipers with som co mixes

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by BloodyButcher

A ETD/XAN DE combo is hard to stop.
Im sure a XP strat with ETD and XAN de would be a decent option this round.

Do you even look at things before you type? I mean seriously how would xan/etd de ever have been a great combo??

For arguments sakes lets say that atleast one of the main alliances had chosen this path. They would never have got to tick start without it being leaked so every other alliance would have made sure it had a raft of xan defwhores pumping fireblades. Instantly DE cant land. The phoenix/viper/cutlass and spirit are actually all really good vs DE aswell, mainly cos the lich is t2 and the reaper is weak as piss. So no DE would never have landed with these stats, anyone with half a brain knew that the second Tia said 'final'. Secondly ETD gets raped all over the park by everything, its probably the worst incarnation of the ETD race i have seen since i started playing, it is so bad it is basically non existent in this round.

Please stop making out you are some kind of stat and strat guru because it is starting to wear thin.

All anyone needed to know when the round started was that Tia made the stats. This instantly means that Zik will be ridiculously OP, that Cath EMP will be all over the place and that Ter would be a decent lazy play option.

Tia doesnt like Xan so he has never made them decent in any stat set he has offered up (used or not) and he doesnt have the ability to 'balance' 5 races.

[Hunterrrr]

Wu f*** up we didnt check the stats before round just decided to go all xan. De even with etd is a piece of shit.

Zik which is supposed to be a steal race has 3 low init kill ships

[lokken]

Thread moved to SD by popular demand as it was wildly offtopic.

[bass]

I agree with Blue_esper, this is not the first time Tia has made horrifically bad and boring stats. No point arguing about these stats now, but lets make sure that guy never gets to make stats again please?

[Scott]

There's 3 different FR/DE ships that target CR t1 and CO t2,

This is very strange to me.

Name Class T1 T2
Chimera Frigate Bs - - Norm 6
Gryphon Frigate Co Cr - Norm 6

Terran, I don't understand by Chim don't target BS and CR and Gryp just target CO. I think this is the strangest one. Only reason I could see is to force Ter to buy more ships of a different type.


Thief Frigate Cr Co - Steal 19
Clipper Frigate Fi - - Norm 5

Zik, I think Thief should steal Fi/Co and Clipper target CR as fire ship.

I'm not gonna include ETDs random targetting because there's not many planets.

[isildurx]

Maras and Clippers are too good, apart from that the stats aren't too awful.

[BloodyButcher]

Originally Posted by isildurx

Maras and Clippers are too good, apart from that the stats aren't too awful.

They arnt too good. It comes with a price forting your gals and putting res into three diffrent classes.
These stats a perfectly fine, and the top 20 planet race mix is what was to be expected.

[isildurx]

How is clippers not OP? It is 100% impossible to not loose a ****ton in def without emp def. Their eff is way too high with that early init

One xan in t20, clearly what's expected!

[BloodyButcher]

Originally Posted by isildurx

How is clippers not OP? It is 100% impossible to not loose a ****ton in def without emp def. Their eff is way too high with that early init

One xan in t20, clearly what's expected!

Both harpy, corsairs, spirits. marauders and wyvs prefire zik FR

[Kaiba]

But only corsairs and spirits pre fire it at t1 and both are underbuilt ships due to ETD not being used and the OPness of Mara's for self cover.

Tbh what you are missing bitcher is that it is no longer about Ziks attacking power, its about how nobody can land and really hasnt without a massive OTT on value. Fr is just WAY WAY to buffed. Tia knew this when he made them and i would take a sizeable bet that Tia is a Zik FR player in a fence/fort this round just value stacking his way towards the t20 (if he isnt already there).

[Kaiba]

If i was you Isil i would make your set so that nobody can land clean on anybody, when is a battle ever 100% successful for one side. Knocking down Cath EMP effs so they take a small loss at least on any battle would be a good start. Make this game bloody again, so we can get away from the protection of value at all costs.

[BloodyButcher]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

But only corsairs and spirits pre fire it at t1 and both are underbuilt ships due to ETD not being used and the OPness of Mara's for self cover.

Tbh what you are missing bitcher is that it is no longer about Ziks attacking power, its about how nobody can land and really hasnt without a massive OTT on value. Fr is just WAY WAY to buffed. Tia knew this when he made them and i would take a sizeable bet that Tia is a Zik FR player in a fence/fort this round just value stacking his way towards the t20 (if he isnt already there).

These stats are war stats.
The problem is the smaller tags this round not needing to take any losses to suceed at their goals.
We need bigger tags, not diffrent stats

[Tiamat101]

This is my planet this round:
http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=3wutehwfkpker8w

Zik is NOT as strong as yo make it out to be, they are HOWEVER strong vs xan. Using my planet as an example let me show you some things.

http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=zcyf6d70hpuej6r

This is an easy one to see Oh look the zik fr attack fleet *OP* is stopped by 2 basic def ships, but wait theres more!

http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=qkros6z5s15re3t

Another 2 basic def ships both Co... Hmmm lets see so and I bet that if you swap any of those 4 def fleets around you cover the call. So the ENTIRE CO class stops zik fr. Whats missing Oh right XAN.... Hmm I wonder if I made that on purpose, and I wonder if App hadn't decided to troll that they wouldn't be complaining all over this board.

Lets take a look at cr for zik, now I didnt build that many so ill extrapilate what a fleet would look like if i had.

http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=6psqvz7yask70xo


The weakness that I gave to zik Cr is BS and Lich and the fact that it hits Fr at a quite LOW eff.
http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=ftasd7s5hbdktc0

So when you try and tell me that Zik is very strong think again, they are Strong vs the STRATS that you guys picked.
http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=53fmo35wzhfoeuk

Had you decided to go Etd since they are designed to beat Zik you would have had a much better time playing in a round that favors Fr in at least 3 of the allys.

So next time you actually want to say something shitty about a set of stats back your attacks up with some evidence and some proff before you just shoot your mouth because you couldn't play xan fi and rape the universe. There are many things that you don't take into account in your little brain. Like that Cat Co RAPES all over zik with both co and cr and there is nothing that a zik/ter fr based ally can do to stop cat Co except use pre-launch def of in gal def.

[Blue_Esper]

no one went etd cos DE and BS suck ass.
and in terms of post. Zik has never been a solo'ing race unless its vs cath

[vuLgAr]

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

so what your telling me is, if i don't plan out a strategy and just go any race it becomes my fault that you made shit stats?

hello all you new players that accidentily chose xan! having fun yet? Tia says you should have been one of the 6 active etd's in the uni instead...

trolololo

[tobbe]

So next time you actually want to say something shitty about a set of stats back your attacks up with some evidence and some proff before you just shoot your mouth because you couldn't play xan fi and rape the universe..

So ur saying xan is unplayable because they didnt go cath or etd.

Stats were shit.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

This is my planet this round:
http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=3wutehwfkpker8w

Zik is NOT as strong as yo make it out to be, they are HOWEVER strong vs xan. Using my planet as an example let me show you some things.

http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=zcyf6d70hpuej6r

This is an easy one to see Oh look the zik fr attack fleet *OP* is stopped by 2 basic def ships, but wait theres more!

http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=qkros6z5s15re3t

Another 2 basic def ships both Co... Hmmm lets see so and I bet that if you swap any of those 4 def fleets around you cover the call. So the ENTIRE CO class stops zik fr. Whats missing Oh right XAN.... Hmm I wonder if I made that on purpose, and I wonder if App hadn't decided to troll that they wouldn't be complaining all over this board.

Lets take a look at cr for zik, now I didnt build that many so ill extrapilate what a fleet would look like if i had.

http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=6psqvz7yask70xo


The weakness that I gave to zik Cr is BS and Lich and the fact that it hits Fr at a quite LOW eff.
http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=ftasd7s5hbdktc0

So when you try and tell me that Zik is very strong think again, they are Strong vs the STRATS that you guys picked.
http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=53fmo35wzhfoeuk

Had you decided to go Etd since they are designed to beat Zik you would have had a much better time playing in a round that favors Fr in at least 3 of the allys.

So next time you actually want to say something shitty about a set of stats back your attacks up with some evidence and some proff before you just shoot your mouth because you couldn't play xan fi and rape the universe. There are many things that you don't take into account in your little brain. Like that Cat Co RAPES all over zik with both co and cr and there is nothing that a zik/ter fr based ally can do to stop cat Co except use pre-launch def of in gal def.

Your bcalcs I notice have two different races in defence and you've used a specific defence fleet to kill the attacker. Of course this is gonna ensure you don't land.

Nevermind the values of those defence fleets are quite high considering they're not one of those races main ships. 500k value is a lot of value to have in one ship that isn't in the attack fleet.

[Scott]

Xan DE against Ter BS

http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=88bupdfs3ahs03n

^ I don't think this is an unreasonably sized fleet, from the few scans I did of some terrans between ranks 100-200 this is generally their BS fleet.

Xan against Cath
http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=yr2zgus65d0g69j

Again, this isnt even a big cath, it lands yes, but that's quite a high value xan DE fleet.

Xan DE v Zik

http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=ynd5dnru6g47eql

I didn't even need to put that really, we know xan against zik sucks bag (notice the xan has a high value in bombers, this isn't normal)

There's two things you can see from these calcs.

1) There is no defence

2) The planets getting attack by the xan, their fleets are their NORMAL attacking fleets, they don't have to build extra ships to defend against a xan. Therefore the defending planets can just carry on building their attack fleets so have a very high value in that combined attack/defence fleet.


I wont do a bcalc against ETD because there are none.

[Tiamat101]

Scott

When i made these stats i decided that Xan was like MOST rounds is going to be weak vs cr/bs. I did however give them a way to stop ter bs. However Xan De can attack into other xans and Ziks w/o Hulls3 They also can attack into Cath(duh all races can attack cath) Also can attack into Etd(none present) However both mara and wyvern yes stop you. Xan De with the CURRENT races distribution as it is sucks.

However Xan fi can attack Ter/Cath/Etd/Xan the only race they cant attack is zik and if teamed with cat Co they can attack anything quite effectively.

So yes I am sorry you did not enjoy this round. Is it because the stats that I made are shitty no, its because you decided to place a race and strat that wasnt going to work in the current meta. Had you done your homework correctly you'd have seen a strong % of zik/ter/cat at the start of the round and said... Hmm one of those races is hard to attack with fi and 2 of them are hard to attack with De maybe I should go something different.


My point earlier was to show that zik isnt the strongest fleet this round it may just look that way because I favor Zik over other races but its just as weak and strong as all of them. If you were really worried about Zik you would build your strat around stopping them by using what they target worst(Co/Bs).